Fatima Priest Harassed in Rome…
Watch the three short interviews with Fr Gruner below, and tell us what you think about his treatment at the hands of Vatican Security. Are you surprised?
13Nov
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Comments (106)
I haven’t watched all three videos, just the first one but no, I’m not surprised that poor Father Gruner has been harassed by Vatican security. He’s number one enemy due to his persistence in asking for the Russian Consecration and full Third Secret.
I look forward to seeing the second and third parts of the interview tomorrow.
All three videos are well worth watching. As you say “poor Fr Gruner” : Hans Kung is welcome in the Vatican but not Fr Gruner. You just couldn’t make it up…
Hans Kung wasn’t suspended like Fr Gruner and he was invited for a private meeting. Having said that, I bet Hans Kung didn’t wear clerical clothing. Why is Fr Gruner pretending to be a priest in good standing when he is suspended? He wasn’t inited to the Vatican and shouldn’t have been there because he shouldn’t be undertaking any ministry. I wonder who paid for his visit? I smell corruption.
Fr Gruner is his own worse enemy. What was he doing at the Vatican marian ceremonies when he is suspended and not allow to wear clerical attire or exercise any ministry whatsoever?
I wonder if Pope Francis knows that Fr. Gruner has been forbidden to draw near? Or has the instruction to the Security Services come from some jobsworth acting under the orders of the those whose aim is the introduction of The New World Order?
It would be interesting if Fr. Gruner could get one of his own, trusted, inside men to put that question to pope Francis.
I doubt very much if Fr Gruner has any “trusted inside men” close enough to speak to Pope Francis. I doubt that very much indeed.
I’ve just remembered that Leo posted a page containing the above three videos on another thread some weeks ago, There were no comments, sadly, at that time, so I presume there will be few this time either. Leo’s link, however, had an additional video, with the observation that the Vatican Security staff were not a t all bothered about keeping Buddhists away from the Pope:
I think Fr Gruner is always going to be unpopular in Rome until the Consecration of Russia is done. The Church is completely disoriented just now due to ecumenism so it’s not surprising that Buddhists are welcomed by the Pope and not Fr Gruner.
Buddhists= wolves in lamb’s clothing. An evil religion like Islam.
Ian Paisley and pastor Jack Glass used to go regularly to the Vatican and roar out that the Pope was the anti-Christ and nobody batted an eyelid. They are no better than the KGB.
Interesting fact but nothing to do with Fr Gruner’s case. I don’t believe Ian Paisley or Jack Glass ever got entry into Vatican city to do their dirty work.
Editor: Yes they did – here’s one report straight from one horse’s mouth
I think that even if Fr. Gruner were to talk to Pope Francis it would do no good. But he’s a hero for all of his efforts, that’s for sure. No one has done more for Our Lady’s cause and he is misunderstood and ill treated because he is the chief fighter for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.
I wonder, too, if the Pope knows the Third Secret or even if it, the spoken text, exists anymore. Or if it has been “lost” in the archives.
I used to think Sister Lucy meant that the Third Secret should be read in 1960 because it would be more clearly understood because of the revolution in the Church. But then again maybe the Secret was tampered with around that time and after 1960 it was unclear and so it needed to be read to the world while it was still complete.
It might be that Cardinal Bertone never saw the spoken text and that at the most they only knew it by word of mouth, another good way to muddy the waters.
I think anyone but Fr Gruner would be welcome in the Vatican – him and Bishop Fellay of course.
I am not so charitable about the Third Secret. I bet they’ve all read it but won’t act on it because it warns of the terrible aftermath of Vatican II and that is ideologically offensive to all those involved which means all the top men since the Council took place.
I haven’t yet watched the videos but am looking forward to hearing the details of the harassment.
I agree with you about the content for sure, but unless God prevented it, I can’t see why they wouldn’t tamper with the evidence. The commentary the Vatican released was beyond ridiculous.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the city of Rome is not mentioned. So many prophecies point to it’s destruction or nearly so. Fr. Malachi Martin said the secret states several chastisements, one of which is so terrible it really has not been expressed nor thought of. It seems he meant a “reckoning” as he called it. So we really owe Fr. Gruner our gratitude for trying so hard to help us.
This 1949 quote from Pope Pius XII is interesting: “If there should ever come a day –We say this as a matter of pure hypothesis –when the physical reality of Rome were to crumble; if ever this Vatican Basilica, the symbol of the one, invincible, and victorious Catholic Church, were to bury beneath its ruins the historical treasures and the sacred tombs it enshrines, even then the Church would not, by that fact, be overthrown or undermined; the promise of Christ to Peter would always remain true, the Papacy would continue unchanged, as well as the one, indestructible Church founded on the Pope alive at that time.”
If Fr Gruner wants to be made welcome at the Vatican then he needs to show obedience and obey his clerical suspension that was upheld by the highest roman court.
I seem to remember that Bishop Fellay was made welcome at the Vatican and chose to throw the hospitality back in the face of Pope Benedict.
Both men are their own worst enemies.
Our Lady’s E-Newsletter: November 2013
——————————————————————————–
Pope Francis to Meet Vladimir Putin
Pope Francis and Vladimir Putin will soon be sitting down face-to-face to discuss world affairs. (See: “Pope Francis to hold talks with Russian leader at Vatican”.) Other Russian leaders have met with popes in recent years, but Putin has distinguished himself from his predecessors by showing a marked sympathy for Russia’s past as a Christian nation.
While Putin’s personal beliefs may be a matter of speculation, and his sincerity open to doubt, it cannot be denied that he has taken a public posture that favors traditional Christian morality. He has been staunch in his opposition to homosexual propaganda, even at the cost of considerable public-relations pressure for the upcoming Winter Olympics. (See: “Russia will develop as democratic state, defend Christian values – Putin”.)
The meeting may be significant for another reason: there is an acknowledged possibility that Pope Francis may visit Russia. The bar to a papal visit in the past has not come from the Kremlin, but rather from a lack of invitation from the Russian Orthodox Church. The Russian Orthodox, however, have softened their stance against the Church of Rome in recent times and may welcome a visit by the Pope. (See: “Pope meeting Putin, could help mend Catholic-Orthodox relations”.)
We know that Russia has been chosen by Heaven to play a special role in salvation history. (See: http://www.fatima.org/consecrussia/) So any analysis of Russia’s interaction with the Vatican, and especially with the Pope, must allow that the workings of Providence may supersede the conclusions of human wisdom. Granting this, we can still examine situation in terms we can readily understand.
Russian leaders of church and state appear to realize how dire is the situation that prevails in Russian society: decades of official state atheism forced her to a breakdown in morality that has had, and continues to have, terrible consequences. The abortion rate is appalling. Alcoholism is epidemic. Life spans are short. The population is shrinking. (See: “History of Post-soviet Russia – Economic Depression and Social Decay” and “Duma Approves Bill Banning Abortion Ads” and “Russian Poison — Alcohol”.)
Unless trends are reversed, Russia will become a nation incapable of any constructive effort. Russian leaders want to find a means to counter contemporary decadence. They seem to have come to the same conclusion as the great Russian writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who saw Russia’s salvation in a return to her Christian roots. (See: “An Interview with Alexander Solzhenitsyn”.)
Some historical circumstances, which is simply another way of saying the Divine Plan, appear to have created the situation in which Russia and the West are coming closer together, but not through any political initiative, but through shared faith in Our Lord and Our Lady.
Pope Francis has consecrated his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. He clearly loves Our Lady. What is preventing him from performing the consecration of Russia as She requested? We cannot know at this point, but we can note that a growing sympathy between Russia and the West, based on those elements of Faith shared by the Orthodox and the Catholic may create an atmosphere in which prudential objections to a consecration may no longer be persuasive. Let us pray that this meeting between Pope Francis and Vladimir Putin may bring us closer to the day when Our Lady of Fatima will be obeyed and Her blessings will bring peace to our tormented world.
Get your FREE copy of The Fatima Crusader! Provide your name and mailing address on the form at https://secure.fatima.org/forms/crusader.asp or call toll-free 1-800-263-8160. There is NO OBLIGATION of any kind.
We must work and pray ever more fervently that the Holy Father and the bishops will heed the requests of Our Lady of Fatima. (See: Petition to Our Holy Father — The Consecration of Russia and Petition to Our Holy Father — The Release of the full Third Secret.)
We must also keep informed. Read the recent “Fatima Perspectives” articles listed below.
Vatican Turns Off the Apparitions Tap
There are doubtless many devout people who have become very attached to what they believe to be messages received from Our Lady through the seers of Medjugorje. With all due respect to the pious intentions of those who may believe in these apparitions, it has to be said that there are plausible reasons for doubting the authenticity.
The episcopal investigation by the diocese where the alleged apparitions occurred concluded that no evidence of a supernatural event can be discovered, and therefore, the apparitions and the messages supposedly delivered to the seers were not to be credited to Our Lady. (See: “Bishop of Medjugorje . . . Declares Apparitions Are Not Real”.)
Despite the warning of the local bishop, people continued to flock to Medjugorje and the cult grew exponentially. Even a growing number of scandals involving the seers and the clergy failed to dissuade devotion. (See: “Medjugorje: The Actual Situation Today (March 2010)”.)
Now, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has intervened. As one of the seers is poised to begin a tour in the United States, the Apostolic Nuncio, Archbishop Vigano, has relayed an instruction to the secretary of the United States Catholic Bishops Conference forbidding Catholics to participate in devotional gatherings centered on the Medjugorje apparitions. (See: “Vatican gives firm thumbs-down to ‘seers’ of Medjugorje”.)
One of the curious aspects of these tours by the Medjugorje seers is the promise that those who come to see them will witness an apparition, or rather, will witness the seer experiencing an apparition. The claim appears presumptuous, to say the least, and in itself should be enough to cast doubt on the whole proceeding.
Meanwhile, Our Lady’s apparitions at Fatima, honored by the Church as authentic, must compete for attention with such dubious phenomena as Medjugorje and other alleged apparitions. One may be permitted to wonder who benefits by the spreading of unapproved and doubtful apparitions. We would do well to stick to whatever is certain.
If we wish to honor Our Lady, let us do as She asks. We can perform the First Saturday Devotions as Our Lady requested (see: “First Saturday Communion of Reparation Checklist”) and we can pray with all our hearts that at long last the Holy Father and the bishops of the Catholic Church will consecrate Russia as our Lady of Fatima has commanded.
