New Bishop of Paisley to bring Pope Francis’ “Vision” to Paisley – Help!editor
Pope Francis has today (Saturday 8 February 2014) appointed Fr John Keenan, as Bishop of Paisley.
The Diocese of Paisley has been vacant since September 2012, when Bishop Philip Tartaglia became Archbishop of Glasgow. Fr David Boyd has been the Administrator of the Diocese in the interim.
Reacting to the announcement, Bishop-Elect Keenan said; “While nervous at my appointment, I have been very uplifted at the congratulations and good wishes I have received so far which have given more confidence. Everyone I speak to says Paisley is a wonderful diocese with good priests and people full of faith. I am looking forward to being with my brother priests, many of whom I already know really well, and getting to know the people and the parishes of the diocese. I hope just to settle in and listen a lot.”
“At the same time I leave Glasgow with a heavy heart. I have loved my priesthood there from the very beginning and know I have family and many friends who will continue supporting me. This is an exciting time in the Church under Pope Francis’ lively leadership and I hope to put as much of his vision into my own personal life and ministry as I can. I know many people in Paisley and Glasgow will be praying for me and I thank them very much.”
Welcoming the appointment of his successor, Archbishop Tartaglia said; “I welcome the appointment of Father John Keenan as Bishop of Paisley. As Archbishop of Glasgow, I am glad that a priest of the Archdiocese has been named by Pope Francis as Bishop of Paisley. Father Keenan has been a much-loved and respected Parish Priest, and an inspirational Catholic Chaplain to Glasgow University (Turnbull Hall). His appointment gives me a huge headache in trying to replace him. But, in the Church, when one part of the body is made stronger, the whole body benefits. So, in this case, Paisley’s delight is Glasgow’s joy, and I am certain that Fr Keenan will be a fine bishop for Paisley.
As a former of Bishop of Paisley, I am very happy that the Diocese of Paisley now has a new Bishop. It’s a great diocese and very supportive of its bishops. Bishop-Elect John Keenan can expect a warm and heartfelt welcome throughout the diocese. I was very happy as Bishop of Paisley and I am sure he will be too.
And as President of the Bishops’ Conference of Scotland, along with my brother-bishops, I will be delighted to welcome our new colleague to the Bishops’ Conference. We know that John is a very gifted priest, and we look forward with anticipation to his contribution as a bishop to the work of the Conference.”
Commenting on the appointment, Fr David Boyd said:
“I was absolutely delighted to hear that the Holy Father, Pope Francis, had nominated as bishop of Paisley Diocese Fr. John Keenan. Over the past seventeen months since Archbishop Tartaglia left for Glasgow we have been praying at many masses in our diocese for, “a pastor who will please you by his holiness and to show us watchful care”. I am certain that in Bishop Elect John Keenan, that prayer has been answered. On behalf of Bishop Emeritus John Mone, the priests and deacons and lay faithful of the Diocese of Paisley, I can assure Bishop Elect John a very warm welcome and the assurance of our prayers and support. Over the past seventeen months, as Administrator, I have been taken aback time and time again by the support, energy and good will of all the clergy and people of this Diocese. I am certain that Bishop Elect John will also experience this and that we will hopefully make him feel at home very quickly”. Click on photo for source.
We extend our very best wishes to Fr Keenan, on his appointment as Bishop of Paisley. The key question for war-weary Catholics, however, is this: are we going to hear the sound of the fire engines any time soon? Is Fr Keenan likely to set the heather on fire?
I think this is good news. I don’t think he is anti-tradition, like so many others.
Well for a start he’s been on the Chartre pilgrimage
That is good news.
“Well for a start he’s been on the Chartre pilgrimage”
Ah, but in which direction did he walk, from Chartre to Paris or from Paris to Chartre? Which way you walk defines the type of Traditionalist you are.
Oh don’t be so ridiculous. That’s pure spiritual snobbery.
It might be worth looking at the fact that the deputy of the SSPX told a group of priests on priests recently on retreat to stop the infighting with groups like the FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King and to accept that they’re good orders doing good work.. Perhaps you ought to listen to him.
No-one you know,
I think Vianney is obviously joking. He does that a lot, I’ve noticed!
Who’s the deputy of the SSPX? I only know about Bishop Fellay since he sacked the controversial one (Bishop Williamson).
It’s not one of the bishops. It was in the remnant
Bishop Fellay has a First Assistant and I think two other assistants.
Oh dear, did Santa forget to leave you a sense of humour?
Joanna Bogle goes on the Chartres Pilgrimage. I wouldn’t call her a traditionalist.
Fr. Keenan told pupils at St. Paul’s Academy on December 10th 2012 that he had invited a pupil-musician to play his instrument at Mass and that the attendance had since doubled as a result.
