General Discussion (3) …editor
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To read General Discussion Thread (1) click here (2) click here
NATIONAL SHRINE TO ST JOSEPH. I would like to mention a little-known shrine in the UK which is actually the National Shrine to St Joseph. This is now housed in Farnborough Abbey; having been rescued from Mill Hill in London. I am sure it would please Our Lady greatly if more people went to visit the shrine of her beloved spouse, and make it more known.
Further info on St Joseph’s shrine.
I was there earlier this year! Beautiful place. They do guided tours of the Shrine on Saturdays.
In case anyone hasn’t seen this newsflash from the Fatima Network:-
Father Gruner to Speak at
Fisher More Catholic College, Texas
Una Voce Dinner at Harvard Club in NYC
Our Lady’s Apostolate has made major gains through our recent conference and media campaigns in raising public awareness of the Message of Fatima and the possibility of world peace that obedience to Our Lady’s requests would bring about. Interest in the Message of Fatima is growing, as evidenced by invitations Father Gruner has received and accepted to address two groups in the coming month.
Father has been asked to speak to the students at Fisher More Catholic College in Fort Worth, Texas on November 22 and 23. Fisher More (see: http://fishermore.edu/) is a traditional Catholic College that has been consecrated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. These talks are not open to the public, but our Fatima TV crew will be filming the talks and will later make them available on our web site at http://www.fatima.org.
On Dec. 6, Father Gruner will address Una Voce New York at the prestigious Harvard Club in Manhattan (see: Fourth Annual Una Voce New York Dinner Symposium flyer). This will be a dinner symposium entitled “The Consecration of Russia: Ending 70 Years of Catastrophe and Escaping Future Disaster.”
The event is open to the public. All who can attend are warmly invited and encouraged to do so. It will be a memorable evening. There is a cost of $75 for the dinner and event, with a $10 discount for early registration.
Joining Father Gruner on the dais at the Harvard Club that evening will be John Vennari, editor of Catholic Family News, and Christopher A. Ferrara , Esq., president of the American Catholic Lawyers Association and author of The Secret Still Hidden and False Friends of Fatima.
Mr. Vennari’s address is titled “The Rise of Antichrists” and Mr. Ferrara will speak on “The Unsinkable Fatima Message.” If you can attend, we encourage you to register as soon as possible. In any event, we ask for your continued prayers and support for the Apostolate. As long as we are faithful, we cannot be stopped or silenced, for Our Lady’s grace sustains and direct us. Who can withstand Heaven?
This is incredible news. Fisher More Catholic College extending an invitation to Fr Gruner to speak to the students. That this College has been consecrated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary is very telling.
Also 2 days before the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, being invited to address Una Voce New York.
Incredible indeed following upon the debacle on October 13 when Father Gruner was harassed by Vatican Security, who were terrified that he would attempt to speak to Pope Francis. We need not be reminded that His Holiness failed to consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary upon that date.
Our Lady requested that Russia be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, but it would be late. So far, Popes, Cardinals and Bishops have been terrified to carry out this consecration. How the Hierarchy need many Masses, Rosaries and Sacrifices offered up to God so that they will do what Our Lady asked.
Television recommendation: Tudor Monastery Farm, available on BBC iPlayer
Where was that church with the bird design located? Everyone I show it to wants to know.
This is the BBC website for the programme. The info should be on there somewhere.
It is the Church by the Sea in Madeira Beach, Florida. Also known as the ‘Chicken Church’.
It probably wasn’t purposefully designed to resemble fowl. I think it was serendipitous. I quite like it. Reminds me of Easter.
If you’re interested, you might like this webpage about modern churches which look like chickens
Wow, seeing all the bird churches at once! I also looked up the Florida church and it was built in the 1940’s. They seemed to be saying that no one had noticed it looked like a bird until recently. I’m pretty sure I would have noticed. Maybe I’ll get a print and put it on one of my walls.
Does anyone know if Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa is still alive?
Some articles I thought might be of interest to bloggers:
1) Eponymous flower reports on confusion over whether or not Pope Francis has personally condemned the recent protest against the interfaith event in Buenos Aires.
It sounds to me like some people have been telling porky pies over this (by claiming he did condemn it). After the excellent statement from the SSPX Superior in Argentina, who showed that Papal documents on the Vatican’s own website fully support the action of the protestors, all Francis would achieve via condemnation would be to make a fool of himself.
2) James McMillan attacks popular Catholic Music as “catering to old hippies”
And I agree with him. However, I disagree when he goes on to talk about blending ancient gregorian music with vernacular lyrics. He seems to say that this is an expression of tradition but which maintains the participatory sentiments of Vatican II.
I would argue that this “participation” (in any type of liturgy) tends to lead to the people glorifying themselves, rather than God. Additionally this vernacular music he talks up seems to be reinventing the wheel – why not just use Gregorian Chant in all its majesty? Why produce a lesser, modern copy?
In general though, I like the savaging he gives to most modern Catholic music (“puerile stumblings and fumblings”) and those responsible for it ( “musically illiterate”).
Can anyone tell me are the Bayside New York prophecies credible?
Absolutely not. Totally not. Completely unreliable. Do not believe them.
And if you are still in doubt…
You’re better than a search engine!
Editor, I can see you are still undecided about Bayside, lol.
Yeah, well, Vianney,as you know, I don’t like to be too dogmatic about things… 🙂
No! Veronica Leuken, the ‘seer’ is a fraud and the ‘visions’ were condemned by the local Ordinary
Bayside gives me the creeps. Sometimes I’ve clicked on some interesting info only to find out at the end that I’m on some bayside site.
Fr Michael Rodriguez:
He is a great Priest, who is unfortunately being treated like dirt by the idiot Bishop of El Paso and other members of the Hierarchy. Please pray for him. He deserves massive credit for being trained in the Novus Ordo, but training himself privately in the ‘old’ Mass.
Just out of interest, in the old days prior to V2, for daily Masses would the Priest say a Low Mass including the Gloria and Credo, because in the NO these two are omitted. Also, in a private Mass, with only the Priest there, with no servers or congregants, would he have to say ‘Dominus Vobiscum’, and ‘Sursum Corda’ etc to himself, along with the responses, i.e ‘et cum Spiritu Tuo’, ‘Habemus ad Dominum’ and ‘Dignum et Iustum est’?
How is the state of the SSPX in the UK? From what I have heart numbers have stagnated somewhat in the last decade or so?
Up north here in Scandinavia we have the privilege of having SSPX priests from London make monthly visits. As has been reported in the UK newsletter we have been blessed with a certain increase in Stockholm and especially Oslo. Both places have Society-controlled premises for masses.
Can’t speak about elsewhere but in Scotland the Edinburgh and Glasgow chapels are flourishing with lots of young families.
Not to mention slim, glamorous, witty, highly intelligent, saintly if humble with it, gals about town!
Editor, I don’t want to get these Scandinavians too exited, you know what happened the last time they invaded these shores.
That’s great to hear. We just might have to dust of the longships ;).
Our slim, witty and glamorous Editor will soon send you Vikings packing- all by herself.
The face that sunk a thousand ships!
Sorry Ed, couldn’t resist that but you know I don’t mean it.
If you could see me right now, having lost quite a bit of much needed beauty sleep this week, you WOULD mean it – believe me!
Pish posh, Ed- you don’t need beauty sleep.
As you have raised this question, it would indeed be interesting to know what exactly is the situation with Mass attendance in the UK at the Society churches/centres. Presumably, there is a blogger from most areas in the UK, and perhaps they can each tell us how things are at their individual Masses. Things that can affect Mass numbers will be local employment/redundancies, immigrants from other ethnic groups moving into an area, and so on.
If numbers at some Mass centres are falling – can a specific reason be identified? Maybe, another group who have had the same problem in the past, would be able to offer some practical advice/suggestions.
It’s so good to hear from Socialist Scandinavia. I believe Fr. Lindquist is the SSPX Priest who visits Scandinavia on a regular basis, and he is Swedish but lives in London. Does the SSPX have a particularly great following where you are from? I would have thought Scandinavia was fairly liberal in it’s Catholicism. Also, if you only receive the Sacraments once a month from a Society Priest, what do you do on the other days- say a dry Mass or the Rosary?
Yes, correct (you got his name wrong though), usually Fr L. Great following? Hardly. Oslo is largest, with a stable crowd of 30-50 mass goers. Stockholm isn’t far behind. Many diocesan priests here are Polish and rather “conservative” I suppose, as are most of the native priests. The worst are Jesuits (surprise!). There are motu masses with a resident ICK priest in Stockholm who also says mass in Lund each Sunday, and a few other diocesan motu masses spread around Sweden (of which one is every Sunday). Norway has just one, which has recently been resumed after a long break, in Oslo, and another in Stavanger, both just once monthly. Denmark has long had a twice monthly diocesan TLM in Copenhagen, and a small SSPX presence in Aalborg. A large part of the trads here come straight from secularism, rather few from the NO (except the many Poles in Oslo).
Does anyone know the situation both in Northern and Southern Ireland? We were on holiday there a few years ago and were appalled at the liturgical abuses we witnessed. At one Mass, the priest actually changed the words of the Consecration!
I believe the SSPX is doing well in Ireland with flourishing churches in Dublin, Cork and Athlone and smaller chapels in Belfast , Newry and elsewhere. The British Superior is acting Superior in Ireland and it’s supposed to be temporary but has lasted a couple of years now. I know from Irish friends that people there are not too happy with this situation.
I am constantly being surprised and amazed by the enduring success and abundant vocations in the SSPX. Wherever it goes, it seems to flourish, even in the most unlikely places such as Scandinavia.
Vianney, why? What do these people want?
Ireland is listed as having an autonomous house. What does this mean in the SSPX? Some other countries have it as well. Does it mean that they are supposed to be independent from the UK’s district superior? No one around here knows.
A district is a country with more than one priory. A country with only one priory is an autonomous house. Since the opening of a second priory in Athlone Ireland is no longer an autonomous house but a district..
Crofterlady, They are a separate district and I think what they want is a Superior of their own as they had since the opening of the Dublin house. The British Superior was only ever supposed to be temporarily in charge after the previous Superior resigned.
Oh, hark at you, Vianney, a right Clever Clogs these days.
And tell the truth – the Irish want li’l ole moi over there, either as Mother Superior or Pastoral Assistant but Bishop Fellay continues to think it over… In fact, he’s taking so long to think it over that it looks like the first woman cardinal will have been appointed before I get what’s rightfully mine, a “superior” post with the SSPX 🙂
Editor, jealousy is such an ugly emotion.
So want to be the Society’s Sister Steve eh? Wonder who you Fr Dowling will be.
That should be YOUR.
Has anyone seen the Father Brown series with Kenneth Moore? Anything wrong with it? I’ve read Fr. Brown and I’ve see the Alec Guiness film but I’ve never seen any of the series. Is it worth buying the collection?
Haven’t seen it (too young, ha ha) so can’t comment on it but I did see the series which was on TV earlier this year with Mark Williams playing the lead. It was very good and my only criticism is that the chapel was very obviously an Anglican church. I’m sure they could have found an unvandalised Catholic church they could have used.
Thanks, Vianney. I thought it was a newer production! I see now it was made in 1974. It’s also packaged up with some Fr. Brown films. It’s kind of expensive too, for a TV series.
I’ll check to see if the new one is showing here.
Like Vianney, I’ve also seen the Fr Brown series on television, and must agree that the Chapel used was an Anglican Church.
I’ve discovered this link that claims G. K. Chesterton, author of the Fr Brown stories, wrote them about 10 years prior to taking instruction and becoming a Catholic. In this link, the actor Alec Guinness is mentioned too. He also became a Catholic following an experience while filming one of the Fr Brown stories in France.
Thanks Theresa Rose. I’ve never come across that site before. Looks like the 1974 series was good according to the reviewer.
I knew that Chesterton converted but found out that it was later than I thought. I think someone wrote that he was waiting for his wife to convert with him.
Talking about Alec Guinness reminded me that people my age called Fr. Carl Pulvermacher, Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi, when they were children. The very young thought that’s who he was.
Fr. Carl was the Franciscan who worked with Archbishop Lefebvre and I think he was the founding publisher of the Angelus Press and the Angelus magazine. He really did look like Obi-Wan Kenobi in his Franciscan habit.
Would you believe Christopher Hitchens said
The Catholic Church has never recovered from the abandonment of its mystifying Latin ritual.
Amazing that a nhilistic, alcoholic atheist can see the value of the Latin mass, yet the typical parish priest cannot.
(Do you have a source for the quote Miles?)
I am pleased to see reports appearing of Bishop Athanasius Schneider “getting about” and talking to diverse audiences around the globe. Hopefully this will help give what he has to say a higher profile. I think his appearances are connected with a tour to promote a book he has written.
In November, he is appearing in Cork
Bishop Anthanasius Schneider will offer Mass in the Old Rite at the historic Honan Chapel in University College Cork this Saturday at 11.00am, everyone is welcome.
This is significant for several reasons:
– It is the first Traditional Rite Mass there in forty years.
– He will launch a new book, “Corpus Christi – Holy Communion and the Renewal of the Church
– Perhaps most important, it is a deliberate policy statement by the newly appointed Dean and Chaplain about the future direction of the Catholic mission in the University College Cork and the use and purpose of this beautiful chapel.
(Encouragingly, the chaplain who organised this is a young, recently ordained man – a Dominican – see the link).
And in December, Hong Kong:
A Pontifical High Mass will be celebrated by Bishop Athanasius Schneider in December (Gaudete Sunday) during his visit to Hong Kong, followed by a seminar on the history of Communion on the tongue.
May God bless Bishop Schneider. Would that we had more like him in the Episcopate, instead of the usual muppets.
I hope his appearances go well – its just a shame he isn’t visiting Scotland (maybe one day!).
Here is a better link for the Cork event news:
The first time that I heard of Bishop Athanasius Schneider was on a much earlier thread on this blog, where he said how shocking it was when he and his family arrived in Germany to discover how Communion was distributed on the hand.
On the 3rd October 2013, I protested to Rome once again and in vain as usual, in these terms:
“je pense intimement que la liturgie de la Messe dans la forme dite “ordinaire” n’a pas vraiment la même signification théologique que celle de la liturgie dans la forme dite “extraordinaire”; d’où une incompatibilité évidente entre les deux rites!… C’est là que se situe le nœud du problème.
Hélas! à Vatican II, les évêques réunis en concile, ont, en “transformant” la liturgie, creusé un fossé entre catholiques et par voie de conséquence, rompu l’unité de l’Église. Si ces changements avaient été de pure forme, il n’y aurait pas eu de difficultés à ce que les deux rites cohabitent, comme c’est le cas pour ce qui concerne d’autres rites très anciens… Ils ont manqué de prudence et peut-être même de Foi. Ils ont commis plus qu’une erreur, ils ont commis une faute. Cette situation est donc dans l’impasse et c’est à eux, les premiers responsables, qu’il revient de trouver une solution juste et équitable.
Saint Paul aux Galates 1,8: “mais, quand nous-mêmes, quand un ange du ciel annoncerait un autre Évangile que celui que nous vous avons prêché, qu’il soit anathème!” J’ai l’impression que les Autorités officielles de l’Église se moquent éperdument de ce qu’ont dit les Apôtres et notamment Saint Paul plus particulièrement!… Elles le citent mais n’en pensent pas moins; leurs arguments principaux pour s’en affranchir, ce sont “qu’il est d’une autre époque” et “qu’il n’a pas connu Jésus pendant sa vie terrestre”. Je les ai entendus maintes fois!
“I think intimately that the liturgy of the Mass in the form called “ordinary” does not really have the same theological signification as the one of the liturgy in the form called “extraordinary”; whence there is an obvious incompatibility between the two rites!… This is where the crux of the problem lies .
Alas! at Vatican II, the bishops assembled in council, were, in “transforming” the liturgy, digging a ditch between Catholics and consequently breaking the unity of the Church. If these changes were purely formal, there would not have been any difficulty that the two rites coexist, as it is the case with regard to other ancient rites… They ran out of prudence and perhaps even of Faith. They have made more than an error, they committed an offence. This situation is therefore deadlocked and it is up to them, primarily responsible, to find a just and equitable solution.
Saint Paul to the Galatians 1,8: “but though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any Gospel other than that which you received, let him be anathema!” I feel that the Church official Authorities do not care about what was said by the Apostles and notably Saint Paul more particularly!… They mention what he said but do not think less, their main arguments to free themselves from his teaching are that “he is of another time” and “he did not know Jesus during his earthly life”. I heard these arguments many times!”
What can we do more besides praying?
Just to cheer us all up!
I wouldn’t advise anyone with a cheerless disposition to read this. Better if it was removed.
May God have mercy on us all.
Thanks for that very interesting link. I remember studying Brave New World at college and thinking it was all too far fetched! How wrong can one be? Strictly rhetorical question 🙂
Looks like the beginning of the end for the Archdiocese of Glasgow…
All part of the “springtime of Vatican II” of course…
Could any parishioners of Saint Andrew’s SSPX Glasgow tell me if there is Mass for the feast of Saint Andrew tomorrow? Would it be at 11am as usual? And is it a sung Mass?
Yes, there is a Mass at 11a.m. and it is a Sung Mass. Unfortunately Edinburgh’s usual Saturday Mass has been cancelled which hasn’t gone down too well. Apart from the fact it’s our National Day St Andrew is also the patron of our Archdiocese.
I read your post earlier and thought we could have a bit of fun tormenting you with it, so went looking for a video on YouTube, Googling “funny Scots videos”.
