Modern Family Life: Ever Wondered How Many Brothers & Sisters You Have?
I think we’d all agree that the consequences of the much lauded “sexual liberation” of recent decades has yet to be assessed in its full impact. As one mother said to me a couple of years ago, when the time comes that almost every family finds itself nursing an AIDS sufferer, or a family member with some other sexually transmitted disease, people just might begin to realise that the “sexual liberation” of the Swinging Sixties era is not all it was cracked up to be.
The truth of this was brought home to me recently when a couple of friends contacted me, in shock, to tell me about another consequence of the “do as you please” immorality prevalent in our times. One friend from days of yore was stunned to discover that one of her several siblings was, in fact, the product of an affair between her mother and another man. The child was adopted into the family, thanks to the forgiving, although devastated, husband, father of my friend.
Another friend spoke of being stunned on discovering that he has a sister of whom he knew nothing until a few days ago – this time because of an affair between his father and another woman.
This, I believe, is a snapshot of what lies in store for many families in the years ahead. Illicit affairs, and casual intimacy, with offspring who may never know the identity of their fathers, with siblings all over the place unknown to one another – or about whom they only learn in adulthood. And the more commonplace these situations become, the less they will shock. Relativism into nihilism: we’ve fast moved from thinking that things are only wrong in relation to certain other factors, to not knowing right from wrong at all.
Am I alone in lamenting this dreadful state of (literally) affairs?
And just as I’ve been hearing these “family secrets”, I’ve also been hearing from parents who are worried about the Scottish Government’s proposals to allocate a State Guardian to every child. Think about it. The same politicians who have created, either directly or by their complicity, the current moral chaos around us, want to have the final say in how children are raised by their parents. Crazy. All ideas on what parents can do to stop this latest political interference in family life, welcome.
Talk to me.
Comments (92)
Without a doubt these situations are a result of abandoning God’s law. A lot of people claim that the laws of God made explicit through the teaching of the Church is a “killjoy” for demanding that all sexual activities be within marriage and open to the transmission of life, but one only has to look at the broken families to see that the Church demands this in order to protect us. Catholic marriage works. I wish people would stop thinking they know better than God.
Petrus,
You are right. Without a doubt people have abandoned God and they call the Church “a killjoy” as if human beings in the Church made up the rules about marriage and family life. I completely agree with you.
Reading that post, I think things are getting much worse. It is unbelievable that people can suddenly discover a brother or a sister that they didn’t know even existed. How are young people to know right from wrong if that is the example set by their parents?
It is becoming very clear that only the Consecration of Russia will put things right in the world and the Church. I pray that Pope Francis comes to see that very soon.
About the Scottish Government planning a State Guardian for every child – I hope parents protest against this. If Cardinal O’Brien was right to call sex education a form of “child abuse” it can’t be right for the people who push the sex-ed to be appointing guardians for children. They already have guardians – their parents. I do hope Catholic parents refuse to allow their children to be exposed to this government interference.
We must pray hard to Our Lady of Fatima.
This is an inevitable consequence of society rejecting God in favour of self-satisfaction, unbridled humanism. Unquestionably a child conceived out of wedlock or as a consequence of adultery is deeply troubling, however of greater dismay is the certainty that many others will have been brutally murdered in the womb, a diabolical fall deeper into serious sin emergent from the initial occasion of sin and deferring the difficult but relatively modest human penance to the immortal peril of the soul(s). The culture of death indeed.
Recent attacks on marriage will only advance what has been a progressive deterioration of the state of society since at least the sixties, its most basic building block having been hammered on from all angles. Perhaps Catholics have been more insulated from this than average, but the debauchery of many wealthy types has been well in evidence too in the workless benefits underclass, in the absence of any adverse societal consequences. Whereas generation 1 and 2 of this fractured living may have had the stability of parents/grandparents to call upon in extremis, increasingly there is no such rudder or safety net to reference and like vestiges of Christianity, is now not even a distant recollection for the younger generations – they literally have no family as we know it – a devastating success of the dictatorship of relativism and its socialist ethos.
The Michael Voris video today is about God and Hell and reading this post I think society is going to Hell in a handcart. As Petrus said “without a doubt these situations are a result of abandoning God’s law”. The logical consequence of abandoning God’s law is Hell. This short film spells it out very well, because it shows how this leads to hating God and actually choosing Hell. The only thing that I find a little puzzling is that if being in Hell is what these souls want and they wouldn’t be happy in God’s presence, which is what Michael Voris says, then wouldn’t Hell be a place of actual happiness for them? I tend to think that it is the regret they experience on seeing God and rejecting him is what causes them pain as well as the physical torments.
I meant to say that my heart goes out to the people mentioned in the post who discovered “illegitimate” brothers and sisters. However, as well as the shock, there might have been some kind of excitement at having a new brother or sister?
I echo what Petrus said. Modern secular people have lost any semblence of a proper understanding of human sexuality and its responsible practice.
The Catholic Church is the only institution which has a proper, mature and realistic approach to human sexuality. Secular society has a simple “do as you please” approach, one which leads to lives being blighted by disease, or unwanted lives being destroyed in the womb. (of course, the protestants prefer to stay out of it, preferring to be left alone to their coffee mornings and tombola).
Recently, the US Government Centre for Disease Control forecast that – at current infection rates – >50% of US homosexual men will have HIV in approx 30 years. This is already the case in San Francisco – an epicentre of sodomy – and it will eventually be the case in the UK and all western societies, wherever perversion is tolerated.
Additionally, there have been several news articles recently (from liberal-left sources, such as the Guardian) demanding that attitudes to HIV change – indeed “must” change.
Its quite clear that the way ahead holds a massively increased prevalence of HIV and that the powers-that-be and opinion formers, already know that the much vaunted condoms will NOT stop this sceneario playing out over the coming decades.
Hence their tactic is simply to pretend HIV is not a problem anymore, instead of admitting that their entire approach to sexuality is wrong.
But attitudes to HIV shouldnt change. After all, HIV has not changed. It is still an incurable disease, sufferers still require aggressive daily medication to stay alive* and it still shortens the lives of those who contract it.
(* Archbishop Tartaglia was heavily criticised recently for linking the early death of a homosexual man (David Cairns, an MP) with his sexuality. Mr Cairns homosexual friend vaguely claimed he died from “pancreatitis” – however acute pancreatitis is a side effect of the strong anti-viral drugs used to treat HIV. And statistics show that homosexuality and HIV go together like bread and jam. If Cairns didnt catch HIV via his disordered sexuality, the only other possibility behind his pancreatitis is that he was a severe alcoholic.)
Homosexuals no longer consider HIV a problem, because modern medicine can prolong the lives of sufferers to a duration approximating that of a normal life (though homosexual men still live for, on average, 20 years less than heterosexual men). However, this is an exceptionally selfish attitude, because it costs society £20 – 30,000 per annum to treat a single HIV patient. So, it IS a big problem.
The worst thing about the irresponsible approaches to sexuality is that they can never admit they are wrong. Anyone can make a mistake, so if society said this “do as you please” thing is doing more harm than good, then that would be progress.
However, it seems people prefer fantasy and escapism, rather than facing the effects of their lifestyles. That homosexual people prefer to talk about “marriage” (an absurdity) or Russian laws shows this – its all just a smoke-screen to obscure the fact that their misusing their bodies is causing them to be gradually consumed by incurable disease.
If it wasnt so tragic, it would be funny.
Its also ridiculous that people claim the Church is “obsessed by sex” whenever it advocates a common sense, realistic approach to the matter. Secular society is saturated in sex and sexual imagery, yet they cannot see the wood for the trees.
At age 24 I received a phone call from a woman I’d never met before asking me to attend her wedding. “Have we met?” I asked. “I’m your sister,” she said. I’d heard that there was such a person, but there had been no contact. Our mutual father (whom I also had never met) had passed away, and the future bride was keen to have a full family (however one defines it) at the ceremony.
To Margaret Mary’s question, “there might have been some kind of excitement at having a new brother or sister” I can say that in my case it was not so: the whole matter was perplexing and upsetting – though I could see a case being made that my perception was affected by the way we were introduced, which was not ideal.
Even so, mine was a strange (though not uncommon) situation: one spends his life operating a certain set of assumptions in the way he thinks of himself, his family, and the world around him; to have all that abruptly turned upside-down is a big shock.
I was able to make the wedding – curiosity got the better of me. It was only the first wedding, alas: by age 30 she was on her fifth marriage; ten years on from that she’s single, can’t figure out men, and loathes children. He who has ears to hear…
WurdeSmythe,
What an amazing story. I can well understand the curiosity you felt, as I’d have been the same. I tend to think I would be very excited if I found I had another brother or sister, but then you don’t know. As you say, it must be a big shock to have your world suddenly turned upside down.
