Money-Spinning Medjugorje…
Following a letter from the Vatican (CDF) to the US nuncio, a planned visit to the US by Ivan one of the alleged seers of Medjugorje, has been cancelled. Click here to read more
This is very good news. Hopefully, this monumental hoax will soon be publicly exposed as such by the Vatican authorities. The “visionaries” and their thousands of fans have refused to accept the legitimate authority of the local bishop on this matter, so it will be interesting to see their reaction when the Vatican, and not before time, eventually denounces the fraud.
One of the most shocking things about the whole thing is that it has become a real money-spinner for the “seers”. Below is a taste of what is out there on the web about just one of those claiming to be in regular communication with Our Lady: the following is from the website Medjugorje Without a Mask – An Inquiry on Ivan…
In September 2009 was announced a report, with a 97-page documental dossier, on real estate transactions made in the USA by the Medjugorje seer Ivan Dragičević.
I chose to insert the link to this report, of course, only after verifying its reliability and validity: whoever would make their own verification, can use the various services in the United States that give, on payment, complete data on the real estate transactions of every citizen.
Eg:
In brief, what follows can be proved by documents and verified: Ivan, who is married with four children, at first contracted, on May 15, 2002, a mortgage loan for which he promised to pay $60,678 a year for 14 years, and then sold this residence for a new one in May 2004: 5,056 Sq. Ft. (land size: 13,844 Sq. Ft.) with a swimming pool. This building is located at 5 Emily Ln Peabody, Massachusetts. In this case, the loan of $800,000 was to be repaid in 6 months (it was in fact paid off in a year).
Here ‘s the original report (in Italian), from the website Abateoimpertinente, and here is an automated translation.
Besides, here can be read the interesting developments and backlash of this report: in Italian, again from the website Abateoimpertinente, and in an automated translation.
So – what do you think… Will the UK nuncio send a similar instruction to the bishops to prohibit visits from Ivan to parishes across the UK? Or will the Medjugorje network here continue to spread its poison?
Comments (43)
The money spinning has been going on for ages in Medjugorje. All the so-called seers have done well out of it. It’s one of the signs that it is not from God. You can see adverts online for pilgrims to stay at Ivan’s home for a price and get to pray with his family etc. It’s a complete joke. How anybody can believe in it just leaves me speechless.
I think it is great that the CDF has acted to stop the visit of Ivan to the States. I hope it makes other bishops think twice about having him come back to Scotland, as I know he has been here a few times.
Margaret Mary,
I agree with what you have said in your posts.
Such a difference between 6 “seers” at Medjugorje and Saint Bernadette and Sister Lucia. Both entered religious life, Saint Bernadette with the Sisters of Nevers. Sister Lucia entered first to the Sisters of Saint Dorothea in 1925, and finding the need eventually for the contemplative life enter Carmel in 1948.
What of the six “seers” then, not one has entered religious life and as you say Margaret Mary, have done well out of it.
Theresa Rose,
You are right – there is a huge difference between the “seers” at Medjugorje and the approved apparitions sites. There is a story told of St Bernadette that when a pilgrim handed her small brother a toy, the saint took it from her brother and handed it back, saying that they didn’t accept gifts. That’s quite a far cry from what is going on at Medjugorje.
I’ve been having this conversation on another blog http://protectthepope.com/?p=9061 In case this comment doesn’t get out of moderation on that blog, here is my answer to Michael Petek, a well-known supporter of Medjugorje:-
Michael,
Forget the moral and mental gymnastics, please answer my question directly in one word, simply yes or no – do you accept the CDF statement referred to in the original comment by Deacon Nick? You either do, or you don’t. Stop playing games. If you do accept it, fine. If you don’t, stay off this and other blogs where you regularly pontificate on others’ disobedience.