Even though Russia is chosen by God to chastise the world Sr. Lucia spoke of Our Lady’s great love for that country. This inspired Sr. Lucia to also love Russia. It’s fascinating, and mysterious.
What brings the Pope and Bishops to finally make the consecration? It’s to be done in order to “save” Russia. Does that mean to convert it to the Catholic Faith and also perhaps save it from some material catastrophe?
3LittleShepherds,
We have Our Lady’s promise that Russia will be converted to the Faith after the Consecration. Material chastisements are a different kettle of consequences altogether, and Sr Lucia said somewhere that she was not concerned with such (words to that effect).
In haste, so if I’ve got it wrong… well… someone is sure to point it out 🙂
Editor, Just talking about what moves the Pope to consecrate Russia. Like what draws his attention to Russia. If they had famine, war, nuclear disasters, etc. this might be why they would actually consecrate the nation. The Consecration is to bring about Russia’s conversion, but many people think something will push them to actually do the act of consecration.
Russia spreading her errors didn’t move them, not yet.
I wasn’t saying the Consecration was willed by heaven to prevent a material chastisement. And how you could think I would, really! (I’m practicing my new get tough replies.) 🙂 (I’m copying Athanasius from now on when I’m misunderstood, he was so good at it)
You mean this Editor:
Sr. Lucia’s interview with Fr. Fuentes, she says to him,
“Por esto, Padre, no es mi misión indicarle al mundo los castigos materiales que ciertamente vendrán sobre la tierra si el mundo antes no hace oración y penitencia. No. Mi misión es indicarles a todos el inminente peligro en que estamos de perder para siempre nuestra alma si seguimos aferrados al pecado.”
That’s it! It is not her mission to tell the world about material punishments but to tell us that we will lose our souls if we persist in sin.
3LittleShepherds,
Love your new tough replies!
And, yes, I know what you mean – sounds like something very serious happens that makes the Pope consecrate Russia, I agree. I think we get that impression from the part of the Third Secret revealed (“Bishop in white”, bodies, bows and arrows….) But I’ve heard people suggest that this may be the picture of what WILL happen if the Consecration is not done and so maybe if there is a grave threat, such as a third world war imminent, then the Pope will consecrate.
I must say, watching the news bulletins about the Philippines, when I heard one broadcaster say that they had no houses, no hospitals, no schools, no shops, nothing, I did find myself asking: “is this not the annihilation of a nation?” However, Fr Gruner argues that by “annihilation of nations” (as opposed to “states”) Our Lady meant “peoples” not just places. So if that is true, we’re not at that final stage of annihilation of whole peoples yet. There is, therefore, hope that the Pope will see such events unfolding and decide that the time has come to do as Our Lady asked and consecrate Russia before he ends up being the “bishop in white” described in the Third Secret. I know I would!
I stress, however, that I don’t know. Like Cephas, I’m no expert on this – though I’m an expert on other things such as being glamorous, slim, witty, etc.:-) .
I have to admit, I am a complete dunce when it comes to the third secret of Fatima (even though I have read the newsletter and blog for a while now). What does the community at Fatima say about the third secret? Millions go on pilgrimage every year to Fatima and are welcomed and administered to by the community there. Surely these people have a special devotion to our lady and her messages. What do they say? Do they promote the consecration of Russia? I have never been and as I have said I am absolutely no expert, I simply look for help in understanding. Thank you.
Cephas,
This is a flying visit with time only to post a new think from the Fatima website, a timeline with a brief summary of everything about Fatima.
I’ll try to post something later or at some point tomorrow but would like to think this is of use in the meantime. I’d even go so far as to say that once you’ve read this timeline, you will definitely be an expert 🙂
Thank you very much Madam editor, I will have a good read just now
Pleasure, Cephas. Let me know if you find the link helpful.
The three videos are well worth watching. I agree with Michaela that it is no wonder that Fr. Gruner has been harassed by the Vatican security, who issued specific instructions that he was not to speak to Pope Francis.
Father is faithful to Our Lady in asking that the Consecration of Russia be done and that the 3rd Secret be revealed.
Leprechaun,
You are right to ask the question as to who issued those orders. But I also wonder who told the Pope not to consecrate the world. Yet it is Russia who is to be consecrated and not the world.
Fr. Gruner mentions in the 3rd video “That that there is a major force outside the Church which is threatening the Church in a major way against the Church”.
Perhaps this link might give some answer to that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jHdvAt_aAs
Since Pope Benedict XV (1914/1922), Our Lady appeared at Fatima during his watch. There have been 8 Popes since that time and not one has consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Though some have consecrated the world. And the Third Secret has yet to be revealed.
But the Consecration of Russia will be done.
Thankyou Theresa Rose for this video.
I haven’t read any of Fr. malachi’s books but will certainly do so . How did we get this far down the road? The talk by Suzanne certainly lifts the veil on why Our Lady’s concecration must be done soon.
If the Pope is not willing it is up to the faithful to pray that he receives the grace to do it but it looks limpoosible at the moment. We cant just blame the forces of nature anymore. God help us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary spare us.
Our Lady of Guadadupe was named Patron of Latin America by Pope Pius X in 1910. So this includes Argentina.
It is also interesting that she is very similar to the woman in chapter 12 of the Apocalypse who gives birth to a child destined to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Some commentators on the Apocalypse interpret that as a papal election and that the Pope does something to cause the dragon, the devil, to be thrown out of heaven, the Church.
Who knows. But it’s interesting. Some Pope will be repent and consecrate Russia.
This is from wikipedia:
The iconography of the Virgin is fully Catholic: [28] Miguel Sanchez, the author of the 1648 tract Imagen de la Virgen María, described her as the Woman of the Apocalypse from the New Testament’s Revelation 12:1, “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,”. [20][29]
“[W]hat is rarely mentioned is that the frame which surrounded the canvas was lowered to leave almost no space above the Virgin’s head, thereby obscuring the effects of the erasure.” [30] She is described as a representation of the Immaculate Conception. [20]
That’s from the wikipedia entry on Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Yes Little Shepherds, Our Lady of Guadaloupe came to the rescue of the S Americans when they slaughtered millions in order to appease the Sun God.Her image is in front of the sun to show how the natives must now pray to to the true God through Mary the Mother of God. I hope that she will now come their rescue and ours again to rid us of the killing of the unborn.
Some of us pray the rosary every week at 3pm on a Friday, outside the main general hospital where some abortions are performed.
I also read that she was made patron of the unborn by Pope John Paul and I think one of the Pope’s made her a patron of the Philippines. And they have recently been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart which they needed desperately. They have some kind of terrible abortion laws, right? And every kind of natural disasters, earthquakes, typhoons, flooding, and I believe disease carrying mosquitoes!
I hope the people there all turn to Our Lady and live that consecration.
3 Little Sheperds
Yes, One of the Bishops consecrated his province Alday(I think) to The Immaculate Heart of Mary 10 years ago and it has been spared from the worst of the typhoon as the winds were less even though it is in the east which usually bears the brunt of the storms. As far as I know they have been fighting against the introduction of abortion and those who which to inflict reproductive rights on the people as we have in the west.
To me this sounds like a whole load of fabricated nonsense and high jinx. FR GRUNER IS SUSPENDED AND HE KNOWS IT. He appealed against his suspension to the apostolic signature (highest vatican court) which upheld it. So he obviously knows that he was suspended otherwise he couldn’t have appealed the decision. He may deny or even have managed to avoid being served any papers but that doesn’t stop the appeal decision being upheld, valid and legal. It’s beyond belief that he is unaware of the appeal decision or made any attempt to find out the outcome. All he has to do is google his name to find out that he is suspended. As he i s suspended he shouldn’t be wearing a clerical collar or cassock, saying mass or being involved in any kind of priestly ministry. To do so incurs the penalty of excommunication. Furthermore to try and use a religious ceremony as a stunt to wave a huge banner advocating an erroneous belief is nothing short of campaigning which is inappropriate and shameful.
I don’t even think the accounts portrayed constitute harassment. He was quite reasonably questioned about his presence and asked not to present himself to the pope, as is the right and duty of Vatican security. Presumably he would have used such an encounter as a photo opportunity to publicise his erroneous beliefs further. If I had been in charge of Vatican security, he would have had his clerical collar publically removed and escorted off Vatican grounds. I assume they didn’t want to create a scene so let him be but hopefully his name is on a Vatican blacklist somewhere so in the future he won’t get a chance to enter Vatican city ever again.
Why is the blog-site supporting and giving publicity to a suspended priest?
If Fr. Gruner seeks the Lord, who are you and I to judge?
Are you actually saying Fr. Gruner has NO RIGHT to follow his conscience?
Why don’t you listen to Pope Francis and try to understand rather than to judge so harshly?
Waynekelland
Fr Gruner is not suspended and I’m sure YOU know it – you can read all about him if you follow this link http://www.fatimapriest.com/content.html
If you had been in charge of Vatican security he would have had his clerical collar publicly removed and escorted off Vatican grounds. My, my, what a tough statement. Would you have publicly removed the collars of the many scores of paedophile priests who may have been in the crowd and who have caused so much grief for the ordinary Catholics in their places of work? No I didn’t think so. If Russia has indeed been consecrated, then when can we expect Our Lady to fulfill her promises? I don’t know too much about Fr Gruner but anything I have learned through you would hardly put me against him. At least he won’t be the centre of scandal in any of the world’s media outlets for flying a banner with a message from Our Lady.
Please don’t put words in my mouth or assume my response.
Yes I would actually. If any priests who were under suspension for child abuse claims (proven or false) were in a clerical collar (which is against the prohibition imposed by suspension) and/or undertaking ministry (private or public) then I would have had the collar removed and had them escorted off Vatican property. Afterwards they would be the subject of further sanctions for disobeying the suspension – just the same as Fr Gruner.
Having said that please don’t deflect the subject by making comparisons with other’s wrongdoing. This is about Fr Gruner’s wrongdoing for which he has been tried, appealed to the highest roman court and has no further legal recourse except to recant and obey his bishop.
In Fr Gruner’s third video, he mentions Catherine Pearson’s talk at the 2010 Fatima Conference in which she gave 6 reasons why the Consecration of Russia not been done. So have found the link, Catherine Pearson does mention these reasons which come in about the 23rd minute onwards. Surprisingly, one of the last reasons seems to be – some external threat to the Church if Russia is consecrated. See what you think.