Another thing struck me reading your post at the end. Maybe your influence will help your sister to see the errors of her ways? That might be all part of the good that will come out of these terrible situations.
I never knew my father, he left before I was born. Before he met my mother, he had already divorced from his first wife and had a girl with her. He originally divorced because of an affair he had. After he left, my mum took him to court to recover child maintenance because he denied paternity. She won obviously: DNA doesn’t lie.
My mother had a child before me, my older brother, who I grew up knowing. His father left my mother before he was born. After having me she married a divorced man with three of his own children, my step-siblings. My mother went on to have two children with him, my younger brother and sister (who I also grew up knowing).
I tracked my father down and saw him for the first time in 2009, when I was 19. To do this I first had to contact his employer. His boss must have persuaded him to meet me. He met with me in a cafe in South Manchester and told me that he currently lived with a partner and had two young children with her, a boy and a girl in Staffordshire. We spoke for about an hour before he left.
A couple of weeks later I managed to contact my father’s sister, my aunt. I went to visit her and saw her for the first time at her home in Greater Manchester. She told me that apart from the two young children and partner in Staffordshire which he told me about, he also had an ex wife and three teenage boys in Southport Lancashire (which he didn’t tell me about).
So in the space of two weeks I found out about five siblings by other mothers which I hadn’t previously known about. My aunt also gave me the contact information for his ex-wife. I phoned her up. Her boys knew about me, probably because my father moved in with her before or shortly after I was born. His first child with her was conceived a month after I was born.
I didn’t contact his current partner. That would have been traumatic for her.
Because I now had the address, I did however go to visit the older half-sister I already knew about. She lived in South Manchester and we had never met. I turned up, explained myself to the step-father who answered the door. I met her. I asked her if she had ever heard about me and she said no.
So in total, father has seven children by four different woman, which we know of.
My father is a lapsed Catholic. He went to Manchester’s best Catholic boy’s grammar school and according to his sister, a one point wanted to become a priest.
My step father is a lapsed Catholic as well.
Forgot to mention, he used to work abroad, wink wink.
Miles Immaculatae,
I found your post absorbing. I hope you don’t mind if I ask this and if you don’t feel able to answer it in such a public forum I will not mind but do you feel that you have suffered any lasting mental (bad) effects from your situation?
I ask this because for a young person what you describe must have had a devastating impact.
Obvously I wouldn’t want to give too much away for the sake of my reputation, I don’t want people thinking I’m an unstable wreck!
I think I am fairly normal, but yes, I have experienced bad consequences, but only those that would naturally be expected. Certainly nothing that can’t be overcome. My mother came from a traditional nuclear family and she experienced a lot of cruelty. Which I didn’t really experience (or not much more than could be expected from the average step-father).
I was never in care, and I don’t have any criminal convictions. So I haven’t had it as bad as some people I know. Also, like other persons I know I have been declared completely sane by mental health professionals!
I am very sceptical about step families. I just don’t think they work.
Miles Immaculatae,
I know it’s a bit naughty to make jokes about this but, well, you just might find you get to enjoy holidays all over the world, for the price of a plane ticket!
The following comment was submitted by Arkenaten earlier – I accidentally permanently deleted it, but this is what she wrote:
Amazing! We can put a man on the moon, yet millions of babies die of Malaria. A bus load of Egyptian Police are hit by a rocket fired by an Islamic extremist.And you consider the moral fibre of humanity is linked to sex outside marriage or extra-marital affairs? Odd…..
Note: Arkenaten is a professed atheist. Thus, we do not expect her to hold the same views as we do. What we DO expect, however, is that she meets with a measured and good humoured, albeit robust response. If this does not come naturally to you, and/or you don’t have the necessary communication skills, don’t respond, please and thank you.
Arkenaten,
Of course babies dying of Malaria is tragic. Similarly, of course we deplore the acts of terrorists. However, these things don’t detract from the seriousness of broken families.
I think the hurt caused by sex outside marriage or extra marital affairs is enough to tell us these things are wrong. When marriage is abandoned in favour of “alternative” lifestyles it only leads to a trail of devastation.
Arkenaten,
I can understand why you think like that. If people see the things reported in the news that you mention, millions dying of Malaria, bombs killing policemen in Egypt, etc. then it must seem strange to meet people who think the loose morality of recent years is all that important, especially if you don’t even believe in God.
However, it is obviously an important issue. Look at the Irish couple who met and felt attracted to each other, eventually wanted to marry. Then they discovered they were brother and sister. That has all kinds of implications. Multiply that sort of situation across society and we find that we don’t know who is related to who and I think it is a very serious situation.
I’d be interested to know what you think your feelings would be if you found you had another brother or sister that you didn’t know about, if you thought you were living in a home with a mum and dad who loved each other and had brought a few children into the world, all a happy enough family – then discovered, out of the blue, that one of your parents had another child with someone else. Your whole security would be threatened, don’t you agree?
Also, it sends a signal to the children of the marriage that “these things happen” and so they become de-sensitized, so that infidelity and adultery are no big deal any more. All sorts of questions to do with personal identity arise. I think the problem of drugs and alcohol abuse is maybe linked to these issues. Young people don’t know who they are any more, or what is right and what is wrong, if even their own parents or other close relatives have affairs and are unfaithful to their marriage and family commitment.
Do you really not think that is important, especially since it’s not a one-off we are talking about, but a pattern across society? Can you see any serious ramifications that would cause you to be concerned even a little bit? I’d really be interested in your views on this. To be honest, I would have thought that this was one time when atheists and religious people could agree, about the damage to society due to family breakdown.
Arkenaten,
I don’t quite understand your logic. Yes, those things you mention are tragic, but they don’t detract from the seriousness of bizarre family situations.
The trail of devastation caused by sex outside marriage/extra marital affairs speaks for itself. When you depart from sex within a marriage you descend into a world of selfishness and hurt. I have never seen a sexual relationship outside marriage that didn’t lead to hurt. Never.
Comment removed
Editor writes:
Prionsais,
I approved Arkenaten’s comment and released it from moderation. I have instructed those who either do not possess the patience (or who lack the necessary communication skills) to respond in a good humoured way, not to respond. I am therefore not at all pleased to find that you have ignored that instruction, and, despite not having responded to any other post on the thread, now respond in a nasty way to Arkenaten. I am unimpressed and given the notable lack of responses from you overall on this blog, I am inclined to think you are being a troublemaker. Please prove me wrong.
You can begin by not responding to any posts on any topic on this blog, unless you do so in a spirit of Catholic charity. It is not for you to decide the disposition of anyone’s soul. If I release Arkenaten’s posts for publication, then they are considered suitable for discussion. Nobody is obliged to respond to her but anyone who has not read or who will not accept our blogging policy, is instructed NOT to respond. Put simply, if you don’t like the rules here, blog somewhere else.
Thank you.
I believe the key to grasping Arkenaten’s point is to recognize his underlying assumption: to wit, that sexual misconduct is no big deal. Grave interior faults don’t seem to interest him so much as dramatic things that are easy to visualize like rockets (whether for travel or demolition) and babies with malaria. I suppose if there were more people who made others suffer for their personal lapses in self-control (e.g. Henry VIII) the point raised by Editor might be an easier notion to grasp. Then again, STDs and AIDS, quick divorce, teenage pregnancy, rampant infidelity and the attendant depression, alcoholism and drug use, and suicide do seem to have at least a plausible chance of being recognized as visible bad outcomes, even in a permissive age like ours. No?
Wurdesmythe,
Excellent points. I do believe that the drug and alcohol abuse problems are widely recognised as having their roots in social deprivation, but, unfortunately, sexual promiscuity is not often acknowledged as part of that deprivation, by the powers-that-be. There’s too much money and ideology invested in the sex-education and related trades, for the Government and affiliated agencies to “fess up” and start again.
Still, there are people, including atheists in my experience, who are concerned at the breakdown in “relationships” – the inability, it seems, of just about anyone to make a long-term (let alone a lifelong) commitment to another person.
By the way, for the record, Arkenaten is a “she” – a mother of two, apparently.
Arkenaten,
I agree with what Jacinta and Petrus say, though I can understand why you think as you do. Yes, many children do die of malaria. Islamic terrorists do kill by bombings or any other means and the tragedy knows no bounds.
Extra marital affairs or sex outside marriage does have consequences and the effects can cause all sorts of problems. Was it Jacinta who said of the couple who were considering marriage only to discover they were brother and sister. What would be the possibility if any children born from that union having physical defects?
Who is to say that such a thing could not happen?
There are those who discover siblings, half brothers or sisters they never knew they had. Sometimes I wonder if people can distinguish between love and lust.