Bp Pavao Zanic publicly wrote of lies told by the ‘seers’ and their Franciscan mentors right from the beginning of this sorry episode. It was what convinced him it wasn’t genuine. You conveniently forget all this. Ex-Fr Tomislav Vlasic, who was publicly supported in the messages by ‘Our Lady’ has now been laicised and is with the nun he made pregnant. One of the female ‘seers’ Marija Pavlovic told lies in conjunction with him and later publicly changed her story about a place of prayer he wanted to start with Agnes Heupel. She publicly confessed:- “My first declaration, as published in Croatian and Italian, does not correspond to the truth”.
You said “In what concerns the finding of fact, it is not possible for a reasonable adjudicator acting reasonably, and in accordance with, the Holy See’s published guidelines for the discernment of alleged apparitions, to enter a verdict of “constat non de supernaturalitate”.
So, as the Bishop of Mostar has said in a letter of October 2, 1997 Prot.: 1267/97 “My conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate [the supernaturality is not proven] but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje.”, you are apparently saying that the Bishop of Mostar is unreasonable, which in itself defies reason, and suggests an utter lack of humility, being as you are – by what you have said in previous posts – a benefits adviser from Brighton, not a Bishop from the diocese of Mostar.
You are not qualified in this matter, and have absolutely no authority to discern or reject what the local Ordinary or any other duly authorised individual or body has stated. And PLEASE don’t tell me that the authority has been taken away from Bp Peric by Rome. He gladly invited and asked for the current Commission to take away the pressure from him, as he has publicly stated. Medjugorje has become a global scandal, too big for one bishop to deal with.
Now, I don’t expect you to look at these links, Michael, I fear you are too steeped in this problem for that. But for the benefit of those who might be led astray by prideful usurping of the legitimate roles and functions of bishops, please read the following links about the Medjugorje scandal:-
The Bishop of Mostar’s official English site:-
http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98
Diane Korziewski’s site (in support of legitimate authority):-
http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.co.uk
Marco Corvaglia’s site (also in support of legitimate authority):-
http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en
Pat,
Many thanks for that informative post. I’m sure glad I’m not Michael! Between the scandals involving the priests and the money-making “seers”, I am incredulous that anyone ever took any of this stuff seriously.
Indeed, how anyone can believe the sheer drivel that is peddled in the name of these hoax apparitions day and daily, beats me. It’s easier to believe in the Tooth Fairy.
Speaking of which, have you heard the rumour going around that there’s no Santa Claus? It’s just one hoax after another 🙂
Until the CDF makes a definitive pronouncement on behalf of the Pope against the existence of Santa Claus based upon the findings submitted to it by the International Santa Clause Commission established by Pope Benedict XVI, I will continue to believe in him. I know he’s real. You don’t know how he makes me feel. You’ve never even been to Lapland! I have, and my mittens turned gold. I know the Church will say he’s real one day, they just can’t say it yet because he’s not dead yet.
(p.s. the only reason the Bishop of Lapland is opposed to the existent of Santa is because he secretly colluded with the communist authorities, and we know this is true because Santa Clause told us, so why should I listen to the Bishop of Lapland? Also, it is a well known fact John Paul II supported the Santa Clause movement because of all its good fruits. Who are you to disagree with him editor.)
And everybody knows the Tooth Fairy isn’t real. It’s so uncharitable to compare us sincere Santa believers to those crazy Tooth-Fairyists. Shame on you. Shame on this Blog!
Priceless! Made me laugh heartily, Miles. Thank you for that piece of light entertainment – satire lives on!
Pat,
“Bp Pavao Zanic publicly wrote of lies told by the ‘seers’ and their Franciscan mentors right from the beginning of this sorry episode. It was what convinced him it wasn’t genuine. You conveniently forget all this. Ex-Fr Tomislav Vlasic, who was publicly supported in the messages by ‘Our Lady’ has now been laicised and is with the nun he made pregnant. One of the female ‘seers’ Marija Pavlovic told lies in conjunction with him and later publicly changed her story about a place of prayer he wanted to start with Agnes Heupel. She publicly confessed:- “My first declaration, as published in Croatian and Italian, does not correspond to the truth”.