I finally got around to watching this and it is very scary. A friend of my Dad grew up with Fr. Malachi Martin and so knew him well. The friend said that this priest “is a mystery” and he was “so changed after returning from Rome”. Apparently he seemed haunted by something.
Lily – FR GRUNER IS SUSPENDED. HE APPEALED AGAINST THE SUSPENSION TO THE HIGHEST CHURCH COURT IE THE APOLOSTOLIC SIGNATURE WHICH UPHELD THE DECISION SO THERE IS NO DOUBT IN THIS MATTER OF FACT. He may be free to follow his conscience but not under the mis-representation and lie of being a catholic priest in good standing which he clearly is not. He is also not free to do as he likes in Vatican city which is an independent state which can restrict his presence or actions within it’s territory as it see fit. This is precisely why even Cardinal Burke (a highly conservative prelate) refused to be present at the above mentioned conference during which Fr Gruner was scheduled to speak.
Father Gruner is not suspended. He has not committed any crime in church law that would allow him to be suspended. The link Theresa Rose gave is very clear and I’m copying it here:
FROM THE COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE PRIESTHOOD
“FATIMA PRIEST” IS NOT SUSPENDED
On September 12th Cardinal Castrillòn Hoyos of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Clergy purported to “confirm” a suspension of Father Nicholas Gruner, the Canadian priest who preaches the Message of Our Lady of Fatima, by the Bishop of Avellino, Italy. The Vatican itself imposed no “suspension”, but merely claims to be confirming what the Bishop of Avellino did.
Father Gruner cannot be “suspended” by the Bishop of Avellino for at least three reasons.
First, Church law (Can. 1321) provides that no one can be punished unless he has actually committed some offense with malice or culpability. The only “offense” which underlies the “suspension” is Father Gruner’s alleged failure to “return” to Avellino (where he was ordained in 1976) after he “failed” to find another bishop to incardinate him. However, members of the same Congregation which now announces Father Gruner’s “suspension” have personally intervened over the years to block three offers of incardination by different bishops outside of Avellino, all of whom wanted to foster Father Gruner’s Fatima apostolate.
Thus, Father Gruner’s accusers have created the very “offense” of which they now accuse him. One cannot be guilty of an “offense” caused entirely by the actions of others. The “suspension” is thus plainly void and a mockery of Catholic justice.
Second, the “suspension” purports to be based on Father Gruner’s failure to “to “obey” an order to “return” to Avellino and take up permanent residence in Italy after he was prevented by Vatican officials from finding another bishop. However, Father Gruner cannot reside in Italy without violating Italian immigration law. Since 1978 the Bishop of Avellino has taken no steps to secure a proper visa for Father Gruner, including written promises of a living wage, a pension and medical coverage. Indeed, the Bishop of Avellino has not provided one penny of support for Father Gruner since he gave him permission to leave Avellino 25 years ago. Why? Because the Bishop of Avellino himself is not interested in Father Gruner’s “return”, which has been orchestrated by a few Vatican officials who are interfering in the normal relations between a priest and his bishop.
Quite simply, then, Father Gruner cannot be “ordered” to enter Italy as an illegal alien. Under Canon 22 the Church agrees to be bound by applicable civil law on immigration. Since Father Gruner cannot be forced to do what is illegal under civil law, his “suspension” is groundless.
Third, even if there were a valid decree of suspension, in her mercy the Church recognizes that one is excused from a penalty if it was impossible or even “gravely inconvenient” to comply with the law that was allegedly violated. (Can. 1323) For example, one does not have to go to Mass on Sunday if one is ill.
It would be impossible, and certainly gravely inconvenient, for Father Gruner to enter Italy as an illegal alien at the age of 59, leaving behind his life’s work, his home and all his personal affairs, and reside until death in a diocese which has made no provision for his support or old age and has never had a canonical mission for him because he cannot even speak the local dialect. Not even notoriously heretical or child-molesting priests have been subjected to such a harsh, unprecedented penalty.
Finally, even if Father Gruner were validly “suspended” (which is not admitted), he is perfectly entitled to carry on non-priestly duties such as publishing books and magazines, organizing or speaking at conferences, or directing a private Apostolate. (Canons 321-323) Even Hans Kung, one of the most notorious heretics in living memory, remains a priest in good standing who continues to speak and publish whatever heresy he likes ù including the claim in his latest book that the papacy has no foundation in Scripture. Obviously, therefore, a wholly orthodox priest like Father Nicholas Gruner, who has done nothing wrong, has the right to teach sound Catholic orthodoxy concerning the Message of Fatima ù whether or not he is declared “suspended.”
Indeed, it is Father Gruner’s legitimate teaching on Fatima to which his persecutors in the Vatican apparatus really object. Silencing any further call for the Consecration of Russia is what the “case” against Father Gruner is really about, although his persecutors can hardly admit this. The heresies of Kung and innumerable others like him in the priesthood do not alarm these Vatican officials, who do little or nothing to stop the spread of heresy. But the Message of Fatima, endorsed by God and approved by the Catholic Church, does seem to alarm them greatly ù why else would they announce Father Gruner’s “suspension” on a trumped-up charge only hours after the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001? Have they no shame?
In their compulsion to silence Father Gruner at all costs, these Vatican officials trample on Canon 221: “Christ’s faithful have the right that no canonical penalties be inflicted upon them except in accordance with the law.” The law has not been followed, but rather perverted, in the case of Father Nicholas Gruner. And the result is that not only he, but the whole Church suffers detriment from a public travesty of justice: the guilty roam free while an innocent man is punished. Even worse, the right of the faithful to seek the truth about Fatima is denied. (Canon 748) THIS IS END OF THE LINK ARTICLE
I copied this fact to emphasise:
“Even Hans Kung, one of the most notorious heretics in living memory, remains a priest in good standing who continues to speak and publish whatever heresy he likes ù including the claim in his latest book that the papacy has no foundation in Scripture”
You need to ask yourself why a priest like Fr Gruner who is devoted to Our Lady could be treated as badly as he is, while a public heretic like Kung is still a “priest in good standing.”
Josephine – the info from the link you have provided is incorrect and misleading. It is a fabrication of the truth proposed by Fr Gruner.
1) Fr Gruner’s bishop can and has suspended him, presumably for deserting his diocese without due permission and refusing to return when ordered to do so. Priests are no free entities. They cannot go wherever they wish to undertake whatever ministry they wish. They must work under episcopal oversight. They are obliged to be incardinated into a diocese or religious order.
2) Cardinal Hoyos from the Congregation of the Clergy has confirmed that Fr Gruner is suspended. This situation occurred because Fr Gruner appealed his suspension by his diocesan bishop to the highest Vatican court – the Apostolic Signature. His appeal was heard and the decision was upheld.
3) The Vatican do not need to add any additional penalty because by continuing to undertake a priestly ministry and wear clerical clothing Fr Gruner has in effect excommunicated himself. A decree of excommunication is not necessary as Fr Gruner has brought this state of affairs upon himself by his actions – according to canon law. Publishing books or undertaking speaking engagements are not private acts and do contradict the terms of his suspension.
4) Hans Kung has nothing to do with Fr Gruner’s situation or circumstances. Fr Gruner is the only one responsible for his predicament. Nevertheless, Hans Kung has not contradicted his religious superiors or deserted his post. If he had done so, he would also have been suspended, and if he continued to obey his religious superiors then he would also be excommunicated.
Waynekelland,
You sure make Cardinal Burke appear intolerant. If you mean that the Cardinal wouldn’t even listen to someone else’s opinions because he disagrees! That sounds like intolerance to me.
And if you mean that the Cardinal wouldn’t listen to a speech Fr. Gruner gave because the Cardinal thought Fr. Gruner was suspended, would Cardinal Burke have listened to St. Athanasius?
It’s not a matter of listening to Fr Gruner or allowing him to express his viewpoint, he does that anyway even though he has been disciplined against doing so. You don’t need to attend a conference to hear him speak in order to know what Fr Gruner’s opinions are – it’s a matter of the public record and all over the internet.
Cardinal Burke didn’t attend the conference because his presence there would have given credibility to Fr Gruner’s erroneous beliefs and given the impression that Fr Gruner is a priest in good standing legitimately exercising his ministry with the authority of his bishop. Cardinal Burke didn’t think that Fr Gruner is suspended, Cardinal Burke knew it to be true because it is a fact that he is no longer incardinated to any diocese and his suspension and prohibition of priestly ministry has been unheld by the highest court of the Apostolic Signature (of which Cardinal Burke is the head). If you are under any doubt, write to the curia and ask for a written clarification.
I read Fr Gruner’s webpage about his faculties and it is a joke. He refuses to return to his previously incardinated diocese and report to his bishop under the excuse that he cannot enter Italy as an immigrant. However, he was able to go Vatican city for the recent marian ceremonies so obviously he is actually able to travel to Italy and speak with his bishop as he has been ordered to do so. Fr Gruner doesn’t get to decide what pastoral work he undertakes, he is appointed to a position by his bishop and does so under his vows of priestly obedience. Currently he is working without any episcopal oversight – he is nothing more than a rogue and fly-by-night priest. I am not making that judgement. It is the reality of the situation by determination of the highest canonical court of the catholic church and there is no further right to appeal. Fr Gruner needs to stop pretending to act as a priest and meet his bishop and be obedient if he wants his faculties reinstated.
And what about St. Athanasius? We all know that he was unjustly excommunicated.
Do you think that something like that can never happen again? Do you think that Cardinal Burke even has a chance of being wrong or ill-informed about the matter?
What side would you have taken in St. Athanasius’ excommunication?
3LittleShepherds,
“And what about St. Athanasius? We all know that he was unjustly excommunicated.”
No, that’s the trouble. Far too many Catholics DON’T know that St Athanasius was excommunicated, fewer still know that he was “unjustly” excommunicated and even fewer still know that he was unjustly excommunicated TWICE!
Gimme patience with these attackers of Fr Gruner. None of us is perfect, of course, but to attack Fr Gruner when there are so many priests causing horrendous scandals who remain “in good standing” not to mention that they are protected and promoted, just leaves me speechless.