This is a link of Pope Pius XI (1922-1939) encyclical on sexual matters. It is quite long, but I wonder what you make of it. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html
Out of curiosity I had googled to find when the last man/men actually landed on the moon. It was December 1972. Now was Apollo 15 or Apollo 17? Forty one years ago, that’s nearly as old as I am.
Theresa Rose
“Forty one years ago, that’s nearly as old as I am.”
You wish!
STERALIZATION – is it ever justified? Recently on the news there has been mention of a ‘mentally deficient’ young man having fathered a child with an equally ‘mentally deficient’ young woman. One of the families want the man steralized so that it can’t happen again.
I do know of another family with a girl who is ‘mentally deficient’ and she has been impregnated twice by two different men – neither of whom are around – and her widowed Father (now in his 70’s) is having to cope!
Apparently, these people with mental problems are VERY PROMISCOUS by nature, and nowadays all the Mental Homes are closed. So, what to do with them? I know the Church is against steralization, but in these cases, surely it would be for the best.
Yorkshire Rose
I’m interested that you chose this thread for your question, which is really more suited to the General Discussion thread. Since there’s a certain comic element, we’ll let it stand, although I think any relationship to this topic is tenuous, to say the least.
Yes, I do see your point. However, sexual promiscuity has been mentioned, and the terrible problems that it causes. Well, with ESN people (as they used to be called), promiscuity is commonplace. I have this from an old-fashioned Matron who knew her stuff. So, what on earth can be done about it.
Nowadays, anyone with mental problems – whether they be illnesses or inherent defects – are supposed to remain in ‘the community’. Mental Homes are all closed and when the parents of such people become elderly they simply cannot cope. If these persons cannot be put into some kind of care home and segregated, then steralization may be the only solution. They are unlikely to become responsible parents, able to work and provide for any offspring, so what is to be done?
Yorkshire Rose,
That’s eugenics. If it is allowed to sterilize mentally ill people, why not other groups of people. The British statistics for teenage pregnancies is very high – at one time highest in Europe (not sure if that is still the case).
That’s a dangerous road to go down. Something else should be done to help the mentally ill if they are promiscuous. Lots of people are promiscuous so that’s not a reason to sterilize. I doubt very much if the Church would allow it on moral grounds. If it’s wrong to contracept it’s surely wrong for everyone including the mentally impaired.
Exactly, Josephine. If sterilization is not immoral, not an evil in itself, then it can be used to prevent pregnancy in other groups – teenagers would be a prime target!
Listen. If the Scottish Government thinks intelligent parents require a State Guardian to “protect” their children, let them come up with a scheme to help the mentally impaired to learn how to control themselves, build good relationships and marry if they choose. I’ve not had time to check, but what’s the bet that the mentally disabled, like the kids in primary school (and even nursery) are subject to the “sex-education” programmes which lead to promiscuity in the first place? I’m sure promiscuity isn’t an integral part of mental impairment.
Yorkshire Rose, beware of the propagandist news reports on this (as on everything else).
My gut reaction is that this cannot be right. If there’s a sound Catholic moral theologian out there who says the Church teaches otherwise, I will stand corrected, albeit open-mouthed.
After all, there’s clearly been something wrong in the mental processes of the parents we’ve heard about on this thread who thought little, if anything, of indulging in affairs and producing offspring as a result. Should THEY have been sterilized? Where does “society” (usually individual judges in courts) draw the line?
It reminds me of those American eugenicists who went around the country forcibly sterilising those who were deemed undesirable, for example people with mental health problems.
After World War II and the terror Naziism the Americans dropped their pro-eugenic stance and pretended it never happened.
Well, I don’t disagree with any of those comments. As mentioned, however, an old-fashioned Matron who worked with these people in the early days of the NHS did say that they tend to be very promiscuous. I daresay they are given sex-ed info and expected to use contraception. Well, without supervision and care, they often forget to take their own medication, so that’s not going to work.
Proper care homes with dedicated staff would cost a fortune, and that’s not going to happen nowadays. Just look at elderly care at present – one scandal after another – and hospitals as well. Religious community care would be the best answer, but is that likely?
If the attitude of society to promiscuity changed to being right thinking, then all these side issues would fall into place. People with learning disabilities or Special Needs as they’re now called, are only mimicking what they see is acceptable for everyone else. Why should they be different?
Editor
Thanks for your response. I can assure you I won’t bother you again. I have accepted your
magazine in my house totally against my family’s wishes so I will make them happy now also.
It’s a bit of a joke a sanction from someone like you who jumps down the throat of anyone who has an opinion of their own. By the way, sorry Arkenaten.
Ed: I’m going to release this post for this reason: it is typical of those who throw their toys out of the pram when they don’t get away with breaking the rules. Why you take our newsletter written by “someone like me” (whom you clearly disdain and do not respect, as evidenced by your contempt for my requests not to respond to Arkenaten if you cannot do so courteously) is a mystery in the first place. If you don’t want to receive the newsletter, email me and I’ll remove your name from our list.
But before you disappear into the sunset, just answer me this question. What would YOU do if you were administrator of this Catholic blog and several bloggers persistently ignored your polite requests to not engage with a blogger whom THEY (you) themselves regard as a “troll”. Tell me – what would YOU do? Cos I’m fresh out of ideas. I do not want nastiness on this blog and for that crime I am castigated. Too bad. I had to close down this blog once before due to nastiness from Catholics towards atheists and I won’t do so again. I’d sooner do without the kind of Catholics who are so free with their opinion that every soul is precious blah blah until they come across a soul whom they decide is beyond redemption, too much hard work. Gimme a break. The Catholic Truth team does not want to have people on here being nasty to atheists or anyone else. Different if individuals choose to ignore them – no problem with that, just don’t tell me when you think it’s time for me to blacklist them. I will make that decision if and when I choose to do so. The very idea that an atheist would be subjected to the kind of nastiness I’ve witnessed here, is unthinkable. Now, if you wish to blog and offer your thoughts on the topics, go ahead. Just don’t lurk in the shadows awaiting an opportunity to cause trouble. If I’ve misinterpreted your position, take it as read that I apologise. But there’s only one way to prove me wrong, and throwing your rattle out of the pram is not that way. Try telling the administrator of any other blog out there, Catholic or not, how to run his blog and see what kind of response you get. I can hear the screams already..
Editor,
I couldn’t agree more. Charity is very important on the blog and nastiness cannot produce good fruits.
Have you actually read what I am being accused of? No, I thought not so please don’ t make any wild judgements. These accusations against me are liable to the extreme and I am certainly not going to lie down to them.
This is not a wee quiet priest whom you are all discussing now.
Ed: Prionsais,
I don’t actually understand your post – I don’t recall accusing you of anything and I don’t see us “discussing any wee quiet priest now” (are there any “wee quiet priests”?!)
However, allow me to apologise for offending you in any way, which is never my intention. I’d appreciate now if we could let this matter drop, so as not to pile up comments on the blog which are really only meant as a criticism of my unworthy self – feel free to do that by email. In the meantime, you are welcome to participate in our discussions. Thank you & God bless.
It’s not OK to sterilize anyone.
Scottish Priest,
How judgmental ! I’m shocked !
In the States, nursing homes for the indigent, disabled, and elderly are factories for STDs – it’s a common problem that I presume exists in other countries, though I haven’t looked beyond my own border to confirm. Staff is inclined to just snicker and look the other way when nursing home residents are out for a romp, which goes to my earlier point about lapses in self-control being viewed by society in general as simply no big deal. If people were of a mind to address the problem, is expensive high-tech gadgetry the way to go? Perhaps it would have a place; more mundane solutions like separate dormitories, floors, or wings with monitored access points could probably reduce a number of problems. But first the problem would need to be recognized as such. The children, just to be clear, are not the problem; they do not need to be solved.
ATHIEST BLOGGERS. Could I suggest this solution maybe. When they pop up and start ‘throwing rocks’ at us, I feel that we should ‘return fire’ by prayer. Even one Hail Mary well said could convert a soul. So, if say, there are five anti-Catholic comments, then five Hail Marys are said, and so on. Our weapons are much more powerful than theirs!
St. Margaret Clitherow would approve, I think.
Definitely, Wordesmythe, St Margaret Clitherow would approve of praying for and treating with charity, those who imagine themselves to be atheists. We know that God has implanted a seed in every soul which will lead us ultimately to Him. Thanks Yorkshire Rose for your edifying suggestions. I’m not even going to give you 100 lines for going off topic!
Indeed, I’ll round off this off topic diversion by reporting briefly that I watched a tape of Sunday Morning Live last weekend and broadcaster, Lowri Turner was on the panel, describing herself as an atheist. Throughout the discussions (there were three topics) I found myself agreeing with every word, more or less, that she said. I’ve heard her before and had written her off as a mad liberal but she didn’t come across that way at all last Sunday.