When I read your comment, particularly the above extract, I thought I was seeing things. My gut always told me Medjugorje was not true, but those hard facts just cannot be ducked. It’s the work of the devil, no doubt about it, and I don’t know how anyone can fail to see that. Thanks for opening my eyes further to this dodgy scam.
Josephine,
Read through the links I sent you – your eyes won’t be opened, they’ll be out on stalks! There is so much evidence against the authenticity – immorality and disobedience of certain Franciscan mentors of the ‘seers’; lying; false doctrine; the ‘seers’ profiteering from the alleged apparitions, the list is endless. But I just cannot understand why anyone would want anything to do with it once they were aware of the facts, but it seems that no matter how much evidence you give people who are involved in it, they either ignore or twist it. Very odd. There is so much to read, but perhaps the best, most succinct piece is Bishop Zanic’s 1990 piece ‘The Truth about Medjugorje’. http://www.cbismo.com/files/file/ZanicMedj_May1990.pdf Bishop Zanic, who was the local Ordinary before Bishop Peric, claimed that Fr Tomislav Vlasic is the creator of Medjugorje. Vlasic made a nun pregnant and has now been laicised by the Holy See. Diane Korzienewski’s blog has a lot of documentation on the laicisation of Vlasic.
Pat,
I’ve looked at the first two of your links and “my eyes being out on stalks” is right enough. It is just beyond belief that this nonsense has gone on for so long. I look forward to reading your third link and the one in your post of this morning.
Josephine (and all)
If you want to read more of Pat’s informative posts on Medjugorje, you can read the blog on the subject over at Protect the Pope. Pat gives some crystal clear and irrefutable responses to the manifestly fanatical Michael. It would be a bit much to expect him to repeat them all here – although he’s more than welcome to do so, of course.
It seems to me that Jeremy Kyle with his trusty lie detector is the only person who can find a definitive answer here.
Frankier,
I’d just been thinking that it is a wonder that nobody has yet sued Ivan & Co. for fraud – how many people have wasted their hard earned money effectively contributing to his mortgages?
Although I was only joking about the lie detector, on second thoughts I don’t see why they couldn’t be used to try and get at the truth. Even if they are not 100% accurate the results of the same questions put to a group of people should get near enough to finding out what is really happening. I think this has been going on for too long now without the Church doing something positive in an effort to reach a conclusion. It isn’t good for everyone concerned, believers or unbelievers, especially when Our Blessed Lady is in the middle of it all.
Frankier,
The seers are already on tape caught out lying (from the earliest days of this scam, in fact), so I think a detector test is not necessary, really. I’d sooner see them in the dock trying to explain away the lies already on record. It’s possible to fool a lie detecting machine, I’m told, but one’s own voice on tape, that would require a whole different kettle of denial! You know the old saying, you can fool a lie detector machine some of the time but you can’t fool a tape recorder at all!
We do not need detectors, it is already all clear!…
PS I meant to add that a very good book on Medjugorje is ‘The Medjugorje Deception: Queen of Peace, Ethnic Cleansing, Ruined Lives’ by E Michael Jones. Well worth trying to get.
Pat,
I posted the following reply to you, re. your reply to Michael on the Protect the Pope site – I’m sure you were arguing on HIS terms and not expressing your own view, but I decided to post it here in case it doesn’t get through the moderation process over there at Protect the Pope. A defence of the SSPX might just be a tad too much of a strain on their liberal principles!
PROTECT THE POPE COMMENT…
Those who claim that the SSPX ever were (or are)in schism had better avoid the Feast of St Athanasius, Doctor of the Church, twice excommunicated because he, like Archbishop Lefebvre, chose to cling to Catholic Tradition during a time of immense crisis in the Church and not follow the herd. It was St Athanasius who said (what the SSPX is saying now) “They have the buildings, we have the Faith.”