Another pupil said to him that the added numbers were not there to hear his sermons, but to hear the music. Fr. Keenan thought it was a wonderful thing for the musician to be sharing his talents by playing music at Mass, and he urged pupils to do what they could to help each other and to share.
If this is the attitude Fr. Keenan is bringing with him to Paisley as a new bishop, then I cannot hold out much hope for your wish that he is going to set the heather on fire with calls to the faithful to put God at the centre of their lives.
When one of our readers used to ring Fr Keenan in his capacity of chaplain at the University of Glasgow to complain about dissenters being brought into the chaplaincy to address audiences, his reply was consistently “sympathetic” (i.e. lip-service, hence his reputation for orthodoxy) quickly followed by the lament: “But what can I do about it?”
Well, he can do plenty about dissent now. Let’s see if he does. Just don’t hold your breath.
VERY interesting about the music at Mass – I hadn’t heard that before. Speaks volumes. I doubt very much if we’ll be hearing the sound of ecclesiastical fire engines in Paisley, as a result of this appointment. I doubt it very much indeed, sadly.
Is it ‘contemporary’ music or the Gregorian chant?
You being far too quick to judge. I know of many many traditionalist priests who have done select Mass settings (such as settings by Mozart) and then advertised it as a ‘liturgical performance of’. The idea being that they might be moved by the music in such as way so as to ask deeper questions, it’s called evangelisation through beauty.
Perhaps Fr was simply, hoping that people might well come for the music, but might be touched by it, that, seeing as grace perfects nature (St Thomas Aquinas) it may have allowed a way for God in.
On a side note, this is a very good appointment for the Scottish Church. Fr Keenan is a very visionary priest, and highly intelligent, something needed after decades of none too bright figures.
Sure, he’s no traditionalist, he’s not going to be installing the Cathedral altar rails. But I’ll tell you what he won’t do. If a priest says the Old Mass he’s not going to be breathing down their neck. If a priest wants to reintroduce his altar rails he’s not going to get a curt letter telling him to stop. This, coupled with the current generation of priests coming out of the seminary very interested in tradition (with both a big and little T) spells a slow but sure renewal in Catholic identity and worship. If one of these young priests tries to do something traditional, he’s not going to stop them. And that’s all that is necessary
The fact is that when something is destroyed (as has happened) it takes a long time to build it back up again. For the majority of people, all they attend is a badly celebrated Novus Ordo. If the Novus Ordo can be correctly celebrated (Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and in the mouth, etc.) then this is a small step towards the Catholicisation of Catholic worship. It means, also, that when one day the TLM is bought back into widespread use, it will be easier for the laity to adapt to it. With a Bishop like this, this is something, that with younger priests and those sympathetic to tradition, that can happen
I hope you are correct. I think you are.
I was interested to read your idea of a ‘proper’ Novus Ordo- Ad Orientem, Latin, altar rails. I know they do it this way in Opus Dei, but do you think Archbishop Lefebvre would have ‘broken away’ if it had been done properly?
By properly, I simply mean as closely as to the traditional Mass as possible. Obviously the Pauline missal has deficiencies, as Pope Benedict noted. However, when people who don’t like, or say they struggle with the Old Mass, the reasons are usually Latin, the priest ‘has his back to the people’, and some other things. Obviously the Pauline missal actually intended these things, and thus if done properly it can be a useful step back to the TLM.
No-one you know & Catholic Convert,
I can’t see the point of a priest saying Mass ad orientem, if he is saying the prayers in the vernacular.
Ad orientem orientates the priest towards Christ – the way he should be!
That’s right. But why face towards Christ and speak to him in the language of the people behind you. As has been explained many times on this blog, there has always been a special language for worship. In the days of Christ, it was Hebrew in the synagogue and Aramaic in the ordinary everyday life of the Jews. If the priest is facing Christ then he should be speaking in Latin, the official language of the Church, surely? Otherwise, he might as well be facing the people.
Actually I do see your point but it is rare these days to see priests understand why they should orientate themselves to Christ. Your point earlier did not recognise this point.
Well a couple of reasons, firstly because it emphasises the eschatological and cosmic elements of the Mass. Secondly, because it emphasises that the Mass isn’t about the people, but about God. Thirdly, because it isn’t distracting for the priest. Many priests I’ve spoken to say that Mass facing the people for them is massively distracting.
Plus I don’t know if you’ve been to a NO said ad orientem. But it does make a huge difference, so less distracting.
As I said above, it doesn’t seen right to speak in the vernacular with your back to the people.
I haven’t seen that at a novus ordo but I would find it very puzzling to see a priest speaking in English with his back to me. I find it makes much more sense to see him with his back to the people speaking to God in the official worship language.