I can truthfully say I have seldom felt so embarrassed about being Scots. On this, the eve – almost the day itself – of the Feast of our Patron Saint, I think, far from posting a Scots video or joke, I will merely make a plea for ever more urgent prayers for the return of our native land to the Catholic religion. Nothing less will eradicate what appears to be the innate crudeness of Scottish men (didn’t find any videos with women, so not being biased!) There were a couple that could have been hilarious but for the descent into bad language and crudity.
Anyway, with five minutes to go, allow me to be first to wish everyone, a very happy St Andrew’s Day.
Oh that’s a shame. The Irn Bru adverts are always a good laugh. Like the one in the school:
I went to a youth Mass like this once. Phenomenal liturgy. Now that’s what you call a sung Mass!
I went to a youth Mass like this once. Phenomenal liturgy. Now that’s what you call a sung Mass!
Ils ont l’air sympatiques ces étudiants!
Although they look “sympathiques”, I cannot beleive that it is a “sung Mass”!!! just fun…
You torment someone Editor? Never! A happy St Andrew’s Day all the same although it will be a rather sad day across the country due to the helicopter crash on the Glasgow pub. Latest figures are 32 injured but still people trapped in the building.
It has just been confirmed that there are three people dead. May they rest in peace.
Just seen it on the news – tragic.
Any explanation why this Mass was cancelled? For the people of Scotland, this feast of their Patron Saint is very important, so why cancel it? Has anyone asked the Priests about this matter?
When Fr Black (a Scot) was the District Superior he started the tradition of the Superior coming to Scotland to celebrate Mass in honour of St. Andrew and he would say Mass in Edinburgh in the morning and in Glasgow in the evening. After he left this changed, without any explanation, to just Mass in Glasgow presumably because the chapel there is dedicated to St. Andrew. This hasn’t
gone down too well in Edinburgh given that it is the Capital City and being the National Day (as well as the saint being the patron of the Archdiocese) there was no real reason why there shouldn’t be a Mass. This year the Feast falls on a Saturday and as Edinburgh usually has Mass every Saturday morning folk naturally assumed there would be Mass but last Sunday it was announced there would be no Mass. No explanation was given but presumably as Mass in Glasgow will be at 11am and is a High Mass both the “Scottish” priests will be acting as sub deacons.
I see, well that is all a great pity. These cultural things are very important to people – particularly in these troubled times. I am just amazed that no-one has actually asked why these changes have occurred. Are the laity too afraid to ask the Priests anything? This is not a healthy situation as it creates a ‘bad spirit’ in a group – something the Devil will make best use of! Also, to create ‘a culture of fear’ is not good. Back in Ireland in times past, people were absolutely terrified of the Priest and no-one challenged anything. One would hope that the ‘restoration’ of the Church will not bring back those dreadful times. I would suggest you all turn to St Andrew in ardent prayer for help.
I went to Mass on Friday at my parish church [NOM] it being the anniversary of the birth  of Msgr. Lefebvre.
You really can work to get more for Scotland from the SSPX. Just try to turn them into Scottish priests. Get flyers and pamphlets of historical places in your area to give to them. Plus give them books on your history and also research and write down all of the high or low points of your particular place. You can also give them Scottish food, etc. Help them to remember everyone’s first name at your chapel. Then you pray that they love Scotland like Our Lord does and that they have the grace to lay down their lives for their Scottish sheep.
Also Little Therese is the patron of missionaries so she is a very powerful help.
Just keep at it. Don’t be critical, just promote Scotland.
Oh wait a minute, I wrote “don’t be critical”. Scratch that. Go ahead be critical.
Being critical of the Society Priests in the UK, can earn you the warning: “Become a docile member of the congregation, or leave!” Maybe that is why no-one in Scotland has dared questioned these matters.
I sure have heard a lot of critism in the various missions where I’ve been. I never cared about the mundane things, like the layout of the bulletin or whether or not the priest wanted the parish dinner in room A or B. Whatever.
Cancellations were another thing. If someone were sick or if there was a funeral or something that’s understandable. Otherwise I would call him up, express everyone’s disappointment, and ask if the chapel could have something extra to make up for it. This way if something is taken away, it’s an opportunity to get twice back.
Well, once again Dear Lady, that’s how you American folks would act, and American Priests would understand that perfectly. All I can say is that, here in the UK, things are very different, and (in my experience) it would not be tolerated.
Or, someone could just make sure they know that no. 174 in the black St Andrew’s Hymn book is the hymn to St Joseph, not St Andrew, before no. 174 is announced for singing at the end of Mass on St Andrew’s day next year.
That would be “Scottish” enough, in my book (if you’ll pardon the pun.)
Could have been St. Andrew hinting about something.
So did someone announce the correct number? Is that the black hymnal that came from Australia? Nobody likes them because a lot of our hymns aren’t in it and even when there is a hymn we use often it has different words.
My dear lady, I gather you live in the USA, is that right? Your lovely comments could only be written by an American! You are SO pro-active, enthusiastic and innovative. I love it.
However, none of that will work here in the UK my dear. Nope, not a chance!
When I read of the way that the St Andrew Feast has been ‘sidelined’, I found it hard to believe that the Scottish people have taken this lying down without a fight. Not what William Wallace would have done is it? (And yes, I do know he had his faults, but he did not have the ‘care of Souls’.
It is true that if you want something bad enough you will definitely fight for it.
We are very blessed with the priests we have in Scotland and if we have to fight anything, let’s put our energies into fighting the modernism in the Church and thank God for the SSPX. The SSPX is not perfect, that’s for sure, but it’s perfect enough for us up here in Scotland – be assured. The alternative is just too awful to contemplate!
Hold your horses, Editor! 🙂 Fighting for, as in “for”. Not fighting against. Never thought it, never wrote it.
If you want the Mass you will fight for it.
No-one is asking for perfection – just ‘Priestly Graciousness’ when lay people come to ask for help, support – and a reasonable explanation when problems occur. To feel that they are loved and cared for and that they matter!
The problems outside the ‘Trad Church’ are bad enough, but if we ignore problems WITHIN the trad church, then that will finish us!
The Irish Philosopher Edmund Burke said: “The only thing need for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing” Well, the good people in the Trad Church cannot afford to ‘do nothing’!
Please let this matter drop. You are completely misunderstanding things if you think Scots are afraid to speak out about anything. Now, please let the matter drop. For goodness sake, quoting Edmund Burke and Pius X about such a trivial matter. Gerragrip.
Well indeed, that should be true dear lady. However, in the UK, people have a tendency to be self-effacing and deferential – it’s a cultural thing – like not complaining about bad food in a restaurant.
If a group of Catholics are worried, concerned, or want to know why there has been Mass cancellations for no apparent reason – why do they feel too afraid to ask for a reasonable explanation?
This would suggest that there is not a healthy relationship of trust between the Priests and the laity. Indeed, maybe a ‘culture of fear’ has sprung up, and that is not right. Our Blessed Lord did NOT rule by fear.
I would suggest that laity and Priests need to be aware of these situations occurring, and endeavour to ‘work together’ to find a resolution for the good of all.
There’s nobody in Scotland whose self effacing and deferential. Take my word for it.
That’s for sure! hehe
I think you’ve misinterpreted the situation somewhat. Vianney would be the very last person to want to turn a mild annoyance about a Mass change into something else. Edinburgh and Glasgow are only about an hour apart, so don’t worry about ‘care of souls’.
With all due respect, I don’t think I have misinterpreted anything. There have been at least two post comments stating that these unexplained Mass changes in Scotland “have not gone down too well…”
So, people are quite upset about things, but appear to be TOO AFRAID to ask for a reasonable explanation. The Catholic laity are adults, not school-children, and not illiterate medieval peasants. They simply need to be treated like mature grown-ups.
As for laypeople being pro-active, I came across this statement made by St Pius X: “THE MAIN OBSTACLE IN THE APOSTOLATE OF THE CHURCH IS THE TIMIDITY, OR RATHER THE COWARDICE, OF THE LAITY…” Now, this would suggest that this wonderful Pope was quite comfortable with lay persons ‘doing their bit alongside the Priest’.
Wow talk about making a mountain out a molehill. As editor has said, there are excellent transport links between Glasgow and Edinburgh and the journey time is relatively short.
Yorkshire Rose you seem to enjoy having something to complain about. Rest easy. There’s enough to complain about and fight against without getting your frillies in a twist about something that doesn’t even affect you.
The Scots are certainly not backward at coming forward as the saying goes. In fact, some of the English and American priests seemed to think we had too much to say. As I have said before it was Fr Black when he was Superior who made sure both cities got Mass on St. Andrew’s Day. After he moved to Australia Edinburgh was dropped but this was long before the opening of the Scottish priory. We were still being served from Preston at the time and when anyone questioned the decision they were more or less dismissed as the Scots moaning again. Because the Feast fell on a Saturday this year, and as we usually have Mass on Saturday morning, folk just assumed we would have Mass and were a bit annoyed about not having one. We do have a priory now and as Editor says, we are very blessed with the priests we have here. Unfortunately they are not left in peace to work in Scotland as one of them is always being taken away to help out elsewhere leaving the other to do all the work. This decision comes from outwith the country as was, I think, the decision to cancel Edinburgh’s Saturday Mass. At the end of the day it all pales into insignificance given that on our National Day we a country in mourning at the loss of eight of our fellow Scots.
I didn’t know Scotland had a priory.
Yes we do, it opened about three years ago.
Well, sheesh, why am I giving you guys helpful hints! I guess it’s in Edinburgh? I saw the pics of the two churches and read the history of the society in Scotland. I thought it was neat that the Edinburgh Chapel had a lending library (if they still do).
I actually know more about the Church in Scotland than I do about my own country now that I’ve read this blog for awhile.
The priory is a town called Carluke which is in Lanarkshire. Frankly it is a daft place to have it as it means the priests have a lot of travelling to get to the chapels. Who’s idea it was to purchase a house there is anybody’s guess.and it would have made a lot more sense to have been nearer one of the chapels.
Edinburgh still has the lending library and the chapel has just set up it’s own web site.
A library? Really? Can anyone pop in and use it? I might have to go there on Saturday. There is no first Saturday Mass in Glasgow this month.
Yes anyone can use it. It’s located in the cafe which is at the rear of the building so If you are in Edinburgh on Saturday come into the bookshop and I’ll take you through.
I chanced upon the Edinburgh SSPX parish website recently, I didn’t realise the site was quite new. The page on the history of the parish is interesting.
Here is the site for interested parties:
It would be a great idea for the Glasgow Church to have a website too, to increase its prominence, though I don’t know how feasible / affordable such is.
Hi Gabriel, I’m glad you found our web site interesting. We are only one of two SSPX chapels in the U.K. to have a web site, the other being the Leicester chapel.
A website is definitely a good idea, hopefully other SSPX sites will follow suit. I will look up the Leicester site too, you have pricked my curiosity!
(Sorry I used the word “parish” before, I know the SSPX do not claim their churches are parishes – as that would be to usurp the authority of the local diocesan structure.)
Given the recent news that umpteen parishes in Glasgow are to close, my guess is that they’ll soon be glad of any churches – SSPX or not – claiming to be “parishes” !
A very good point editor!
The Archdiocese of Glasgow is (in near future) running an event for Parish Council members (lay and clergy) from across Glasgow to attend.
(A friend gave me a leaflet for the event, second hand – let me know if you want a scanned copy of it emailed FYI)
The idea is to confront local decline in the Church and figure out ways to deal with it.
The document states that mass attendance has decline 51% in the last 25 years. What better testament to the great incompetence of failures like O’Brien, Conti, Devine, Winning etc. And what better display of ++Cushelys naivety, following his recent comment that “the fundamentals are good” in Scotland.
The document postulates that, in 20 years, the whole of Glasgow will only have 40-odd diocesan priests serving it (I forgot the exact number it states).
That they are forecasting decline decades into the future shows that the Archbishop is content to simply manage decline and not try to combat it.
This is where thinking outside the box is needed.
For example, ++Tartaglia could give faculties to the SSPX in Glasgow, meaning he had another means of providing the sacraments and could demonstrate that he is including traditional in his view of the diocese.
Or rather than close Churches, he could hand one over to the FSSP / ICKSP or similar, meaning he would then have a diocesan priest or two to redeploy elsewhere.
Of course, these would just be stop-gap measures until the Church returns to tradition – and, in any case, Bishops do not like to experiment or think creatively, unless it relates direct to the liturgy and ways to make it even more groovy and funky 😉
2 or 3 years ago the Episcopal church (or High English as they hate to be called) near to the Edinburgh chapel got a new minister who came up from England. He started advertising a “Parish Communion” but soon had to change it when it was pointed out to him that only the Catholic Church and the Kirk have parishes and all the rest, Methodists, Piskies etc have congregations. I know that officially the SSPX chapels are not parishes but many who attend do refer to them as such because they never go near their own parishes and regard the SSPX chapel as their parish. Someone pointed out to me that there are actually two different kinds of parish, The diocesan territorial parish and the personal parish which is usually a language parish for the likes of Poles, Italians etc. or a Rite parish such as the Ukrainian Rite or the Syro-Malabar Rite and, in some places, the Tridentine Rite.
I was reading the new Fatima Crusader lately. I’m always interested in what Fr. Malachi Martin revealed about the Third Secret but the more people tell about their conversations with him the longer the secret grows. I don’t see how one could fit all of that into twenty five lines. Maybe some of it is interpretation or speculation? I would think the part about apostasy in the Church would take up quite a bit of those lines.
What is the best explanation for Our Lady saying that in Portugal the Dogma of Faith would always be preserved? Everyone points to other parts of the Church losing the Faith while Portugal keeps It. Is Portugal presently more faithful than other Countries? Or does this point to a future decision that countries will make?
Church attendance in Portugal for Catholics is 30% per week, the same in Spain. The southern parts of these countries are more religious. Both have a couple of thousand seminarians, but don’t ask me for an exact figure. I believe in points to a future decision. Believe you me, once the Pope gets a grip and consecrates Russia then the world will become faithful.
It seems to me that everyone has taken those words of Our Lady to Sister Lucia “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc.” as an absolute given that the Faith will always be preserved in that country, come what may. But we simply don’t know the words Our Lady spoke after the word ‘preserved’ other than the ‘etc’ subsequently inserted by Sister Lucia. What if Our Lady was giving a conditional prophecy – i.e. “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved IF this or that is done . . . ” The fact that the Faith seems to be in crisis in Portugal, the same as everywhere else, seems to suggest something like that.
What is the safest way to regard Garabandal? I am aware this apparition has not been approved, but I have done some research and I strongly feel it is authentic. I was previously sceptical because of what I had read by the the Mariologist D. Folly in an excellent book of his about the Medjugorje phenomena. However, he toes the party line regarding the Consecration and the Third Secret. He has some good insights but he’s not infallible. Could I have some advice?
I think 3LittleShepherds have said it all but I would only add this: why on EARTH would anybody want to bother about unapproved apparitions at this horrendous time of crisis in the Church, when the key to ending the crisis in world and Church is Fatima? Why not put all energy into spreading that message, instead of investigating unapproved apparitions? I just do not understand it. No offence intended – I suppose it’s a natural curiosity but my advice is, ignore Garabandal as you avoid Medjugorje. They’re both dodgy. To say the least.
My mother had some early books about Garabandal written while Vatican II was going on. She didn’t follow it other than having the two books. I read them later and I can say that it was reported in one of those books that Our Lady told the girls that the Second Vatican Council would be a success. That and many other things turned me way off. I don’t like having to make excuses for weird stuff in apparitions. Some things I don’t trust about Garabandal are that the apparition told the children to bring unblessed objects for her to kiss, she kissed rocks!, she told the girls to throw holy water in the air instead of on her as someone had told them to do, (supposedly the holy water landed on a girl and converted her, so what) the nonsense about Padre Pio sending a letter to the girls but unfortunately the post mark was blurred! the girls running backwards, the girls saying they could not feel the baby Jesus when He was placed in their arms! All too weird for me. I’ve wondered if perhaps someone involved might have had some knowledge of the Third Secret but I don’t believe Our Lady appeared there. I don’t know why good people, priests believe in it some times. Probably because the message sounds so good. Maybe they thought the devil tried to confuse things. I reject all of it.
Spot on. I agree with you completely. And as I’ve said to Miles above, why anyone would bother with unapproved apparitions when we have the urgent task of helping to spread the message of Fatima, beats me.
Well, that’s me told.
That’s the spirit 🙂
And you know, seriously, don’t you, that I’m right?
Recommended answer = YES…
One of the original three wise men, obviously 🙂
Editor, and there was me thinking Maggie Thatcher was deid!
Well, my middle name is Margaret, so go figure!
Why am I not surprised?
Our favourite harpy, Collette Douglas-Home, seems to be promoting Mejugorje in todays Herald (probably because the Church has condemned it).
I have read my quota of free Herald articles for this period, (!), so I cant read any more than:
“I WAS a sceptic when I went on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje.
There were a dozen of us. We came from different backgrounds and religious traditions but each was on some sort of spiritual quest. By the end of our week together in Bosnia most, possibly all of us, had experienced something extraordinary.”
If anyone can give more info, Id be morbidly curious to see what nonsense she is talking this week.
Just tried and it’s asking me for a subscription saying I’ve exceeded my quota but it said that weeks ago when I got round to re-signing to read the Herald online. I don’t think I’ve read the allowed quote (4 or 6 articles) so I’m suspicious.
This is pretty shocking stuff but if it gets us back on our knees……………….
This is now an annual event.
I don’t really see the point of people just standing there to act as targets for abuse.
Where would such helplessness have got us at Lepanto or Malta?
I wonder if there is not a more robust and effective way to respond to such behaviour, which would knock it on the head once and for all.