I believe Michael Davies knew perfectly well the true status of the SSPX within the Church and before God. If he didn’t know it during his lifetime, he sure knows it now.
I fear that it will go on for a lot longer. The Church seems to be suffering from a type of paralysis with regard to this issue, as with so many other things these days. In the past, this sort of thing would have been stamped out straight away. There seems to be a reluctance to address it and I am wondering if some sort of compromise will eventually be made. If Rome can approve the Neocatechumenate, it can approve anything.
Westminsterfly,
I agree with you that this will go on a lot longer.
Yet, there does not seem to be any of type of paralysis, when it comes to Fatima.
The Third Secret of Fatima has not be divulged, unless it is obliquely. Despite claims that the Consecration has been carried out by more than one Pope. That is not true.
When Our Lady appeared at Fatima she specifically requests that Russia be Consecrated.
If not communistic errors would spread throughout the world.
Sorry, but no amount of posturing that Russia is in the world, therefore the world is and should be Consecrated. Consecrating the world shows a complete disregard for Our Lady and ultimately God Himself. About Fatima, there seems to be lies and more lies.
http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/relateddocs.asp
Perhaps Christopher Ferrara’s article Civil War Raging in Rome Over the Third Secret should be read.
Theresa Rose,
I think Medjugorje purpose is to take people away from Fatima. If everyone who is following Medjugorje was campaigning for the consecration of Russia and the Third Secret to be revealed, it would make a big difference. Medjugorje is the work of the devil, no question.
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 17:07:23 +0000
To: wendy_walker95@hotmail.com
Wendy,
You feeling lonely or something? Why the email address with no comment? I sincerely hope your comment hasn’t been lost, although I suppose it’s preferable to you feeling lonely 🙂
Westminster Fly
You are absolutely spot on with your observation that “if Rome can approve the Neocatechumenate, it can approve anything.” That comment is probably about as succinct a summary of the whole Conciliar crisis as it is possible to make. Maybe I’ve missed something, but the Kiko and Carmen cult appear to be keeping a suspiciously low profile at present. I wonder how long that blessing will last.
Pat
Thank you for your very informative posts. I hope they get the wide distribution that they merit.
On the matter of private revelations it is worth noting the following words from the “Treatise on Mystical Theology,” by Fr. Farges (1923):
“Whereas the divine vision always conforms to the gravity and majesty of heavenly things, diabolical figures will infallibly have something unworthy of God, something ridiculous, extravagant, disorderly, or unreasonable about them.”
Also, the official Church teaching concerning private revelation is explained by Pope Benedict XIV (1675-1758):
“[The Church] simply permits them [private revelations] to be published for the instruction and the edification of the faithful. The assent to be given to them is not therefore an act of Catholic Faith but of human faith, based upon the fact that these revelations are probable and worthy of credence.
“St. John of the Cross asserts that the desire for revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation.
“We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination.” – De Serv. Dei Beatif.
Really, the effective and final suppression of this jamboree is thirty two years overdue. I don’t know about elsewhere, but it appears to me as though a huge number of those faithful Catholics in Ireland who still do something a bit more than go to Mass on Sunday have been taken in by this hoax. “Medj” and EWTN appear to have a very firm foothold amongst “active” Catholics over here. No doubt it has something to do with lack of leadership and the stupefying banality of novus ordoism. Religious “entertainment” appears to be filling a void left by the war waged against sound Catholic teaching, devotions and worship.
Apart from the lies, disobedience and undermining of Church authority, financial exploitation, childish nonsensical content of the “messages”, Medjugorge showcases Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement, surely another outlet for the Modernist obsession with feelings, experiences and vital immanence.
The case against the tens of thousands of “apparitions” at Medjugorge and wherever the show happens to be in town being the appearance of Our Lady has been set down in detail. For me, the simplest, most glaring and irrefutable objection is Medj’s signature “message”, that of the heresy of religious indifferentism, which was evident almost from the beginning.
