Loftus Lashes Out: Summorum Pontificum A Mere “Concession”…
Below is an extract from the column by Mgr Basil Loftus (of “there’s no physical resurrection and no physical real presence” fame) published in the Scottish Catholic Observer dated Friday 13/12/13. There is no direct link to the piece online, so the relevant portion is copied below. The fact that he gets away with the rubbish he regularly publishes in both the Catholic Times (sold UK wide) and the Scottish Catholic Observer, speaks volumes about the lack of Catholicity of both editors. Well, that’s what I think – what about you? And it’s just so easy to pick holes in the Monsignor’s writings that I’m almost ashamed to invite bloggers so to do 🙂
The work of liturgical reform has been a serve to the people as a re-reading of the Gospel from a concrete historical situation.
Those words of Pope Francis are a guide for the whole Church, and a tribute to Archbishop Bugnini and all who have since struggled to keep alive the spirit of liturgical reform. But they differ from the ‘spirit of the times’ for the last 50 years.
In that early interview with La Civiltà Cattolica Francis very carefully reined in previous wide interpretations of what Pope Benedict XVI had called the need ‘to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.’ Pope Benedict had been speaking in the context of his presentation of the concession made in favour of the Tridentine-rite Mass (Summorum Pontificum.) Francis specified that, other impressions not withstanding, the faculty of celebrating in that rite is just that – a ‘concession’ to “people who have this sensitivity.” He warned against stirring up this kind of nostalgia in the Church as a whole, cautioning the young people in Brazil against ‘a process of regression, seeking to recover the past.’
Now, in his first Apostolic Exhortation, a true watershed in his Papacy, Francis has strengthened these words further, criticising those who ‘feel superior to others’ because ‘they remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past,’ with ‘an ostentatious preoccupation for the liturgy, for doctrine and for the Church’s prestige…a tremendous corruption disguised as a good…God save us from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings.
As the Church now tries through continuing liturgical reform to re-read the Gospels from today’s concrete historical situation, rather than in the light of the past, provision will continue to be made, as it was always intended to be by Pope Paul VI, for ‘concessions’ in favour of those whose spiritual ‘sensitivity’ is a mark of their special needs. But while they may be allowed to circle the wagons around the Tridentine-rite Masses or the Personal Prelacy dedicated to former Anglican priests and their followers, the Church as a whole is relentlessly set on a course of re-reading the Gospel in the light of today’s world. Effectively, this calls especially for ever greater-Liturgical simplification.
Pope Francis is also sensitive to today’s need for short-span concentration – cutting down on the readings where he feels Mass is oing on too long, and famously limiting his homilies to a few ‘sound-bites’.
[There follows a paragraph on the Pope’s comments on homilies concluding: “The homily can actually be an intense and happy experience of the Spirit, a consoling encounter with God’s word, a constant source of renewal and growth.”]
Liturgy is the articulation of our Faith. If we strangle our liturgical life with ‘outdated manners and forms, which even on the cultural level are no longer meaningful,’ then we also abort the growth of the life of Faith. (Mgr Basil Loftus: This is a watershed moment in the Pontificate of Pope Francis, Scottish Catholic Observer, 13/12/13)
Comments (113)
The article attributes the following, “…God save us from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings. “to His Holiness. Yet the problem does not lie with SSPX but with the mainstream Church. It is the Church that has succumbed to the selfishness and moral relativism of the secular world.
There can be no spiritual advantage to “re-reading the Gospel in the light of today’s world”, for the world has no light other than that which emanates from God. Instead of preaching to the world what it needs to hear -the message of Christ – the Church is finding ways to accommodate the world both in response to the actions of the world and within the Church.
It will all end in tears.
which even on the cultural level are no longer meaningful
What does this mean???
Tirrey,
Monsignor Loftus is always on about the vestments/lace etc. so I bet he is thinking of that when he says “on a cultural level are no longer meaningful” I guess he is thinking of the vestments, mainly. He sounds like the kind of priest who would be happy wearing a Paisley pattern sweater when celebrating Mass. If I’m being unkind – sorry. That’s just how he strikes me when I read his comments about the old Mass and vestments plus his preference for informality.
I don’t understand how he could have any problem with vestments,or gestures which serve to honour God.I’d love to hear his explanation.
Didn’t he also describe an unborn baby as an aggressor.
I think there’s two issues here. One issue is Monsignor Basil Loftus himself. He will never change. There’s a group of them that were intent on destroying the ancient liturgy and saw Vatican II as their chance. Of course, the Council was successful, but only partly. God has not allowed His Sacred Liturgy to be stamped out. They have tried and tried but they have failed. God raised up Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and his Society of Saint Pius X. As hard as successive popes, prelates, individual priests etc have tried the Sacred Liturgy of the Church is still alive.
Of course this leads to bitterness. Archbishop Bugnini and his henchmen, to whom Monsignor Basil Loftus is an heir, declared that the Roman Rite had been destroyed. Well, it wasn’t destroyed. It will never be destroyed. This drives the modern day liturgical revolutionists crazy. No matter what they do, the Traditional Mass will not go away. I think this explains Monsignor Loftus’ anger and bitterness.
Secondly, the fact that this poison is being published by so called Catholic editors is an outrage. These editors have no backbone and quite probably do not have the Catholic Faith. They see these issues as some sort of democratic debate. They aim to let everyone have their say. This is not the way the Church operates. We are not a democracy.
It has to be said, however, that Monsignor Basil Loftus and these editors operate under the jurisdiction of the Bishops. The local bishop should act and forbid Monsignor Loftus from writing. Some may argue that the newspapers are independent, but mark my words, the bishops would soon intervene if a SSPX priest or bishop had their work published.
Petrus,
“They (the editors of Catholic papers) see these issues as some sort of democratic debate. They aim to let everyone have their say.”
The trouble is, they actually don’t let everyone have their say. The papers are censored so that hardly any traditionalists get published and even if they do, Monsignor Loftus is nearly always published alongside, giving his answers. That’s been reported on this blog a few times. I’d have thought it’s very unethical for an editor to do that.