‘I wonder if there is not a more robust and effective way to respond to such behaviour, which would knock it on the head once and for all’.
I think burning at the stake is illegal.
I am truly humbled by the dignity of these young Catholic men in the face of the diabolical evils of the lesbian, gay, femi-nazi and atheist movement. Homosexualists and cohorts are the true enemy of civilised society, and we are reaping the pestiferous rewards of this.
Where is Tomas De Torquemada when you need him?
I attended the Sung mass for St Andrews day, at the Glasgow Church last Saturday.
It went very well and the mass was beautifully celebrated. Fair play to the singing contingent – Fr McLaughlin and a male Parishioner. I thought they did very well, especially having had no organ to back them.
I presume the celebrant was District Superior, Fr Paul Morgan? I was impressed by him (his homily and general demeanour).
There was perhaps a congregation of ~40 people present in the small church – it struck me as sad to think of the many Catholics who would be passing-by outside in close proximity and who have never experienced such mass, and who are completely ignorant of the fullness and beauty of their faith tradition.
It would be super to have a sung mass regularly at St Andrews, but I guess it is non-practical with current resources (esp if Fr McLaughlin is required to take on singing duties!).
I thought there was a monthly Sung Mass in the Glasgow chapel. In Edinburgh we have a Sung Mass on the first Sunday of the month and we have a very good choir of six who do a really good job.
No, I think the regular sung masses ended in Glasgow a few years back, based on what others have told me.
I have been going to St Andrews for about a year now; initially as just an occasional visitor, now most weeks. The St Andrews day mass was the 1st sung mass I have encountered there.
If this recent event represents an effort to reintroduce them, that would be great news.
In Edinburgh we have a Sung Mass on the first Sunday of the month and we have a very good choir of six who do a really good job.
Thanks for the info, I will definitely need to visit that mass one day. (I have visited the FSSP in Edinburgh before, but not the SSPX as yet).
Shocking story from down-south. These past few years I have heard many horror stories about forced adoptions in the UK, our secret family courts where victims of child stealing are gagged, and Stalinistic social services who prey on the vulnerable and voiceless (of course, they’re ineffectual in dealing with genuine abuse cases, i.e. Baby P, Victoria Climbie, Daniel Pelka). I also suspect there is an element of discrimination because of her mental heath problems. I hope someone stands up for her and takes them to court.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they give this baby to homosexuals. I am sure there are going to be law suits and films made about this kind of stuff in thirty years.
We’ve learned nothing since the Rochdale Satanic abuse cases in the 1990s (where loads of kids were wrongly stolen by hysterical social workers). These same Rochdale social workers did nothing to protect the victims of the Muslim paedophile gangs there.
Positively Mengelian. Real horror-film stuff.
And I agree that in a few decades we will have lawsuits and films made about the “devil may care” approach to childcare, sexuality, family matters etc which the Government are currently pursuing.
Even the Soviets were courteous enough to wait for the child to be actually born! I thought we had stopped forced surgery on the mentally ill in the 1960s? I’m surprise the social services didn’t go all the way and have her lobotomised.
The authorities will start taking children off christians one day. You mark my words.
I’ve always liked this part of a letter St. Therese wrote. It’s a good reminder to pray that we keep the Faith.
St. Therese wrote, ” If, for example, I were to say: ‘I have acquired such or such a virtue and I can practise it’; or again: ‘My God, Thou knowest I love Thee too much to dwell on one single thought against faith,’ straightway I should be assailed by the most dangerous temptations and should certainly yield. To prevent this misfortune I have but to say humbly and from my heart: ‘My God, I beseech Thee not to let me be unfaithful.’
“I understand clearly how St. Peter fell. He placed too much reliance on his own ardent nature, instead of leaning solely on the Divine strength. Had he only said: ‘Lord, give me strength to follow Thee unto death!’ the grace would not have been refused him.
“How is it, Mother, that Our Lord, knowing what was about to happen, did not say to him: ‘Ask of Me the strength to do what is in thy mind?’ I think His purpose was to give us a twofold lesson–first: that He taught His Apostles nothing by His presence which He does not teach us through the inspirations of grace; and secondly: that, having made choice of St. Peter to govern the whole Church, wherein there are many sinners, He wished him to test in himself what man can do without God’s help. This is why Jesus said to him before his fall: ‘Thou being once converted confirm thy brethren’; that is, ‘Tell them the story of thy sin–show them by thy own experience, how necessary it is for salvation to rely solely upon Me.'”
My favourite saint, 3LitleShepherds, and thank you for that very thought-provoking extract from the writings of St Therese.
Bishop Fellay granted an interview about Pope Francis. I think it’s worth discussing.
I read the interview this morning and thought it was excellent.
Thurifer et al
I have posted an ongoing Pope Francis Latest thread so would you discuss the interview on that thread – otherwise we’ll be all over the place (like Pope Francis himself!)
I liked the interview very much. I would say it was one of his best. He reminded Catholics that we must know and love Our Lord first of all. There are those who put the knowledge of the crisis in the Church above the science of love and this is not right. He expressed a desire to help any priest, to help them to find the Mass, the Mass which belongs to them and in It’s offering to save souls and to overcome evil. His analysis of Pope Francis was interesting, and probably the best that can be done given that we don’t know the extent of the devil’s control.
I thought his thoughts on the consecration of Russia were interesting, too. Our Lord told Sr. Lucia that it’s never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary. I would think that He said that because it’s going to be a very dramatic finish.
Irish university bans counselling for ‘gay’ students that helps them be less gay. Weird. That’s like saying: “You’re a gay, and you have to stay one, don’t you dare try to be less gay!”
Paris, le Mercredi 4 décembre 2013
Commemoration of the fiftieth anniversary of the Constitution of Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium (4th December 1963).
There is no room for complacency!
Let us be clear:
For more than half a century, the Church Authorities have acted without regard for the sensibility of the faithful who were rightly scandalized and mostly deserted churches, whilst the others most assiduous were precipitated into schism… Now, such authorities are undoubtedly responsible for this situation and will have to be accountable.
It is sad to see, but after such conduct, the credibility of the Magisterium has been durably undermined and this could lead us to doubt the reliability and even the existence of papal infallibility… It would be very serious, possibly even worse than the antics and tribulations of the past!…
How can we trust personages who have deceived us for so long?
“Pray for him, he is a a bad pope”
I would not criticize my Father, I will pray for him what ever he does…
Please remember the late Nelson Mandela in your prayers, and pray for his Holy Soul, and commend him to God. Also remember his family.
Actually, catholic convert, I’m sick to the back teeth of hearing about Mandela. You would think he was a saint the way the media have reacted.
Petrus, I agree with you
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you, but we should pray for him as an act of Christian charity, just as we pray for Hitler.
“Pray for him, he is a bad pope”
I would not criticize my Father, I will pray for him whatever he does…
A joyous Feast Day of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary to one and all. May we, on this holy day seek to ask Our Holy Mother for guidance, intercession and purity.
Here’s my favourite Marian hymn, if you’re interested:
We sang this in Edinburgh after Mass today.
This is absolutely magnificent! / C’est absolument magnifique!
Thank you Catholic Convert!
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur. Vive la France!!
What is the difference between heterodoxy and heresy?
In my opinion, these words are synonymous with a shade size…
I think that heterodoxy includes a general term while a heresy relates to a more precise particular point of doctrine.
Or, Lionel, put another way, heterodoxy is a mixture of truth and error. Heresy is an outright error.
And, of course, as somebody once said:
‘Orthodoxy is my doxy; heterodoxy is another man’s doxy.‘
That is better, Christine!
Look at this- pure sickness, that’s all I can call it. We are rebelling against God’s Law and are reaping the pestiferous consequences. The people who support this are perverts, abnormal and moral imbeciles, who need horswhipping.
This is disgusting!
Bishop Stephen Robson appointed to Dunkeld. This is good news. He is VERY friendly to the Traditional Mass and has even learnt how to celebrate it himself (and did so in his last parish). He has condemned abortion in the very strongest of terms and is very intelligent. This is a big step in the right direction, especially after the mess Bishop Logan has left behind.
I posted the news of Bishop Robson’s appointment on the lead thread this morning, rather less delighted about it than you appear to be. He’s certainly not applying Canon 915 to MPs who vote evil behavioiur into law. Click here to reach the lead thread
Let’s see if he makes provision for the Dunkeld clergy to learn the TLM and we’ll keep an eye on his attitude to the moral issues. Don’t recall him contradicting the Pope, however, when he said not to “obsess” about abortion etc. And, as I say, we reported on his correspondence with a reader over Canon 915 in a recent newsletter.
Still, maybe he will change his ways now. We can but pray and hope.
Since the lead thread is about the salvation of souls, and I chose to post the news there for obvious reasons, I suggest anyone who wishes to comment on the new appointment does so on the lead thread, linked in this comment. Please and thank you 🙂
Does anyone know of a publishing company, besides the Angelus Press, that has Catholic books and gifts for young children? Or an ebayer?
I used to buy things at a NO store that were pretty good but I moved and there’s not much for children where I now live.
I also googled around but either the books are vintage and rather expensive or they’re too contemporary and silly.
Perhaps you missed the link given by Ann Shirley on the Christmas gifts thread. Click here to check it out.
Here are some outlets I sometimes use:
Both of the above have books for kids.
One of my favourite publishers is:
But their range is more adult orientated.
Hope these help.
Thank you. I’ll check those out. I’ve heard of Carmel books but I’ve never looked into what they have.
Thank you Editor, I did miss that.
I’ve discovered that if you click on the word “Follow” at the top of the page, then WordPress will automatically email you the title of every new blog post as it goes online. Not every comment of course – just blog posts. That way you won’t miss any topics.
From the SSPX’s US district.
” Fr. Rostand outlines the forthcoming Rosary Crusade what the USA District will be doing to promote it – such as the traveling Pilgrim Statue of Our Lady of Fatima to the SSPX’s chapels.
December 8, 2014
We are invited to a new Rosary Crusade from January 1, 2014 to the Feast of Pentecost (June 8, 2014). This is an occasion to revive our devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
A Rosary Crusade is a spiritual expedition or campaign to obtain special blessings and graces from God. Here are the goals:
To implore from the Immaculate Heart of Mary a special protection for the traditional apostolate; For the return to Tradition within the Church; For the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary by the consecration of Russia.
In addition to saying the rosaries we are invited to special generosity, for example:
Prayer and penance as asked for at Fatima; Sanctification through the duty of state; A spirit of sacrifice in union with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
We need an ongoing spirit of Crusade, to renew our spiritual life, to participate in this triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to obtain from God a blossoming of His Church, to be protected in danger.
With that in mind, at the end of this Rosary Crusade on the Feast of Pentecost, we will have a statue of Our Lady of Fatima starting a pilgrimage across the District of the United States of America to maintain in us the crusader spirit and call many others to join us.
This Pilgrim Statue of Our Lady will be taken from chapel to chapel all around the country. On that occasion, a Marian mission in honor of her Immaculate Heart will be held in order to form in our hearts a true and profound devotion to Her.
Sure of your generous and enthusiastic response to this great cause, I am most happy to bless your efforts for the greater glory of God and of our Beloved Mother.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Fr. Arnaud Rostand
Thanks for posting that, 3LittleShepherds – sounds wonderful. There will, undoubtedly be lots of graces flow from this latest Rosary Crusade and the associated events.
Seems Catholic schools do NOT cause bigotry – it official. Click here to read more.
I saw that on the BBC website during my weekend away.
A long overdue statement by the Scottish Government, though it is sad that we require to state the obvious in modern Scotland. Especially when the Governments own figures show that over half of Scottish Catholics marry non-Catholics; this is hardly the fruit of an isolationist and bigoted educational system.
Its strange that official discussions on sectarianism generally revolve around Catholic schools, yet never manage to address the very many obvious examples of specific anti-Catholicism in all sectors of Scottish society, including sport, religion, politics, media and law.
Does anyone know the name and author of an explanation of what will be taught during the time of the anti-christ? I think it was written by a priest and was somewhat well known. It ended with something like, “they will teach that the way to heaven, is the road to hell.”
I googled and all but can’t find it.
In one of the city centre churches I picked up an order of service for the Requiem Mass of an elderly lady that had taken place a few days ago. The recessional “hymn” was “When you were sweet sixteen.” I kid you not. I’m thinking of having ye cannae shove yer granny of the bus at my funeral.
That’s priceless. “Sweet Sixteen” as a recessional hymn? I’d love to have been a fly on the wall just to see if anyone, anyone at all, looked amazed or tried to suppress a smile at the nonsense of it all.
As for your choice, love it, but I think I’d choose “Oh the wanderlust is oe-r me…”
I’d have thought “I’m no awa tae bide awa, I’ll aye come back and haunt ye” would be your choice, lol.
At my funeral my coffin is going to be carried down the aisle by two 6 foot tall men at the back and two 4 foot tall men at the front, dancing to the Laurel and Hardy tune.
Incase anyone is interested:
I have been informed that Immaculate Heart Of Mary Parish (Barlornock, Glasgow) is providing a sung latin mass (1962 missal) for midnight mass, preceeded by Christmas Carols at 11.30 pm.
How lovely, Gabriel. Alas, the lack of transport means I will not be able to attend.
I love Midnight Mass, it has an atmosphere all of it’s own. We are very blessed that the Edinburgh chapel has Midnight Mass and we have people attending who come from as far away as Brora parish in Sutherland, as well as some of the local Novus Ordo Catholics who come because, unlike the three local chapels, we have Midnight Mass at it’s proper time. if anyone is able to attend you will be very welcome and mulled wine and Christmas munchettes (as Hyacinth Bucket would say) will be served afterwards.
I agree Vianney, I love midnight mass too.
I think the proliferation of the Christmas eve vigil-type masses at 5, 6 or 7pm is very sad. I call these the “get it out the way” masses, and they seem popular so people can still go to the pub / wherever afterwards.
Some clergy defend this practice by saying the people want these earlier masses and they get a higher attendance. But I feel they should have stuck fast to midnight – better that 50 people turn up for midnight mass because they really want to be there, than 100 people turn up in a glib, unthinking fashion at 7pm (en route to the pub).
Yes Gabriel, I agree with you regarding these Vigil Masses. I know of one church in the Edinburgh Archdiocese where the Midnight Mass was replaced by two Vigil Masses at 5p.m and 7p.m. and the reason given was “safety” because too many people were attending the Midnight Mass. Why the couldn’t keep the Midnight Mass and have an earlier Mass for those who wanted it I don’t know. Perhaps the priest was like one I heard about in England who told his parishioners that the reason there would be no Midnight Mass was because he wanted to go to his bed. One of my colleagues told me about a church in one of the housing schemes where there had been no Midnight Mass for a few years. The parish was run by an order and they got a new Superior who wanted to reintroduce the Mass at Midnight. The other priest told him that people wouldn’t turn out at that time. “How many come to the 7 p.m.. Vigil Mass on Christmas Eve” the new priest asked. “About 50-60” was the reply. The Superior decided to go ahead with Mass at Midnight despite the other priests protestations that it would be a disaster and nobody would turn up and when Mass started the church was packed to standing room only.
I think things are so very bad now in the Church that I’m unwilling to abandon the SSPX chapel for the purpose of attending these occasional Masses by priests who, however good they are personally, are propping up the revolution. All the people who will be present at that Mass, should be at an SSPX Mass. End of. After all, the only reason they have that Mass in Balornock is because of Archbishop Lefebvre.
And as I’ve already said many times of late, I am increasingly of the view that it’s not possible to have a foot in both camps and that is what too many orthodox priests and laity are trying to do. Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds.
Sorry if this all sounds harsh and “extreme” – but I’ll be attending Mass in St Andrew’s as usual on Christmas Day, although the thought of meeting Hyacinth Bucket just might encourage me to head for Edinburgh this year!
“although the thought of meeting Hyacinth Bucket just might encourage me to head for Edinburgh this year!”
Editor, “It’s Bouquet,”
Yes, Vianney, “The Bouquet residence, the lady of the house speaking…”
I just popped by to share this interesting piece of news – the most popular name in Glasgow this year is …. Muhammed.
Whatever happened to “Hamish”?
I saw that news about the names too Editor – in a way its not surprising, given the variety of modern, crackpot / “made-up” names which are so popular among secularists in our post-protestant society.
One thing which baffles me at times is the popularity of Gaelic names in the central belt, though at least these many be directly related to Christianity or at least Scotland. (My own wife is a fan of these – eg prefers Mairead to Margaret etc).
Sorry, I was not encouraging people to “abandon” the SSPX, I was only passing on something I had been told. I thought it an attractive prospect because most people of my generation (including me!) have never had the chance to attend such a midnight mass before.
(I know ultimately that it is the content of mass and the sacraments which are important, but no-one can deny the special beauty of a sung mass – as we saw at St Andrews Church on St Andrews day).
Ive always had a special affection for Midnight mass, even in preference to Christmas morning masses.
I wholeheartedly agree that if it wasn’t for the brave efforts of ++Lefebvre, then no-one would have access to such masses and that all of us owe him the SSPX a great debt. (Just as do many Diocesan Priests, Una Voce etc also owe them too).
I also agree that one cannot have conflicting loyalties, but I do think isolation / rifts between “traditionalists” are a great weakness, as they allow modernist hierarchs to easily ignore or compartmentalise them. I think people should work together as far as they are able for common goals.
I think its a good thing that some diocesan priests try to promote tradition – even if (in some cases) its “just the mass”. (Though I must say that I personally have never encountered significantly different stances, between the SSPX, traditional Diocesan priests and the FSSP – although admittedly my experience is limited). I think it is good for Catholics who are ignorant about tradition to be able to experience it, as that starts them thinking about things. (After all, I first learned about tradition from hearing Gregorian chant in – of all places – a Jesuit parish!).