Then, towards the end of the show, the fiercely anti-Catholic self-proclaimed atheist Kate Smurthwaite spoke on the phone on one of the topics. Commenting afterwards, Lowri Turner suggested that Kate’s black & white anti-religion views were possibly a “generational thing” – that she, Lowri, did not rule out…. in the future… trailed off.
Clearly, she is now more open to religious ideas and claims that she was last time I heard her speak on TV. When that time comes, for her to review the claims of the various religions, I hope and pray that nobody she has encountered from the Catholic Church treated her in such a manner that she discounts Catholicism. On the panel with her, a Hindu gentleman: she actually turned to him and remarked, jovially, that she might look again at Hinduism, so impressed was she by him and his account of his faith.
We really must not forget that God works in souls – even the souls of alleged trolls – but not to order. In His own time. All we have to do is take care not to hamper the workings of His grace.
I’m already looking through my wardrobe for something to wear at Arkenaten’s reception into the Church. I demand an invite!
Well, as a convert herself, she would indeed. So, perhaps a ‘Posy of Prayers’ for the recent lady (Arkenarten) would be in order. Perhaps this poor soul is looking for God and, having crossed our path, can now be helped. Anyone like to join me?
From me: 1 Hail Mary said today at 5pm.
Yorkshire Rose
I wasn’t here to be on the blog at 5pm, but nevertheless a Hail Mary no matter how late will never go ammiss.
St Margaret Clitherow as a convert and also a martyr for the Catholic faith would agree with that.
I do not know if this will make it onto your blog as I’ve been locked in unarmed combat with WordPress on and off for hours now. Anyway, I have looked in here from time to time and come across some very useful links for which I am grateful.
On state interference in family life I watched the youtube presentation of a conference on Catholic education in France where things are moving apace. It seems that in state schools all books referring to normal relations between men and women and gender stereotypes are being removed from schools and replaced by “daddy wears a dress” and “Mr and Mrs Giraffe adopt a crocodile” (or possibly Mr and Mr Giraffe couldn’t quite catch it) . Teachers are being forced to include “non-traditional” family structures in their lessons. The two gay men who married in Montpellier earlier this year already had a foreign child lined up for adoption. They had a valiant discussion about what they could do to protect their children but one contribution was from a speaker whose friend insisted to his children on the way to school – “repeat after me ‘marriage is between a man and woman, repeat after me…”‘ I’m afraid it all seems pretty sad and not likely to get much better when today I read that a new app has been launched based on a very successful homosexual model which puts people in touch who want casual, no strings sex. A study of the effects of pornography in Canada had to be abandoned because they could not find a control group of young people who had not witnessed significant amounts of pornography.
We are looking at the wholesale destruction of souls through the objectification of the body. Sorry if this seems really miserable, I do believe good will win in the end but it’s hard to swim in the sea of piercings, tattoos and apps with your head out of the water!
Heloise,
Your post was languishing in moderation and I’ve only just seen it – apologies. That’s because the support at WordPress persuaded me to change the settings so that any first posts go into moderation. This is to do with the log in problems some people have had although I can’t quite see how that will help. Anyway, I promised to give it a try. Only the first post will be moderated – your future posts will go straight onto the blog.
Thank you for your very interesting comment. What is happening in France is chilling but it’s on the agenda here, as well. There can be no doubt about it.
My heart went out to the parent to told his children to “repeat after me, marriage is between a man and a woman…repeat after me.”
Truly chilling. Diabolically chilling. But entirely scriptural, what is evil is made to look like good and good treated as evil.
Chilling – and then some.
Heloise,
“A study of the effects of pornography in Canada had to be abandoned because they could not find a control group of young people who had not witnessed significant amounts of pornography.”
I am speechless. How bad is that? No wonder societies in the western world are in terminal decline.
I heartily agree that good will win in the end but in the meantime, life is very hard for those of us who are not liberal minded. We are painted as nutcases.
“It seems that in state schools all books referring to normal relations between men and women and gender stereotypes are being removed from schools and replaced by “daddy wears a dress” ”
Heloise,
France seems to be in dire straits. I keep wondering how children brought up in this sex-mad environment are going to turn out. What chance do they have? All Catholics need to really get down on our knees and pray hard to appease God’s anger. Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.
Hello there, Oh thank you that’s wonderful. I would explain though that I only noted the time I said my Hail Mary as a matter of interest to get things started. So, could we have a few more please over the next few days – any time or day is fine.
Yorkshire Rose,
That’s fine but could we leave it at that now and return to the thread topic. I don’t look forward to reading a succession of posts reporting that “I said at Hail Mary at 1pm…. 2pm ….. 3pm …” etc.
You’ll get my drift. Let’s leave the subject of atheism for another time. Right now, the thread topic please and thank you.
On topic…
A friend of mine is married to someone who has a whole gaggle of children born when he was in a live-in relationship with a girlfriend before he met and married his wife. They are now expecting their own baby.
It struck me listening to the overjoyed couple that this sort of situation is now widespread, everywhere. In some cases the siblings and half-siblings will get to meet and know one another, in others (I can think of one) the wife won’t want her children meeting their half-siblings.
Am I alone in lamenting this as a “total mess”?
Why is it that priests do not preach about the need for purity and chastity and abstinence before marriage? Some priests argue that they do preach about fidelity within marriage but young people don’t relate that to their behaviour BEFORE marriage. They think that’s fine, once I’m married I’ll be faithful, but they are sometimes amazed to learn that they should not be engaging in sexual activity UNTIL they are married.
Why can’t priests see the need to preach on this issue very clearly, in words of one syllable that any young person will understand? Perhaps it’s time for priests to cite some of the situations, similar to those published on this thread, to make the youngsters in their congregations think of the possible consequences of their “lifestyle (i.e. immoral) choices”.
priests do preach and teach on purity, abstinence and chastity. Modern man does not have the same desire or comprehension for the “higher things” The erosion of faith and the secularization of the culture foster a permissiveness and indeed a flagrant disrespect for natural law as well as Church teaching.Every priest encounters the living together scenario before marriage as the norm.. and yet the stats are if you live together first you are now 3 times more likely to be in the divorced column after marriage. Those who are not sexually active before marriage and do not live together (and for the record , those who pray worship and serve together), and practise NFP within marriage the divorce rate is less than 3% these are all conversation pieces I know a large number of priests will have wit h couples in preparation. Most couples today will play the game of coming to classes and then once they get their “BIG” day we as priests don’t see them until they want a baby baptised that is the norm.. so you have to work on evangelization first – no point in knowing the doctrines of the Church and the rules if you do not have a love for and a relationship with the saviour. Our prayer life is to draw us into the mystery of the faith and develop this relationship with Jesus and his Holy Mother and the Saints. The culture of collusion and entitlement is at the heart of this.
Leading people to Christ is the goal of the priest we can only show them the way we cant make them etc.. Faith is not simply an academic exercise.. it filters through all the senses destined for the heart (biblically the heart is where you do your thinking); The liturgy is firstly a place of transformation, it is where the human meets the divine; the creature meets the creator – in and through it we are transformed, not merely informed. We have to ask difficult questions when a priest does not speak about those virtues which pertain to the wholeness and health of the human person and indeed the plan of God for human love
Nor is faith an intellectual avenue for spiritual snobbery. There is a real danger that people lose themselves in the rhetoric of the past and forget the purpose of the gospel. Jesus has strong words for us ” I do not know you” This personal relationship was an OCD quality of St Thomas Aquinas You have spoken well of me Thomas” Even Jesus spoke Latin to St Thomas haha!
working with parents and young people on a daily basis I also know the need for wisdom and prudence in approaching these areas. promoting healthy authentic relationships has to be done with sensitivity and craft. Eg. recently a so called catholic school presented a number of young people for said Caritas awards 3 young people (Mass attenders), were able to tell me they didn’t go in for the caritas as three of the girls were lesbian; 3 atheist; one Muslim and none went to Mass! When the schools are rewarding young people for printing bulletins, helping father tidy the grounds or visiting the sick without the Catholic identity – its very hard then for the priest to speak into the relational truth of the Catholic Church after the lie that has been created that we are all equal and its OK for you to be this way etc.. Personally I would get rid of catholic high schools as there are really none that resemble the Church they represent.. So speaking of purity has to be done carefully and honestly. This is why JPII asked those very questions “what does it mean to be human?” read – there are some acts that are beneath being human and are in fact inhuman – and since the answer to the first question is to love, we then have to ask “what does it mean to love?” read there are some ways of so called love that are beneath the human person and indeed teach him or her to use another person in such a way that it violates the order of love and ultimately will destroy how human beings authentically communicate .. but wait that’s the Theology of the body.. surely Editor and JPII are not asking the same questions
Your witness
Scottish Priest,
A very clear and thoughtful post – made me think. Actually, these words in particular made me think…
…no point in knowing the doctrines of the Church and the rules if you do not have a love for and a relationship with the saviour.