I do agree that the bishops would soon intervene if an SSPX priest or bishop got published in these Catholic papers. There would be all hell let loose if that happened.
That’s a very important point, Jacinta. I meant to write something like “They claim to let everyone have their say”. Your point was very much in my mind as I was writing. Well said.
The best way to have our say is to do what we are already doing…..ignore the lot of them……except to douse them with “invective” at every turn
(Ignore) the Novus Ordo …..it’s not worth getting out of bed for, even when said “reverently”…. In fact especially when said reverently……
Ed: rest of this post deleted – Crouchback, please do not provoke me to anger. You know it’s a big mistake.
Theresa Rose says:
December 15, 2013 at 6:09 pm
Remember Pope Pius X Oath against Modernism mandated on September 1, 1910, where all Catholic clergy had to take. It was rescinded on July 1967.
For the record: Franciscans of the Immaculate under severe Vatican persecution.
RORATE brings you all texts:
* Apostolic Commissioner: FI problem is its “crypto-lefebvrian and definitely traditionalist drift”
* Seminary closed: no ordinations for one year
* Ordinands must take unprecedented oath on Novus Ordo
* Ordered “by the Vicar of Christ”
Is this not a reverse of the above Oath against Modernism. Forcing a Congregation of priests to say the Novus Ordo Mass and stop offering the Tridentine Mass?
Dangerous times indeed.
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. As we pray so we believe. To more or less quote Archbishop Bugnini who said:
“That he would strip everything from the Mass (the Tridentine Mass) all that was a stumbling block to Protestants”. The Tridentine Mass makes clear the Propriatory Sacrifice – the Bloodless Calvary at an altar in which the bread and wine is Consecrated and becomes the Body and Blood of Christ.
Calvary present at each Mass.
The Novus Ordo Mass a meal in remembrance, at a table. How many have fallen away from this Mass. A lack of belief that the Body and Blood is present in the Host and win after the Consecration. The lack of reverence is palpable.
I think the FI’s should do the right thing, and break away, similar to the SSPX. What planet must the Vatican be on to do this damage to an order that is clearly flourishing under the traditional rite?
I don’t think they should “break away” but they could all decide to join the SSPX or one of the other traditional priestly societies.
Also, I’ve been thinking about the voting on the website and the more I think of it, I think Pope Benedict needs to speak out when Pope Francis undermines Summorum Pontificum. There’s already anarchy in the Church so I can’t see it would make that much difference except to encourage orthodox Catholics to see the former pope doing the right thing.
They don’t have to join the SSPX but could put themselves under the umbrella of the Society like many other orders have done.
Which groups did that?
The Dominican nuns
Josephine,
But if the FI’s did decide to place themselves under the protection of FSSP, a mainstream traditionalist group, could the Pope then not decide to suppress the TLM in this group and other traditionalist groups? It may serve them well to place themselves under the SSPX.
They don’t need to break anything, Quo Primum has guaranteed every priest the right to say the Catholic Mass since 1570……
We all know this…..all we require is these Friars show a bit of back bone……tell (Pope Francis) (what they think of) the Novus Ordo. It’s what Jesus would do.
Ed: Crouchback, you’re really looking for trouble. And in great danger of finding it. I’m having to replace some unacceptable language in your posts this evening and it’s rattling my cage, big time. Please behave.
“the Church as a whole is relentlessly set on a course of re-reading the Gospel in the light of today’s world. Effectively, this calls especially for ever greater-Liturgical simplification.”
Really? Where in the gospels does it speak of “liturgical simplification”? The Church has been on a relentless course of self-destruct since this “Liturgical simplification” began.
Petrus,
When I read that bit of the article I couldn’t help thinking that if the schools and priests had been teaching the Catholic faith all these years, there wouldn’t be any need for “liturgical simplification.” I think they must now realise that young people can hardly make the sign of the cross – maybe that’s why the Monsignor thinks we need “liturgical simplification”?
Exactly. We also have priests who can’t understand basic tenets of the Faith.
So Mgr Loftus maintains that Summorum Pontificum a Mere “Concession”. Well the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated.
Jacinta and Petrus,
I agree with both of you, “if schools and priests had been teaching the Catholic faith, there wouldn’t be any need for liturgical simplification”. And, “having priests who can’t understand basic tenets of the Faith”.
Perhaps if Mgr Loftus listened to New York Detective Thomas Gabriel’s talk, titled:
Crime and Punishment: The Devastating Effects of the Novus Ordo Mass – he would learn something.
But, this he would not waste his time on.
Detective Thomas Gabriel says “It is the abandonment of Solid Catholic Doctrine and the Social Kingship of Christ that made the New Mass possible”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifdXbly4X_U
Interesting comment, Petrus.
I’d like to share a ‘guess what happened to me’ story. Some years ago I was working in a village near Oxford and I took the opportunity to attend Mass at the local parish on a Holy Day of Obligation. I got chatting to the priest (who shall remain nameless) to see if I could interest him in some free pro-life literature for his church. I could scarcely believe my ears when I heard him say that he….wait for it… ‘approved of artificial contraception’…!
His ‘reasoning’ was this…..’What happens if the husband (or presumably, partner) comes home drunk one night and wants his ‘wicked way’. This may be at an inconvenient time for her. What is the poor wife to do? If she refuses, she will likely incur the wrath of her ‘man’ and could end up being verbally and/or physically abused. However, if she consents she could well end up with an unwanted pregnancy…..’
God help us!
What a weirdo. That’s the strangest moral legitimization for contraception I have heard from a dissident Catholic to date.
Miles Immaculatae,
Believe it or not, that is one of the more common excuses given by Catholics for allowing contraception. They really believe that to deal with one problem you just create another, and since it’s only the health of the woman at stake, who cares?
Another trashy excuse is that artificial contraception reduces the need for abortion, which is a greater evil, apparently.