And I know that we in Glasgow are very lucky to have an SSPX presence here – a presence which we must cherish and support. I now attend St Andrews most Sundays, save when I am unable (e.g. during my recent time away in England).
You can be assured of my ongoing support for St Andrews! (but surely this does not forbid me from attending the occasional Diocesan or Una Voce event?)
See you on Sunday!
In the days of Fr. Black (SSPX) the Society, in the UK, fostered good relations and exchanges with like minded Diocesan clergy and even Anglo-Catholics of the true variety.
In Australia, again with Fr. Black, cordial relations existed between SSPX and FSSP clergy.
Every effort should be made to develop such relationships, although, I admit the Local Bishops might be a stumbling block, who may well act against their priests who participate. But they do in any event.
I won’t repeat my reply to Gabriel Syme (see below) on the subject of support for groups such as the FSSP, except to add two things: firstly, that as things worsen in the Church, I believe it is imperative to throw our support unequivocally behind the SSPX – the only place where the purity of the Faith is to be found in this time of unprecedented crisis, which brings me to my second point, illustrative of the first,
The FFPX is certainly popular with Pope Francis and he with them. Click here to read Dowry article in the current edition of the FSSP magazine.
I rest my case.
I think you misunderstand, Madam Editor.
On the present projectory, we are approaching a crunch situation [FFI as one example and the German situation as yet another] therefore, it seems sensible for SSPX to identify potential friends as a precursor to joint action in the light of the worsening circumstance. Because there are Diocesan clergy as yet without the power of will to confront both the current and escalating mess, leaving them isolated plays into the hands of their Bishops. They need to know there are friends to assist them – come the day!
From what I can see, none of the priests in Scotland who offer the TLM under SP are in any danger whatsoever. They all get on famously with the hierarchy.
And, in any case, I’m here to assist whoever needs my assistance. I just can’t attend their Masses – at least not on Sundays and Holydays – because I act as chauffeur to a thirty-something young mother of four who will not risk any contamination of her children at all. End of. She’s accompanied me to a weekday Mass on one occasion in a diocesan parish, but is very conscious of her duty to protect her children from all and every bad influence, and anything that may endanger their Faith.
Try arguing with a mother protecting her offspring. I’ve no intention of trying!
I was not meaning to “get at you” personally, and in normal circumstances I would agree – I have often attended (and still would if I could make it) some of the Masses in Balornock.
Also, Bishop Fellay said we were to support those priests who wanted to learn the old rite after the publication of Summorum Pontificum. I quoted that immediately on our blog and encouraged all and sundry to do so. I was delighted to read that exhortation at the time.
However, I believe things are different now- much worse – and anyway it’s not attending the old rite Mass that makes someone a “traditional” Catholic. There really is only one kind of Catholic – “traditional” – and that’s those who adhere to the entirety of Catholic Tradition, not only the Mass. Those who think nothing of exposing themselves and their children to the poison of Modernism which is now endemic in parishes throughout Scotland, through the newspapers on sale, the ecumenical activities advertised in bulletins and so on, are no more “traditionalist” than Hans Kung.
You refer to your own coming to the Mass via Gregorian chant in a Jesuit Church – but that’s different: that’s at the early, beginning stage. I’m not “damning” every NO Catholic – my comments are directed at those who are informed but who, for whatever reason, choose to take the easy route of staying “within the walls” – unlike St Athanasius who said “they have the buildings, we have the Faith.” I’m with St Athanasius!
I’m sure the midnight Mass/carols will be beautiful in Balornock, but I guess you’ll still see the chatterboxes in the pews beforehand (Father has done his best to end that, with SILENCE notices all round the Church, but I’m told that they get ignored) and you’ll still be facing a modern altar in front of the main altar. You’ll still be part and parcel of the revolution.
Having said all that, it’s not a mortal sin to support these Masses, whether FSSP or diocesan. Having just read Fr de Mallery’s article in Dowry, however, I wouldn’t label him “traditional” at all (I meant to post the link to that and will do later) but there you have it: I’m an extremist – as if you didn’t already know!
Wherever you attend Christmas Mass, Gabriel Syme, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas – God bless!
I didn’t take it as a personal criticism Editor, no worries, I just wanted to explain my thinking on the matter.
I do understand what you mean in the points you make and I would agree that there are likely many people who do take the easy-option while letting the SSPX bear the brunt of the slings and arrows in the fight for the faith.
It is a very good point you make about the subtle, poisonous things which people – perhaps especially the young – can be influenced by in a Diocesan parish: the newspapers which are not fit for use even as toilet roll, the nonsense of ecumenism as well as protestant opinions and practices.
This is something I shall certainly bear in mind, especially in the coming times when my wife and I will be trying to start a family. But then as said I would naturally see St Andrews as my family parish and cant think of a better place for a family to attend Sunday mass. (except maybe somewhere with free, on-site parking – haha!).
St Andrews has been a revelation for me – and I owe you a large debt for first encouraging me to visit and for being so welcoming (and patient!).
Have a great Christmas too, and a happy new year* when it comes!
(*did you know that Hogmany became popular in Scotland only after the Church of Scotland banned Christmas, on the grounds that celebrating the birth of Christ is unbiblical – haha, you couldn’t make it up eh?).
A Federal Judge has just struck down Utah’s ban on same sex sodomite marriage. I bet the Latter Day Saints have gone mad. How is it that a decision voted in democratically by the good people of Utah is suppressed by an unelected judge, who has no democratic legitimacy? Same sex marriage and it’s supporters are evil, and I look forward to the day when God punishes them in the harshest way imaginable.
Unfortunate comments from Gerhard Mueller:
Lefebvrians are de facto schismatic
It seems we now have a new category of “de facto schismatic”, which is somehow distinct from “schismatic”, (which we know the SSPX are most certainly not).
This seems similar to the odd and unexplained distinction between “communion” and “full communion”.
I think I’ll post a separate thread on this – had an email yesterday from a man in England who still insists that the SSPX is “outside the Church” – so hold fire, folks, as it’s easier to follow ideas if we keep the comments together on one thread (not entirely possible, I know, but worth a try.)
See “Rorate” report: ++Mueller states SSPX “de facto in schism”, but who cares? Germany, Aistria, et al, are all in “de facto” schism, but for contradicting The Faith, unlike SSPX who preach and administer |The Faith. The lunatics have taken over the Curia, if not the asylum.
I’ve now posted a thread on Archbishop Muller’s nonsense here, although, as you say, “who cares”. Still, it’s good to keep a record of the sheer hypocrisy and ignorance.
Franciscan Sisters refute and condemn Fr Volpis hatchet job on the Franciscans of the immaculate:
Fr. Volpi’s accusations “totally unfounded” and they “offend our entire Institute, and consequently, we refute them completely
I like the way they throw Pope Francis’s words back at him – that’s great. But the next stage for this Order has to be on another level, such as seeking refuge under the auspices of the SSPX – the only place in the Church at the present time, where they will find peace.
Perhaps we could all say a few prayers over Christmas for this order that they will put themselves under the umbrella of the SSPX.
As the Editor will tell you, I’m not one to judge people……………where’s that hysterical laughter coming from? But I did get a lesson yesterday in not jumping to conclusions. Our chapel in Edinburgh is on a busy street and we get a lot of “passing trade” in all kinds of people. Not only visiting Traditionalists, Novus Ordo Catholics, and non Catholics of different persuasions. We have even had the odd, some might say very odd, Editor, but yesterday we had four Muslim girls. They arrived about an hour before Mass and, although three of them had woolen hats on one did have a head square tied the “Muslim way.” but I thought that they might be Eastern Europeans. One of them asked if it would be alright if they attended Mass and I said yes.Later on someone came up to and said that there were four girls praying in the porch ( we have a very large porch) and she added that she thought they they were Muslims because they we bowing down and turning looking right and then left. When they came back in they did confirm they were Muslims. They were very respectful at Mass and followed in a Mass book. But then I started to have bad thoughts. “Perhaps they were suicide bombers.” I thought that perhaps they were seeking revenge for the conviction of the killers of the soldier in England. They all had back packs with them and I have to confess I started watching them like a hawk, and on one occasion they whispered something and one of them bent down to her bag and started fiddling with it. “This is it” I thought to myself, but then she stopped and continued reading her Mass book. After Mass they all disappeared and I felt very ashamed at judging people like that. Of course the majority of Muslims are not terrorists and I know that many are good people, like the one who runs the local stationary shop and takes ridiculously low prices from me when I go for photocopies because “it’s for the church.” Why those girls were at Mass I don’t know. Perhaps the Holy Ghost is working on them, perhaps He was working on me to teach me not to judge but it has taught me not to tar everyone with the same brush. A happy and Holy Christmas to everyone.
Maybe they were about to do the awful deed when one of them whispered “maybe the editor of CT is here, and we don’t want to appear as a cartoon in the next edition” 🙂
If those four wee Muslim lassies come the Church again and inform you or the Reverend Fathers that they desire to convert, then you will have to protect them because if they ‘apostasise’ they will be on the list for an honour killing. Or alternatively they are sizing your Church up to convert it to a Mosque? Is your Church booming or is it declining? If it’s the latter watch out, or else. Keep your beadies on them.
Our church is booming and I don’t think they were “casing the joint.” Perhaps they were looking for a mosque and couldn’t find one, the mystery remains.
Here is some interesting news:
“Many of those who were enthusiastic about Francis, will have their jubilation stuck in their throats”.
– Monsignor Georg Gänswein
Gänswein’s opinion, together with statements by Cardinal Kurt Koch, at any rate, is a signal that a resistance is being organized in the German speaking countries against the rebel faction.
Finally, the Pope has summoned none other than the chairman of the German Bishops’ Conference, Archbishop Robert Zollitsch
About female deacons:
Gänswein – “I hardly think the Pope the Pope will be compelled in his pontificate by certain German initiatives”
And on possible changes to admission to the sacraments:
“In what has now become a customary opposition between teaching and pastoral today” can not be the way of the Church, as such a contrast contradicts the very essence of being Church. “New Pastoral was are only to be found in the light of the truth of the doctrine,”
– Cardinal Kurt Koch
That is very interesting, indeed, Gabriel Syme. Will visit the source later but this seems like good news (at last!)
C’est vraiment inquiétant!
I mean that it is worrying that “females may have access to surely invalid sacred Orders”. That will raise great disturbances!…
I think this is a very interesting assessment of Pope Francis’s effect on the Church.
The only comment is from someone who says “just don’t visit the traddy blogs”. Since there’s a mention in the article of how few “faithful Catholics” there are (it says they are “an endangered species”) this seems to be admitting that the only “faithful” Catholics are “traddies”.
Since we must adhere to Catholic Tradition in order to be “faithful Catholics” that blogger is correct!
If someone asks about your religion, do you tell them that you’re a Catholic or a Traditional Catholic? I think the Traditional label seems kind of useful but I was taught while I was growing up not to use it. We were just “Catholic”.
Absolutely correct. I say that I’m a Catholic but add that since there is a crisis in the Church these days where people pick and choose what to believe, I’m “one of those old fuddy duddies who believes it all!” I then say that the label pinned to folk like me is “traditional” but since it’s not possible to be a Catholic and NOT be “traditional” I’m OK with that.
It’s quite a mouthful but it’s my way round “normalising” the creation of various “wings” of the Church and different “types” of Catholic.
Who’s a clever girl then 🙂
Exactly Ed, I just tell people that I’m a Catholic, but one who believes ‘the whole hog’, not one of these weak minded ‘cafeteria catholics’ who might go to Mass, but supports gay marriage, women Priests or abortions. These are non-Catholics.
‘When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
 Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains.’
Do you believe this prophesy by Christ in Matthew 24:15-16 is a prophesy directed at the grave departure from the sacrifice of the Mass, lack of belief in the Real Presence and widespread heresy in the Church? Also I would interpret the those with the full faith (SSPX) fleeing to the mountains in Switzerland? Would you look at it that way?
I’d be very interest in any comments regarding this article:
That’s a very interesting article. I found a few things to question in it, but I’m selecting just this one bit where it says:
“Not every challenge to accepted theology is heretical. There are many partial non-identifications that endanger faith and unity but do not rise to the level of schism. Nor does every act of disobedience to human laws in the Church imply schism.”
Talking about lapsed Catholics, which is what the article is really doing, this seems to me to be making a sort of excuse, that if people lapse because they question things somehow that’s not very serious or has to be taken into account when trying to get them back. Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but I think we’re supposed to accept things, even injustices, without complaining too much so to lapse because of something you don’t agree with should not be excused by a priest like this author. As I say, maybe I’ve not understood it properly but I got the feeling that the priest who wrote the article was looking to excuse lapsation instead of trying to get at the consciences of the lapsed. They’re in the wrong no matter what way you look at it. They have a duty to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments. There’s o excuse not to do so just because they might disagree with something.
I looked up the article that you wrote about on the rosary crusade post. I’ve read that many times. I do believe definitely that Our Lady explained the vision and that Sr. Lucia wrote down her words. I believe Pope John read it.
After this all the evidence is circumstantial and I don’t think the writer proved anything.
The single most imprudent act regarding the actual protection of the Third Secret was in 1958 when a journalist was allowed to take a photograph of the safe in the Papal apartments and a Mother Pasqualina told him the Third Secret was inside the safe! I know the photo was published in Paris-Match at the time but did he also write that it contained the Third Secret? If he did this really compromised it’s safety! This would have been after Pius XII died but before a new Pope was elected.
If they had not read the Third Secret, then all Cardinals Ratzinger, Sodano and Bertone had to say at the press conference in 2000 was that they hadn’t seen it, it wasn’t really that important, had been over-hyped and had not been kept because it was really not that important. Instead, they issued a copy of part of the Secret pretending that was the whole thing.
Until you questioned it, I had never heard or read anything raising the issue. It seems to be very well established that all the popes have read it, and that it was kept in a safe in the papal office, or perhaps the papal bedroom – can’t remember which. I really don’t have the time to search it out right now but I think the journalist who wrote “The Fourth Secret” describes a conversation in which the location of the Third Secret is said to be that safe.
I think it’s one of those things that is “obvious” – if you see what I mean. We don’t always specify the obvious. So, until Pope Francis chose to live elsewhere, nobody would have thought of saying “how do we know the pope is living in the papal apartment in the Vatican?”
If the main players had not seen the Third Secret, for whatever reason, there’s their ready-made, concrete, excuse for not publishing it.
In my humbug opinion 🙂
I think they probably read it and have it. I’m just saying that there’s a possibility that they don’t have the paper itself. Cardinal Bertone came in rather late. (Cardinal Villot was even Camerlengo twice.) Who had the key to the safe anyway? As a matter of fact why would Pope Paul VI want to keep it in the papal apartments? He liked to be reminded everyday?
Unless God prevented anyone from taking it or whatever I would think that would be their first move. If it went missing the players still had the vision to read and would have said that they read the third secret. Various persons read Our Lady’s words during Pope John XXIII’s pontificate, that’s a given. But did Pope John Paul have that paper to read? I don’t know. All that’s for sure is that he had the vision. Now all the old Cardinals who spoke about having read the secret really could only be talking about Our Lady’s spoken words which were about apostasy, so they said. Fr. Malachi Martin complicates things although he’s very intriguing. According to his friends he said the apostasy forms the background for the Secret. That sounds kind of odd.
On the subject of not being given the whole truth, could the Church have had a point in the Galileo controversy?
Essential to the modern world view is the Sun-centered (Heliocentric) solar system in which the Earth and other planets revolve around a stationary Sun. To explain why planets have night and day, modern astronomers say that the planets also rotate, as in the case of the Earth, once every 24 hours on its axis.
According to the video below it is possible to demonstrate, using inter-continental flight times, that the the Earth cannot possibly be rotating on its axis. Not once every 24 hours. Not at all. If the Earth does not rotate, a substantial hole is knocked out of the Sun-centered solar system theory, in favour of the Traditional, Earth-centered (Geocentric) solar system once held by the Church.
The video is a bit fast-paced, for me, but here’s my take on it.
If the Earth rotates once on its axis every 24 hours, because it’s circumference at the equator is 25,000 miles, it must be rotating at a speed of 1070 miles per hour. And because the east gets the sun first, the Earth must be rotating from west to east.
Flight times between London and New York average 7.5 hours each way, depending on headwinds. The same in both directions. But this is impossible if the Earth is rotating.
According to modern theory, a plane travelling at 550 miles per hour westwards towards New York is flying over a rotating Earth that is bringing New York closer to the plane at a speed of 1070 miles per hour. Therefore the planes actual speed is 550+1070 mph = 1620 mph. Which means that the plane should cover the 3,460 miles between London and New York in around 2 hours, not 7.5.
What’s even more startling is that a plane trying to fly across the Atlantic from New York to London would never get there. The plane would only be travelling eastwards at 550 mph. How would it catch up with London that is being rotated eastwards by the Earth at a speed of 1070 mph? To get to London from New York, the plane would have to fly east, not west.
Might the Church have been right, and Galileo wrong?
If the earth doesn’t rotate, where does gravity come from?
Gravity, as I understand it, does not depend on the Earth’s rotation. Instead it is explained as the ‘pull’ that large bodies in space exert over smaller bodies.
I’m with St Augustine when he said: “We do not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: I send you the Paraclete to teach you how the sun and the moon go. He wished to make Christians, not mathematicians.”
In support of heliocentrism, I’d guess that observing planetary movements with a telescope shows that moons orbit their planets and that the other planets orbit the sun, rather than all planetary bodies orbiting the earth, as the geocentrists claim. The space programme is predicated on heliocentrism and it works….which it wouldn’t do if the planets and the sun orbited Earth.