Cardinal Burke doesn’t think Fr Gruner is suspended, he knows it because it is a fact and a reality that Fr Gruner refuses to accept.
Fr Gruner is not St Athanasius and has nothing to do with Fr Gruner’s predicament. Fr Gruner is not a great theologian or Doctor of the church. Fr Gruner is not involved in a great fight against a doctrinal heresy by the Arians. Fr Gruner’s writing are not well regarded by the church fathers across the east and west. Fr Gruner is not a bishop like Athanasius, he is priest who refuses to accept the episcopal oversight of his bishop. No similarities whatsoever.
Well, there was a Cardinal present at the conference I attended in Rome. And he was delighted with what he heard, asking particularly for certain tapes of the talks.
Cardinal Burke’s opinion is of no consequence to me after his cowardly withdrawal from the Pro Pontifice conference some years ago, under pressure from “liberals”. Of no interest whatsoever. If he arrived at my front door, soaked to the skin, shaking his soaking umbrella and saying it was pouring with rain, I’d go to the window to double check.
You keep repeating the falsehoods about Fr Gruner despite the data posted by Josephine and Theresa Rose above. Travelling to Italy for a short visit is quite different from moving there to live, or hadn’t you notice that? I’ve been to Rome three times, but wouldn’t possibly be able to live there. Not only do I not speak Italian, I wouldn’t have a clue about the various dialects, However, your failure to acknowledge the legitimate reasons given to explain Father Gruner’s situation makes manifest your bad faith. You don’t mind peddling lies about this priest – why? Are you into the Medjugorje hoax? Is that it? That’s what I’ve found in the past. Those who hate Fr Gruner love the imaginary lady of Muddygorje. Gimme strength.
I’m not a follower of the nonsense that is Muddygorgye thank you very much. I keep repeating that Fr Gruner is suspended because that is a canonical fact which cannot honestly be denied. It is you is peddling lies and distorting the facts in order to deceive people of good faith. Fr Gruner doesn’t have to immigrate to Italy, he can just travel there and speak with his bishop – that at least would be a measure of goodwill and a start in the right direction. He then needs to accept his bishop’s instructions and do whatever he is told in order to resume any priestly ministry. This former priest was originally incardinated into that diocese so the fact that he can’t speak fluent Italian obviously wasn’t an issue then and isn’t now.
Here’s an excerpt from one Cardinal’s memoirs:
” The prophecy of Fatima was completely defied! It is a lack of sense, I would say because according to the interpretation that seems to me most worthy of consideration, the Third Secret – which John XXIII and his successors thought inopportune to reveal – is not about a supposed conversion of Russia, still far from becoming a reality, but regards the ‘revolution’ in the Catholic Church.
From a Council convened to throw light on the beauty and profundity of the Christian mystery by presenting the Church as the spouse of Christ, according to the beautiful words of the same Pope John XXIII, so many innovations were born that they appear to constitute a true internal revolution.
(Silvio Oddi,Il Tenero Mastino di Dio,Rome: Progetto Museali Editore, 1995, p. 217-218).
This was from Cardinal Oddi’s book. The problem with Fr. Gruner is simply that some high ranking members of the Church want to silence the message of Fatima because it reveals them. It points out to the average Catholic that God is extremely displeased with those who would try to reinvent the Church and use it for their own purposes. The enemies of Our Lord want to shut him up. That’s not going to happen.
Father Gruner has good lawyers. He knows what he can and cannot do under various laws. He has good Catholic lawyers.
I haven’t checked your source which can’t be an original source because it is dated after Oddi’s death. I imagine it is a secondary source of doubtful reliability. However, Cardinal Oddi may have had an opinion but the Pope decided otherwise.
Fr Gruner doesn’t need good lawyers, catholic or otherwise. WHAT IS IT THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND. He has been suspended from priestly ministry and the decision upheld by the Roman Rota of the Apostolic Signatura – the highest Vatican court which has the authority of the Roman Pontiff. There is no further appeal or legal recourse open to him except to recant and obey his bishop. Since he refuses to accept his fate and continues to pretend to be a cleric in good standing in order to continue his erroneous ministry, he has excommunicated himself. You cannot be a priest if you are excommunicated, surely even you can get that into your thick head.
Waynekelland,
That’s incorrect, Cardinal Oddi died in 2001.
Apologies if that is so however I bet he didn’t write that book himself and it is a secondary (likely unreliable) source.
You admit that you don’t know why he was suspended. There was no reason given for his suspension – his bishop didn’t suspend him, nobody else admits to having suspended him. And you call ME a “thick head”?
You cannot be suspended from priestly ministry for no reason.
I’ll leave it there.
Comment removed.
Note: every comment with a nasty personal remark, will be deleted.
His bishop did suspend him. He was required to return to his diocese in 30 days or face the penalty. He didn’t return so he was suspended. He didn’t like the decision so he appealed it to the highest roman court consisting of 5 cardinals who upheld the decision. But he still won’t accept the decision. He still does not abide by the suspension and continues to wear clerical attire and undertake priestly ministry so he’s basically excommunicated himself. Then he wonders why Vatican security tap him on the shoulder and ask him what he’s doing there and politely warn him not to cause any scene. Unbelievable!
Tell me – after going to the Vatican for the marian ceremonies, why didn’t he report to his diocese and speak with his bishop? He obviously can return to Italy despite what he claims before. I’d also be interested to know, who paid for his travel and expenses and does his ‘ministry’ have audited accounts? The whole thing sounds like a sham. Beware.
Editor: absolutely NONE of the above is true. You persist in error, rejecting the known truth. Unbelievable.
Waynekelland,
As Lily has said, Fr Gruner is not suspended and she has provided a link. I agree with her, but, if you still disagree, perhaps this link will help.
http://www.fatimapriest.com/contro03.html
Now, I wonder what you mean when you say:
“To me this sounds like a whole load of fabricated nonsense and high jinx”.
Fr Gruner had tickets to attend events in Rome. Fr. Gruner alone was singled out to be evicted from them.
As he said himself, he had no intention of speaking to Pope Francis. Father caused no trouble at all.
He was with others, who carried banners which asked the Pope to Consecrate Russia now. Why is that so terrible?
That Our lady appeared to 3 children at Fatima six times in 1917, culminating with the Miracle of the Sun and reported by the secular press at the time. Our Lady made a request that the Pope and Bishops consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. If carried out, it would see Russia’s conversion along with a period of peace.
If not, Russia would spread her errors through out the world. The apparitions happened in May through to October 1917. What happened in Russia in 1917? The Russian revolution happened in which communistic atheism took control.
There is certain hatred about the apparitions at Fatima. Our Lady prophesied about communistic errors being transported around the world. And of course, disasters. Lucia the eldest of the three children as an adult was asked to write what has become known as the Third Secret, which should have been made public about 1960 or upon the death of Sister Lucia, whichever came first. This has never been done. This Secret seems to have been buried deep within the Vatican. Amongst those who do not wish people to know about Fatima are some of the Hierarchy within the Vatican.
Fabricated nonsense and high jinx. I don’t think so. But there are no reasons why you might not want to say what you think about Fatima.
Waynekelland
You dont need to emphasise your words with capitals or are you trying to convince yourself?
Fr, gruner is in good standing and that has been discussed ad nauseam on this blog if you have ever followed it.it is a red herring which youare trying to bring in so that you can ignore the vital work that Fr. Gruner is doing to bring the truth about Fatima to the people in and out of the vatican.
Sister Lucia was kept away from people and treated badly by the heirarchy because they didnt want the secret to be revealed. It was supposed to be given before 1960.(Before Vat 2) We all know that it must be about the loss of faith brought about by the way that vat 2 has changed church teaching; the changes to the Mass, false ecumenism, and the undermining of the authority of the Pope.
Happy Feast Day of St. Margaret of Scotland everyone
Thanks Clotilde, but I still celebrate that on the 10th June !
There is obviously need to use capitals because FR GRUNER IS SUSPENDED AND NOT A PRIEST IN GOOD STANDING THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE EXERCISING ANY KIND OF MINISTRY WHATSOEVER. HE HAS NO VALID FACULTIES AND IS BEING DISHONEST PRETENDING OTHERWISE. This a matter of fact not opinion, whether you like this reality or not. I followed the link given and it shows no discussion lest proof to the contrary. There is no further appeal following the final decision of the Apostolic Signature so Fr Gruner’s suspension is valid and legally definitive. Furthermore, in continuing to exercise his priestly ministry and deliberately misleading the faithful that he is a priest in good standing when he objectively is not, he incurs a penalty of excommunication against himself. Presumably if Fr Gruner is able to make the necessary steps to act in accordance with his bishop and become incardinated again but he chooses not to. Ask Fr Gruner for a copy of his celebret and by his own admission he cannot show it to you because he does not have one because he is not incardinated and he is suspended from exercising his priestly, or any, ministry.
Vatican security acted entirely correctly to let Fr Gruner know that he should not attempt anything unwise at these papal events. He is a suspended priest and thus should not be wearing clerical attire or a cassock – this is why they singled him out. Given his history of non obedience, his presence at these papal events was inappropriate and i’m not surprised attracted suspicion and attention.
Waynekelland,
You need to tell us what Fr Gruner did that, in Canon Law, incurred the penalty of excommunication. Once we know that, we can proceed.
I was actually present in Rome at one of the Fatima Conferences when Father’s lawyer read out a letter from his Archbishop affirming that he is incardinated in the Archdiocese of (can’t spell it!) in India. He is, in fact, a priest in good standing, albeit unpopular with the Modernists who have a stranglehold on the Vatican right now.
But if you have evidence to the contrary – let’s hear it. What did he do to incur such a penalty. Of what crime is he guilty?
I don’t exactly know he was suspended and neither do I need to know because his appeal against the decision was upheld by the Apostolic Signature, the highest court of the catholic church to which there is no further appeal – the decision is definitive. I accept the judgement of the Apostolic Signature which acts under the full authority of the Roman Pontiff.
Presumably Fr Gruner was originally suspended for not following the lawful directives of his bishop. He appears to have been working away from his diocese without permission and refused to return when ordered to do so by his bishop. The fact that he continues to exercise a doubtful ministry and wear clerical clothing while being under suspension means he incurs excommunication – that is what he is guilty of under canon law. He is no longer incardinated under the Archdiocese in India – to be incardinated requires the agreement of the originating diocese which he does not have. The decision of the AS means that ‘Father’ Gruner is de facto acting against the express wishes of the Pope.