D) Oct. 1, 1981: “All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317)
“God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers” (“The Apparitions at Medjugorje,” by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)
“Each one’s religion must be respected, and you must preserve yours for yourselves and for your children.” (Kraljevic, p.68)
For me, all debate ends there. How any Catholic can even consider for one second that heresy might come from the mouth of Our Lady is beyond the beyond.
Here’s the verdict of Bishop Emeritus of Isernia-Venafro, and exorcist, Andrea Gemma:
“It is an absolutely diabolical event, around which numerous underworld interests revolve. The Holy Church, which alone can make a pronouncement, through the words of the Bishop of Mostar, has already said publicly and officially that the Madonna never appeared in Medjugorje and that this whole production is the work of the Devil.”
Leo
This doesn’t look too much like a low-profile to me:- http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-receives-neocatechumenal-way-initiators
No, it’s not low profile but it’s what we expect from Pope Francis.
Leo,
Like you, the minute I saw those claims that the Blessed Mother was saying all religions are equal before God, I knew it was from the devil. There’s no way in the world Our Lady would deny the Church. God help those who are going along with this shocking scandal.
“The Holy Ghost can indeed work miracles, but here isn’t just one spirit operating in the world. And when the door to the mind is left purposely open, there is no guarantee which spirit will answer the invitation” (Catholic Encyclopedia).
“The Devil rejoices greatly when a soul seeks after revelations and is ready to accept them; for such conduct furnishes him with many opportunities of insinuating delusions” (St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mt. Carmel, Book 2, Ch. 11).
Theresa Rose
Thank you very much for mentioning Fatima. I’m sure many of those who are caught up with Medjugorge would otherwise be devoted to Our Lady of Fatima and Her essential message.
“I know it was the view of the late Harnish Fraser,” wrote Michael Davies, “that Medjugorje was a means being utilized by Satan to subvert the message of Fatima” (Warning, p. 3).
Geoffrey Lawman, Co-founder of Approaches, Co-editor of Apropos, and Editor of Fatal Star, the autobiography of the great Hamish Fraser echoes that view: “Medjugorje weakens the message of Fatima, with its cardinal insistence on the conversion of Russia and of Communists a prerequisite for any peace and progress. Medjugorje talks airily of peace, but ignores the very precise recommendations that Our Lady of Fatima and the disastrous consequences that will follow if these are not complied with.” In fact, in Lawman’s view, Medjugorje “discredits the cult of Mary, and thus robs modern Catholicism of its finest spiritual flower. How do we expect Marian devotion to survive a ‘Lady’ of interminable verbosity who submits to indiscriminate ‘patting,’ incites her hearers to disobedience, and even stages a pantomime ‘transformation-scene’ between herself and Satan?” (“Medjugorje: The Other Side of the Coin,” quoted in Warning, p. 13). It would be quite a victory for Satan to so devalue the one destined to crush his head.
I am absolutely appalled at the exorbitant mortgage ($60,678 a year for 14 years) and the $800,000 loan). It is all the more disgusting because I have an Aunt, who converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism several years back, is a Medjugorje devotee, and has visited several times. I don’t know the ins and outs of why it is a hoax, other than the denunciations from the Bishop of Mostar, but alarm bells have started ringing because of the lifestyles of Ivan and the other seers who have profitted enormously.
Compare this with Fatima and Lourdes. Did Bl. Francisco, Bl. Jacinta and Bl. Lucia or St Bernadette Soubirous prosper? No!!! Two of the Fatima seers died of Spanish flu, Lucia became a Carmelite Nun and St Bernadette died of a severe incurable illness at the convent of Notre Dame in Nevers in 1879.