There was an amusing letter sent to The Remnant by Griff Ruby on the subject:-
Editor, The Remnant:
I am astonished, horrified, and utterly shocked that valuable column space on the pages of the Remnant has been squandered on debating questions which have so long been utterly settled that asking them again (let alone pronouncing nonsense in sheer perverse defiance of the verifiable facts) is gravely irrational, to say the best, and positively scandalous (as in the sin of scandal) at the worst.
It is certainly a good and reparational thing that some couple of more sensible voices have also been allowed to weigh in on this (Mario Derksen, Adam Kolasinski), But the initial publishing of Hertz’s original article which started this (and that, without at least some editorial distance!) was uncalled for and unnecessary, to say nothing of being gravely embarrasing to the whole traditionalist cause.
(I can’t believe I am even having to debate this, but…) I have worked for over 16 years on the computer systems (radar, telemetry) which are used in tracking the missiles we fire out of Vandenberg Air Force Base here in California. Allow me to introduce you to a number which has significant relevance on many of the calculations that run on the missiles, and on those tracking computers, and therefore is used in the software running on them: 7.292115147X10-5
What is this number? It is the rotation rate of the earth in radians per second. (For the ease of those who don’t know, multiply that by 180 and divide by 3.1416… to get it in degrees per second, which is about 4.178074X10-3, and which in turn amounts to 360.9856 degrees per day (multiply the 4.178074X10-3 by 86400 seconds in a day).
For one thing, notice that the rate is non-zero If we use zero instead of that number and attempt to compute the course of the rocket, the range might be obligated to destroy a missile which is perfectly on course, or even worse, might fail to detect that a missile which is off course and on its way to landing on someone, so as to destroy it when necessary. Even a very small error could threaten people’s lives.
For another thing, notice the remaining “.9856” degrees. It is just slightly less than one degree in excess of a complete circle. That excess represents the motion of the earth around the sun in a single day, such that the earth must turn that amount more than a circle in order to reach the same exact time of day.
Divide the 360 degrees of a circle by the 365.2425 days in a true solar year (calendar years handle the “.2425” by inserting a “February 29” every fourth year, except three out of four century years), and that gets our “.9856” degrees. Voila!
Continued at http://www.the-pope.com/remlet.html
Don K White,
“The space programme is predicated on heliocentrism and it works….which it wouldn’t do if the planets and the sun orbited Earth.”
False. See the diagram in this video at 28:58 (the whole video is worth watching, and Dr Robert Sungenis is a Traditional Catholic).
We have been profoundly conditioned to take the the Copernican system for granted. Even after I had come to accept the so called “young earth creationist” position, I was aware there were Catholic geocentrists, like Sungenis and Salza, and I thought it was ludicrous. Insane even.
When I actually looked into the matter I was shocked. I thought for a moment, in fact a long moment, that I was going insane, but actually science proves it. Think about the implications if it were proven that the Earth were the centre of the universe. It would be turn our society on its head. Here is a good video:
And here’s a commentary of the film trailer I link above:
You seem to want to close down this discussion altogether. Your quote from Augustine, (reference?) flies in the face of all the claims by the Church for her contribution to the sciences over the centuries.
You ‘guess’ that observations from telescopes can verify that the planets, including the Earth orbit the Sun. Can these movements actually be verified using telescopes? You do not answer this question.
And there’s nothing like ‘blinding with science’ in order to silence opponents. Your figures are very interesting, but don’t address the point I am making, which is this in a nutshell.
The Earth revolves from west to east at a speed of 1070 miles per hour.
Passenger aircraft fly at speeds of around 550 miles per hour.
Therefore, an aircraft flying west to east from New York to London would have a hard time arriving.
Because the Earth, as it revolves, would always be taking London further away from the aircraft at a speed that is greater than that at which the aircraft is flying.
If you can address this question in its own terms, I would be very grateful. Please refute it if you can.
As St Augustine made the comment at the time of the Gallileo controversy, I’m not sure what objections you have to it.
The heliocentric/geocentric debate was settled a long time ago, and the Church has accepted heliocentrism for several centuries now, as has 99.99% of the world’s population.
The present tendency for trads to loudly proclaim various conspiracy/revisionist theories as de fide has nothing to do with our practise of the Catholic faith and serves only to make traditional Catholics look like nutters.
Still more when said trads have neither the education nor the ability to debate/discuss without personalising the subjects at hand, in my humble opinion.
Don K White,
It’s a pity all of this stuff about science is not on the Global Warming thread: just like the thing – I think Awkward Customer’s question on here was posted before the sunbathing polar bear thread 🙂 but, what the heck.
As I said on the Global Warming thread, there’s not a postage stamp in the world small enough to contain the totality of my knowledge about science, and since I’m not free to catch up on background reading right now, I can’t really comment on this subject either except to say that I did have a good old laugh at the Awkward Customer’s assertion that, “…Therefore, an aircraft flying west to east from New York to London would have a hard time arriving.”
I do agree with your final sentence about the importance of cultivating an ability to discuss without making personal remarks, although I’d prefer us not to be described as “trads” if you don’t mind. Most of the people – in my experience – who describe themselves as “traditionalists” are nothing more than traditional Mass-attending Catholics. Since all Catholics MUST accept the entirety of traditional Catholicism, it stands to reason that those who do not are dissenting Catholics at some level, so it is that which needs to be highlighted (and the consequences of such dissent – something we had hoped to explore on Leprechaun’s aborted thread) not the “traditional” Catholics. It cuts out the danger of developing a superiority complex, once known as spiritual pride, if we avoid giving ourselves titles, in my humble opinion.
Love your avatar. One of my all time favourite bloggers (now ex-blogger) had the same avatar. I think of her from time to time, always with affection and regret at our parting of the ways – she thought I was too tolerant of a pesky atheist at one point – so thanks for choosing that avatar. Brings back lots of fond memories. 🙂
Was that not the blogger spiritotempore or something like that? Yes, he was very good and I did wonder at his disappearance.
Yes, that’s right. Unfortunately, there was some bad feeling at the end due to my (admitted) laxity with an atheist who was determined to remain an atheist.
Anyway, water under the bridge. Let sleeping dogs lie. Whatever. Don is very welcome and is giving Awkward Customer a run for her money who is giving Don a run for his/her money as well !
On that topic – do you have a clue about how the earth works? In other words, how on EARTH does the earth work? 🙂
I have never posted this question before since, as I stated in my first post, I have only just heard it asked. Perhaps you were joking. Sometimes I can’t tell.
This question matters. It is of crucial importance in fact, because the modern world view depends upon it. The traditional, Earth-centered (Geocentric) solar system describes the Sun, the Moon and the planets revolving around a stationary Earth. Not only is a stationary Earth the version recorded in scripture, but it suggests that the Earth, being the significant central point of a spherical solar system was put there by design, ie, God.
But according to the modern, Sun-centered (Heliocentric) model, the Earth is just another planet revolving around just another Sun in a universe which is the result of materialistic, evolutionary forces, a universe without God.
In order to explain the seasons, the moderns claim that the Earth revolves around the Sun and takes a full year to make journey. In order to explain day and night. they claim that the Earth rotates on its axis once every 24 hours.
If the Earth’s rotation is undermined, and the international flight times question does this, then the whole modern model falls apart.
I said you probably posted your question “before I posted the Global Warming thread” – NOT “before” as in previously.
I only meant that it would have been good to have had all the science stuff in one thread, as the General Discussion thread gets filled up so quickly.
And yes, you are right – it is an important question. I know that others raise the same question. I’m not knowledgeable enough about the subject to challenge the received wisdom but what you are saying makes a lot of sense.
Oh…okay. Sorry. I misunderstood. I actually did see the Global Warming thread and wondered about posting the question there. I also thought about emailing you to ask if you would create a thread on this topic.
If I could find the quote by Edward(?) Hubble in which he claimed that the mathematics of the geocentric solar system are as valid as the mathematics for the heliocentric solar system, but that the philosophical implications of the geocentric are unacceptable, would you consider this. That’s not a bribe, more an incentive.
True. The Maths and the findings of contemporary Physics and Cosmology are not opposed to geocentrism per se. It is rejected because nearly everybody presupposes heliocentrism. However, if Sacred Scripture presupposes geocentrism which St Robert Bellarmine believed (indeed there are about 24 passages which support this) then this is the position we should be at least open to accepting.
Yes, of course – anyone who wants me to post a particular topic, is welcome to email it to me on email@example.com
I prefer if those doing so would write a paragraph or something (not too long – I’m told by those in the know that blog articles are supposed to be short (to avoid leaving nothing to discuss!) and send me perhaps one link but no more, unless really necessary. Remember, additional links can be added in the comments section later. Ideally, I’d like to just copy, paste and publish it. Well I never denied being a lazy so & so…
Always, bloggers should make clear their angle and really spell out the purpose of the thread, so that we don’t have critics coming on to say this or that isn’t suitable for a Catholic blog. Education in the Faith is about seeing and understanding the world as a Catholic so a numpty like me who knows zilch about science, would love to know the key (hopefully none too scientifically technical) arguments for and against any controversial theory, and, most especially, it’s relationship to Scripture. The Church doesn’t “teach” about science, of course, but it is useful to know if there are any serious theological/scriptural reasons why a particular scientific theory might appear to contradict Catholic doctrine etc.
All of that said – feel free to email your material.
Catholic Convert is also submitting an article but there’s no reason why both can’t be posted. I’ve often posted more than one thread at a time.
Michael Voris has an interview on this very subject, just out, based on a documentary soon to be released, so I think I’ll post it as the lead in a new thread (has to be a bit later) and you can take it from there. You’re still welcome to email me anything but if I don’t hear from you by the time I’m ready to get to work, I’ll just post Voris’s interview.
There’s no room to reply to your post below re Michael Voris and his interview on the forthcoming documentary. Assuming that this is the Dr Robert Sungenis film ‘The Principle’ – see link above by Miles Immaculate – then I would suggest opening a thread on this important event and letting the discussion take off from there.
About to post the Michael Voris discussion on The Principle – stand by.
There are a large number of excellent arguments for geocentricism, but the aeroplane flight isn’t one of them. If the earth rotates on an axis then clouds, the atmosphere aeroplanes etc. move with the earth because of gravity!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m sure I read that argument posted somewhere. Are you saying that the Earth’s gravity pulls airplanes, clouds, flocks of birds eastwards with it as it turns. Does that mean that a flock of birds flying west has to work against this gravitational pull, but can work with it flying east? And are they being pulled east as they fly north and south?
What am I missing?
The earth rotating eastwards does not give anything on earth relative propulsion. The earth and every other mass on earth move eastwards at the same velocity. Therefore, relatively speaking, it is as if the earth wasn’t moving eastwards at all. Everything is cancelled out. So if a helicopter hovered in a fixed position in the sky, after 12 hours it would not find itself on the other side of the earth. Assuming the wind had not blown it of course, the helicopter would be above the same exact spot on the ground, i.e. the earth does not move beneath it. Similarly, considering that in the heliocentric model the equator is moving at 1700 km/h, if the atmosphere din’t rotate eastwards as well, then there would be 1700 km/h winds!
I am sure you did read it somewhere, but it’s mistaken.
Fair enough. I understand what you’re saying, in principle at least, but can’t quite grasp it.
The Earth’s atmosphere, and airplanes flying through it, are not physically attached to the Earth, but are being pulled by the Earth as it rotates. That’s according to the heliocentric model. This must mean that there is a gravitational force acting on them which they would have to resist in order to move against the Earth’s rotation.
Maybe I need to think about this some more. Meanwhile, Editor is planning to open a thread on the Michael Voris interview about – I assume – the Dr Robert Sungenis documentary ‘The Principle’.
Should be fun. And thank you for taking the trouble to explain this, even if I am being a bit thick about it.
“The Earth’s atmosphere, and airplanes flying through it, are not physically attached to the Earth, but are being pulled by the Earth as it rotates. That’s according to the heliocentric model. This must mean that there is a gravitational force acting on them which they would have to resist in order to move against the Earth’s rotation.”
No, Not quite.
The gravitational pull is towards the centre of the earth, not eastwards.
Don K White
“St Augustine made the comment at the time of the Galileo controversy.” you say.
Goodness me. Which St Augustine are you referring to? Must be someone I haven’t heard of, since both St Augustine of Hippo and St Augustine of Canterbury died long before Galileo was born.
But back to the question I originally asked regarding the puzzle over international flight times and how an aircraft travelling east at 550 miles per hour could ever catch up with a city being carried east at 1070 miles per hour by a rotating Earth.
This is a question you still haven’t answered.
Instead you have made digs at ‘Trads’.
Is this because you can’t answer the question?
Don K. White probably meant, ” As St. Robert Bellarmine said at the time, quoting St. Augustine…..” hehe 🙂
You’re probably right.
One day I’ll find out how to use those smiley-things.
Took me ages to learn to make the smiley faces and it’s so easy: With your finger on the shift key, you type a colon : then take finger off the shift key and type the dash – Then press shift key again and type the right hand parenthesis ) (which is above the 0 – not the other one)
I’ve done it!!!
WordPress does it automatically when you type a colon and parentheses for a smile or frown. Don’t tell anyone though or everyone will be doing it!
This is my favorite one 💡 but I seldom have reason to use it.
If you would like to use the light bulb when you have a brilliant thought you just type a colon then the word idea then another colon. Like : idea : but no spaces. I like it.
Try these other wordpress smileys, but no spaces between colons and words.
: roll : is 🙄
: shock : is 😯
: wink : is 😉
: cry : is 😥
: arrow : is ➡
: oops : is 😳
: lol : is 😆
: grin : is 😀
😀 (editor testing!)
Brilliant – it works! Thanks, 3LittleShepherds!
I realise I’ve missed the boat completely on the “’Mainstream’ Catholics” thread, but I feel obliged to offer my thanks here, late as it is, to both Leprechaun and Editor. I agree with both of you absolutely, 100% on the need for such a discussion. I also understand completely, Editor, why you decided to close the thread early.
I’ve only been able to skim the blog over the last few evenings, and am amongst those guilty of not making any contributions. In fact, when I first saw the thread, I was fully expecting to see a lot of worthwhile contributions. Surely the subject is right at the heart of the issues that come up repeatedly on this blog.
I have to say, Leprechaun, that your comments at the top of the thread were absolutely on the mark, a really excellent, concise summation of the devastating crisis that has endangered countless millions of souls over three generations. The examples of Modernist Mind Rot leading souls astray are almost limitless. I can very safely say that there is barely a Catholic family in Ireland that has not been ravaged by the apostasy brought about by the open Revolution and inebriated madness of the last five decades. It’s surely the same elsewhere.
Anyway, I hope, Leprechaun I that the point you were making stimulates peoples’ brains a bit, and is taken up again many times in future discussions. It certainly deserves to be. Thank you, again.
I noticed, Editor, that you were credited with at least two supporters on the thread. Well, better increase that number by another one. I wouldn’t blame you if the thought “I wonder why I bother” occasionally crossed your mind. All I’ll say is that, if it does, forget it immediately. Many of us here and elsewhere have reason to be very grateful indeed for all your steadfast, good humoured and highly informative work on this blog, as well as the Newsletter. It’s a pity that gratitude isn’t expressed a bit more often. God bless your fortitude.
As for the subject of ignorance and the very real danger it poses to souls, I think, Leprechaun and Editor, that the following words vindicate the point you were trying to get across far, far better than anything I can say. I think, in fact, that they completely close down any grounds for disagreement on the matter.
I’ll leave everyone with the words of Pope Saint Pius X. Yet one more example of that magnificent pastor’s prescient, prophetic, and ever relevant magisterium. They are taken from the first few paragraphs his short 1905 encyclical,Acerbo nimis. It was a bit of problem, in fact, trying to decide what not to quote from these paragraphs here. And let’s remember, the issue that was under discussion on the thread: ignorance. Does anybody care to argue that these words should not be given very grave consideration in every episcopal office throughout the world, starting with Saint Peter’s itself? Does anybody care to contend that they offer very clear teaching on the subject offered for discussion on this blog? Does anybody consider these words “dangerous”?
“But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine..”
“It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. … We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there… Grace, the greatest of the helps for attaining eternal things, the Holy Sacrifice and the Sacraments by which we obtain grace, are entirely unknown to them. .. And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.”
“. … We do maintain that the will cannot be upright nor the conduct good when the mind is shrouded in the darkness of crass ignorance. A man who walks with open eyes may, indeed, turn aside from the right path, but a blind man is in much more imminent danger of wandering away. Furthermore, there is always some hope for a reform of perverse conduct so long as the light of faith is not entirely extinguished; but if lack of faith is added to depraved morality because of ignorance, the evil hardly admits of remedy, and the road to ruin lies open.”
“How many and how grave are the consequences of ignorance in matters of religion! And on the other hand, how necessary and how beneficial is religious instruction! It is indeed vain to expect a fulfillment of the duties of a Christian by one who does not even know them.”
“We must now consider upon whom rests the obligation to dissipate this most pernicious ignorance and to impart in its stead the knowledge that is wholly indispensable. There can be no doubt, Venerable Brethren, that this most important duty rests upon all who are pastors of souls. … the first duty of all those who are entrusted in any way with the government of the Church is to instruct the faithful in the things of God.”
Here’s the link to the encyclical:
I thought I saw a knight in shining armour riding in on a lovely big horse, as I opened up my computer this morning ! Thank you for rescuing this damsel in distress 🙂
I will post a note on the closed thread to redirect readers to your comment, as it is a fitting end to the (attempted) discussion of Leprechaun’s article.