Why don’t you write to the Pope asking for the “consecration of Russia”? That might remind him on the topic?…
Lionel,
Not only have we all written to the Pope many times, but when Pope Benedict came to the UK, a group of us travelled to Birmingham, and with the help of the Police there, we were given a prime spot where we were able to stand with our posters, professionally produced, on “sticks” which we held up. They were printed in both German and English (some in German and some in English) – with a beautiful picture of Our Lady of Fatima in the corner. I happened to be holding one of the German posters and as the Pope cruised past, he looked directly at my poster (as the lovely lady beside me kept squealing: he’s reading your poster, he’s reading your poster….) then his eye went right along the line of the rest of our group scattered along from me, and he seemed to be reading each one – which meant he read over and over again: “Holy Father, please consecrate Russia to Our Lady to obtain world peace!”
All agreed that his expression was very serious as he read our posters. But he still didn’t consecrate Russia and then he went and resigned on us. What does that tell you, Lionel? That we spent our time, money and energy to no good purpose? Not at all. It tells you that the laity are doing what we can, when we can but that, to date, the devil is winning.
He’ll lose in the end, of course, and it’s that thought which keeps us going!
Waynekelland,
What process did the Apostolic Signatura investigate the case of Fr Gruner? Who exactly complained of Fr Gruner and upon what grounds did they do so?
Fr Gruner is in for a pounding over this “suspension” because of his work regarding Our Lady of Fatima and asking that the Consecration of Russia be done as Our Lady requested.
Here is another link on what Fr Gruner has done showing that he is not suspended.
http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/recourse.asp
The links you make are full of nonsense gobbledegook and unbelievable excuses. The Apostolic Signatura would have followed it’s normal processes. They would have held his case because Fr Gruner himself appealed against the suspension by his bishop – that is why it is beyond belief that Fr Gruner cannot know that his suspension is upheld.
Let’s call a spade, a spade here. Fr Gruner is actually Mr Gruner now. He is no longer a roman catholic, let alone a priest. The nonsense on his website is not credible and I would suggest he is basically nothing short of dishonest and he is a charlatan. Be careful not to send him your well earned money because I’m sure he doesn’t publish audited accounts.
If Mr Gruner wants to do the right thing then he needs to:
a) stop pretending to be a priest in good standing and wearing clerical attire
b) stop undertaking any kind of ministry
c) return to his incardinated diocese and obey his bishop
Why does he persistently refuse to do these things when he knows it is what is required?
Waynekelland,
Please note, you must NOT refer to Father Gruner as “Mr” on this blog – if you continue to do so, I’m sorry but your posts will be deleted.
You are peddling the propaganda about Fr Gruner and risk making yourself seem like one of those “useful idiots” who does the work of the enemies of Fatima within the Vatican. If you don’t even know that once ordained a priest is always a priest, it’s little wonder that you cannot grasp the extent of the persecution of Father Gruner.
If you went into work and were told you had been suspended, and you (naturally) asked WHO Had suspended you – what would you say if the receptionist at the front desk told you “a higher power” had suspended you? No names, no pack drill. Just a “higher power”.
I’ll tell you what you would do if you had half a brain in your head – you’d go straight to your union or a solicitor, and demand to know who had suspended you and why. You’d also demand to know immediately, why you had not been given due warning(s), why the proper processes had not been followed. If some numpty then told you just to accept it, to be obedient to your superior, you’d rightly be outraged. Injustice tends to make normal people outraged.
Now, frankly, I do not believe you’ve read the links already provided but I’m going to provide one now, written by Fr Gruner’s own attorney/lawyer, in response to a daft article in a neo-Catholic newspaper in the USA called The Wanderer. Read that slowly and thoughtfully right to the end, note the documentary evidence and if you still think that Fr Gruner is suspended, then there’s nothing we can do to help you here.
Oh and just for the record, as you will see, Cardinal Sodano was one of the big players in the persecution of Fr Gruner, a Cardinal who, when Pope Benedict asked him to step down, refused to leave his office. More or less took up post there and said “no” to the instruction to get out. And he’s lecturing Fr Gruner on “obedience”? A Cardinal with HIS track record on dealing with victims of child abuse…? Truly, it would be laughable were it not so tragic, to see Catholics taken in by the propaganda, attacking and insulting a good priest like Fr Gruner, while siding with the enemies of the Church and of Fatima. For, make no mistake about it, Cardinal Sodano is an enemy of both Church and Fatima.
Gerragrip. Think. The Church is in crisis. Our Lady of Fatima is not a title to which the likes of Sodano and his ilk are devoted: quite the reverse.
For Heaven’s sake: think about it. As the crisis rages around us, and heretics are given teaching posts in schools, ordained to the priesthood and given free rein to spread their heresy on Catholic premises around the world, the only two priests who have been pronounced excommunicated (Archbishop Lefebvre) and suspended (Father Gruner) are traditional priests, intent on preserving the Mass and the priesthood, and spreading the truth about Fatima respectively. Are you really unaware of the diabolical crisis afflicting the Church right now, which a top Cardinal (Ciappi – chaplain to five popes up to and including Pope John Paul II – not sure about Benedict) said openly “begins at the top” according to the Third Secret of Fatima. Can you not see why the evil-doers in the Vatican do not want Fr Gruner pestering them to reveal the missing part of the Third Secret? There’s not a whiff of scandal of any kind around Fr Gruner, yet he is “suspended”? Priest abusers and criminal-priests are protected and promoted? Can you really not see what is going on?
Do you REALLY want to help the Modernists peddle their lies about Fr Gruner? Do you really want to look like one of the many “useful idiots” who are helping to spread falsehoods about Fatima? Really? Or would YOU – like the rest of us here – like to know why the Vatican is suppressing part of the Third Secret, what it is, and why they are preventing the Consecration of Russia?
I’d like your detailed observations on the lawyer’s article – which you can read here…
Not to read the article thoroughly and in a spirit of Catholic charity suggests that you are malicious and do not want to learn the truth. The truth is crystal clear for anyone of sincere and charitable intent.
Fr Gruner and Archbishop Lefebvre are NOT the only priests to have been excommunicated in recent times. However, both were excommunicated for failing to obey the Pope and the rightful religious superiors and canon law.
OK I’ve read the additional link you have given and the attached long diatribe. There is nothing there that alters the facts and I have not changed my mind. Fr Gruner is a suspended priest as confirmed by the highest authorities in the Vatican. You can’t get more of a confirmation of his illegitimate status.
Editor removed insulting opening sentence.
That is the judgement of the Roman Rota of the Apostolic Signatura – the highest court of the roman curia who upheld his suspension and to which there is no further recourse to appeal. You have clearly NOT read the article I have just posted. You are in bad faith. I am not reading the rest of this until you reply to my post above. If you persist in y our errors, we will not be able to help you here. To ignore the manifest truth, is a grave sin. At a glance at your next couple of sentences, total rubbish. Hurry up and read the article by Fr Gruner’s lawyer and then, if you wish to continue to condemn him, we cannot help you.
He is prohibited from calling himself a priest, wearing clerical attire or exercising public or private ministry. He has excommunicated himself by continuing to do these things against the terms of his suspension. You cannot be excommunicated and be a priest. I’m sorry that you don’t like the facts but that is the objective reality. You don’t appear to accept or like the decision of the catholic church. that makes you a useless idiot not me!
Having said such I will call him Fr Gruner for the purposes of this response. Fr Gruner is not being persecuted at all. He is required to follow canonical law like any other cleric. He has no right to special treatment nor does his predicament, which is of his own making, warrant it. He did not turn up to work to be told by the receptionist that he was suspended that is a totally ludicrous analogy. He left his diocese without permission to undertaken a ministry for which he did not have the consent of his bishop – in short he went AWOL. He refused and continues to refuse to return as required by his bishop. All priests are obliged to be incardinated to a diocese or belong to a religious order in order to exercise any ministry – we cannot have fly-by-night rogue priests just doing whatever they like with no episcopal oversight – that has never been the position within church history. Fr Gruner further tried to disobey his rightful bishop by trying to get himself incardinated into another diocese but that is unsuccessful because his bishop will not agree to it. These actions led quite rightfully to Fr Gruner being suspended.
Fr Gruner refused to accept his suspension and appealed, as is his right, to the Apostolic Signatura who withheld the judgement. It is beyond belief that Fr Gruner does not know the result of this judgement since he himself initiated the process of appeal. Nevertheless, even if he does not know, because for example he refused to cooperate with the hearing, it does not matter. The Apostolic Signatura is the highest roman court with the authority of the Roman Pontiff himself and there no further recourse or legal appeal possible. That is canon law.
I have answered this all before multiple times in posts above. There is nothing more to say. There is nothing left to debate because the As decision is definitive – except if you are not in communion with the Pope and follow some quasi schismatic sect like SSPX who twist and make the laws up as you go along. At the end of the day, you are either catholic or not and, by his actions, Fr Gruner has shown that he is not. If Fr Gruner is still a priest in good standing whose diocese is he incardinated to, and to whom does he answer to as a bishop? You won’t be able to give me a reply.
My opening sentence wasn’t insulting, it was a statement of objective fact that Fr Gruner is suspended and by his own actions excommunicated. How can you be a priest if you are excommunicated?
I have read the article by Fr Gruner’s so called lawyer and it is nonsense. I find it hard to believe that it is written by a qualified canon lawyer because it is not a credible defence. I have addressed all the issues raised in previous posts.
You tell me now, if Fr Gruner is a priest in good standing as you claim – which diocese is he incardinated to? Show me a copy of his celebret. How do you explain the decision of the AS which upheld his suspension. Why, if he continues to wear clerical attire and undertake ministry against the terms of his suspension and canon law, is he not excommunicated?
If he is not a priest then surely he is entitled, as a layman, to request that Our Lady’s wishes be granted. Is Fr Gruner’s sin worse than what is alleged to be going on behind closed doors, and even open doors, in the Vatican?
waynekelland
With respect, the Apostolic Signature is not the highest court. All Catholics have the right to appeal directly to the Pope. From my reading of Fr Gruner’s situation, he has never had a reply from the Pope. It’s generally believed that his correspondence does not reach the Pope due to what is going on behind the scenes.