And what did it make me think? It made me think of my teaching days at secondary and college level. I would tell new students that I was not “into” the popular system of ice-breakers, and getting to know you all before settling down to the work of the course. It is, I used to say, in the teaching and learning process that we will very soon get to know one another (usually raised a few smiles!) And I could almost hear the sighs of relief – those corny ice-breaking lessons really can be a pain.
So, with respect, Father, how do we enable young people to “have a love for and a relationship with the saviour” if we don’t teach them that Christ actually said “if you love Me you will keep my Commandments.” ? Drum roll…
The “rules” – in other words – are surely a useful starting point for identifying the boundaries which are integral to any relationship. You are a (very good!) priest (but don’t quote me – I’ll deny it outright!) and I am a (first class, slim, glamorous, intelligent, witty etc) laywoman. We need to keep those boundaries in mind when we meet for tea and cream cakes (I’m still not over the shock of Bradford’s closing down, but I digress) I mean, we can’t have YOU claiming to be slim, glamorous, witty etc. You’d have crossed a line (!)
You’ll get my drift. It sounds good to talk about “a relationship with Jesus” and such like but, divorced from the Church and the Commandments, there IS no true relationship with Jesus. That, however sensitively it is done, has to be the starting point of every priest and teacher seeking to evangelise the young. How can we speak of Christ without immediately pointing out that He is God made man, come to earth, to save us from Hell… Hell and sin going hand in hand. It’s impossible. To portray Jesus merely as a nice man who wanted to make the world a better place, is confusing for young people. They know that they are not asked to keep the rules of any other nice man who wanted to improve the world.
Of course the practical problems today evident in the “Caritas” conversation you mention, are very real and, I acknowledge, have compounded the work of evangelising the young. Still, I think that the example of the French parent reported above should be a sort of template for action: immediately after leaving a meeting where material was exhibited promoting same-sex marriage which must be used in state schools, that parent told his child to “repeat after me: marriage is between a man and a woman… repeat after me…”
In other words, the importance of speaking the truth to young people who have imbibed and believe the homosexual (and other) propaganda, is all the more urgent today.
And no, not really: Pope John Paul II and Editor are not really “asking the same questions” because I’ve never taken to this question of “how do we become more human”. The question I learned to answer at school and which I have never forgotten is: “why did God make me?” Answer: “God made me to know, love and serve Him in this life, so that I may be happy with Him forever in the next.”
When did you hear or read of Pope John Paul II (or any modern pope) saying that? Mentioning God?! Kidding, right?! OK, so I exaggerate – a little…
Scottish Priest,
Great post – thank you .
The only problem I see with starting to talk about “the order of love” is that young people today would question Jesus’ authority to make rules about love.
Is it not necessary to begin with the divinity of Christ to show that he has authority to launch a church and so on? (I ask this and you probably take it for granted – if so, I apologise!)
Editor
We are saying similar things really. I meant ..being Catholic is a way of living not a way of thinking there is no point in knowing doctrines etc.. if you are not attending Holy Mass. The proper and ordinary way of receiving grace is through the sacraments – so it does make a difference if you are going to mass – people today will say I am a good person, but I don’t go to Mass but we are not called to be good we are called to be saints and for that we need grace and the sacraments.The commandment to keep the Sabbath is precisely that a commandment, not a suggestion The personal relationship with Jesus mean (not in a tree hugging i love Jesus evangelical way), rather the goal of my life is Christ (Paul: I live no longer but Christ lives in me..),
The question was not “How do I become more human” the question was “what does it mean to be human?” Completely different. the answer is to love and how do we love by keeping the commandments by knowing loving and serving God etc etc,, so you really are asking the same question as Pope JPII did.. and I will be slim glamorous and witty … in the next life.. can’t wait! Perhaps this was why Mary did not recognise Jesus in the garden.. in His glorified state He was revealed in perfection.
Those two questions (as presented/couched in the language of philosophy by JPII), are a frontal assault on homosexuality and contraception as well as all the major dysfunctional sexual issues that are prevalent today. I do however find it beyond reason that we would/could expect our culture to be a of a higher moral fibre than when Jesus was walking the planet.. It would seem since the fall Gen 3. we have been dealing with the same issues…oops that’s JPI as well. That’s not to throw my hands in the air and saying we should not a t least try. However, the formation of the young is not being handed on properly as our teachers are either ,living with a boyfriend or worse and not attending Mass. There needs to be a follow up character/faith letter from the parish priest that confirms each catholic teacher as practising their faith it would separate the users the careerists and the genuine teachers
Court closed for lunch, defence rests for a bit
Scottish Priest
“However, the formation of the young is not being handed on properly as our teachers are either ,living with a boyfriend or worse and not attending Mass. There needs to be a follow up character/faith letter from the parish priest that confirms each catholic teacher as practising their faith”
That is so very true. So many teachers are not living proper moral Catholic lives, as you say but teacher friends of mine who share the same concern, tell me that student teachers and teachers going for promotion, still get a good reference from their priests even though the priest must know that they don’t practise.
This must be known in Clyde Street, so it is dreadful that it is permitted. Those priests who give good references to teachers who are cohabiting are a disgrace. I wonder how they can live with their consciences.
When I love someone, I want to know all I can about him – likes and dislikes, preferences and whims, background and experiences.
When I say I love someone and then tell him I don’t want to know at all about all his boring doctrines and silly orthodox formulas, I’m just paying lip service to love. In fact, I’m a fair-weather lover. A fake. A liar.
Dogmas and doctrines are the source of love: they are the solid foundation that love is built on. Saying that we should learn to love before we bother with the teachings is akin to saying that we should learn to love a sweet aroma before learning what a flower is.
At issue is that doctrines and dogmatic decrees are not an impediment, and we must never speak as if they were. The heart of the matter is that people really don’t want to love; rather, they want to indulge their appetites and use other people for their own gratification. They live not for happiness, but for pleasure.
Are people in our age really different from people in our Lord’s age? In their nature, not at all: if our nature was different, then we wouldn’t say we were all people. But there is this difference: in our Lord’s day, people were schooled in the commandments, even when they did not keep them; thus, our Lord reminded them of what they had forgotten or neglected. In our age of secular, amoral, godless education, meanwhile, people have never heard of what the commandments really oblige: they do in fact have to be schooled in what the commandments are and what they mean. Our age needs a good primer that previous ages did not require.
Wurdesmythe,
“Dogmas and doctrines are the source of love: they are the solid foundation that love is built on. Saying that we should learn to love before we bother with the teachings is akin to saying that we should learn to love a sweet aroma before learning what a flower is.”
Well said – that is very clear. I think all the talk about “what makes us human” (Pope JP II) goes all round about the houses, as they say, trying to show exactly what you’ve said in a few words. I agree with Scottish Priest that, in the end, he’s saying the same thing as editor and you, but it takes longer to see it because of the JP II verbiage.
Dogmas and doctrines are not the source of love! Jesus is the source of love!, Dogmas and doctrines are the living tradition of the magisterium which breathes the person of Christ into the teaching office, but they a re never the source. Love is not built on doctrine, doctrine is built on love! The person of Christ is the source of love.
JPII was a philosopher and uses the language of philosophy to identify the struggles of humanity. after “Love and responsibility” in 1955 he clearly build s the foundation for Humane Vitae. Clarity was his gift – perhaps not in the language but in the content for sure..Pope Benedict’s first encyclical was a development of the teaching of JPII – it takes time to sift through but well worth it
Scottish Priest
I think there is a false dichotomy here, surely. Of course God, Christ, is “the source of love” but can you separate Christ from His Church – i.e. “doctrines and dogmas”?
Reading the statements of successive modern popes, especially Pope Francis, I learn nothing about Christ. So much woolly, meaningless comments about – I hate to say it again – this “nice man, Jesus” who wants us to forge a “relationship” with Him.
What does that mean? As Wurdesmythe says, when we love someone we want to know all about them and the only way to know more about Christ is to know what He teaches – even to say we need to know that He suffered and died for us, begs the question “but why?” Answer: to save us from Hell. All roads lead to Christ’s teaching – doctrines and dogmas.
I think, anyway, – as you said yourself earlier – that we are fundamentally in agreement, but take different routes to our destination. The philosophical approach of Pope John Paul II, the long preambles about “being human” does not appeal to me. The encyclicals of the recent popes do not compare – in clarity and ease of reading – with the older encyclicals of the pre-Vatican II pontiffs.