I had no idea that owd Baz Loftus denied the Real Presence. This isn’t just heterodoxy, it’s patent heresy, and a manifestation of evil. We should not be paying attention to him for two reasons: a) he is no longer a Catholic, due to his denial of infallibly revealed dogma and b) he’s a raving loony. It angers me no end, when I, a future convert, unflinchingly upholds everything the Holy Church teaches and has ever taught, cannot receive Communion, but this bird-brain, who is a heretic, can receive. I really am so angry. I could spit. Fuming. Hanging off the lightshades.
However, venom over with. Summorum Pontificum was not a concession, it was never abrogated or banned. It would have been a concession if the traditional rite was made illegal, but it wasn’t. What it’s purpose was, was to give greater freedom to and remove ‘stigma’ from those Priests and Laity who desired to celebrate and participate in it, and also, I believe to neutralise as far as possible the SSPX. If the TLM was celebrated more widely in the ‘mainstream’ Church, then the ‘mad trads’ might gravitate back.
But no, it wasn’t a concession in the truest sense of the term.
“the TLM was celebrated more widely in the ‘mainstream’ Church, then the ‘mad trads’ might gravitate back.”
It’s been tried and it doesn’t work. In Edinburgh and Glasgow the “approved” Tridentine Masses attract very small congregations in comparison to the SSPX chapels.
In the town of Syracuse in New York State, U.S. the SSPX purchased a large church directly across the road from the smaller local Parish church. (if you go on Google maps and look up 450 Wilkinson street Syracuse NY and the click “street scene” you will see the chapel house on the right with the two churches facing each other) The diocese started a Tridentine Mass in the parish church to try to draw people away but it didn’t succeed. The parish church has now closed down and the SSPX chapel is still going strong. What the high heid yins in the Church fail to understand is that it’s not just the Tridentine Mass that folk want, it’s the Catholic Faith in it’s entirety and you don’t get that at “approved” Masses.
That’s absolutely true, Vianney. The Bishops are like ostriches sticking their head in the sand. They need to wake up and smell the incense.
What interests me is that if there are any Catholics reading and listening to the above who presently attend the novus ordo (I am sure there are plenty) how can they possibly continue to go to the new mass. As a once ignorant cradle Catholic who was brought up in the new mass (not knowing anything else), this would be enough for me to question its validity and do my own research. Returning to the true Catholic faith, thus the Traditional Latin Mass is the only option available to Catholics – those who choose to ignore these very clear facts are only fooling themselves. As the video clip states that the greatest protection from spiritual evil comes from Sanctifying Grace mainly from the Traditional Faith and therefore, the Traditional Mass, then its clear and simple. Catholic should not be confused. You only have to look around you, and see the diabolical disorientation. I think priests like Mgr. Loftus is seriously misleading Catholics with his article above. So many priests and other clergy are leading souls to hell. I see this article is in the Scottish Catholic Observer – the very fact that this newspaper claims to be ‘Catholic’ and allows such news to be reported just goes to prove that it is not a Catholic newspaper and supports modernism to its core. Since reading this article I have read another written by Mgr. Loftus called Council Set- to-right-the-wrong-of faith-forgeries. It is very clear that Mgr. Loftus is set out to poison the minds of Catholics leaving them confused. I was rightly advised against reading this newspaper, and now I can see why. Catholics have to stop fooling themselves that the novus ordo is pleasing to God.
Catherine,
Absolutely spot on. Every word a piece of gold. Well said.
I quite agree, Catherine about the TLM and the entire faith being a protection against spiritual evil. At Novus Ordo parishes people behave as if Jesus was not there, i.e no genuflections, women in hotpants/ wearing makeup/miniskirts and modern happy clappy songs. Not to mention the collapse of Catholicism in Europe. The collapse of Western society largely stems from Vatican II.
Catherine,
I see your point (asking why Catholics still attend the novus ordo). This article on another blog made me ask the same question.http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/priest-celebrates-vigil-of-marian-feast.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheEponymousFlower+(The+Eponymous+Flower)
I suppose it’s for a variety of reasons. There sometimes isn’t a Latin Mass near enough to get to, or some people are afraid of being disloyal to their parish priest or else people just don’t really see the importance of switching especially if they have a reverent priest who says the new Mass reverently. I do think if I ever experienced a Mass like the one where the priest dresses as a woman, as in the article at Eponymous Flower, I’d definitely have to do something radical, if I was still attending the new Mass.
‘I do think if I ever experienced a Mass like the one where the priest dresses as a woman, as in the article at Eponymous Flower, I’d definitely have to do something radical, if I was still attending the new Mass’.
Would you class punching his lights out as radical?
CATHOLIC CONVERT
“If the TLM was celebrated more widely in the ‘mainstream’ Church, then the ‘mad trads’ might gravitate back”
That’s true but be assured that you’re not likely to hear the great sermons a ‘mad trad’ hears when attending an SSPX Mass! Well not at first anyway, modern seminaries would have to improve too.
As Ed said, every word a piece of gold. I must agree that SSPX sermons are electrifying. However, I still believe that it was part of the reasoning behind Summorum Pontificum, in order to weaken the SSPX, but as someone said above, it didn’t work. The SSPX waxes, the liberal Churches wanes, evidence that the TLM is truly blessed by God.
Monsignor Loftus is correct. The Motu Proprio was an unnecessary concession. The Tridentine Mass has nothing to offer the modern church. Nothing. How can the people take part? They can’t. It’s very elitist and designed to keep the lowly laity in there place. What we need is a new Bugnini to take into account the God given lay ministries.
Montini,
It seems your post has been overlooked – If I were you I’d duck now and stay down there.
Or, to quote a famous sportsman “you cannot be serious!” 🙂
I think he’s been satirical.
Er… well, if the TLM has nothing to offer the new Church why is it experiencing a vocations boom? If the ‘mad trads’ have nothing to offer then why was Benedict XVI so intent on reconciliation?
Like your namesake, Giovanni Montini, you make no sense, and I hope to God you are being satirical. Please challenge my views on the SSPX because I have facts to prove my point that they are booming.
Montini
People can actually take part by attending.