Lots of priests work outside their dioceses and I remember reading on this blog once that someone here wrote to the diocese in Canada where Fr Gruner works and they were supportive of him. He would not be allowed to work there with the tolerance or support of the diocese if he were excommunicated.
I think it’s a pity that you are so convinced by the lies about Fr Gruner. He is a most humble person.
His life story is fascinating and if you read about him you will see that several bishops wanted to incardinate him but the Vatican Secretary of State, blocked those. At the moment I believe he’s incardinated in the Archdiocese of Hyderabad in India, unless the Vatican has put pressure on that Ordinary to excardinate him. It really wouldn’t matter anyway, as a priest friend once explained to me, because if he had a long-term permission to do his Fatima apostolate, which he had, I believe, then it wouldn’t matter. This is a time of crisis in the Church and I can’t see Our Lady or Her Son being annoyed because Fr Gruner isn’t incardinated in a diocese in these circumstances.
Also, even those of us who don’t attend SSPX chapels know they are not schismatic (you can’t be “quasi-schismatic” you’re either in schism or not!) Some of us would love to live near enough to get to a Society Mass but that’s another subject.
Sorry that’s not correct. There is NO RIGHT TO APPEAL following the Apostolic Signatura – a court of 5 cardinals. However, Popes in the past have chosen to hear the particulars of a case where a particular severe penalty is warranted but that is not a right under canon law. It’s a bit like Benedict commuting the sentence of his butler but not overturning the decision…
There is normally no right of appeal from the decision of the Apostolic Signatura (can. 1629 #1); however, laypersons and clerics have rarely convinced the Pope to hear their case afterwards, usually if they are facing excommunication or some other form of severe censure, such as the loss of the right to teach theology or to administer the sacraments (a theologian and priest who faced censure got Pope John Paul II to hear his case and even asked the Pope to alter his own decision, though the Pope did not reverse the ruling in either case).
It is not possible that Fr (sic) Gruner can be incardinated to any Indian diocese because incardination requires that you are a priest in good standing as well as the permission of his bishop – which he does not have. Fr Gruner obviously is not humble is he refuses to accept and obey the decisions of his bishop, the Vatican secretary of state or the apostolic signature.
I would agree that you cannot be in quasi-schism and the SSPX are in fact in schism but I did not want to get into another debate.
Did you actually read the really detailed article by Chris Ferrara? Every fact is there! Any priest can be incardinated anywhere if the bishop agrees to it. A friend of mine asked to be incardinated abroad and he’s there to this day. He is Scottish priest but wanted to work on the continent.
Rome has never said the SSPX is in schism. The excommunications were lifted in 2009, I think it was. Cardinal Hoyos was appointed to be the liaison between the Society and the Vatican, i.e. he represented the pope and when he was asked in an interview if they were in schism, he said that anyone who thought they were in schism didn’t understand the situation. I’ve read that Renew America interview so often, I almost know if off by heart!
Yes a priest can be incardinated anywhere with the permission of his originating bishop but Fr Gruner’s bishop didn’t agree so he’s not incardinated anywhere else. It’s a bit like a bank account, you can’t transfer a debit balance. Fr Gruner is not in good standing so can’t be transferred anywhere until he regularises his position.
Editor: Wrong again. Why not actually READ the facts we’ve given you?
Rome has said that the SSPX are in schism and the excommunications have nothing to do with their status in the church. Cardinal Hoyos used overly diplomatic language when the talks were in progress but ‘irregular canonical situation’ basically means schism. The SSPX so not accept the authority of the Pope and they are not in communion with him so they are schismatic. However, I didn’t want to get down that rabbot hole.
Editor: Post an official statement from the Pope which says the SSPX is in schism.Must be an official declaration. Not even the worst of the “liberals” claim that any more, so you need to substantiate your claim with concrete evidence.
It’s not wrong, it’s right but you’re a follower of the schismatic SSPX sect so you won’t believe it.
Editor: Quote anything from the Pope after 1988 when Pope John Paul II issued his unjust and illegal decree of excommunication (later lifted by Pope Benedict), which states that the SSPX is in schism. Anything. Otherwise stop repeating lies. No more allegations of schism against the SSPX will be published here, without official documentation from either Pope Benedict or Pope Francis. Official documentation, not off the cuff personal opinions.
Some time later: 19/11/13 – I relented on this when post after pointless post flooded into the moderation box and I truly felt sorry for this hugely misguided blogger. Hence I’ve released some more posts below. As of time of writing, however, 19/11/13, no more posts alleging schism will be approved. Please do not waste your time compiling them, WayneKelland.
Methinks the lady dost protest too much!
Editor: and methinks Waynekelland doesn’t understand the issues. Hans Kung (who has written books arguing that there is no scriptural basis for the papacy) is a priest in good standing, while Fr Gruner, devoted to the Church and papacy, is “suspended”? Try connecting the dots – soon.
Here you go, Ratzinger became Pope so you should be happy with this….
Cardinal Ratzinger referred to the SSPX as a schism in his 1988 comments to the Bishops of Chile. His statements are worth quoting at length:
“…the movement led by Lefebvre has separated itself by a clean break with the Church. A Christian never can, or should, take pleasure in a rupture. Even though it is absolutely certain the fault cannot be attributed to the Holy See. Thus we will be able to offer a place within the Church to those who are seeking and demanding it, and succeed in destroying all reason for schism. We can make such schism pointless by renewing the interior realities of the Church….If once again we succeed in pointing out and living the fullness of the Catholic religion with regard to these points, we may hope that the schism of Lefebvre will not be of long duration” (Speech to the Bishops of Chile, July 13, 1988).
It is a very interesting point that Ratzinger makes here – by renewing Tradition and being faithful to the Church’s own “interior realities”, the necessity for groups such as the SSPX becomes moot. But that is not the point – the point is that he considers the SSPX separated from the Church “by a clean break” and uses the word schism three times.
Editor: that was a Cardinal speaking, right at the time of the excommunications in 1988. Here’s another cardinal appointed by the same Cardinal Ratzinger when he became Pope, saying the opposite, when representing Pope Benedict. In an interview, speaking on behalf of Pope Benedict, Cardinal Hoyos says around 5 times that the SSPX have never been in schism – check this report – and all commentators agree that Pope Benedict was anxious to regularise the irregular situation of the SSPX. That’s all it is. If you knew anything about schism and canon law you would know that by an act of disobedience to a pope nobody is in schism (or the entire novus ordo brigade would be in schism, everything that happens in their Masses is a succession of acts of disobedience: seen any lay people handling Communion lately? Heard any Latin during Mass?)
Cardinal Hoyos’ remarks were an off the cuff interview and unprepared so according to your comment above that doesn’t count.
The Cardinal was speaking on behalf of the Pope. Five times he said the Society is not in schism. Hardly “off the cuff.”
The SSPX didn’t just commit any little act of disobedience though did they? They consecrated four bishops without papal mandate and against the express command of the validly reigning Pope – according to canon law that is a formal schismatic act which incurs excommunication. The formal schismatic action doesn’t disappear just because the excommunications were lifted (which was an act of charity and sign of goodwill in the reconciliation talks continued by Benedict). Furthermore the SSPX continue in their schism because they refuse to acknowledge or follow the Pope’s obedience. None of their bishops are in communion with him, they even continued recently to ordain priests against his formal request. The SSPX is not in communion with Rome therefore they are in schism that is what it means. As one of your commentators remarked above, you cannot be in a state of quasi-schism (or quasi-communion). The SSPX’s ‘irregular situation’ is that they are in schism. I will also try to find the official confirmation of schism by the Cardinal before Hoyos (which the SSPX frequently half quote out of context in their erroneous publicity material).
Handling holy communion (which is a legitimate action under current liturgical law) is not a schismatic act – whether you approve or not – and has nothing to do with the SSPX’s circumstances. Again, you deflect the issue by pointing at others. It’s all smoke and daggers with you lot, isn’t it!
Editor: Canon 1323 # 4 – “no-one is liable to a penlty who, when violating a law or precept acted under the compulsion of grave fear, even if only relative, or by reason of necessity or grave inconvenience, unless, however, the act is intrinsically evil or tends to be harmful to souls”
Archbishop Lefebvre acted in a case of necessity, when he perceived there to be a genuine threat to the Faith. And WOW was he right, prophetically so! The prohibition of consecrating bishops without papal mandate was waved in the case of China, where this routinely happens. And even the liberal Fr Z doesn’t believe they’re in schism It’s literally years since I’ve encountered anyone who seriously thinks the SSPX is in schism. Pope Francis has expressed schismatic views, for heaven’s sake – nobody in the SSPX has EVER said anything remotely as Modernist as this pope. Gerragrip.
Try reading wiki…
On 24 August 1996, the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts responded to an enquiry from the Bishop of Sion (Switzerland), which had been referred to the Council by the Congregation for Bishops, by expressing its judgment[6] that “in the case of the Lefebvrian deacons and priests there seems no doubt that their ministerial activity in the ambit of the schismatic movement is a more than evident sign of the fact that the two requirements” (internal and external) for formal adherence to the schism “have been met”.[7] It added: “On the other hand, in the case of the rest of the faithful it is obvious that an occasional participation in liturgical acts or the activity of the Lefebvrian movement, done without making one’s own the attitude of doctrinal and disciplinary disunion of such a movement, does not suffice for one to be able to speak of formal adherence to the movement.”[8] It stated that its judgment was about the existence of the sin of schism, since for the existence of the canonical crime of schism, which entails excommunication, the conditions listed in canons 1323-1324 of the Code of Canon Law must also be met.[9]
In 1999, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei stated that it was likely, but not certain, that the SSPX priests were [also] adhering to the schism, which would mean that they were excommunicated, but that people who, “because of their attraction to the traditional Latin Mass and not because they refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or reject communion with the members of the Church subject to him”, attended Mass celebrated by those priests, were not excommunicated, although, the longer they frequented SSPX chapels, the greater the likelihood of imbibing a schismatic mentality that would seem to involve adherence to the schism and so excommunication.[10] It judged that documentation sent to it in 1998 clearly indicated the extent to which “many in authority in the Society of St. Pius X” were in conformity with the formal definition of schism.[11]
In his letter of 10 March 2009 concerning his remission of the excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St Pius X, Pope Benedict XVI reaffirmed: “Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”[17] – ie schism!