Anyway, I’m sure we are basically in agreement – I’m sure you think the same as me / the rest of us on this thread; you’ve just got to grit your teeth and admit that. Repeat after me The lay bloggers are right – this is the age of the laity, they must be right…
Go on, smile!
Scottish Priest is engaging in hair-splitting that has the effect of making faith, hope, and charity formless and meaninngless. Doctrines are based in objective reality and experience – they were an event first, and then became a tradition later. The doctrines are a summation of what it is that we love; if we say we love without bothering with an account of what it is we love, we’ve said something meaningless because the doctrines determine the form our love must take. To profess a love Christ apart from His doctrines is like the fellow whsoa says he still loves his wife in spite of all his infidelities.
Wurdesmythe,
I think Scottish Priest doesn’t mean to “hair-split”, it’s just that he’s been reading Pope John Paul II and thinks his writings are clear. I’ve never read any of his writings because I found it hard enough to understand his speeches which were IMHO longwinded without really saying anything helpful.
Scottish Priest wrote: “JPII was a philosopher and uses the language of philosophy to identify the struggles of humanity. after “Love and responsibility” in 1955 he clearly builds the foundation for Humane Vitae.”
I would have said that the foundation for Humanae Vitae was just the natural law, that at the end of the day, Paul VI realised he couldn’t change the natural law.
However, I haven’t read any of Pope John Paul II’s writings so I shouldn’t really say anything more, except I think Scottish Priest, who understands the philosophy of JPII, is more likely than not to be agreeing that young people really can’t be taught about Jesus without also being taught his doctrines.
JPII was a phenomenologist philosopher, which was at the heart of the problem he had expressing himself clearly. Like the rest of the modern and modernist systems, phenomenology begins with the subjective instead of the objective, and then it trips getting over the threshold of epistemology – its practitioners are forever asking “What is truth? How do we know what we know? Is my truth the same as your truth?” Whatever one can say about an individual’s personal sanctity, a muddled philosophy makes for muddled writings. Give me even an amateur moderate realist any day.
Our Lord is in His doctrines; to put aside His doctrines is to put aside our Lord. An example of this is the Gospel of St. John, chapter VI, in which our Lord teaches that He is the Bread of Life. In verse 67 “After this, many of his disciples went back to their old ways, and walked no more in his company.” He did not back off His doctrine; instead, He *repeated* it when asked. If they had Loved Him, they would have loved and accepted His doctrine – “Lord, to whom should we go? Thy words are the words of eternal life; we have learned to believe…” By rejecting His doctrine, they rejected Him. Acceptance of and adherence to the doctrine is the measure of one’s love for Him.
Naturally, the detached recitation of ancient formulae will make them appear to be stale and impersonal; that’s true of any subject. Doctrine wakens and engages faith and love when it is taught in a way so as to speak to the soul. If in teaching doctrine one stops at the intellect, then he has given a crumb instead of a loaf. But to talk of love without reference to the doctrine that makes the Author of Love knowable is to give stones instead of bread.
If one were to use a human example: suppose a fellow says he loves his wife, but he never gives any outward show of affection. This is a source of sadness and frustration for the wife, and after years of this neglect she lets out a murmur. “Wife,” the man replies, “I told you on our wedding day that I loved you. If I’d changed my mind, I would have let you know.” No, it just won’t do. Such a fellow would very much benefit from a Doctrine of a Happy Marriage that summarizes what his conduct as a loving husband should be like: patch the roof; take out the rubbish; trim the hedges; cut the grass; organize the garage; change the oil in the car; pay the bills; don’t stay out late; spend time with the children; speak to the mother-in-law; mind your eyes; remember the anniversary; send flowers now and again; tell the wife you love her and that she makes you happy. Hopefully no one here will say, “This is strange talk, who can be expected to listen to it?”
Wurdesmythe,
Brilliant.
I do, in fact, though, think that when you write: “If in teaching doctrine one stops at the intellect, then he has given a crumb instead of a loaf” you are, in fact, echoing what Scottish Priest is actually saying.
I couldn’t agree more with you about the philosophical ramblings – trying to converse with an alleged philosopher is a nightmare due to exactly what you say: “but what do we mean by X, Y, Z” to which I invariably respond, gerragrip!
Your analogy of the married couple is so simple, so clear. Now that I see what a good husband should be like, I’m beginning to wish I’d got married. If you add ironing to that list, I’ll inform the lucky guy tomorrow…
I think the secret is not to let our relationship with Christ stop at the intellect, as Scottish Priest says. If we only regurgitate Church teaching, without praying and doing spiritual reading and so on, then the danger is that we are like the person who can recite a poem by rote without really knowing what it means.
It’s like people who talk a lot about Fatima and don’t do the First Five Saturdays or pray the Rosary every day or wear the Brown Scapular. It can be just talk. I think that’s what Scottish Priest is getting at – it’s what I take out of his comments, anyway, and I think that is correct.
JPII’s phenomenology is not a rambling introspection. For those unfamiliar with it he takes for example Divorce and then asks what your experience of divorce is and then applies the teaching of the Church to it – it s a perfectly reasoned intelligible way and popular because of it s clarity. His philosophy begins in genesis with man being made in the image and likeness of God – he then develops this showing how Christ is the fullness of this revelation in scripture and and then apply it to humanity. There is is no tripping over epistemology..that’s a non sequitor .. rather a methodology that yes begins with the subject but can only point to the Creator.. The gift of self is only understood when given – the self donation as in Christ gives of himself and dies for His bride who is the Church – an example of what it means to be human and what it means to be a man.. the reason we have the crucifix on the altar is to remind us not as some protestants would have you believe to keep Jesus on the cross or worse re crucify him – no its to teach us the meaning of our humanity the ultimate sacrifice to lay down your life. The dying to self is central to to JPII ‘s teaching; its not subject orientated nor is it modernist. absurd
Now your example of John 6.. firstly, they rejected Jesus’ teaching not because of a rejection of doctrine but because every good Jew would know Jesus had blasphemed “this is an intolerable teaching” He broke the law of Leviticus.. Jews don’t touch let alone eat that which is considered unclean(Incidentally this is PRECISELY why he priests breaks a small piece of the host and adds it to the chalice – it reminds..makes present, us of the new covenant and the living body is added tot he living blood.. anathema to the Jew and just in case you missed all this language and theology of sacrifice its why the last Gospel in the Old rite is Johns Gospel “in the beginning was the Word..” this is he language of he Eucharist in later years… the doctrine of the Eucharist was not developed until much later. When Jesus talks of eating my flesh it means to gnaw on it” SARX” in Greek means .. flesh stripped from an animal this is temple language and the language of sacrifice which again is developed later again by JPII (and of course firstly the Fathers of the Church from whom JPII borrows excessively!!
What is the purpose of marriage in the Catholic Church? the purpose is for each spouse to get the other to heaven through the saviour .. your functional understanding of the theology of marriage leads to your black and white canvas..its much more rich its much more biblical and please ! Doctrine is the expression of Christ as revealed through the teaching office of the Church you first must know love and serve the saviour.. quoting objective truths without Christ is a form of divorce
Testing, Testing.
Scottish Priest,
I think most informed Catholics have a very good understanding of the nature of marriage, and that the spouses are to help each other to Heaven. I’ve understood that since my twenties at least, if not earlier (infancy – I was a child genius).
I also understood (in my earliest days, through sound sermons) that today’s Gospel (Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself.. Your Father in Heaven knows that you need all of these things…) was one of the ways God revealed to married couples that they really don’t need to worry about how many children they could “afford” – although it’s many years since I heard a priest in the pulpit, make that crucial connection. We get generic exhortations to trust God, Divine Providence this and Divine Providence that, but not the practical joining-up-the-dots that might herald a moment of grace for young people in the wake of that beautiful Gospel.
So, to develop your closing words a little, applying the teaching of Christ, (as, e.g. today’s Gospel), to the temptations, heresies and immoral behaviours dressed up as “being responsible”, of our times, is another crucial way of evangelising young people. They need to see the connection between Christ and everyday life.
Now, I must confess to having raced through your comment very quickly so if I’ve misunderstood, I apologise. If I haven’t misunderstood, thought – ha ha: game, set and match to moi!