CatholicConvert1
Show your aunt the links in the comment by Pat above:
The Bishop of Mostar’s official English site:-
http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98
Diane Korziewski’s site (in support of legitimate authority):-
http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.co.uk
Marco Corvaglia’s site (also in support of legitimate authority):-
http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en
Plenty of evidence in these sites. If she rejects them, she’s too far gone and you can only pray. You’re spot on about the Fatima and Lourdes seers. In fact, if my memory serves me right, St Bernadette found that her little brother had been given a little cheap wooden toy by one of the pilgrims, and she made him return it. None of the genuine seers, or their families, profited by one penny. Read the excellent Memoirs of Sr Lucia, volumes I and II and you’ll see how Lucia and her family suffered the greatest financial hardships because of the apparitions, far from gaining financially from them. And yet these ‘seers’ from Medjugorje are all doing VERY nicely, with their ‘pilgrim’ accommodation and tours etc. Utterly scandalous.
I was sent this web site article today: http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/10153/media-rome-rules-on-medjugorje-in-2014 As it’s from a pro-Medjugorje site, I wouldn’t normally pay any attention to it – if a pro-Medj site told me the time I’d get a second opinion – but as it happens, I think that this probably will be the outcome. Rome appears to be petrified of the sheer numbers involved in the Medjugorje sect, and I think they are frightened of people formally separating from the Church over it. You’ve maybe seen that a similar conversation is going on over at Protect the Pope http://protectthepope.com/?p=9061 and how one of the Medj supporters, a Michael Petek, has said that he won’t accept a negative decision from the Medjugorje Commission, and sadly, this is what most of them are like, and Rome is too spineless and weak to stand up and speak the truth fearlessly. Yet again, it’s false charity, prompted by fear and human respect, dressed up as pastoral care, because hard evidence of false doctrine from ‘Our Lady’, lying and profiteering by the ‘seers’, and immorality and disobedience of some of the Franciscans has been in the public domain since the beginning. What more evidence do they need?
I think that Rome will probably let it run and that this Commission will come to an inconclusive verdict, probably stating that events are ongoing and can’t really be assessed until the death of the last seer. If that were to be Jakov Colo, he was the youngest, born in 1971, so is now 42, so he could easily live for another 40 years.
Even more worrying, I have fears that Rome may even come to a compromise decision over it, and regularise what they know to be an irregular situation, for pastoral reasons. I think it is a disastrous policy, but there are precedents:-
Opus Sanctorum Angelorum: founded on the false apparitions of Gabriele Bitterlich. Rome has tried to purge it of false elements and OSA agreed to drop these elements in return for official recognition, which it was granted, but since then Rome has had an uphill battle http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11699849 keeping them on the straight and narrow, as groups have wanted to return to the falsehoods of the foundress, who died in 1978. All Rome has seemingly done is cause scandal and confusion by giving a degree of respectability to what should have been condemned out of hand.
Legionaries of Christ/Regnum Christi: the founder, Fr Marcial Maciel, was lauded and feted by Pope John Paul II. Marcial’s crimes are now well-known, but instead of suppressing the whole order, Rome is still trying to keep the show on the road, but you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I suspect it will die a slow painful death, and cause damage to a lot of souls on the way. In my opinion, it should have been disbanded instead of trying to regularise it.
The Neocatechumenate: this error-riddled sect has been given some degree of approval by Rome, and attempts by Rome to rein in the more bizarre liturgical abuses have largely failed. Again, I think Rome are scared because of the huge numbers involved.
Sacred Scripture warns against trying to shore up something not of divine origin: “And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.” Anything that is built on falsehood or error is a house built on sand. It will fall, one way or another. The problem is, it often takes a lot of souls with it.
I’m also very concerned about what Cardinal Ratzinger said to Vittorio Messori in ‘The Ratzinger Report’ book:-
VM – On the same theme (Fatima), it is well known that for years, now, a village in Yugoslavia, Medjugorje, is at the center of world attention because of reported “apparitions” which – whether true or not – have already drawn millions of pilgrims. But they have also provoked deplorable conflicts between the Franciscans who govern the parish and the bishop of the local diocese. Is a clarifying statement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the highest court in this matter, to be expected, with, of course, the approval of the Pope, which is indispensable for each one of its documents?