My parents attended Mass every morning (8am) and walked one and a half miles back home on a busy road when in their late seventies and early eighties. Are you suggesting that they did not take part in the Mass? How many, other than the one-day-a-week catholics who love to be seen prancing about on the altar, take part in the NO Masses today? They don’t even bother to ensure that they are in a state of grace by taking part in confession before receiving communion, so please don’t tell us Monsignor Brush, sorry, Loftus, is correct. Personally, I think he should be sent his P45 to stop him taking part in anything other than visiting the Jobcentre.
Mind you, when you mention Bugnini I am certain you are at the kidding.
I don’t doubt your parents devotion. They grew up with the ancient Mass and it was suitable for them. However, it is not suitable for young people today. I’ve been to one or two and it’s a rosary gathering. Pray the rosary by all means but Mass isn’t the place. This shows that you cannot participate at the old Mass.
The praying of the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Holy Rosary during Holy Mass is an ancient and venerable practice, indeed the method of assisting at Holy Mass most favoured by Saint Pio of Pietrelcina. One unites oneself with ones’s Sorrowful Mother at the Foot of the Cross and meditates upon the Passion and Death of the Sacrificial Victim, Our Lord, truly renewed upon the Holy Altar in an un-bloody manner. Since the character of the Novus Ordo is manifestly lacking in such a sense of sacrifice, it figures the Rosary would be out of place. Who would be so rude as to pray at a shared meal? (I know you’re probably dying to tell me how the Novus Ordo Missae in fact does retain the character of sacrifice, but that is only according to your educated and elitist understanding. Think for one minute, does the ordinary person at Mass perceive any sense of this?)
Notalota younguns go to Mass any more my friend. What century are you in? More pertinently, what planet are you on?
Excellent response to Montini seems to have disappeared into cyberspace oblivion, help me, do help me, yes help me.
Miles Immaculatae,
I’ve now found your disappeared posts – they had, in fact, gone into SPAM for some reason, but because my Dashboard has suddenly changed (nobody warned me!) I didn’t realise it. The previous notice of SPAM had gone, and – without boring you to death – showed up in a different place. I’ve just stumbled on it by accident and trawled to find you comments, now released. Sincere apologies.
PS Now that I’ve retrieved your missing comments, I hope you’ll retrieve your missing avatar. As and when. 🙂
Montini
I have to laugh at your use of the word suitable when mentioning my parents. It’s as if you are talking about uneducated idiots.
You say that the “ancient” Mass is not suitable for young people today
Well, it seems that the modern Mass isn’t all that suitable either for the young since very few attend and those that do go look as if they are bored out of their wits. There are school- leavers today who have hardly been at Mass in a church. Any Masses they have attended have all been in their school. Maybe when they leave school they don’t realise that there are actually other paces where a Mass can be attended.
You talk about participating in the Mass. Does this participation include
walking straight into a pew without genuflecting, having a chat with anyone within a 10 yard radius, walking halfway round the church to shake someone’s hand and then sitting up before going to receive communion with a pair of hands that has been used in toilet duties about half an hour beforehand, not to mention what will happen to any minute particle of host still on the hands after receiving the Blessed Sacrament?
You wouldn’t be allowed into the local library even to carry on like this and you certainly wouldn’t have seen it during an ancient Mass. As soon as respect, obedience and discipline disappeared from our religion the
crowds started to dwindle and they certainly don’t look like slowing.
Maybe it was time you were starting to say the rosary along with me.
But you haven’t addressed my point. Where is the participation? You are not participating at Mass if you are praying the Rosary.
At my Mass I participate by saying the responses. By listening and pondering – something you cannot do at a Mass in a foreign dead language. I sometimes distribute the wine. I read the readings.
As for chatting – nothing wrong with that. Christ is present where two or three are gathered. The best way to love God is to love my neighbour. Frank Duff said we should meet others where they are. Give them a positive view of Catholicism. Asking how they are in the Church is not wrong. Goodness, we must love others – not shut ourselves off rattling beads and not communicating. “communion” is about the Church family too. The people of God.
At first I was under the impression that Montini was being sarcastic or was on a ‘fishing trip’ now I am not so sure
Firstly you never distribute wine (unless the Mass is valid).
Secondly how many Masses in the traditional rite have you been to to form those opinions?
True and active participation does not have to include external gestures like answering aloud or getting up and doing stuff. True and active participation involves uniting yourself mind and soul with the intention of the priest, you should perhaps read some of the writings of Pope Benedict on the subject.
If you have a missal with the equivalent translations then you can read along and ponder to your hearts content.
That foreign dead language that you refer to, should still be the language used at all Masses and was the vision of the second vatican council.
If you want to chat do it outside the Church before or after Mass, the Church is not some sort of meeting room for a catch up.
Nolite Timere,
Can you hear my heart singing from there?
Next thing you know, we’ll be defending you against charges of schism for all the praise you’ll be lavishing on Archbishop Lefebvre 🙂
When on the Continent [French, German, Italian speaking] and unable to get to a TLM, I manage quite well with the NOM as far as language is concerned – local idiosyncracies excepted. However, I have recently been in Malta for ten days and the latter six found me hearing Mass at 06:30 every morning. I was almost completely lost due to the language, underwriting that which we were told in our youth: Mass was essentially the same everywhere and understood by all through the ‘mortar in the brickwork’ of the Latin language. There was an English Mass on Sundays at an adjacent chapel, which I avoided.
What I did note that there was no chatter in church before or after Mass, and, the “Peace” in no way resembled the farce which it has become in the UK. On the downside: all appeared to receive The Host in the hand.
I answered your criticism regarding the Rosary. It vanished after posting and the blog moderator(s) seem to have been unable to retrieve it. Here is roughly what I said:
The praying of the Holy Rosary during Mass is an ancient and venerable custom, indeed, it was the method of assisting at Holy Mass most preferred by Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, whereby one unites oneself with the affections and intentions of Our Sorrowful Mother on Calvary whilst meditating upon the Passion and Death of Her son, the Sacrificial Victim of the Mass, which is truly renewed upon the Altar before us in an un-bloody manner.