I’m impressed with your status of child genius..genius is a term JPII applies to women in Mueleris Dignitatem .. .. I have to say however, that in my time I have never heard any couple in preparing for marriage say the purpose of marriage is to get you to heaven, mostly they say Marriage is for love and raising a family etc.. they usually don’t get that it has a purpose its designed to get you somewhere..all sacraments are! All is gift as St Paul says. I’m reminded that we are merely the stewards of the mysteries of God.. you received without charge give without charge reminds us of providence and of the mediation we are to be in bringing Christ to others.. when we readt he Gospels we encounter the person of Christ not a document it is this living Word that is the foundation of our lives as Catholic. The scriptures must be our first port of call when building our case. Doctrine is formed from them not the other way around. Take the doctrine of the Assumption – our protestant friends would have us believe it is un biblical .. until we discover that there are at least two clear examples of this in the OT can you name the two who were assumed into heaven? Scriptures build a path that doctrine can walk on, this is perhaps why so many evangelicals are joining the faith
Scottish Priest,
I don’t like having to admit it, but I can’t name the two in the OT who were assumed into Heaven. Please enlighten!
this is what i am driving at – ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ.. St Jerome. The person of Christ comes first then doctrine and documents. Jesus is on every page almost in the OT The two who were assumed – Genesis 5 Enoch was walking in the garden of the Lord and was taken up into heaven; Ezekiel entered heaven on a chariot of fire in 2Kings2-1
Some suggest this was the root of Mohammed ‘s journey to Jerusalem but he was never anywhere near Jerusalem other than in his dreams.Another story. The Blessed Mother obviously is one who was assumed into heaven “when her course in this life had run” CCC. Whether she was in Ephesus or Jerusalem is another matter. I opt for Ephesus as she was there, tradition suggests the Church of Dormition but she wasn’t there unless she was taken there or left Ephesus
Scottish Priest,
You kidding? I can think of Scripture Scholars who couldn’t name the two OT figures to whom you refer.
Of course we should know and love Sacred Scripture, but I am very wary of anyone who tries to separate out Christ, Scripture, Doctrine. That can only lead to confusion.
That Christ is God is a doctrine. That Christ loves us and died for us is doctrine. That Christ founded what is now known as the Catholic Church is doctrine. That Christ gave His Church authority to teach in His name is doctrine. That Christ reaffirmed the Commandments instructing us to KEEP them (and in fact, tightening up a few – see Sermon on the Mount) is doctrine.
The idea that we can forge a “relationship” with Jesus by singing sentimental “love songs” about Him or pray to the Holy Spirit holding hands and rolling our eyes Heavenwards until such times as we are ready to “do the doctrine” is to create (a number of) false dichotomies.
Scottish Priest,
What about Elijah (2 Kings 2:11)? Thank you for taking the time to reply – as always, I find your posts particularly enlightening.
sorry that should have said Elijah in 2Kings not Ezekiel
Scottish Priest,
Some years ago, I was bridesmaid to a (then friend) who was full of the fact that it was her job to save her husband’s soul. She threw him out when he proved to be more of a pain in the neck that she’d anticipated. One of those Catholics in good standing, you know the type. She is the same “then friend” who responded to one of my criticisms of a bishop by expressing shock horror because… “he’s a BISHOP!” Not the brightest button in the box. But, as one would expect from the profile just given, she later climbed the ladder of success in Catholic education. You just gotta love these Catholics in good standing.
I’m interested in your comment about “the scriptures being our first port of call…”
Since Tradition came well before Scripture, and since the Church regards both as having equal weight, I’d be interested to know how you reach your conclusion. As one Protestant pointed out to me, the word “Trinity” is among several doctrines not explicitly named in Scripture, so with all due respect, – and acknowledging that they have equal weight – if I were forced to choose my “first port of call” it wouldn’t be Scripture – it would be Tradition.
And again, with respect, the doctrine of the Assumption of Our Lady may be regarded as having been pre-figured in the Old Testament examples you cite, not sure, never thought about it, but when I corrected Professor John Haldane’s Protestant view of dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption in our newsletter, I did so (with the help of a traditional priest) by pointing out the Catholic roots of these dogmas, including the promise of Our Lord to His first bishops when He left this earth that the Paraclete would come to remind them of all that Christ had taught them (John 14, I think). In other words, we know – from Tradition, the writings of the Fathers etc – that these dogmas were there from the earliest days.
As for the “many evangelicals who are joining the Faith” – where is this? Glasgow? Edinburgh? Aberdeen? Brazil? Can’t be Latin America because the Catholics there are flocking to join the Evangelicals.
I think ‘sexual liberation’ is the wrong term. The ability to go out have sex with man, women or beast is not ‘liberation’. Man becomes a captive of a sexual abomination with a profound weakness towards any type of sins of the flesh. I am 19 and unmarried, with no girlfriend, and I rigidly and follow the Catechism’s teaching on chastity and I feel FREE. ‘Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.’
A key part of sexual liberation was feminism. These witches, led by Kate Smurthwaite and Germaine Greer are damnable because they want to turn women into men. Feminism is the Western sense of the term equals the ‘right’ to annihilate an innocent unborn child or to get free contraception. Our Church is a truly feminist institution because it says w are equal but different, each sex with a different role, with men allowed to be men, and women allowed to be women. In the Abortion debate in Ireland, the women who opposed Abortion looked like good Catholics, whilst the Pro-Death squad looked like sluts. They may as well have said to the BBC- ‘the reason I want Abortion is not because of women’s rights, but because I’m a slut, and I want to have sex without the consequences.’
As for AIDs as a product of sexual liberation, society deserves it. AIDs is a righteous judgement. Schools should be teaching that chastity, heterosexuality, fidelity and monogamy are the best things in life, with homosexuality being wrong. Now, AIDs is incurable. FACT. Why aren’t AIDs victims being taken to an Island or a remote Sanatorium instead of being allowed to pollute society? Tuberculosis was curable yet people were carted off to sanatoriums, why ot with AIDS victims? Part of me sympathises with them, but part of me thinks they deserve it.
Is Garry Otton still on this blog? If so, the sexual crisis is solely the fault of you and your braindead allies in liberal governments and the LGBT rights movement.
catholicconvert1
tut tut Editor now who is being naughty.. the oral tradition is the scripture 1 cor 111 -16 and it was handed on by word of mouth.,.in our culture we write things down to protect them in that culture it was memorised like the Shammai Deut 6 every Jew would pray this every day. The bible doesn’t mention that Jesus went to the loo but pretty sure he did. I have no issue with doctrine or dogma just remember they grew out of of the scriptures first. the early councils were defined based onwhat was taught by Jesus and handed on tot he apostles …Luke and Matthew both cover the beatitudes but Luke has it on plain Matthew up a mountain so which is it/ Paul says since all have fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3 was Mary not sinless? I can make the bible into whatever I want that’s called protestantism but my point is only and I repeat ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ therefore ignorance of his Church and what it teaches.. There is no last supper account in Johns gospel are we to presume it didn’t happen? Clearly it did- early liturgies and What eventually became e the mass was already happening in the breaking of the bread and the breaking of the word my point is we don’t have dogma and doctrine without scripture and tradition – tradition did not create doctrine the Church didi over time. The trinity is not mentioned as pointed out by Jehovah witnesses but even they don’t believe what they used to
In the USA there is a constant stream of evangelicals coming into the Church
all our dogmas and doctrines come out of scripture thats my point.. if we dont accept that we are in error and are in a sense protestant and we have to know scripture in order to see it . What changes protestants in almost all cases is scripture and the writings of the Fathers a s they see the continuity there for sure and how doctrine developed..
Scottish Priest,
I hope this is not ‘off topic’ but I am somewhat confused.
According to the Old Testament, Enoch, Elijah and Ezekiel were assumed into Heaven. However, in the New Testament – John 3:13 it states: “No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man”.
well if that’s the case where do we get the doctrine of the Assumption – it has to come from scripture or we are just making it up… And yet Jesus tells us that Lazarus the poor man goes into heaven and is comforted by Abraham.. or that Moses Elijah and Abraham are also in heaven according to Jesus or perhaps the transfiguration with Moses and Elijah appearing was maybe just a vision.. but why would Peter want to build three tents for a vision..quoting John out of context is a very protestant thing to do.. there has to be a witness tot he scripture before the doctrine can exist or the protestants are right so too with the canon of scripture the books in the bible in the NT needed a n eye witness to be accepted intothe canon or again we are in trouble..this is why we have 73 and the protestants have 66 in the common canon
As Mentioned above I can make the scriptures say whatever I want unless the Church which is the “pillar and foundation of truth guides me.. this is what the evangelicals and protestants are coming to realise in big numbers in eh USA
Scottish Priest,
You said: “…well if that’s the case where do we get the doctrine of the Assumption – it has to come from scripture or we are just making it up…”
I thought only Protestants believed in “sola scriptura” and that the Assumption of Our Lady was something the Church always taught and believed as part as part of Tradition – things not written down, but taught by the first apostles – which was eventually formally defined as dogma.
As editor said above, Tradition carries equal weight with scripture as the source of Catholic belief. Not everything we believe is in the bible.
Scottish Priest,
I answered John Haldane’s criticism that the Assumption and Immaculate Conception were “later dogmas” here (see Editor Replies, page 6) so, although the context is slightly different, I think that what I wrote there – with the help of a traditional priest (not one of those “in good standing” with the local bishop, but, I have no doubt, in excellent standing with God)- applies to what you say about Scripture on this thread.