Thank you very much indeed for your thoughtful comment – I’m really pleased that you “got it” right away – as the highly pertinent quote from Pope Pius X confirms.
I can’t even believe they’re getting on the blog yelling danger and schism.
Me, too. I wish people wouldn’t spoil things like that. Why they can’t make points about the topic or just say nothing, I can’t understand.
I repeat once again:
November 2, 2013 at 3:42 pm
Let us be clear!
For more than half a century, the Church Authorities have acted without regard for the sensibility of the faithful who were rightly scandalized and mostly deserted churches, whilst the others most assiduous were precipitated into schism… Now, such authorities are undoubtedly responsible for this situation and will have to be accountable.
It is sad to see, but after such conduct, the credibility of the Magisterium has been durably undermined and this could lead us to doubt the reliability and even the existence of papal infallibility… It would be very serious, possibly even worse than the antics and tribulations of the past!…
How can we trust personages who have deceived us for so long?
You might have heard the one when in days of old, and knights were bold, the Queen turned to her knight and said: ‘What have you been doing today?’ The knight said: ‘I have been robbing and pillaging on your behalf, burning the villages of your enemies in the north.’
The Queen said: ‘But I don’t have any enemies in the north.’ The knight said: ‘I’m afraid you do now.’
You never disappoint ! I agree with every single word and what a quote from Saint Pius X. Thank you from you biggest fan !
You’re way, way too kind. Can’t go wrong with a bit of cutting and pasting, given magnificent material.
Anyway, Catholic Truth is a great little army to be part of, and always will be.
Please could you identify the following hymn from the march led by Fr. Regis de Cacqueray against homosexual marriage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjXRtlEojc
Thank you in advance.
This is a very old French Royal hymn
In front of the National Assembly (l’Assemblée Nationale) on the 3rd February 2013
If they obtain satisfaction they would build a chapel
Mère de l’Espérance,
Dont le nom est si doux,
Protégez notre France,
Priez, priez pour nous,
Protégez notre France,
Priez, priez pour nous.
1 – Souvenez-vous Marie
Qu’un de nos souverains
Remit notre patrie
En vos augustes mains.
2 – La France toute entière
A redit ses serments,
Vous êtes notre Mère,
Nous sommes vos enfants.
3 – Au chemin de la gloire
Conduisez nos soldats ;
Donnez-leur la victoire
Au jour des saints combats.
4 – Gardez la foi chrétienne
Dans l’âme de l’enfant,
Pour que Jésus devienne
Le Roi du peuple franc.
Mother of Hope,
Whose name is so sweet,
Protect our France,
Pray, pray for us
Protect our France,
Pray, pray for us.
1 – Remember Mary
One of our sovereign (Clovis)
Gave our country
In your august hands.
2 – The whole of France
Repeated his oaths,
You are our Mother,
We are your children.
3 – In the path of glory
Drive our soldiers;
Give them victory
At the day of saint struggles.
4 – Keep the Christians in faith
In the soul of the child,
So that Jesus becomes
The King of the Frankish people.
Contributors may be interested in the following which a friend e-mailed me today – more “humility from the Pope” exploded.
Those facts were published at the time of his election (that the papal apartment is actually quite austere and not as comfortable as the place the Pope has chosen instead) although not emphasised, so I agree it’s about “humility” in inverted commas.
I thought bloggers might want to sigh this important petition
Meet the new schismatics on the block, and the they’re not from Menzingen:
My Avatar is back! Finally, I’m a real person. Are you pleased Editor?
I’m delighted! Welcome back Miles’s Avatar!
I wondered why your avatar has not appeared on all your comments, so I checked one of them and it’s because you used a different email address. All you need to do now is go into your dashboard using the previous email address and click on “change my avatar” under the mystery man avatar which is still there. Then go through the same process, downloading your picture and all your comments will have your avatar restored. 🙄
PS I’ve just tested one of the faces provided by 3LittleShepherds, who gave instructions above, to get the rolling eyes face; just type the colon: then the word roll and then the colon : again (with no spaces in between) … voila! it worked. 🙄 Thanks 3LittleShepherds!
Concerning what the Authorities call “schism and heresy”:
Mary, Mother of the Church in faith and culture
Mariology of the last three popes, by P. Perrella (ZENIT.org )
Paris, 12th September 2012 18:28
Before She is Mother of the Church, the Blessed Virgin Mary is Queen of Heaven and of earth as the Mother of God.
This is a topic about which Vatican II should be muted!…
Many Saints of the past would not have been canonized after Vatican II…
But in fact, if the Church would have been misguided for nearly two thousand years, I wonder on what basis she would be more in the right today than yesterday or tomorrow?… If that were so, she would lose all credibility…
I must provide an explanation:
I did not unsubscribed because of dissatisfaction, but only because I do not have time to read all.
Union de prière LD
I don’t understand – not sure I ever suggested you’d “unsubscribed” from anything!
Here’s the latest example of the double-speak we’ve come to expect from the Scottish Catholic Education Service. Michael McGrath objecting to “sex guidelines” on the one hand, while allowing NHS Lanarkshire to give “information sessions” in Catholic schools in the area following an outbreak of syphilis – information sessions which explicitly include information on “safer sex”. Still, he’s mysteriously managed to get them to agree sessions that will be “in harmony” with Catholic teaching. Er… how does one make the “safer sex” message harmonise with “no sex outside marriage”?
If you recall, we ran a thread on the scandal of the information sessions in Catholic schools way back in November. There will also be a brief report on the subject in our February edition.
Indeed, I did not “unsubscribed” as a reader of your very pertinent observations and those of other readers (except Chasdom); I meant that I just interrupt the reading of mails as I receive too many of them from a lot of correspondents and I have to spend the night on my computer… In fact, I am saturated with messages.
However, I consult your site with an increasing interest. Otherwise, you can still send me messages as many as you would like and I thank you deeply for this kind intention.
I am ashamed to confess that as I am being treated for an advanced cancer, my strength declines gradually; “je m’étiole”…
Union de prière LD
What a lovely comment – very complimentary to our blog. Thank you for that. We get more criticism than compliments as a rule, so your charity is greatly appreciated.
I am, however, very sad indeed to read about your advanced cancer. Be assured of my prayers, for what they are worth. I wonder if you’ve made a pilgrimage to Lourdes, since your diagnosis? I’ve been three times (and still not cured!) but only once – the last time – gone into the baths and what a profound experience. If you haven’t experienced the Lourdes baths, I strongly recommend that you do, if at all possible.
I’m going to make an extended “novena” for you – from now until the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes on 11th February.
You are a wonderful example to us all – to think you are inundated with emails and no doubt busy with plenty of other things, yet you make time to read and contribute to this humble blog, and to encourage us.
I hope you will be able to keep us informed of your (hopefully) progress back to good health – but, in the meantime, we’ll pray to both Our Lady of Lourdes and St Joseph for your spiritual (as well as temporal) well being.
God bless you, Lionel.
Thank you very much indeed for your kind reply and intentions!
In fact, I am not keen on providing information on my health. I did it out of necessity only to justify my explanation. I deal the best I can and keep the moral…
On the other hand, I am not able to make such a long journey to Lourdes. However, I am convinced that the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph can get my recovery. Many people are in the same situation.
Yours sincerely LD
Lionel, a candle was lit for you today at the shrine of the Venerable Margaret Sinclair in Edinburgh. God bless.
Your delicate intention touched me deeply and I sincerely thank you.
I also pray for you all that the Virgin Mary Immaculate and Saint Joseph protect you from your enemies and keep you in good condition and accompany you and support you on the hard road to Heaven…
laudetur Jesus Christus! LD
I’m truly sorry to hear that you are ill. I will remember you in my prayers, so that God will bless you on your journey to recovery. Offer up your sufferings to the Cross.
Our Lady of Lourdes, health of the sick and St Charles of Mount Argus pray for us.
Thank you very much indeed for your kind reply and intentions!…
All the best LD
Aren’t I the proverbial technotronic 😀
There’s also some others:
: evil : is 👿
: mad : is 😡
: cool : is 😎
: ! : is ❗
: ? is 😕
: ? : is ❓
Have you all seen the BBC news reports on the fact that Pope Benedict XVI defrocked 400 Priests for child abuse in 2 years? Isn’t it interesting? When a Priest touches a kid up, it’s on the 6 o’clock news, but when a Pope punishes them, it’s only in deepest darkest teletext, where nobody will see it. The secular scum should be eating humble pie and choking on it.
Yet again this sorry affair exposes the inherent anti-Catholic bias in the media. As Peter Viereck said, ‘anti-Catholicism is the anti-Semitism of the Liberal classes’.
Some hopeful news concerning the Medjugorje phenomena, from a source that is contra-Medjugorje. Essentially, the International Commission has completed its investigation and is ready to submit its findings to the CDF.
I wonder how long the CDF will take to examine it, and for the Pope to rule on it? The papal post-commission judgement (the highest possible and most definitive yet) is overdue by 13 months.
I’ll see it when I believe it, but I’m impatient. I am thirsting for vindication. In my short time as a Catholic, I have come to learn a lot about the phenomena, and its creepy vaudevillian cast of crooks and crackpots.
Thank you for that information on MuddyGorge, as Leprechaun calls it. Let’s hope and pray the end is nigh for that particular diabolical enterprise.
Louie Verrecchio wrote this on his blog today. I think it’s a real gem.
“A priest vilifying the SSPX today is like a comedian cursing before a teenaged audience; it’s not exactly thought provoking stuff, but hey, it does guarantee a standing ovation from the under-nourished choir.”
That’s a real gem all right. A priceless gem 🙂
For those who understand French, please, take 20 minutes and listen to this! you will not be disappointed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I1OhNvJ4vY
…and this, unbelievable!
I saw that report about the birds on BBC News – someone sent me this link
Crofterlady speaks fluent French but has internet problems right now. She’ll be interested to view your link when she gets back online.
If she can listen to the algerian statement, she will certainly appreciate…
Thank you very much, Madame, and good night! LD
Fr John Hunwicke has posted an interesting two-part article about the SSPX:
Part 1: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sspx-is-it-ecumenism-or-is-it-not-1.html
Part 2: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sspx-is-it-ecumenism-or-is-it-not-2.html
I was interested to read Fr Hunwickes thoughts on this. As he is a former Anglican, now a Catholic priest incardinated into the Anglican Ordinariate created by Benedict XVI, he offers a point of view from an untypical source. He seems to be favourable towards the SSPX, referring to ++Lefebvres decision to consecrate Bishops as “wise”.
He speculates that Francis would have an easier time of regularising the Society, than Benedict would have experienced. He regards the SSPX as an urgent situation for the Church to resolve. He makes several good points, highlighting inconsistency and hypocrisy in how the Vatican deals with the SSPX.
In Part 2, he compares Vatican-Orthodox dialogue, with Vatican-SSPX dialogue:
“The modern Catholic Ecumenical Industry does not shout at Orthodoxy “You must accept every word in the Decrees of Florence, and the entire post-Florentine papal Magisterium”.
Many thanks for posting those links which I shall make a point of reading just as soon as I’m clear of the pesky February newsletter due at the printers tomorrow (actually due days ago, but what the heck!)
Your concluding sentence is absolutely on the button. Nobody else has the hoops to jump through that the Vatican present to the SSPX. And that against the backdrop of perpetual talk about “justice and peace”. Gimme strength!
I look forward to receiving the February Edition of the newsletter!
I’d be very interested to hear what you – being much more informed than I am – thought of Fr Hunwicke’s views. He does seem favourable towards the SSPX.
Further to those articles, he also posted a 2 part article on “(Crypto)Lefebvrianism”.
“If it is possible to accuse people of ‘Cryptolefebvrianism’ … and one does come across such accusations … then clearly there must be a ‘Lefebvrianism’ of which the deceitful ‘Cryptolefebvrians’ are the secret and underhand Fifth Column. I am having some trouble understanding what the ‘Lefebvrianism’, the existence of which is implied by some rhetoric, actually might be.
H.E. Archbishop Lefebvre would, of course, have rebutted vigorously any suggestion that he was or could be the exponent of any other -ism than Catholicism or Traditionalism”
“ If there is such a thing as Lefebvrianism, it cannot rationally be categorised as a call to schism”
From part 2:
“Summorum pontificum confirmed juridically that the Latin Church had lived for some four decades under the dominion of a lie. The Vetus Ordo had not been lawfully prohibited. Much persecution of devout priests and layfolk that took place during those decades is therefore now seen to have been vis sine lege.”
Part 1: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/cryptolefebvrianism-1.html
Part 2: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/lefebvrianism-2.html
Your two publications are most interesting.
Thank you very much indeed! LD
Did anyone hear the talk show “Morning call” on BBC Radio Scotland this morning?
I (as usual) only heard the start, as it begins just as I arrive at work. I will listen to it later – you can re-play it via the BBC Radio Scotland website.
Amazingly, one of the stories/discussions today was that the Church of Scotland was joining forces with the Scottish Humanist Society to put forward a proposal to Holyrood that “religious observance” in non-denom schools be replaced with “time of reflection”.
They had a (strangely, American) woman on to talk for the Church of Scotland. She insisted that this pro-secular change had been a chief objective for the Church of Scotland since 2005, (when the previous changes to religion in non-denom schools were made). She was adamant that this was a “positive move”.
So there you have it – the Church of Scotland are lemmings, ever eager to speed up their soon-enough demise. Of course, in another 10 years or so, this discussion will come around again, but this time their Humanist “allies” (ha!) will opine that “religion” has no place at all in their “time for reflection”. A fool could see it.
I wonder what “time for reflection” will amount to? Certainly it will have no moral foundation, likely it will just be a vehicle for propaganda, pushing the secular fads of the day.
The protestants never fail to baffle me. Time and again, they acquiesce to secular morality or demands, under the delusion that this will somehow propel them into the bounds of relevance, or boost their popularity. Instead, each surrender is simply another nail in the coffin. Female clergy, divorce, contraception, sex outside marriage, abortion, homosexuality…….they fail to speak against anything. Comparing their actual lifestyles and values with the claim they prioritise scripture is laughable. Zero credibility.
But this was a new low for them – to join forces with people who are the enemies of religion. The majority (if not all) secular groups are largely just a front for homosexual campaigners (look into the private lives of the leaders of the BHA, NSS etc).
Michael McGrath of the Catholic Education Service, a BBC Radio Scotland veteran, was wheeled out too – as this doesn’t affect Catholic schools, I don’t know why he was invited on, other than to provide a target for abuse.
I did however appreciate his early dig that the Catholic Church would not follow the Church of Scotland’s example and “take God out of the equation”.
One wonders if these idiotic Church of Scotland antics might provoke any reconsideration of ecumenism among the Bishops. Or will they continue with the pantomime of joint services with the Church of Scotland, while the Church of Scotland – at the same time – works with secularists for the removal of religious influence from area of Scottish society.
I presume you refer to “Call Kaye” the Radio Scotland morning talk show where people ring in to Kaye Adams for discussion on the various topics. Didn’t hear it, but I’m not surprised at anything in your post, except this:
“Michael McGrath of the Catholic Education Service, a BBC Radio Scotland veteran, was wheeled out too – as this doesn’t affect Catholic schools, I don’t know why he was invited on, other than to provide a target for abuse.
I did however appreciate his early dig that the Catholic Church would not follow the Church of Scotland’s example and “take God out of the equation”.”
Michael McGrath is only too ready to “take God out of the equation” when it suits him, as you’ll see when you receive the February newsletter. the Scottish Catholic (?) Education Service went right along with the NHS Lanarkshire “safer sex” information sessions in Catholic schools recently – we ran a thread on it – arguing that they had reached an agreement with the NHS to provide sessions “in harmony” with Catholic teaching. The sheer nerve of it – what an insult to anyone of average intelligence. Doesn’t he think we won’t think to ourselves: “Just how do you make ‘use a condom’ harmonise with Catholic teaching?”
And in his very first article for the Scottish Catholic Observer, published right after he was appointed some years ago, McGrath was at pains to insist that Catholic schools were not about “imposing any particular faith tradition on pupils” – apparently blissfully unaware that some parents, at least, send their children to Catholic schools for the very purpose of having that particular “tradition” “imposed” on them. He went on to describe his “vision” of Catholic education (to provide some spiritual awareness for pupils) which is exactly the philosophy of religious education in non-denominational schools. He used the same language, the same jargon. And at that time he was the newly appointed Director of the Scottish Catholic Education Service. Truly, you couldn’t make it up.
For, who in this world speaks about “imposing” or “foisting” birthday or Christmas presents on their loved ones? Nobody. And nobody who believes in the divine establishment, authority and teachings of the Catholic Church would even think that they were “imposing” or “foisting” our beautiful Catholic faith on children in Catholic schools – or anyone else for that matter.
So, please be aware that Michael McGrath is in that top job precisely because he’s “on message” with the bishops. That he disagreed with the Church of Scotland on this, on a radio show, is welcome news but, nobody’s complained to the BBC yet, have they? In such an event, we’d be more than likely treated to profuse apologies along the very best of ecumenical lines.
In case nobody’s noticed, I’m not a Michael McGrath fan.
Yes that’s the show alright – but its now been renamed “Morning Call” and (I may be wrong) I thought that Kaye Adams was heading back to TV work (to re-appear on the hideous / crude / banal “loose women” show).
I look forward to reading about Michael McGrath and the CES in the February edition.
It is certainly concerning that he appears willing to quietly compromise with the NHS and such like. I will be interested to find out: was this a one off (?), what was discussed exactly (?) and were families given the option to withdraw their children (?).