Evidently, this wouldn’t make sense to the average Novus Ordo attendee since the character of sacrifice and sacrality have been greatly diminished, if not obliterated in many places. Do you even believe the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice offered in satisfaction for our sin? Do you believe it is the meeting of heaven upon earth as described in the book of Apocalypse, where the real, physical substantial presence of Our Lord is adored in the company of all the angels and saints in heaven? Do you believe that you kneel next to Our Blessed Mother at the Foot of the Cross, not symbolically, but in reality? Do you believe the Holy Rosary is the greatest most efficacious pray after the Mass itself?
A great number of people find the constant responses in the Novus Ordo a distraction to their pious contemplation of these Sacred Mysteries.
Montini
Sorry for the delay in answering but I take part in being there.
Jock Stein once famously said that football was nothing without the fans. He didn’t actually mean that they should be playing. You can enjoy a sporting event without the need to cheer. What about the people who don’t take part in the NO Mass, not everyone does you know, are they wasting their time in going?
Could you address my point; would you be allowed to chat out loud in the local library or handle an old relic without gloves on? And what’s all this about rattling rosary beads?
As for the dead language, it is simple enough to understand as most of the latin words are self-explanatory. What about the Salve Regina, the Ave Maria and Adeste Fidelis? Do you think they should be banned from the hymn books? Not that you are likely to recognise them in the places you frequent. It’s a pity English wasn’t a dead language too. We would still have the real meaning of the gay word.
As I have said before, Monti, there are thousands of “Christian” religions out there that you could pick and choose from, most of them quite happy to allow you to ask how your pew-mates are keeping, You can divorce, practice birth control, abort your offspring, thieve and steal and it is all considered above board. You could even join a sect that allows all different kinds of handshakes and get yourself a decent job, so why wait?
Tell me your final choice when it happens.
Frankie,
Are you claiming that Catholics who attend the NORMAL form of Mass aren’t really Catholics and can be compared to sects?
I don’t know where you have been going to Mass because I don’t see a lot of chat. Yes, people greet each other but that’s just manners. I went to a Latin Mass once and everyone looked utterly miserable, trying to outdo each other to see who could look the most piuous. Pathetic, more like it.
As for birth control etc the Church says what it says and that’s fine. There does have to be reality because not everyone can live up to those high ideals. I don’t hear many people complaining about it. So, I don’t see what your point is. I think you are more of a Jansenist to be honest.
As for Latin, a bit of Latin is nice now and again as a bit of nostalgia – but not every week. The Church is the people of God – not the ancient missals.
Montini
Some Churches I have been in have been outrageously noisy before, during and after Mass, in many places this is now unfortunately the norm.
If you have only been to a Latin mass once, perhaps you should give it another few visits. The first few I went to I had no real idea what was going on, but it does become more accessible…perhaps your problem was that you were too busy looking around to see what others were looking like.
“The Church says what it says…”
That’s basically code for I know what the Church teaches but I think I know better so I’m putting myself above the wisdom of Her teaching…that’s a dangerous road to go down.
As for Latin, perhaps you should re-read (or read for the first time) the appropriate documents from the Second Vatican Council which gave pride of place to the Universal Language of the Church which was intended to be used in all celebrations of the Mass.
Dearest Ed
That may just be wishful thinking. I do attend the TLM on occasion when I can, and enjoy the spirituality, the quietness and the focus.
However I still attend the NO on the majority of occasions.
‘Some Churches I have been in have been outrageously noisy before, during and after Mass, in many places this is now unfortunately the norm’.
I personally get sick to death of ignorant and irreverent people chatting away. But at the same time I can’t help listening- and now I’m an expert on Mrs Battersby and her bad feet!!!
Catholic Convert,
You’re a scream! I wish you’d move to Glasgow – we could use a laugh, now and again (more now than again) believe me 🙂
Nolite Timere,
I always say to people when I’m encouraging them to attend the SSPX Masses, that there’s little point in coming now and again, in between attending the NO. If – I tell them in my wisdom – they attend for an extended period of time (say, at least, six consecutive weeks) they will feel differently about everything.
This may shock you, but in a book of interviews with some priests who (prior to Summorum Pontificum) learnt the TLM, all of the priests said in various ways that they gradually got to the stage where they could no longer keep saying the two Masses. They had to abandon the new and offer only the old rite. One of them (this is the bit that may shock you) said that after a while when offering the two Masses (going between them he meant) “you get to hate the new Mass”.
Now, there’s only a particular type of “hate” that comes from God – the nasty vengeful kind comes from the Devil. So, I leave that thought with you.
I should add that that same priest also said “I don’t know how the indult guys do it” – i.e. the priests who were permitted by the Bishop to offer the old rite. It’s one of the things I find puzzling about the priests in Glasgow who are offering the old Mass, yet still participate in the whole Vatican II revolution, not least by routinely saying the new Mass. I just cannot understand it.
One other thing that makes me always encourage people to attend the SSPX TLM is this; the priests, certainly the priest in Glasgow who took over the official “diocesan” /ex-indult Mass from Fr Dunn, is no fan of the TLM. I hear from all over the place that he says it because he’s been asked from on high to say it, since that’s where the Una Voce Mass is advertised. I prefer the priest to be committed to the Mass I’m attending – not just offering it as a kind of “duty” from which he’d really prefer to be excused.
One final thing that makes me encourage people to attend the SSPX TLM is this: it’s not “just” the Mass that we need, but the whole package – doctrine (supplied in sermons), wholesome reading (no “Catholic” papers on sale), devotions (Benediction regularly – well, once a month after Mass) and glamour (supplied by moi)
What more could you ask?
Ed,
What can I say, I’m a funny guy 🙂
I second what Editor has said here about a sustained attendance at the TLM. If it is an occasional thing only, then it can be bewildering and you never really understand it or learn to follow it.
The advice about a regular attendance changing ones outlook is also true. Aspects of the NO which I had previously accepted without thinking – when largely ignorant about the faith – are now jarring to my sensibilities, if not actually offensive to me.
Recently, due to a holiday, I had cause to attend a vernacular mass for the first occasion in some time and – while it was not half as bad as some other vernacular masses I have attended – its great inferiority to the latin mass was supremely obvious to me.