JR – “In this area, more than ever, patience is the fundamental principle of the policy of our Congregation. No apparition is indispensable to the faith; Revelation terminated with Jesus Christ. He himself is the Revelation. But we can certainly not prevent God from speaking to our time through simple persons and also through extraordinary signs that point to the insufficiency of the cultures stamped by rationalism and positivism that dominate us. The apparitions that the Church has officially approved – especially Lourdes and Fatima – have their precise place in the development of the life of the Church in the last century. They show, among other things, that Revelation – still unique, concluded and therefore insurpassable – is not yet a dead thing but something alive and vital. Moreover – prescinding Medjugorje, on which I cannot express a judgment since the case is still being examined by the Congregation – one of the signs of our times is that the announcements of ‘Marian apparitions’ are multiplying all over the world. For example, reports are arriving from Africa and from other continents at the section of the Congregations that is competent to deal with such reports.”
VM – Besides the traditional element of patience and prudence, on what criteria does the Congregation base itself for a judgment, in the face of the multiplication of these facts?
JR – One of the criteria is to separate the aspect of the true or presumed ‘spirituality’ of the apparition from that of its spiritual fruits. The pilgrimages of ancient Christianity were often concentrated on places with respect to which our modern critical spirit would be horrified as to the ‘scientific truth’ of the tradition bound up with them. This does not detract from the fact that those pilgrimages were fruitful, beneficial, rich in blessings and important for the life of the Christian people. The problem is not so much that of modern hyper-criticism (which ends up later, moreover, in a form of new credulity), but it is that of the evaluation of the vitality and the orthodoxy of the religious life that is developing around these places.
Sorry, but I just can’t agree with this – what did the Cardinal mean – separating the true or presumed spirituality of the apparition from its spiritual fruits? Surely they can’t be separated? The origin is either from God, or it’s from a human or even diabolical source. But the fact that the Cardinal mentioned such a separation, suggests that a ‘roots versus fruits’ mentality exists, and that this type of compromise could be in the offing – but as has been demonstrated, this approach simply doesn’t work. I’ll be interested to see the outcome of this Commission. My money is on it not condemning or approving, just taking a waiting position. I’m sure that Rome will reiterate all the prohibitions on pilgrimages etc, etc, which will promptly be ignored by the Medjugorje industry, and it will be business as usual.
With regards to the LC/RC organisation and their evil and perverted founder, Marcial Macias, doesn’t it say in the Bible that an evil tree cannot bear good fruit?
As for the Neocatechumenal Way, or ‘Kikos’ as they are affectionately known are the most putrid and pestilent group in the Church. They totally ravage the Holy Mass. In the Way’s Masses, the congregation sits around the altar, as if in a circle, and they pass the body and blood around from person to person. Although, the group has around 1m members, it should be disbanded.
The Bishops of Japan wanted to ban it there. Funny how a perfectly legit order like the Franciscans of the Immaculate are denied their liturgical practices but the Kikoists get to keep theirs.
Miles Immaculatae,
Well said. Very well said. Spot on… Indeed, I’d say that is the original nutshell 🙂
Westminster Fly,
That’s very discouraging news. If it happens that the Vatican won’t ban the Medjugorje fantasy, then that would be a disgraceful dereliction of duty. They’d be guilty of participating in a lie. I honestly don’t see how things can get much worse.
Yes,
Matthew 7: 18 “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.” Certainly, God can bring good out of evil, and sometimes does, but we can never do or sanction or encourage evil, that good may come of it, which is why we must stay away from all these false apparitions, mystics and sects.
Its a sad fact that if you speak to anyone pro-Medugorje they are very defensive and seem to be oblivious of the rational arguments against it. They seem to be in this fog of spritual blindness which makes them lose their faculties.