Certainly, McGrath should be aware that the NHS is no friend of Catholicism – look at the recent outcry from the NHS and secular groups when a Catholic school hosted a pro-abstinence speaker.
The homosexual community were delighted with what the Catholic Times described at the time as the “gay lessons” in Scottish Catholic schools. As our American cousins say: “go figure”! And as I point out in the February edition, any “sex and relationships” programme which omits the word “Marriage” from its title is immediately suspect.
Interesting about the name change from Call Kaye to Morning Call. Suggests – as you say – that Kaye is heading back to TV. Perhaps they’re going to replace her with a selection of other hosts. I should let them know that I’m available for the same six figure sum I’m already getting as editor of Catholic Truth – £000,000 🙂
You know, I wish Petrus, Athanasius, and Spiritustempore would come back to write for this blog. I miss Spiritustempore’s intrigue, Athanasius’ bittersweet reflections on Our Lord’s love, and Petrus’ straightforward Catechism. Maybe you guys could just come back and act like you never left. And put the schism thing in your pocket for awhile. I mean don’t you think there’s a big possibility that you were helping souls and have been a victim of divide and conquer? Not cool to go along with it.
You will probably have noticed that post-apocalyptic film and literature is very popular at the moment. It is strange isn’t it, how most non-Christians in the West are on to something, a kind of post-apocalyptic anxiety has permeated the popular psyche (whereas most modernist Catholic prelates and career theologians are oblivious to the fact modern society is in great peril, New Springtime and all that). I am in to the Hunger Games trilogy, very much so, but one issue I have is that this fictional universe is that it is lacking any tangible expression of God or faith.
My question is this: are there any Catholic books which would fit into a distinctly Catholic post-apocyliptic genre? I am aware Fr Malachi Martin wrote fiction. Are you aware of any of his books which are overtly based on Fatima, prophecy and the Crisis in the Church and World? Which Fr Malachi Martin book do you recommend I read first? Do you know of any other writers?
I suggest you read Windswept House by Fr Malachi Martin – I’ve still not finished it myself, (it’s not famed for its brevity!) but it’s alleged to be something like 90% true, with fiction thrown in to keep him out of court !
We also recommended, some years ago, a little book which was really comical – trouble is I can’t remember the name of it! It was a kind of satire on the crisis as it affected a particular (typical) parish. I will try to remember its title and get back to you.
With regard to the Morning Call program, one thing I found depressing but not at all surprising was the call from a gentleman from West Lothian, who had been raised Catholic but is now an atheist. Sixteen years ago when deciding where his daughter should go to primary school, he visited the non denominational school, was not impressed, and went then to the Catholic Primary. Afraid there would be a particularly Catholic identity, he was assured that 25% of the pupils were not Catholic, that there would be no “prayers at assemblies” ….. surely that couldn’t be!
Anyway the outcome was that the man was assured that the Catholic school was not ostensibly Catholic so he chose that school for his child and all was well….. for him anyway. And all over Scotland people heard of his experience yesterday morning.
Everywhere people are apologising for being Catholic. What on earth has gone wrong?
Some years ago, in a Catholic school in England, one member of the RE staff, who was an out and out “liberal”, wore, on at least one occasion that I know of, a huge badge emblazoned “Ordain women or stop baptising them”: this, on the World Day of Prayer for Women (or whatever the daft name is for that particular annual dissent-fest). On Ash Wednesday she organised female pupils to distribute the ashes. And this happened in the presence of the Bishop. He’d already nailed his “liberal” colours to the mast at an academic Mass in which he tried to convince us all that St Therese of Lisieux believed in the ordination of women – which she absolutely did not. So, he wasn’t exactly going to go about the place objecting to a bunch of teenage girls in mini-skirts distributing ashes on Ash Wednesday. If they’d wanted to distribute Ashes on Christmas Day he’d have raised no objection. Clueless? Faithless? Your call.
When I took up post as Head of RE, and Open Evening rolled around, the chaplain – who, in conversations with me gave the impression that he’d been a fully blown consultant-theologian at the Council of Trent – told me the next day that when parents had asked him for reassurance that the school was totally orthodox etc. he said “of course – go and speak to our new Head of RE” but when other parents asked if Catholicism was going to be rammed down pupils’ throats or were we more enlightened, he told THEM: “of course, much more enlightened. Go and speak to Miss X” (the proponent of women’s ordination.)
So this sort of duplicity, deception, call it what you will, has, sadly and unconscionably, been going on in the Catholic sector for quite some time.
It’s all part of the diabolical disorientation. There is a spiritual blindness in priests like him (widely regarded as “orthodox” even by those who should have known better) which prevents them from seeing the damage they are doing, and which prevents them from realising that they are wrong-thinking, big time, and which keeps them from appreciating that they are very far from being Catholic. It’s called, in short, culpable ignorance.
Perhaps one might extrapolate from this that the diabolical disorientation has spread so rapidly by its extensive use of, and dependence on, lowness of character and absence of virtue, which invariably causes one to grovel before “human respect,” a trait which appears to be so predominant in the modern Church. And the neutering of liturgy, theology, doctrine, devotion, discipline, Sacraments, etc. in turn feeds this lack of virtue. It’s a vicious circle.
I think “vicious” is the operative word in your post of. 6.26pm.
So confused was that young priest that he told me about his shenanigans on Open Evening, obviously thinking it would either amuse me or that I would praise him for doing his best to bring pupils into the school from all “wings” of the Church – OR both. He wasn’t smiling when we parted company 🙄
Please help me. I have an enquiry regarding the foretold ‘Great Chastisement’…
Principally, I have Fatima in mind. I have been putting off asking this question, for fear of ridicule, or of being perceived as a mad, prophecy-chasing, doom-mongering type. But a couple of others among you have briefly intimated it. To be honest, there isn’t really anyone else I can ask apart from the crazy bunch who come on here. I’m frightened. I know traditional Catholics are the only people who would know about this kind of thing. I have watched many videos by the Fatima Centre/ Path to Peace conference, but they never suggest a precise date. But they very strongly suggest something.
During which approximate time period in the future should I expect to be prepared to evacuate my loved ones to a secure refuge? (We don’t have one yet, but my brother is in to ‘prepping’ as well, so we could sort something out) Sometime during 2017? If so, during 2017, which is the more likely anniversary on which a disaster event might occur, that of the Miracle of the Sun (13th October, 2017)?
To put it another way, when ought I have my emergency plan and provision on stand-by alert?
What should we prepare for? An exchange of thermonuclear weapons, i.e. nuclear explosions or EMP attacks? Invasion by a foreign power? Widespread civil unrest, energy or economic collapse? Chemical, biological or radiological attacks? (Sorry to unsettle any of you, I’m an alarmist, imaginative type.)
What signs should I look out for? Will the third secret be released shortly prior to the aforementioned event? Will there be luminous phenomena in the atmosphere, as happened before the outbreak of World War II, as prophesied by Our Lady of Fatima?
We aren’t preppers, except that we keep some family emergency stuff because it’s recommended in our area due to some natural disaster risks. I also think you just can’t pinpoint a date when there will be a chastisement.
I would get some blessed candles made of beeswax. There’s a lot of prophecies about that and I think they’re for real. If it’s part of your nature to worry about it, I’d just store some basics maybe for shortages and first aid, etc. but pray against having a survivalist mentality. If there’s a disaster a Catholic can take care of his family first of all but he should be ready to go out and take care of all those who need help. In various disasters throughout history the priests would round up the best men in the parish to go out and bury the dead after earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes and other disasters.
Those are very interesting questions you ask. I think you might be referring to the view that there might be a chastisement in 2017 which is the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions because Our Lord told Sr Lucia that if the popes continued to ignore his request for the consecration of Russia, they would suffer misfortune like the King of France who also ignored his request to have France consecrated to the Sacred Heart and he was executed 100 years to the day.
I, personally, think something will happen in 2017 but I don’t worry about it because we have to trust God.
If we keep going to Confession regularly and living the best Catholic life we can, we have nothing to worry about. I suppose it would do no harm to have some kind of material preparation too but as we don’t really know what kind of chastisement is to come, there’s not a lot we can do to prepare in that way.
I was thinking that the most powerful thing to do would be to have Masses offered for your family. If you have a Mass offered in reparation for their sins then it will be so much easier for them to accept the grace God gives to them. I would choose the Traditional Mass for the Glory that it gives to God and because of It’s power. You write on a paper the name of the person or family that you wish the Mass to be offered for and whether they are living or deceased and Catholic or non-Catholic.
I think that’s okay so long as you write non-Catholic on the paper, but Editor can correct this if I’m wrong. You can also write “For the intentions of ‘Miles'” and then living and Catholic. Put it in an envelope with a stipend and write Mass intention on the outside. You can hand it to the priest. I would only choose the Traditional Mass for it’s power and I’d always have it offered in reparation for sins and then for all graces, everything good spiritual and temporal, and for all the protection of the Immaculate Heart. And since the application of Our Lord’s merits are finite but powerful I would have Masses offered repeatedly.
I’ve never had a Mass offered for non-Catholics, so have not had to think about that. However, I think I would, naturally, so to speak, note on the envelope that this person is not a Catholic. I know we’re supposed to identify any non-Catholics as such on the November lists so I suppose it’s the same for having Masses offered.
I know we’re supposed to identify any non-Catholics as such on the November lists so I suppose it’s the same for having Masses offered.
I never knew that. Why so?
Someone said that during November when a few of us were talking about the lists and a third person asked if she could include non-Catholic relatives. I didn’t question it at the time, and presumed it must be so (since I don’t know everything, contrary to popular belief!)
Anyway, when I saw your question, I rang a priest friend to check it and he said “that’s something someone’s invented” so I have to say, as I’ve had to say in the February Newsletter: “mea maxima culpa” which – loosely translated – means “editor’s an idiot!”
Sorry for any confusion caused.
Thank for that. I can’ think if I have ever had Mass said for a non-catholic, probably I have, but I do remember my father saying that when a Celtic player was killed in 1931 or 1932, some fans tried to have Masses said for him and were told they couldn’t because he was not Catholic. I always thought it a bit odd but never investigated it further. It may be something of an urban myth, or maybe the falsehood has been around a long time.
It’s one of the spiritual works of mercy to pray for the dead, so I began to think about this following your original posting, and went Googling. I found this answer from a priest on EWTN, which I think is helpful.
I am surprised at your story of the deceased Celtic player, though: I’d have thought a Celtic player, deceased or not, would need all the prayers and Masses he could get – even in the 1930’s… 😀
I was taught to write Catholic or non-Catholic on the paper when I was having a Mass offered. I asked about it and was told that only a Catholic can have a public Mass and that a non-Catholic would not have their name read aloud. So that’s how I’ve always turned in a Mass intention.
I was wondering if that is accurate because it was a lay person who instructed me. Or maybe it is no longer a rule? It wouldn’t make sense in the Novus Ordo, I think.
When King George VI died there were public Requiem Masses for him (and for his predecessor) so I think it’s just a myth that has gown up about not saying Mass for non Catholics.
Thanks for that historical fact. I wonder who starts these myths?
That interests me Vianney. Given Her Majesty’s meeting with Pope Franciscus, I delved further and discovered that Edward VII met Leo XIII in 1903 and George V and Queen Mary met Pius XI in 1931. I’d love to see photographs (if possible) of these and the Queen’s meeting with Pius XII.
This discussion has been really interesting to me 3LS, as I was never taught how to ask to have a mass offered for someone.
But now I do – thanks to you!
What is a typical stipend, or does each Church advise its own typical amount?
Also, what are “mass cards”?
Sorry if they questions seem ridiculous, (as I am sure they do!), but this uncertainty is what happens when you are raised with the new mass and Catholicism is treated as a kind of vague, occasional hobby for people, as opposed to the truth.
Interesting, the only time I have ever heard a clergyman refer to mass stipends and offering the mass for an intention, was when Fr Clifton at St Andrews said he had got too many and asked for a short respite from receiving them!
It was mentioned that people can have their names included in the mass – I have seen that part in the missal, I presume this is the bit referred to?
The stipends are probably different. In the US the stipend is 20 dollars for SSPX priests but I don’t know what it is in Scotland. It might be noted on the Society’s website for each country.
Our priest announced that he was not taking Mass intentions for awhile, too. I think they get a lot in November for the Souls in Purgatory. But sometimes they have to come out and ask for them at other times of the year because no one is requesting them! If your priests are not taking them you can always send it to one of the District houses (SSPX), even in other countries, and they will give it to a priest who can offer the Mass in a timely way.
You can have Masses offered for your family, for your marriage, for a special intention, for your deceased relatives. It’s definitely the most powerful way to help a soul or to bring down God’s blessings on us.
There’s a book “The Hidden Treasure of the Mass” by St. Leonard that can be read for free online. I can’t link to it right now but it should be easy to find.
There is no amount requested for Masses. That would be very wrong. We don’t pay for Masses or buy them. The stipend is merely an offering for the priest. No priest would (or should!) refuse to offer a Mass requested by a poor person who had no money to give.
Having said that, I’m guessing that the 20 dollars mentioned by 3LittleShepherds is given as a kind of suggestion to help those who are in a position to give a stipend but don’t know what sort of amount to offer.
There is no rule and I’ve know people to offer anything from £5 to £10 to £15 to £20 depending on their own financial situation.
Me, I keep promising to give them a cut of my lottery win when it comes through ❗ 😀 ❗
Since Mass stipends have not increased for over 15 years, we are adjusting the stipends within the SSPX in the United States effective immediately as follows: For one Mass:
For a novena of Masses (9 consecutive Masses):
For a series of Gregorian Masses (30 consecutive Masses):
Clarifications: 1. The stipend in no way corresponds with the value of a Mass, which is of infinite value. Expressions such as: “How much does a Mass cost?” or “How much is it for a Mass?” are inaccurate and should not be used. The correct form is: “What is the stipend for a Mass?” 2. Given the small number of priests and the great number of Masses which we are asked to offer, it is almost impossible for us to give specific dates when the Masses will be celebrated. 3. Unlike other donations which are given directly to the Society or its chapels, Mass stipends are given directly to the priest who celebrates the Mass and therefore these are not classified as tax-deductible contributions; consequently, it is not possible for us to give an income tax receipt. 4. We ask those who wish to have Masses said to please indicate clearly on a piece of paper their name, the intention of the Mass to be said (including, if applicable, the name of any person(s) for whom the intention is associated) and to put this information and the stipend in an envelope for the priest (celebrant). Also, please indicate whether the person for whom a Mass is intended is deceased or living. 5. NB: Those unable to pay this new stipend rate should speak with their local pastor in order to request a Mass for a lower stipend. Where to send Mass requests Regina Coeli House District Secretary 11485 N. Farley Road Platte City, MO 64079 Please include a check for the proper amount made out to: Society Since Mass stipends have not increased for over 15 years, we are adjusting the stipends within the SSPX in the United States effective immediately as follows: For one Mass:
For a novena of Masses (9 consecutive Masses):
For a series of Gregorian Masses (30 consecutive Masses):
Clarifications: 1. The stipend in no way corresponds with the value of a Mass, which is of infinite value. Expressions such as: “How much does a Mass cost?” or “How much is it for a Mass?” are inaccurate and should not be used. The correct form is: “What is the stipend for a Mass?” 2. Given the small number of priests and the great number of Masses which we are asked to offer, it is almost impossible for us to give specific dates when the Masses will be celebrated. 3. Unlike other donations which are given directly to the Society or its chapels, Mass stipends are given directly to the priest who celebrates the Mass and therefore these are not classified as tax-deductible contributions; consequently, it is not possible for us to give an income tax receipt. 4. We ask those who wish to have Masses said to please indicate clearly on a piece of paper their name, the intention of the Mass to be said (including, if applicable, the name of any person(s) for whom the intention is associated) and to put this information and the stipend in an envelope for the priest (celebrant). Also, please indicate whether the person for whom a Mass is intended is deceased or living. 5. NB: Those unable to pay this new stipend rate should speak with their local pastor in order to request a Mass for a lower stipend. Where to send Mass requests Regina Coeli House District Secretary 11485 N. Farley Road Platte City, MO 64079 Please include a check for the proper amount made out to: Society of St. Pius X and note detailing how many Masses and their respective intentions.
SOURCE SSPX US.ORG St. Pius X and note detailing how many Masses and their respective intentions.
SOURCE SSPX US.ORG
That is supposed to read 20 dollar stipend, 200 dollar stipend, and 800 dollar stipend for the one, nine, and 30 Masses.
This is a reply to the 3LittleShepherds post at 6.28.a.m. on February 5th.
While I know that priests have expressed concern that too many people offer very small stipends and these have not increased over time, despite everything else rising in price, I do not like that statement from the US District site. Perhaps a short sentence or two would be in order to point out the fact that, in the majority of cases, stipends remain at very low levels, and the priests would ask the faithful to give some thought to that, I don’t like the idea of placing a price on the Mass and, no matter how much they say that is not the case, that’s how it comes across.
I could be wrong, of course, and maybe others will see that statement as perfectly reasonable. Feel free to disagree with me – no problem. But it grates with me, I’m afraid. Personally, I would not offer a stipend at the lower end of the scale (because I can afford a bit more) but I think I’d take a different view if what I usually offer were the suggested minimum stipend. To a lot of people these days £20/£25 is an awful lot of money, especially parents of small children with low income, so while it is affordable for some, maybe even a lot of people, it would be wrong to embarrass those on low incomes who would be deterred, I believe, from asking for a Mass to be offered for a family member or friend in need.