Editor: not exercising any ministry due to canonical difficulties is NOT schism. All of the preceding stuff was null and void due to the 2009 lifting of the excommunications. You really do not understand the issues here at all. Not at all.
The day after Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated the four bishops, Cardinal Gantin on behalf of Pope John Paul II declared on July 1, 1988 that the Archbishop had excommunicated himself by
consecrating bishops without pontifical mandate in violation of canon 1382, and also referred to
the consecration as a schismatic act under canon 1364.1 which Pope John Paul II
acknowledged in his Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei Afflicta (July 2, 1988).
Editor: under Canon 1323 # 1:4 “No-one is liable to a penalty who, when violating a law or precept acted under the compulsion of grave fear, even if only relative, or by reason of necessity…” Read An Open Letter to Confused Catholics (from Archbishop Lefebvre, if you genuinely wish to grow in understanding of the alleged “schism”.
Pope JP2:
In the Ecclesia Dei Adflicta itself: “[T]his act [the unlawful episcopal consecrations] was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the Church, such as is the consecration of bishops, whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence, such disobedience — which implies, in practice, the rejection of the Roman primacy — constitutes a schismatic act (para. 3)
Cardinal Lara:
“You bring to my attention a matter of importance,” Cardinal Castillo Lara responded. “You asked if I could tell you what exactly I said in the interview of 10th July, 1988. The substance of what I said is as follows: ‘In the case of Lefebvre and the four priests consecrated bishops by him, there are two offenses, canonically speaking, that they have committed. The fundamental offense is that of schism: that is, refusing submission to the Roman Pontiff and breaking communion with the Church. This offense they had already previously committed. Only that, now, the second offence, that of consecrating bishops, formalizes, in a certain sense, and concretizes the first and makes it explicit. Schism is a delict which can be personal. It does not require having a number of people. Individuals can do it on their own. Lefebvre and his followers, inasmuch as they refused submission to the Pope, were already, by that fact itself, in schism. The intent of the act of consecrating bishops is already to create a church with its own hierarchy. In this sense, the consecration of bishops becomes an act of schism. One should keep in mind, however, that the act of consecrating bishops is not in itself a schismatic act. In fact, in the Code, where offenses are treated, these two are treated in two distinct headings. There are delicts against religion and the unity of the Church. And these are apostasy (i.e. renouncing the faith), schism, and heresy. Consecrating a bishop without pontifical mandate is, on the other hand, an offense against the proper exercise of one’s ministry. For example, there was an excommunication of the Vietnamese Archbishop, Ngo Dinh Thuc in ’76 and ’83, for an episcopal consecration, but it was not considered a schismatic act because there was no intent to break with the Church. Ngo Dinh Thuc represents a pitiable situation, as there is some mental imbalance.
With regard to Econe, Lefebvre and the four priests, they are under two excommunications: one for the offense of schism; the other, reserved to the Apostolic See, for the offense of consecrating a bishop without a pontifical mandate. I hope that this is helpful to you” (letter to John Beaumont, dated 26th May 1993).
“[A] decision of the Apostolic See, whose authority has no superior, may be revised by no one, nor may anyone examine. judicially, its decision” (Vatican I, Constitution on the Church, Pastor Aeternus, Ch. III). “[T]here is neither appeal nor recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff” (Code of Canon Law, canon 333(3)).
annex to letter of Cardinal Seper to Archbishop Lefebvre, 28th January 1978)
Letter by Cardinal Seper annexed to Pope Paul VI’s letter to Archbishop Lefebvre, 28th January 1978:
“[T]he Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith considers that, by your declarations about submission to the Council and to the post-conciliar reforms of Paul VI — declarations with which your whole behavior and especially your illicit ordinations of priests are in accord — you have fallen into rave disobedience, and that all these declarations and acts, by their own logic, lead to schism” (ibid).
Editor: I’ve only skimmed these – nothing here of any worth or authority: all Modernists like to accuse the SSPX of schism. Ask Hans Kung for his opinion. I’m only letting these daft posts through because there appears to be no personal nastiness in them and I feel sorry for you putting in all this pointless effort. Instead of quoting all this out of date stuff, why not write to Pope Francis yourself and ask him outright for a straight answer: IS the SSPX in schism. Then come back and tell us what he says in reply. I could save you the time, effort and postage but you won’t listen to me. Go on, write to the Pope. I challenge you.
Here are some of the acts of disobedience to the Pope, or to those under him, perpetrated by this organization, to which many more could be added:
1) The SSPX establishes seminaries, churches, chapels and priories throughout the world, without any reference to the local ordinaries in whose dioceses it carries out these acts.
2) It ordains priests without the dismissorial letters required by canon law.
3) It hears confessions and celebrates marriages without jurisdiction.
4) It gives holy communion to persons who are well known sede vacantists.
5) It refused Pope Paul VI’s command to close the seminary at Econe and to wind up the SSPX.
6) It carries out confirmations in other bishops’ dioceses contrary to the Council of Trent.
7) It purports to accept John Paul II as Pope, and yet rejects parts of the 1983 Code of Canon Law promulgated by him in his capacity as supreme legislator.
8) Finally in 1988, the SSPX consecrated four bishops, knowing that this was against the express will of the Pope and then, in 1991, proceeded to consecrate a further bishop in a diocese (Campos in Brazil) where, as the SSPX itself recognizes, there is already a valid bishop.
The conclusion which was drawn in the article “Schism, Obedience and the Society of Pius X” is just as relevant today: [H]ere is an organization which pays no regard whatsoever to the commands and laws of legitimate authority in the Church and which refuses to do the express will of the Supreme Pontiff in matters of great importance for the visible unity of the Church. Put all of these things together, and what we have is an autonomous organization, a petite eglise, an independent church. If this does not constitute schism, what does? (op cit, p.37).
Editor: You’re posting an anti-SSPX article, without any documentary evidence, as proof that the Society is in schism? What level of hatred you clearly have for the old Faith, and the Mass that the saints died to preserve. Tragic.
the extent of the real evidence for the Lefebvrist schism. All in all we have the following items of evidence:
(a) The decision of the Pope that there is a schism.
(b) The decision of the Catholic Church to the same effect.
(c) The teaching of Cardinal Castillo Lara former President of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, again, that there is a schism.
(d) The teaching of Pope Pius XII that an episcopal consecration against the will of the Pope is an offense against divine law as well as against human law (Apostolorum Principis [1958]).
As a matter of canon law the act of 30th June 1988 fits the definition of schism contained in the Code of Canon Law. It is not any of us who decide this. The Church in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta does so. Canon law can only be interpreted by the law-maker (Canon 16).
(f) Vatican I in Pastor Aeternus requires Catholics to obey decisions of the Holy See in matters of this kind.
(g) The Society of St. Pius X is unable to cite from 2000 years of Tradition any pope doctor or council to justify episcopal consecration against the express will of the Pope.
(h) The Society of St. Pius X and its apologists have to misquote a canonist in order to defend their case. In addition as we have shown in “Schism, Obedience and the Society of St. Pius X,” the SSPX even has to rewrite the Catholic definitions of schism and obedience to justify its position.
Editor: you’re incredible. You cite pre-Vatican II sources (one at least, 1958) and ask for precedence – when this crisis in the Church is absolutely unique! We’ve never had popes telling us NOT to convert heretics and schismatics, but to pray with them! We’ve never had a pontiff appoint a priest who was a Freemason to concoct a new Mass etc. We’re in a state of emergency (as they are in China) which is why the Archbishop could, in conscience, consecrate bishops to ensure a truly Catholic Mass and priesthood.
sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience–which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy–constitutes a schismatic act. [Code of Canon Law, 751.] In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the cardinal prefect of the Congregation for Bishops last June 17, Archbishop Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law. [Cf. Code of Canon Law, 1382.]
…
5. c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law. [Cf. Code of Canon Law, 1364.]
Editor: the same Vicar of Christ who excommunicated (illicitly) Archbishop Lefebvre, invited pagans and Protestants to pray with him to their false gods at Assisi. You seriously think he was a good pope who did the right thing by excommunicating an Archbishop whom he once described as “the best of my Generals”?
The Vicar of Christ at the time (June 1988), Pope John Paul II, who was also the Supreme Law-maker and Law-Interpreter, declared so solemnly in the document “Ecclesia Dei Adflicta”
3. In itself this act was one of disobedience to the Roman pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the Church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience–which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy–constitutes a schismatic act. [Code of Canon Law, 751.] In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the cardinal prefect of the Congregation for Bishops last June 17, Archbishop Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law. [Cf. Code of Canon Law, 1382.]
…
5. c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law. [Cf. Code of Canon Law, 1364.]
Editor: the same Vicar of Christ who excommunicated (illicitly) Archbishop Lefebvre, invited pagans and Protestants to pray with him to their false gods at Assisi. You seriously think he was a good pope who did the right thing by excommunicating an Archbishop whom he once described as “the best of my Generals”?
Waynekelland,
Please note, that your posts are going directly into moderation, which means that I see them before publication. Hence my responses in each post since you insisted on alleging that the SSPX is in schism. I have released your posts because I felt sorry for you, having put such a lot of work into compiling them, and I have minimally corrected them, due to lack of time. However, as from now, no more posts on this topic will be published here.
Please respect this decision – which is final. Thank you.
As I have stated previously, Father Gruner’s recent experience in Saint Peter’s Square is like something out of Stasiland. Vatican security were able to find Father Gruner in a crowd of tens of thousands, yet as I recall from the videos, when requested, they were not able to produce a copy of any document informing Father Gruner that he was suspended. Don’t anyone tell us that the filing system isn’t up to scratch.
The Vatican security service’s bizarre behaviour towards this good and holy priest indicates to me that some in very high places are fully aware of the significance of Father Gruner’s promotion of the true Fatima Apostolate. It’s a very real demonstration, albeit in a back handed way, that the obstructors of Father Gruner realise that the Message of Fatima most certainly does not belong to the past. What in Heaven’s name did security think was going to happen? They don’t mind the Pope being driven around Saint Peter’s in an open topped vehicle, or impromptu interaction with crowds, but the prospect of Father Gruner having a word with the Pope gets them all spooky!
Obviously someone is terrified that if Father Gruner was to speak to the Pope he might have the effect that so many of us desire, and the Consecration of Russia, requested by Our Lady, and commanded by Our Lord, would take place.