In particular, I find the man-centered* nature of the NO – compared to the God centered latin mass – becomes very stark.
Cardinal Ratzinger once said the new mass often seems to be more about the community glorifying itself, than anything else. I completely understand what he meant by that.
(*maybe I should have said “person-centered”, no sexism here! haha!).
Ed
I take on board your previous comments, however at present I am happy with attending both rites of Mass. Even if I attended the TLM every Sunday, I would still have Mass in the Novus Ordo as a result of school commitments (weekly and also holy days of obligation).
Even if the current Priest of the diocesan TLM is ‘not a fan’, surely it’s a start that he is at least offering the Mass, and hopefully graces from this will transform him in the same way it did to the priest you mentioned in your post.
Interestingly you mentioned Fr Dunn, do you know if he will be returning to public ministry soon??
Just quickly for now, as I’m supposed to be elsewhere, Gabriel – I am so pleased to read your post and to see that (yet again) I’ve been proved right 🙂
Attending the TLM for an extended period of time, not spasmodically, does make a difference. Well, they say that humility is defined as having a true appreciation of oneself, and I sure do appreciate myself!
Nolite Timere,
You know, you drew me up short with your reminder that the diocesan priest whom I mentioned as not being a “fan” of the old rite will still, nevertheless, be obtaining graces from it. You are absolutely correct and I’m kicking myself for not thinking of that when I wrote the post. So, I’m now on the look out to get the better of you in another discussion: watch out!
I believe that Fr Dunn is enjoying his sabbatical and is looking forward to returning to ministry when the time comes. Kind of you to enquire.
It’s interesting how some people consider the Traditional Mass elitist. I find the opposite is true. At the Novus Ordo it’s the middle classes who have the advantage. They are the most confident, well-spoken, well-dressed and socially astute (read ‘pushy’). They are more suited to the busy-body lay-ministries: readers, ministers of Holy Communion etc.. All that talking and sign off peace business, it is most off-putting for many ordinary people. However, at the Traditional Mass everybody is on the same level. At my Traditional parish there is a broad social mix: lower, middle and upper. At the parish I used to go to just five minutes away, it is monopolised by just one social group, students and university educated professionals and their families.
Miles,
I’ve never heard of “lower class” – in Glasgow we call it “working class”.
Montini,
Too many errors in your daft posts to correct. God help you. Tell me this: what evidence do you have that the New Mass leads to growth? Traditional Seminaries are bursting at the seams. We can’t say the same for modern seminaries, which are closing down at an alarming rate.
Petrus,
Isn’t that the only type of class you have in Glasgow? (Joke)
Don’t worry, Catholic Convert, speaking as someone from a solid working class background, I take that as a compliment!
Amen brother!!! I’m working class lad a proud of it.
God bless you!!
In case Petrus thought differently, I would just like to make it known to everyone here that I am too, working class that is.
Miles,
I was sure you would be at least “upper class”. In fact, I’m sure I saw you in Downton Abbey!
lol
Whats all this about the working class?
You mean I have been worshipping among plebs?
Good Lord! What will the neighbours say!?
(HAHA – I am joking of course!)
That’s what I meant, Petrus. We call it working class everywhere. I used ‘lower’ in this case because it was stylistically better, and more euphonious than ‘working, middle and upper’ .
“More euphonius”
Ooooooooh! “working class”? You, Miles? Never!
In Glasgow the only time we use “euphonius” is if we’re asking someone if they are going to, she said in her middle class accent, call us on the telephone… i.e. “gonnae euphonius?”
I bet only the Glaswegians get that one 🙂
An if you wullnae phone is, am gonnae set aboot ye!
I get it Editor.
In my humble and unworthy opinion the TLM is actually as far from elitist as you can get. The entire congregation, the Priest included faces God and is in humble submission before Him, who is truly present on the Altar, whereas in Novus Ordo Masses the Mass is a funky celebration between the Priest and the people, facing each other, ignoring God so it seems. People at NO Masses are arrogant by being more concerned with hearing ‘pleasing and jazzy’ music. It is not elitist to submit to 500 years of traditions, quite the opposite.
The elitism of NO Masses is demonstrated in Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion- by whose authority to they administer Communion? It ain’t God’s. They show their arrogance and elitism by pretending to be something they are not, and never will be, and never can be- a Priest. If you want to administer the sacraments, get thee to a Seminary.
I agree Miles, I think the sign of peace, man, is weird. Shaking the hand of some people I’ve never met, it just freaks me out- not that I have anything against them- I’ve come to worship God, not to have a love in.
Gerragrip!!!!!
Really weird. Freaky. Traumatising.
The Sign of Peace is excruciating for people on the autism spectrum. It was hard enough for me, a borderline aspie.
Sanguine people love it. Being melancholic I found it nauseating.
I would have been more comfortable if instead of shaking hands you had to make the Vulcan salute. Without making eye contact of course, just rotating 360 in your place with you hand raised in the Vulcan manner. Yes, I would have found that easier. I know that sounds weird to a lot of people, but that’s just the way some people’s brains are wired.
In Solemn High Mass, the sacred ministers do not touch each other when making the sign of peace.
My friend once told me his favourite part of Mass was the S of P. *vomiting*
Miles,
I think you and I are brothers from another mother. We’re carbon copies.
I’ve got lots of them. You just might could be.
What sad life’s you lead. Our Lord touched the leper. What’s wrong with a handshakes or embrations?
Montini,
There’s nothing wrong with handshakes or embraces – it’s that old adage “time and place”, Sugar Plum. There’s a time and a place for everything and Mass isn’t the place to be wandering about shaking hands with folks. Time and place. Reflect.
Montini,
One of our occasional bloggers – Sixupman – has emailed this link for your benefit.
And his point is? This is clearly not right, but I’ve never attended a Mass like this. What is equally as bad is “traditional” priests using the homily to vent their anger and prejudice!
I agree the TLM is not elitist in the slightest. Enemies of the faith say that, to demonise the true mass and those who adhere to it.