I understand what you’re saying Editor but I see it a little differently. In the US 20 dollars is the price of a medium sized pizza. And I think giving a stipend is a virtuous act and that one would receive grace. I also think it was virtuous for the district to ask for an increase because there are priests who are converts and have no family members to help them or are themselves from poor families, or the priests are now older and their family members are deceased. They have to buy cassocks and socks and razors and sometimes people forget about this.
Again, this is a reply to 3LittleShepherds, Feb 5, 2014 @ 18:02
I see what you’re saying as well and not knowing the exact exchange rate, 20 dollars seems a heck of a lot of money to pay for a medium sized pizza. I’m not a pizza fan at all, but see them in the supermarket for around £3 (even cheaper) and on menus in restaurants from around £7. Mind you, nobody could accuse me of frequenting all the best restaurants 😀 But, if 20 dollars equates to anything approaching £20, that is one dish on the menu I’d be avoiding like the plague!
I completely agree that we should be generous with the clergy remembering that they really depend on us for their material necessities (as we depend on them for the spiritual!) – and for myself I have appreciated, in occasional conversations with priests on the subject (in a general context), knowing the sort of amount of stipend they might minimally expect these days – but I fear that poor families (I know of several on very low incomes with children to feed) would be, perhaps, scandalised and/or fail to have Masses offered due to their impoverishment, if they thought that the widow’s mite of £5 which might be all they could afford, would not be “enough”.
Having said that, none of the families to which I refer has ever raised the subject with me, and I suspect that they simply pray for their special intentions in rosaries and during Masses, without seeking to have a Mass offered for a special intention themselves. I’m just looking for a fight ❗
You don’t like pizza? 😯
I think that if a young family without much money wanted to have a Mass offered for their intentions they should not hesitate to ask. If they are somewhat embarrassed to tell the priest that all they have to offer for a stipend is half the usual amount then this is excellent. They can offer that pain that the embarrassment costs them in union with the Mass that will be offered. If they can understand this and understand that they can make these sacrifices in union with Our Lord’s sacrifice, then they will help him to save souls. It’s what He’s looking for.
I’m sure you are correct and that the families to whom I refer (without their permission, I have to add!) would do exactly as you suggest.
Me? I’d sooner ask the Bank Manager for an overdraft – pride, pride, thy name is “Editor of Catholic Truth” 😉
Urgent: Could someone tell me if there is First Saturday Mass tomorrow at Saint Andrew’s SSPX Glasgow at 11am?
I cant say for sure Miles, but last Sunday Fr McLaughlin did say the usual schedule was disrupted due to Fr Wingerden’s holiday.
If no-one can give definite advice, perhaps try phoning the Priory to check in the morning? See below for contact details, sorry not to be of more help.
St Andrew’s House
31 Lanark Road, Carluke, Scotland ML8 4HE
Tel: 01555 771523
Priests in residence:
Fr John McLaughlin(Prior)
Fr Anthony Wingerden
The First Saturday Mass this month (today) is in Edinburgh.
The Catholic Herald is reporting that St Margarets Adoption Agency in Scotland has won its appeal against losing its charitable status (which would have meant closure).
The Scottish (Catholic) Agency was taken to task after a complaint from Keith Porteous Wood, who is one half of the homosexual male couple who run the National Secular Society (NSS). The basis for the complaint was that the Agency did not place children with homosexuals.
This is great news. I had wondered if there had maybe been some concession behind the scenes, but it seems not – because there is no mention of the result / gloating on the NSS webpage. The story is completely absent, which suggests its indeed a defeat for them.
The BBC is reporting it too:
“A Glasgow-based adoption Agency run by the Catholic Church in Scotland has won an appeal against a decision to strip it of its charitable status.
St Margaret’s Children and Family Care Society had been told by the Scottish Charity regulator it was to lose its status over its refusal to place children with same-sex couples.
This decision had now been overturned by the Scottish Charity Appeals Panel.
The Catholic Church said the agency would continue its work as normal.”
Thanks for posting this – I meant to post it when it came through on the (Glasgow)Herald headlines the other day but didn’t get around to it (and half a dozen other things!)
Yes, it looks like a victory for the Church – hence the silence from the (not so) “gay” community on the issue.
Here is some additional information, from a Barrister of the Thomas More Law Center, as to why St Margarets won the battle to stay open, but similar in agencies did not:
Essentially, the English agencies legal arguments were ineffective and St Margarets took the Barristers advice to state that all their activities were carried out under the auspices of the Catholic Church. (Is it not amazing that some “Catholic” agencies did not state this off the bat?)
Following this, it is legal for St Margarets to “prioritise” couples wishing to adopt within the framework of the Catholic faith.
The second link is the official document issued by the charity appeal panel, explaining the judgement. In it, a spokesman for the charity admits that, in principle, it would consider a same sex couple for adoption. However, its legal ability to prioritise adopters wishing to adopt in line with the Catholic faith means that this will not happen in practice. They cant turn anyone away legally, but they can judge each case on its own merits (with Catholic eyes) and prioritise them accordingly.
The judgement document is quite interesting in that those officials responsible for originally trying to close St Margarets come in for a deal of criticism. They are told they have no place to opine on whether Catholic values are compatible with “modern Scotland”, and indeed the Charity commission is criticised for being a biased, non-transparent organisation.
Thank God St Margaret’s is staying open, and thank God the natural rights of children are being upheld against the ‘rights’ of sexual deviants.
I would like to ask you a question about Marshal Petain, the Chief of State of Vichy France. Was he a practising Catholic? Here you can see him attending a Mass in Paris, at Notre Dame de Paris, presided over by Cardinal Emmanuel Suhard- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=508EWoNE4fM but did he only support the Church in an official capacity as the embodiment of the French nation, or was he privately devout, like Charles De Gaulle or Rene Coty? I know he went to Lourdes and attended official Masses, the SSPX has gone on pilgrimages to his tomb, but Petain was a womaniser.
Also, are any French politicians today practising Catholics/ sympathetic to the Church, either on the modernist or traditional level, apart from Christiane Boutin?
If you would prefer to answer me privately, say so, and Editor will pass on my email to you, I hope.
The post-WWII attitude among academe and the media follows a secular, philo-Semitic, and anti-Catholic narrative. The neo-Catholics have been duped into this through their subconscious appetite to appeal to the ‘world’, which is why they so often brand Traditional Catholics as ‘right-wing’, ‘fascistic’, ‘reactionary’ etc.. I don’t know much about Petain, but at my University we’re taught that Vichy France was practically an abomination, since they to adhere to the same narrative.
In regard to Salazar of Portugal and Franco of Spain, we have all been brainwashed into believing the same sort of thing. The truth is, neither of them were fascists, nor Nazis, not like Hitler or Mussolini. Regardless of the sins of these two leader, and I don’t doubt there were injustices, these Catholic states did their best to uphold the common-good, the faith, and the Church’s social teaching. Which is why, by the way, the philo-semitic, anti-catholic secularists hate them. And we’re all told that these countries were hell on earth because they weren’t democratic, but what these people fail to realise is that Catholicism has never made an idol of democracy like they have.
Indeed, France historically does harbour far-right elements, but it is very wrong to equate neo-Nazism with political Catholicism, whether it be French monarchism or whatever form it takes in a particular region. People seem to forget that most opposition to the National Socialists in Germany came from the Catholic centrists, almost everyone else went along with Hitler. Then we are told Pius XII was a Nazi-loving Holocaust collaborator, although fortunately this myth has progressively lost credibility. It turns out Franco, yes Franco, even gave refuge to many Sephardic Jews and gave them Spanish citizenship. And secular Ireland would do well to remember that it was their modern hero Éamon de Valera who so eagerly signed the book of condolence, for Adolf Hitler. History unveils many hypocrisies.
Communism, Nazism, socialism and fascism are all evil, indeed at the core level they are fundamentally the same: the socio-economic ideology of ‘collectivism’, whereby the dignity and value of the individual created in the image of God is superseded by the ‘group’. The Catholic Church, to my knowledge, are the only ones who have condemned all of them, consistently, throughout all history.
Whilst I genuinely did enjoy reading your post, as I, like your learned self, am a history student, it did not answer my original question of was Marshal Petain a practising Catholic, in terms of genuine faith, not just public duty. I know the drill when it comes to the secular media, and I knew about De Valera’s actions at the end of the War, with his signing the book of condolence for Hitler and expression of sorrow to Ambassador Dr Eduard Hempel. As you know, despite the negative aspects, I’m an admirer of Dr Salazar and General Franco.
This is in today’s Herald Scotland and thought it would be of interest. I think this priest has been mentioned before on this blog.
Fr Lawson has, indeed, been mentioned before on this blog in order to dispel the myth that he is some kind of hero/victim figure. Unfortunately, we are unable to say much more.
I have now had a quick look at the Herald link you posted plus the comments below and it seems he continues to be presented as an innocent abroad.
Here’s one quote from him which is hardly the kind of suggestive talk we expect from a priest with any comprehension of Catholic purity:
From Herald Scotland:
He has been up sick the night before and the stress is showing. “Father doesn’t look well,” one says. “I saw him pulling up his trousers,” says another, referring to the weight he has lost. Father Lawson smiles wryly. “I hope nobody misinterprets that.”
So, thanks for alerting us to this latest report, but, I repeat, Fr Lawson is no innocent abroad. Don’t make the mistake made by the majority of numpties on the Herald blog by jumping to his defence.
I read a report today that said the SSPX Chapels in London, Manchester, Preston and Liverpool etc, are sparsely attended, and in the London Chapels, they have stopped saying Mass twice on Sundays. In contrast the Edinburgh, Glasgow and Irish Chapels are flourishing, I hear.
Where did you read that report? I’m very surprised – I was under the impression that across the UK the Society chapels were fairly well attended. Would like to have a source for that, if you can provide a link.
I know that Liverpool doesn’t have a large congregation but then neither does any church in Liverpool. I read that the entire Sunday Mass attendance of the 12 parishes that make up the central deanery could fit into one Mass at the cathedral and there would still be empty seats. London did have two Masses but it was changed to one when the church at Woking was opened and also because many of the London congregation moved to be near the school.
Like the Editor I would be interested in seeing the report.
That doesn’t sound good, though Vianney explains why there was a change to the schedule in London. I understand there are two SSPX venues in London – St Joseph and St Padarns Church and also the house chapel at the SSPX residence (St Georges house, is it?).
I’d be very interested to read the report if you have a link, CC – thanks.
I know the SSPX in London previously had some negative publicity, based on the activities of (now-expelled) Bishop Williamson. I hope that has not put people off.
That was my own first thought – that the work of the rebels against Bishop Fellay had managed to drive people away or deter newcomers. I know the atmosphere in our chapel (tearoom, to be precise!) changed for the better when the rebels stopped attending, but thankfully nobody seems to have been driven away. Let’s hope those who may have been driven away in London have not been lost to the Society altogether.
I had previously noticed some people had stopped attending St Andrews. How many do you estimate them to be? (I thought only a handful – can think of only one family).
Are these people now without mass provision? In any case, it is sad that division can affect even a small congregation. Right enough, there is more unity among that small SSPX congregation than in the typical parish church, which is usually no more than a gathering of individuals, all of whom define their own morality.
I don’t know much about it, but it seems these “resistance” people are a tiny minority in thrall to a handful of rebellious clergy.
Here is where I read the report, although, I personally doubt the truthfulness of the content, and I have taken it with a pinch of salt. I just wanted your opinions, as I am not experienced the SSPX and have never attended an SSPX Mass.
Preston and Bristol aren’t on there, that’s just anecdotal evidence with I’ve seen on the web, with no links.
I like the fish-eaters forum and occasionally post there – but I dislike the fact it allows sedevacantists to propagate their views.
The link goes to a post which itself references “Traditio” as the source. The Traditio article quotes an unnamed British source for the SSPX mass info. I would not put any stock into it.
I am not sure what kind of site Traditio is, but I wonder if it is a sede or “resistance” website, (anyone?), given the vitriol it attacks Bishop Fellay wish.
The website claims (article dated May 30, 2012) that “Bernie Fellay” was only made a Bishop because a wealthy Swiss bribed ++Lefebvre to make a Swiss Bishop. It claims Fellay was the only Swiss ++Lefebvre could get his hands on!
I do not think that is correct: +Fellay is now the senior SSPX Bishop. I have never met him personally, but he strikes me as a good leader and an exceptionally Holy, thoughtful and competent man – he doesn’t strike me as a nobody who somehow fell into a prominent position due to skullduggery behind the scenes.
Gabriel Syme, I wouldn’t pay attention to anything that is reported on Traditio. It’s a sedevacantist site and the man who runs it claims to be a priest but whenever he has been asked to provide proof of this he refuses to do so. He prints what he claims are letters from readers (mostly from SSPX people complaining about the Society) but it’s said he writes most of them himself. One such letter was supposed to be from someone who said they had turned up at their local SSPX chapel and the priest came out of the sacristy and proceeded to celebrated the Novus Ordo. Another was said to be from a London parishioner who claimed that they had turned up at the church very early one Sunday morning to find two of Bishop Fellay’s henchmen dragging a crying Bishop Williamson up the aisle of the church after having pulled him from his bed. What he didn’t know was that the church in in North London and the chapel house (and therefore the Bishop’s bed) is in South London.
I heard from an American gentleman that he knew of someone who wrote regarding liturgical abuses taking place in his local Novus Ordo parish. The letter was printed but the NO parish was changed to an SSPX chapel. Apparently Traditio is known in Traditionalist circles as the Daily Lie
.I was told that the man who runs the site was a seminarian but was thrown out for some reason and has hated the SSPX and Bishop Fellay ever since and has made it his life’s work to try to discredit both.
“He prints what he claims are letters from readers (mostly from SSPX people complaining about the Society) but it’s said he writes most of them himself”
Why didn’t I think of that ❓
“Why didn’t I think of that.” ❓
I thought you did! Lol.
Thanks Vianney, I figured there was something odd about that site!
Whose side are you on? 😯
You are right – they are only a handful comprising several members of one family, an elderly couple, and another small family. I believe they attend a hall in Cambuslang somewhere for a Holy Hour on a Sunday with occasional Masses with a priest (I presume from England, not sure) who is, I’m told, a “novus ordo ‘convert’ ordained by Bishop Williamson.)
Yeah, really “traditional” – NOT!
“I understand there are two SSPX venues in London – St Joseph and St Padarns Church and also the house chapel at the SSPX residence (St Georges house, is it?).”
Yes that’s correct and there is the church in Woking which is south of London and is regarded as the church for those who stay in South London.
Did you post somewhere that the chapel in Edinburgh has a website?
Hi 3LITTLESHEPHERDS, yes, the site is http://www.latinmassedinburgh.com please pay us a visit.
Thanks, nice site. Pretty church, lots of statues! (I have that St. Therese statue.) I saw books for children in the shop, something we don’t have in our shop 🙁 . I also liked the separated tables and right there with all the books! And soup, that’s such a good idea it deserves to be borrowed!
You are welcome and I’m glad you like the site. We are very blessed ith our church and the facilities we have. I’ll let you into a little secret regarding the statues. St Theresa and St Margaret are twins. A statue maker in Liverpool turned a statue of St Theresa in St Margaret which is why they have similar features. They face each other across the church and I can just imagine St Theresa saying “I know that face.” The cafe in the hall is run on a rota system and whoever is on duty makes the soup for that day. Filled rolls and biscuits and cake are also available and also pizza one week and toasties the next. The library is also in the hall. The shop is very popular and people come from local parishes to buy things. You should ask whoever runs your shop to stock children’s books. Where is you church?
The Liverpool chapel is doing well from what I’ve heard, several good young families etc. They got a nice new church last year and are growing slowly but steadily. I don’t know much about the other chapels but the Scandinavian missions attended by the SSPX in London are doing better than ever in many ways, just two years ago one may have been forgiven for thinking that their days were numbered but now Oslo and Stockholm have their own humble yet permanent venues from which to expand and twice monthly Sunday masses. Gothenburg has a small yet stable crowd as well. Who knows, within a few years we might see a Scandinavian priory. Considering the SSPX is also making serious inroads in the Baltic states, they may soon be in control of the entire Baltic sea 😉
I do hope the London SSPX can be blessed with some stability and growth though I don’t have much of an idea what their current situation is. As far as I know there is a core of faithful which will carry them through any current hardships. The three priests they have are all excellent.
Scotland’s (real) shame – today saw the final phase of the legalisation of same-sex “marriage” in Scotland. Plenty on the TV news about that scandal but no mention of this – wonder why?
I read somewhere concerning the protests in Paris, there were 800,000, but the government downplayed the figures. Also many Priests, including those from St Nicolas Du Chardonnet were beaten up by the gendarmerie. Even the Archbishop of Paris, Monsignor Vingt-Trois was mocked by politicians at a parliamentary select committee. That’s democracy for you.
HOW MOSES GOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS…..
God went to the Arabs and said, ‘I have Commandments for you that will make your lives better.’
The Arabs asked, ‘What are Commandments?’
And the Lord said, ‘They are rules for living.’
‘Can you give us an example?’
‘Thou shall not kill.’
‘Not kill? We’re not interested..’
So He went to the Blacks and said, ‘I have Commandments.’
The Blacks wanted an example, and the Lord said,
‘Honor thy Father and Mother.’
‘Father? We don’t know who our fathers are.
We’re not interested.’
Then He went to the Mexicans and said,
‘I have Commandments.’
The Mexicans also wanted an example, and the Lord said ‘Thou shall not steal.’
‘Not steal? We’re not interested.’
Then He went to the French and said,
‘I have Commandments.’
The French too wanted an example and the Lord said, ‘Thou shall not commit adultery.’
‘Sacre bleu! Not commit adultery? We’re not interested.’
Finally, He went to the Jews and said,
‘I have Commandments.’