Note: the fact that it is recorded that Our Lord said in St John’s Gospel that the Paraclete would come to remind the apostles of all that He had taught them, demonstrates, in a sense, that these dogmas and later definitions also, ARE rooted in Scripture, whether or not explicitly recorded there. We can’t just “make it up” – there has to be solid evidence from Scripture, the earliest writings of the Fathers, etc. that a particular belief was held from the beginning. Quite different from the Protestant belief that unless it’s explicitly recorded in Scripture, it’s not true.
As for those floods of evangelical converts, as I’ve said before, to what kind of set-up are they converting? Is it along the “charismatic renewal” (i.e. essentially Protestant) type of parish/diocese, or what?
I have just sifted through you reference in a previous CT newsletter. I have no issue with Scripture and Tradition being inseparable one grew out of the other and into the other as it were. Tradition is the lungs through which the scriptures breath as somebody once said ..if not I’m claiming it! I once shared a bus journey with Prof haldane in Jericho we discussed the assumption of the Blessed Mother from Jerusalem or Ephesus – I opted for Ephesus he for Jerusalem – both perfectly legitimate: one honours the tradition the other the scriptures. If you opt for Jerusalem you have recourse to tradition but you have to get her from Ephesus.. if you opt for Ephesus you are in line with both. I don’t think for one second that he has any questions about the dogmas of the Church if the conversations I had with him on that journey are a measure of his leaning, I’d say he was pretty orthodox (I don’t really lie using the word orthodox, its another religion really).
I noticed in that newsletter a reference to Mgr Loftus and vestments and lace etc.. You might be interested to know one of the few precious things to survive the destruction of the temple were ornate vestments. They were considered part of the essential worship material as it were. This means they were cleverly hidden in order to preserve them. The ignorance surrounding lace vestments is another issue. Anyone care to guess where they came from?? I suspect most don’t ..anyhow this will help when trying to identify the leaning of the priest .. The origin of the lace was meant to reflect yes the dignity of the Mass but they represented the fishing nets or the nets of the fishermen – that is of the Apostles.. you could argue a continuity there… They SHOULD resemble thick links that clearly resemble nets as it were – the finery of the intricate lace is not really part of the tradition it grew into the practise as the focus became on extravagance and not on accuracy. It is sadly a trait of how shall we say .. the lighter the the finer the lace the lighter he is on his feet. The style and type of lace is a a discussion point among seminarians and indeed those priests in the traditional Mass know that the lace makes a statement .. in seminary students with fine lace are confused with traditional when it suggests something else. In other words the more masculine the lace (if there be such a thing), the more authentic it is – I suppose you could argue that what the lace originally meant has been disfigured
Scottish Priest,
You say of Professor Haldane that “he (is) pretty orthodox”
I haven’t met the Professor but I’ve exchanged fairly extensive email correspondence, culminating in the article he submitted which you read in Issue No. 71, March, 2012, and found him courteous and helpful in our exchanges.
However, quite apart from the fact that John did not hold to the essential Catholic doctrine that the entire deposit of the Faith was revealed before the death of the last apostle, as brought out in my reply to his article, he regards the dissident Open House as being on a par, so to speak, with Catholic Truth, as if it were OK to peddle error and heresy and equally OK for us to challenge it. Really? Given that it is a grave sin to entertain doubts about what God has revealed, how can it be “orthodox” to sow doubts in the minds of Open House readers?
Answer: it can’t be; this is not the mindset of someone who holds to orthodox Catholic beliefs.
About the lace – that is very interesting indeed, I didn’t know any of that about the lace representing the fishing nets. WOW! I must use that. Something tells me you’re going to make it into the October edition, Scottish Priest – fame at last!
That’s very interesting! i did not read all of the content as I said I sifted through it..time does not allow. Sounds as if he he is a bit of a chameleon then.. his personality type is don’t rock the boat for sure, however, my only experience of him in the discussion I had left me thinking he was in line with Church.. Oh well
Eileenanne
I think you misunderstand me – the context in the discussion above was where do we get the teachings from – the oral tradition has to have a source in the spoken word handed down as clearly taught by the Church. If it did come down from the words of Jesus or the Apostles it didn’t just appear –
My point Editor is that they are rooted in scripture
Eileenanne
Protestants do NOT believe in Sola Scriptura at all. Anyone who still maintains this gobsmacking lie is a moron. If the Protestant false Churches believe in Sola Scriptura then be a lamb, and tell me why they ordain women and sodomites? Why don’t they share our beliefs on the Eucharist? Go onto these links and yet again you’ll see why they are wrong and always have been:
http://scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
Sola Fide is not Biblical, either.
http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/the-truth-about-faith-alone-works-and-salvation/
Scottish Priest
‘this is what the evangelicals and protestants are coming to realise in big numbers in eh USA’. Please enlighten me.
catholicconvert1
CatholicConvert,
I guess there are just so many different kinds of Protestants that we cannot say that any particular belief is “what Protestants believe”. Some, maybe most, do claim scripture as the sole authority. The problem may be that each sect interprets the Bible differently.
I KNOW they are wrong. I’m a Catholic. If I believed Protestants (any kind) were right, I’d have to become a Protestant.
The Assumption is in Scripture. It is in the Book of Revelation 12:1-5.
A friend sent me this report, see below. I thought this thread was the best place to put it, since the granting of “human rights” to contraception and abortion has let to the confused family relationship covered here:
Please see the BBC article here…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23861289
It seems Hilary Clinton is to be honoured at St. Andrews Uni next month for ‘championing human rights’. What’s this – some kind of sick joke?
The most fundamental of all human rights is the right to be born – without this, all other human rights are meaningless.
We need lots of protests, please, to the Principal – Professor Louise Richardson
e-mail principal@st-andrews.ac.uk
College Gate
North Street
St Andrews
Fife
KY16 9AJ
Scotland, United Kingdom
Tel: 01334 462544
Protests to local papers would also be helpful, e.g. Fife Today
23 Kirk Wynd
Kirkcaldy
Fife
Scotland
KY1 1EP
e-mail ffpnews@fifetoday.co.uk
Tel: 01592 598808
Scottish Priest
Could you post a link to show the number of US evangelicals/ Protestants who you say are converting?
catholicconvert1
catholic answers (cathoic.com) or the Journey home has someone new almost every week, they may be able to give you a more accurate number of ministers converting tot the faith but its pretty high.. in the 100’s I believe
Catholic Answers is not a very reliable source, if you follow their attacks on traditionalists and the response of The Remnant Newspaper (American)
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/201300731-ferrara-catholic-answers-mad-trad.htm
Scottish Priest and Catholicconvert1
I know this is a bit behind time, but the following might be of interest on the question of how the New Advent, New Springtime, New Evangelisation, Nuclear devastation is progressing in the US. It doesn’t deal with Protestants converting, but rather with the traffic in the opposite direction. Crisis with bells on, I would say. I know one neo-Cath bigwig has used the conversion line to defend the Conciliar destruction, but that smacks of desperation to me.
The attached link is interesting because this highlighting of the slow motion train crash that is taking place in the Church in the US comes from someone who is far removed from the traditionalist camp. I believe, although I’m open to correction, that Ralph Martin is a big noise in the Charismatic Movement.
http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/institutional_collapse/
I think I’m correct in saying that 20% of the US population is nominally Catholic. Polls after the last two Presidential elections claim that Catholics voted in the same proportion as others i.e. on two occasions a majority voted for an antichrist Alinskyite who is waging full frontal warfare against the Kingship of Christ, indeed against natural law itself.
Even allowing for turnout figures, it is a matter of fact that if US Catholics exercised their franchise as one would expect any semi-conscious, faithful, believing Catholic to vote, then a creature such as Obama, or Clinton or any other Democrat or indeed Republican who regarded the butchering of unborn children or the celebration of sodomy as a matter of principle and “rights” would be totally and permanently unelectable.
What exactly does that say about Conciliar New Evangelisation?
I think this action in Germany is a frightening warning of where home-schooling can lead
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/we-are-empty-german-homeschooling-family-raided-four-children-seized-by-gov
I have friends who home-school in the USA, England and Scotland. Reading this discussion thread, Modern Family Life seems to have led to promiscuity and any sign of families wanting to redress the balance is likely to be suppressed.
Lily,
I’ve read that report right through and it is a total disgrace. I think surely an organisation like Lifesitenews or maybe the Christian Institute should be able to fund a court case to the EU Human Rights court about this? It’s an absolute outrage. It’s institutionalised bullying of parents and a complete erosion of their rights to educate their children at home if they choose. I hope it could never happen here but who knows.
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