If you take a step back to think, all of the criticisms of the TLM and the people who value it are invalid and – whats more – are usually the perfect description of those making the criticisms.
Look at the scorn Pope Francis and others have displayed, when it comes to those who look to tradition. And yet, I cannot imagine anyone with a more ideological, legalist, narrow-minded and intolerant outlook than modernist clergymen of a certain age.
“Liturgy is the articulation of our Faith. If we strangle our liturgical life with ‘outdated manners and forms, which even on the cultural level are no longer meaningful,’ then we also abort the growth of the life of Faith. ”
I’d like to ask Monsignor Loftus for evidence of the “growth of the life of Faith” since the Novus Ordo was introduced. I don’t think such evidence exists.
Whistleblower,
I keep hearing that we are entering a ‘new Springtime in the Church’. Er..well.. where is it. Why do liberals keep sticking their heads in the sand? Who was it that said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results?
Here’s a question for one and all – it was put to me by a reader not so long ago. He quoted the famous convert from Communism, Hamish Fraser, who apparently said that it was a sin to pay for the so-called Catholic papers (even then – some years ago!)
The reader’s question to me was this:
“Would it be a sin for me to take a bundle of the Catholic papers from the back of churches and bin them?”
Well, what do you think, folks. Having perused even this one article from the Scottish Catholic Observer…Would it be a sin?
In the case of Medjugorje propaganda, such things are a source of preternatural infestation. This is not an extreme statement, controversial yes, but considering that the phenomena evidently has the character of the diabolical, those things which promote it present a grave danger to souls.
I have said it before on this blog: An angel of God can do nothing unless God permits it. However, the Devil wants to play us. If we want to play with him, God respects our free will and he cannot prevent it. Likewise, when the competent ecclesiastical authority has warned us not to involve ourselves with demonic phenomena (which will certainly be the case with Medjugorje when the Apostolic See gives it’s forthcoming pronouncement of constat de non supernaturalitate – ‘a non-supernatural (i.e. preternatural) character has been determined’), if we ignore them it equates to consent, and we leave ourselves vulnerable to demonic possession, which is the extreme worst case scenario, but entirely possible.
I also believe that any decisive intervention from the Pope himself is extremely unlikely to dissuade the most hardened Medjugorje cultists, especially those for whom it is a lucrative source of income. I predict a small, heretical and occultic sect will be established, similar to the Church of El Palmar de Troya in spain (see link below). Such is already the case with Caritas of Birmingham, a former Medjugorje ‘apostolate’ in the United States.
So yes, chuck it. It’s evil.
What a bunch of dingbats.
Looks way more fun than that Bosnian rubbish though. Medj is soooo boring.
What a glaikit look he has on his face in this video.
Watching his antics on that video, he could have been Archbishop Tartaglia (enthralled) at a Catholic Truth conference but for the priest/bishop on his left taking a sneaky look at his watch half way through!
That guy looks like me after a visit to the pub on a Friday night!!!!
Yes, it’s a difficult one that – one cannot do evil that good may come of it, and one could argue that to remove the newspapers is an act of theft, so therefore not permissible . . . but on the other hand, what does Our Lord care more about – a few pieces of paper, or a soul who He has purchased by His Precious Blood, and who may be lost due to the error he absorbs from the Catholic papers?
I once mentioned something similar to a sound priest, as I regularly removed and destroyed swathes of Medjugorje propaganda from local churches. Far from rebuking me, he said it was ‘an apostolate’ !
Westminster Fly,
I’m glad you told us about that priest saying it was an apostolate – I have been thinking about this and I completely agree, because you wouldn’t let your children and friends loose where they could pick up porn or other bad reading, so why should the Catholic press be any different?
The Catholic Press are very much ruled by the Bishops of England and it is certain they have guidelines on what they can publish and not publish. When a politician wrote to you about fellow MP`s voting `according to their conscience` according to Vatican II, I wrote and others wrote to point out that what he was quoting in Vatican II applied to those outside the Church and not those within who had the revelation of Jesus and the authorititive teaching of the Church. But this is the real heresy that has destroyed the Church and has been used to oppose Rome by those who want a Church that fits into their lives rather than fitting their lives into the Church. Loftus and his mob have not interest in Faith nor Morals. The trouble with Pope Francis is that he is a very poor communicator and what he says can be interpreted in many ways. The little of what he says in his latest encyclical sums this up. I believe in a years time when the church has not changed and the synod is over without any change in the position of the divorced and remarried as far as receiving Communion is changed the pennny will drop at last and the Talbistas will be unable to claim Francis as their ally. At the moment they are in such a desperate state that they interpret or misinterpret most things in their own image and likeness. I was at a Latin Mass last week in my parish. Afterwards one of the congregation near my own age said “I would not like to go back to attending this Mass every Sunday. I pointed to the 5 young men under 25 and the 2 singing Gregorian chant and remarked that “They seem to think differently” A Community Vernacular Mass is a very comfortable Mass, it makes us feel at home, and we forget we should be there not for the Community but for the Sacrifice, for those who know that this is what it is about, and a great service of worship fot those who do not. What with all the people around you shaking your hand, it is a very human experience. And there is Tom and Sally with that wonderful ministry of giving out the host or the chalice, in fact in my parish we can have up to 6 of them, participating for the community. I must say I used to get angry with the noise before Mass and wondered why people would not sit down and pray – I then realised that that was the problem they did not know how to pray. A priest in a neighbouring parish has started ringing bells 5 minutes before he goes on the altar to cut down the noise, great some say, but I ask why doesn`t he teach them to pray. The young people have noticed all this and as they enter seminaries there will be more and more Tridentine Masses where Jesus and only Jesus is the centre of worship.
Can we be so sure that there will not be “any change in the position of the divorced and remarried as far as receiving Communion” at the forthcoming synod? What if the synod does make a non-infallible change to Church teaching? What will the Neo-Catholics do then?