Did I read somewhere on this blog or elsewhere that the devil has a place prepared for each one of us?(Getting very forgetful-or did I just dream it)
That thought is terrifying -just to know he has such power and knowledge. If that thought doesn’t make us reach for our rosary beads then nothing will!
Lord have mercy on us.
Clotilde,
Somebody did say that but I can’t remember who. St Teresa of Avila was taken and shown the place in Hell reserved for her. Her description is chilling – if you get my drift… “Chilling” we won’t be, if we end up in that awful place.
Legitimate authorities have warned against the faithful getting involved with this. I have read evidence that strongly suggests Medjugorje has the character of the demonic. If this is the case, then cooperation with the phenomena constitutes a kind of assent to it: The Devil wants to play with us, and God respects our free will, so if we play with the things of the Devil when we have been warned not to, then we make ourselves vulnerable to spiritual attack.
A friend of mine, who is very sound and certainly not given to flights of fancy, went to Medjugorje in the early days. I don’t think he realised that the bishop had condemned it at that stage. He told me that he witnessed something inexplicable there, which was very disturbing. I’d rather not repeat it, it was bizarre and very unpleasant. He sincerely believes it was a demonic manifestation of some kind. Needless to say, he never went back and has had nothing to do with it ever since.
I remember my very first encounter with Medjugorje. I’d heard about it but hadn’t paid too much attention to it. Some people involved in Medjugorje from the local parish had organised a coach to go to Westminster Central Hall to listen to Fr Slavko Barbaric OFM speak. I think possibly one of the ‘seers’ was with him but I can’t recall now. I thought I’d go just out of interest. Alarm bells rang that very first night for me. On the coach on the way there, we were introduced to the ‘Medjugorje rosary’. Basically, this ‘devotion’, which I’d never heard of before, consisted of praying the rosary, but in between each Hail Mary a brief scriptural or another type of quote was inserted. It completely destroyed the ability to be able to meditate during the decade, and so just turned the rosary into a load of words. I don’t know if this was specific to this Medjugorje group, or more widespread, but I wasn’t having any of it.
The evening itself was boring and long-winded and I came away feeling there was something very wrong. A very short while after, the late Fr Hugh Thwaites started to disseminate tracts from the bishop of Mostar, exposing Medjugorje as a fraud, and the rest is history.
Maybe Pope Francis is preparing the ground for bad news for Medjugorje enthusiasts after all . . . http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/pope-francis-our-lady-is-not-a-post-office-manager-who-sends-messages-every-day.html
I absolutely agree. What else could the Holy Father have been referring to if not Medjugorje? If he was indeed referring to Medjugorje (which he obviously was) then it would seem he was deriding it. This is excellent news.
These remarks plus the CDF comments prove the Vatican hasn’t succumb to this freak show. Whether they’ll let their opinion be known sometime soon is another matter. We’ve been waiting for this definitive pronouncement for ages now. I’ll believe it when I see it.
The commission last said it would give its findings in December 2012. So if there is going to be a pronouncement any time soon it could be next month. Lets hope so. And lets hope they communicate it and enforce it well. That is crucial.
Don’t expect die hard Medjugoristas to take notice of it though. I firmly believe the divergent Medjugorje movement will develop into a heretical and schismatic cult. Much like the Palmarian Catholics (Carmelites of the Holy Face) in Spain.
What will they call themselves? The “Franciscans of Our Lady Queen of Peace”? This is not too far fetched. Medjugorje has already inspired a cult movement: Caritas of Birmingham for example.
Then there will be those who will lose the faith due to disillusionment. I vow to treat these people with the greatest tenderness and charity. They have been foolish, but I think they are victims.
If a judgement of constat de non supernaturalitatae is determined, it is evident, based on all the evidence that the whole episode is preternatural, i.e. satanic. And if in light of this the seers do not repent, they must be cast out of the body of Christ, i.e. excommunicated (see Exodus 22:18)
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