Waynekelland
After well over two dozen posts on this thread, you still have not informed readers of the specific “offense” of which Father Gruner is “guilty”.
On the matter of schism, you appear to be trying to exercise your own parallel magisterium in declaring Catholics outside the Church. The words of Cardinal Ratzinger in 1988 that you quote, and likewise the words of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts in 1996, don’t even mention the Society by name. And let’s not pretend that such imprecision is a matter of unforeseen insignificance. You haven’t been able, as requested, to produce any definitive statement from a Pope.
Certainly, the false accusation that the Society has been schismatic since 30 June 1988 appears very difficult to dispel, no matter how much evidence is produced. As far as I know, it has yet to be explained how Bishops and priests who are not excommunicated, are outside the Church. An article by Christopher Ferrara, published in the Remnant Newspaper, and which was posted on the old blog more than once is worth reading:
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2011-0205-ferrara-gnostic-twaddle.htm
Saint Augustine stated that against facts there is no argument. Well, those Catholics take it upon themselves to issue private “magisterial” statements and declare that the Society is schismatic have some rather awkward facts to deal with.
Please note very carefully, Waynekelland, that the Code of Canon Law nowhere says that illicit consecration of bishops is a schismatic offense. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, episcopal consecration without papal mandate is not found under the section of “Offences against Religions and the unity of the Church.”
Since schism is defined by the same Code as “the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him” (Canon 751), Archbishop Lefebvre could only be accused of schism if he had by the consecrations sought to start his own church or attempted to give jurisdiction to the bishops he consecrated. That was manifestly not the case. Facing the end of his life, and after strenuous and long lasting efforts in the struggle for Tradition, the Archbishop wanted to provide the means to ensure that the Mass, the orthodox priesthood and the means of preserving and protecting Tradition would be passed on. His concern was for the salvation of souls.
During his sermon at the episcopal consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre made it very clear that there was no intention or spirit of schism involved:
“We are not schismatics! . . .There is no question of us separating ourselves from Rome, nor of putting ourselves under a foreign government, nor of establishing a sort of parallel church as the Bishops of Palmar de Troya have done in Spain. . . . It is out of the question for us to do such things. Far from us be this miserable thought to separate ourselves from Rome!”
It’s worth reading the magnificent sermon in full.
[from http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Episcopal-Consecration.htm%5D
If the Archbishop was schismatic and rejected the Pope’s authority to command or the primacy of the See of Rome, then why on earth would he have spent years in contact with Rome, and travelling there whenever requested? If he was schismatic and desirous to set up his own “church” the Archbishop wouldn’t have been one bit concerned with Rome and would no doubt have consecrated plenty of Bishops long before ill health and impending death closed in on him.
Yes, the episcopal consecrations were against the will of the Pope. That in itself does not constitute schism. A lot more is required.
“Schismatics properly so called are those who willfully and intentionally separate themselves from the unity of the Church.” – St Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica, II-II, q. 39, a.1
Other Dominican theologians such as Pruemmer and Merkelbech further confirm that mere disobedience does not constitute schism.
“Mere contempt of a precept or law of the Pope, no matter how grave or obstinate, is mere disobedience of a precept, and therefore not schismatic in its essence, and hence, does not separate one from the Church.” – Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II-II, q.12, a. 1 ad 3
That the consecration of bishops cannot be an intrinsically schismatic act is evident under canon law. Under the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the punishment for illicitly consecrating bishops was not excommunication but mere suspension (this was changed to excommunication in 1951). However, if consecrating bishops without papal mandate were an inherently schismatic offense, then the 1917 Code would have had to require excommunication for this offense, because the very same Code teaches, as the 1983 Code does, that schismatics incur latae sententiae excommunication (Canon 2314 in the 1917 Code; Canon 1382 in the 1983 Code). Therefore, consecrating bishops without papal mandate is not an inherently schismatic offense. To state otherwise lacks foundation.
There is a very significant point that needs to be made in relation to the episcopal conscecrations on 30 June 1988. When Archbishop Lefebvre was sent the canonical warning by Cardinal Gantin on June 17, 1988, the warning did not include mention of schism anywhere. Don’t anyone tell me that that was some accidental oversight and omission.
The Pope, as supreme legislator, can add new canons to the Code. But he cannot make something schismatic that is not inherently so.
Archbishop Lefebvre knew that when he acted, as a true Catholic Bishop, out of grave concern for the salvation of souls, and “handed on what I have received”.
Canon 751 of the 1983 Code, as stated previously, defines schism as “the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him”. The Catholic Encyclopedia teaches this manifestly: “Not every disobedience is a schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the commands of superiors, denial of their Divine right to command” Neither Archbishop Lefebvre nor the Society has ever denied the Pope’s authority to command. I think the Archbishop’s attitude has been spelt out. If anyone thinks the Society’s position has changed one iota, they ought to read the Declaration of the Society’s General Chapter last year. It includes the following:
“We reaffirm our faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the unique Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation nor possibility to find the means leading to salvation; our faith in its monarchical constitution, desired by Our Lord Himself, by which the supreme power of government over the universal Church belongs only to the Pope, Vicar of Christ on earth…”
How many of those modernist Bishops and priests who declare the Society “schismatic” would put their names to that Declaration?
Leo,
I can’t thank you enough for that thoroughly documented post. Only a malicious spirit would continue to assert the false charge of schism against the Society in the face of all the concrete facts which you have provided. I prefer to think of Waynekelland as having been deceived by the propaganda, so let’s see if I’m correct – we’ll soon know if he comes on here to thank you for your first class, irrefutable comment.
You can now give up your day job – you’ve shot right to the top of the pay scale, with a Christmas bonus to come 🙂
Whatever were our opinions about the Council’s various doctrines before its conclusions were promulgated, today our adherence to the decisions of the Council must be whole hearted and without reserve; it must be willing and prepared to give them the service of our thought, action and conduct. The Council was something very new: not all were prepared to understand and accept it. But now the conciliar doctrine must be seen as belonging to the magisterium of the Church and, indeed, be attributed to the breath of the Holy Spirit. (Paul VI to the Roman Curia, 23 April, 1966)
Waynekelland,
I find it hard to believe Pope Paul said that because his successors said differently, and a cardinal (can’t remember his name) said not that long ago that it is perfectly legitimate for Catholics to question Vatican II. It wasn’t a dogmatic council and Pope John XXIII actually said that in his opening address. He said the Council would deliberately not define new dogma but only look at ways to present the teachings to the modern world. Paul VI speaking to the Roman Curia is not binding anyway, it’s probably on the same level as Pope Francis speaking to journalists. Also, that was 1966 and a few years later Paul VI was agonising over the state of the Church. I bet he realised, too late, the damage VII had done.
There’s an interesting thread from Fr Z’s site which is about Vatican II being the cause of the “institutional collapse” of the Church.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/08/institutional-collapse-a-fruit-of-vatican-ii/
I don’t think Waynekelland is a liberal. I would guess they’re conservative in their private life. They seem to like rank. If the Pope and the Cardinals say it’s so then it is.
This is probably a natural virtue that they have. How do common peasants convince them that Cardinals are wrong?
I don’t know. Correct me if I’m wrong W.
What does it matter if I’m liberal or conservative? I look to authoritive sources within the church to judge the status of the SSPX and interpret fidelity to the interpretation of V2. You cannot deny and twist canon law and the lawful decisions by numerous cardinals and popes. An important principle under canon law is that the law maker ultimately decides how the law is to be interpreted. The SSPX do not get to determine their status, the Pope and curia do.
Editor: which pope? Pope John Paul II excommunicated Archbishop Lefebvre. Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications and made clear that they are in an irregular situation but not excommunicated. He overturned the ruling of the Bishop in Hawaii who excommunicated six people for taking ALL the sacraments at an SSPX chapel. So, I repeat – which pope do we obey?
Don’t bother, Leo! She made the same promise to me and the pay is rubbish!
Snitch!
Surely not, Crofter Lady. You mustn’t be getting paid the same as the rest of us.
As someone once said to me, Editor:
“Sure, you’re cheap at half the price.”
Leo,
And as someone once said to me, a trouble shared, is a trouble doubled ! Just when I’d agreed to babysit twins 🙂
Is not this report priceless? And think of this. Were anyone to write to this cardinal and ask him for permission to attend an SSPX Mass, he’d scream “schism” at the top of his apostate voice. Truly, you just could not make this stuff up! Note, this apostate is one of the cardinals chosen by Pope Francis to advise him on reforming the curia (remember that “urgent” task?) Truly, up, you could not make this stuff!
You are misinterpreting Cardinal Marx’s comments to deflect attention and blame from the SSPX’s ”irregular canonical situation’.
Editor: nope – just asking for a level playing field. How can the SSPX be in schism for adhering to Tradition, while Cardinal Marx is “in good standing” when he even doubts the existence of God? Gerragrip!
W
It does matter. If you are a liberal especially a radical one then you might not even believe in Dogma. You might just have an agenda against the Fr. Gruner, etc. because you hate what they stand for. I’m not saying All liberals are like that, either, just to be clear. However if that’s the case then debating is useless.
I don’t pick up from any of your comments that that’s where you’re coming from. If you are a decent, Mass going Catholic, who does accept the teaching of the Church then all that I do see in your comments is that you have a love of authority. That means if there were a reversal in the future and the Pope and Bishops were to return to Tradition and think exactly like Fr. Gruner and Bishop Fellay, you would also.
You might just appear that way because you’re avoiding the subjective, but there are signs that that’s not the case. I would say you’re over fifty, a cradle Catholic, and perhaps from a military background?
I am neither a radical liberal, liberal or conservative. I am a middle of the road politics kind. I definitely am not over 50 or ex-military. However I was born and raised as catholic and continue to practice my faith. You seem quite useless at double guessing what I am, not that it is relevant to the topic at hand.
I am not overly in love with authority at all but I recognise what is the official and authoritive teaching of the church. There can be no future papal reversal of the V2. Like it or not, it is a valid council properly convened and promulgated by the reigning popes. It is part of the official magisterium of the church to which assent is required. Pope Francis recently made this abundantly crystal clear.
You were born post Vatican II? What brought your attention to Fr. Gruner? I’ve never met any Catholic outside of the Traditional ones who even know who he is.
What do you think about modernism? It does matter.
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