The neo-Catholics will do what they’ve always done, and sell themselves out, like the spineless weaklings they are. I will ignore the Synod, as any sane person would. I don’t care what the Pope says about it- he can believe heresy (as he does) but he can’t force it on faithful non-Catholic catholic like me. I am in submission to the Pope only in faith and morals- and if he allows divorce etc, I’m still not able to support it because he is contradicting faith and morals, and is denying infallible dogmas of the Magisterium.
Personally, I think that because the neo-Catholics pride themselves on their supposed doctrinal ‘orthodoxy’, they will just pretend the Pope meant what he didn’t say and vice-versa, or pretend they can’t can’t hear what he is saying at all. This way they can continue to dodge reason and maintain their flimsy faith.
If the Synod’s recommendations intimated that divorced and remarried couples might receive Holy Communion in special and ambiguously defined circumstances if they were sincere and their conscience told them so (that’s my prediction what’ll be said), even if it didn’t say outright that it was morally licit, then the neo-Cats would say the media had distorted the Popes words, or whatever. Excuse after excuse. Denial. Insanity.
Our Lady of Quito predicted that the sacrament of matrimony will be attacked. Perhaps this refers to the synod among other things?
I totally agree- these people make it up as they go along. I personally am sick to death of telling liberal atheist weirdos at Uni what the Pope meant to say. I’m sure you have the same problem.
Have only just read the latest Basil Loftus effusion – our paper was late. What an arrogant (select your own expletive) that man is. ‘Concession’, indeed. Although I attend the NO Mass, I thought Pope Benedict was absolutely right to bring back the TLM as an alternative form. It had served the Church well for hundreds of years, and should never have been banned in the first place. What’s wrong with having two forms of the Mass in a universal Church, for heaven’s sake?
Pipsqueak* Loftus doesn’t count, fortunately. His following is local. However, there are ominous signs that Pope Francis is starting to think along the same lines. Not good.
I had to laugh at Loftus’s statement that the Pope wants readings to be cut down because we poor mortals have only short-span concentration. This Pope is the most garrulous and confusing that we have ever experienced, and my own concentration on his wall of words gave way long ago.
PS *Editor, sorry if I shouldn’t have used this insult, and it needs to be expunged.
Pew Catholic,
What insult?
The following might be of interest to bloggers.
I was in York a couple of weeks ago and went to St Wilfred’s parish church (right beside the minister) to check out Mass times. Imagine my surprise to find that one of the Sunday Masses was the old Latin Mass. Then I discovered that there are 3 such Masses every Sunday in parishes in York. I spoke to the priest and it turned out that he, and another Oratory Father, had only taken up residence in the last fortnight. This was at the request of the Bishop of Middlesbrough, Bishop Drainey, that they take over the running of St. Wilfred’s, establish an Oratory there and provide especially the old Mass. This Bishop is clearly a very pastoral one.
This begs the question of why the Scottish Bishops are so hostile to this Mass. To my knowledge there is very little Sunday provision (except by the Society of St Peter in Edinburgh and the Mass at Sacred Heart in Glasgow) of the old Mass in the whole of Scotland! One wonders what this is all about? Surely any Mass is better than closing down churches especially when there is a community of monks in Scotland willing to supply?
Praise God in His infinite mercy!!!! Hallelujah!!!!
I love St Wilfred’s in York, and love the old Altar. I really hope they’ve taken the new Altar out and smashed the thing up. To quote Prince Charles- ‘it was a poisonous carbuncle on the face of an old friend’.
*Alleluia
The ‘H’ version is rather somewhat Protestantish. Sorry for being a pedant.
Sorry about the mistake old cock.
I was in St Wilfreds last Sunday – a lovely building, but sadly the newer altar is still there!
Gabriel Syme,
Do you live in York? I’m a Huddersfieldite.
Maybe the Scottish bishops don’t wish to annoy the protest ants.
“To my knowledge there is very little Sunday provision (except by the Society of St Peter in Edinburgh and the Mass at Sacred Heart in Glasgow) of the old Mass in the whole of Scotland! One wonders what this is all about? Surely any Mass is better than closing down churches especially when there is a community of monks in Scotland willing to supply?”
The monks you mentioned are now saying monthly Masses in Lerwick and Aberdeen where, surprise surprise, the SSPX and Fr Nicholas Mary also say Mass. The FSSP have monthly Masses in Stirling and St. Andrews.
Vianney,
Are there not enough monks at Papa Stronsay to say a weekly Mass in Aberdeen and Shetland? There’s already a resident SSPX priest in Stronsay so the few people who attend the monks’ Mass there could attend that Mass and leave the monks free to serve Aberdeen and Shetland. Surely that would be a better use of the monks’ time?
Montini.
I answered your criticism regarding the Rosary two times above. It vanished both times after posting and the blog moderator(s) seem to have been unable to retrieve it. Here is roughly what I said:
The praying of the Holy Rosary during Mass is an ancient and venerable custom, indeed, it was the method of assisting at Holy Mass most preferred by Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, whereby one unites oneself with the affections and intentions of Our Sorrowful Mother on Calvary whilst meditating upon the Passion and Death of Her son, the Sacrificial Victim of the Mass, which is truly renewed upon the Altar in an un-bloody manner.
Evidently, this wouldn’t make sense to the average Novus Ordo attendee since the character of sacrifice and sacrality have been greatly diminished, if not obliterated in many places. Do you even believe the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice offered in satisfaction for our sin? Do you believe it is the meeting of heaven upon earth, where the real, physical substantial presence of Our Lord is adored in the company of all the angels and saints in heaven? Do you believe that you kneel next to Our Blessed Mother at the Foot of the Cross, not symbolically, but in reality? Do you believe the Holy Rosary is the greatest and most efficacious prayer after the Mass itself?
A great number of people find the constant responses in the Novus Ordo a distraction to their pious contemplation of these Sacred Mysteries.
Editor, three times now my response to Montini has vanished after posting. Could you please retrieve it.
Perhaps that’s God’s will…………reflect!!
Miles Immaculatae,
I have checked both moderation queue and spam box and there are no posts from you in there at all. It looks like you’ve accidentally deleted them. It’s wise to keep copying your post if it’s lengthy in case of such blips.
Comments are closed.