Well frankly because even if he is using the vernacular (something that needs to end quickly in the Roman Rite, or at least restricted big time) the prayers are still said to God.
Remember that some of the eastern rites use the vernacular language, but they’ve, like us, always been said Eastward facing
Would those be the schismatic eastern rites?
No, the Catholic eastern rites
This is a reply to No-one You Know at 10.09pm
What is the name of the Catholic easterns who use the vernacular. I thought they all had their own liturgical languages.
I think the Ukrainian Catholics and some Melkite Catholics use the vernacular.
“I think the Ukrainian Catholics and some Melkite Catholics use the vernacular.”
So do the Syro-Malabar Caatholics.
No-one you know,
Sorry, but the laity adapted to the destruction of the Mass overnight, so they can jolly well adapt to the restoration in jig time too. We’ve had quite enough of pandering to the sensitivities of the faithless, whether it be “prudent” priests who, truth be told, simply go along to get along (and it sure paid off in Fr Keenan’s case) or lay people who don’t want to give up their privileged positions as EMHC or official (daft) welcomers, or whatever the latest fad happens to be when the restoration begins.
We need a bishop who will not waste time “building relationships” and “listening” to every Tom, Dick and Roseanne Reddy (she’ll be over the moon this evening, no question about it.) The relationships will soon be built up when the people – especially hitherto disaffected Catholics – see a bishop acting like a bishop; that is, acting with authority and out of concern for the Faith and not for popular opinion.
Much as I wish him well, and sincerely hope that he proves me wrong, I can’t see that longed for reforming bishop being Fr John Keenan. That he may not be the worst possible appointment is akin to being grateful that your new doctor correctly diagnosed your flu symptoms. 😯
I have no idea why Sr Roseanne gets a special mention, but it sounds as if she has displeased you in some way. But then who hasn’t?
I fail to see how a Bishop or anyone else can do his job without building relationships and listening. If Fr Keenan phones you for advice I hope you will tell him you are not going to encourage him to listen.
Sr Roseanne Reddy hasn’t “displeased (me) in some way” – she astounded me in a very particular way when she announced to the world in the Edinburgh Evening News that we really have to stop calling abortion “murder” else the media will think we’re “nuts”.
Given that she called her “Order” (if such it is, it must be the slowest growing Order in the world!) after the papal encyclical “The Gospel of Life” in which Pope John Paul II said “now, more than ever, we must call things by their proper name…. abortion is murder” that was a tad “displeasing” to put it mildly. She only got a special mention, as you put it, in a previous comment of mine because she’s into the Faith movement and, I have no doubt, is a pal of Fr Keenan’s. Me? Jealous? What makes you think that? Meeeeeeeow 😀
Fr Keenan won’t be phoning me for advice. YOU’RE more likely to phone me for advice. And we both know that ain’t gonna happen 🙄
Aren’t we scrapping around in the bottom of the barrel a bit when we delight in the possibility of a bishop who wont stop a priest re-instating altar rails?
He is the new apostle, the new bishop, he should be leading by example and instructing the faithful by his words and deeds. Surely?
The Scottish bishops are a dreadful lot, non-inspirational, lacking in courage, lacking in leadership, lacking in example. The catechesis they expound is just so poor.
Almighty God have mercy on Scotland. Amen
He is the new apostle, the new bishop, he should be leading by example and instructing the faithful by his words and deeds. Surely
Give the man a chance. He probably hasn’t even been measured for his mitre yet.
You ought to know enough by now to know that if Fr Keenan were remotely of the “traditional” mould, he wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a mitre, never mind end up being measured for one.
I am just saying that the Scottish bishops are a dreadful lot. They appear to do everything they can to weaken the faith in Scotland. They promote lay people on the sanctuary, they promote lay people acting as if they really are ministers ( which they are not) – distributing the Blessed Sacrament at Mass.
They promote such poor catechesis for children. They promote children leaving the Mass to go draw pictures….need I go on Eileenanne?
( because I can),
I am just not prepared to be the Catholic peasant to the clergy anymore. I have been lied to long enough.
I think Fr Keenan should be given time.
Scotland is in such a morass of ignorance of what the Catholic faith really teaches . I am constantly amazed at how Protestant are the beliefs of Mass goers who are not even aware of the fact that they have assimilated these beliefs, having been led that way for many years now.
People balk at change! Only holiness, persistance, and hard work on the part of priests leads people to re-discover the way back.
Having seen almost nothing but heretical priests in the past twenty years, personally I am tentatively —— very tentatively ——- beginning to see a glimmer of hope in the new younger priests who seem to know what the priesthood is really about.
I do not know why this should be, and maybe it is just in my part of the world, or maybe I am fortunate at last!
” Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” I think things have to be steadied at first and then slowly, changes made.
If Fr Keenan is orthodox, his views will be transmitted ” —- caught “; doors will open that were previously slammed shut
So I will give him a chance.
This is the best thing I’ve read all day. Thank you
Yes, please give Fr Keenan a chance. He is a good, holy man who prays with his people.
It’s a funny kind of “holiness” which promotes a hoax shrine like Medjugorje and doesn’t think it’s God’s will for everyone to be members of the one, true Church of Christ. “Holiness” like that you’ll find in any pagan temple.
“I think Fr Keenan should be given time.”
So do I. In fact, I think all the bishops should be given time – about twenty years 🙄
I think Fr Keenan is one of the Faith priests, and Faith promotes evolution. That’s enough for me to think it’s not the best possible appointment. Having said that, I wish him well and hope he proves to be a good bishop.
Firstly, Fr Keenan by all accounts hasn’t been to Faith for years, from what I’ve heard. Secondly, a Catholic can believe in evolution, as Ven. Pius XII and Bl. John Paul II said. Thirdly, many of those priests involved with Faith, from those I either I have met personally or know through others, do not necessarily sign up to the whole of their vision (which is primarily based around the theology of Bl.John Dun Scotus, who seems increasingly vindicated in that Bl. Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate conception, which Scotus defended against St Thomas Aquinas) but go because the Faith conference, from what I’ve seen, offers orthodox catechises in sexuality, true Eucharistic piety (and thus heavily promotes Confession), etc and want the people whom they take with them to get it too. And let’s face it, where else are the orthodox priests coming from. I’m not a huge fan of Faith, but there’s a good reason why the liberals hate them
I would be surprised if Faith is completely orthodox in matters of sexuality. Most Catholics today are in the Natural Family Planning mentality, as pointed out in the excellent article by Christopher Gawley in this month’s Catholic Truth. If Faith took the traditional teaching of the Church seriously on birth control, they wouldn’t be as popular as they are. It’s a sign of the times that the Faith priests are regarded as the orthodox priests nowadays when the fact is they’re not publicly attacking Catholic doctrine. That’s a bit low to set the bar, IMHO.
I have spoken to their numerous priests on sexual ethics and they are always careful when talking about NFP to remind people of the rules that Pius XII. And most Catholics today aren’t in an NFP mentality, they’re in a contraceptive mentality.
And I don’t get this idea of where they’re popular from. The old Bishops of Scotland (Conti, O’Brien, Logan, et al) hated them. They were viewed by all accounts a conservative wackos. Now, some of the hierarchy today (but by no means all) are somewhat friendly towards them.
No-one you know,
Have any of the Faith priests been learning the old rite Mass because as far as I know none of them are saying that Mass anywhere in the central belt.
I think they are low profile to keep from being unpopular with the bishops.
Of the Scot’s ones, there’s a couple who I know that are either very sympathetic, want to learn it but haven’t got time too (due to priest shortages, or have learnt. There is a problem of the Bishops obviously being unfriendly towards it, and also because of the lack of Scots Catholics who are attracted to the traditional Mass. The LMS in England has it right re how to spread the TLM.
Of the English priests, they’re either sympathetic, are wanting to learn to say, or, indeed, the majority do say it,
At least from those I’ve been introduced to
When I lived in England, having had Faith sold to me as totally orthodox and “conservative”, I went along with some friends to one of their meetings. The speaker was a well known priest who was (is) considered to be completely orthodox.
The hall was filled with young people, and there were plenty of priests scattered throughout the hall, including some young priests of the Faith movement.
A number of eyebrow raising remarks were made but none more so than the response to a question from the floor towards the end of the session. A young student asked the priest speaker if he thought the hierarchy were disobedient/is there a crisis in the Church. The priest (largely a go along to get along type) asked for the tape recorder to be switched off and then said “yes” – the hierarchy are disobedient and there is a crisis in the Church. So far would be so good except for the fact that he didn’t excommunicate these same disobedient (to Rome) bishops, while he castigated the “schismatic” SSPX but don’t start me on that. What he said next is the real shocker.
The young questioner then asked, if the bishops are disobedient/Church in crisis, does that mean that the Holy Spirit may choose to work through another denomination, say the Baptists?
Utterly incredibly, this priest replied “yes” – the Holy Spirit may do that.
Now, I waited to see which of these several “Faith” priests, with a reputation for orthodoxy, if not holiness, would correct this false teaching. The young Faith priest who was chairing the meeting certainly showed no desire to do so. On the contrary, he wanted to move the meeting on to the next stage.
I then felt obliged to raise my hand and ask if I could say something about what Father had said…. at which the guest speaker acknowledged me by saying “it’s what I said about the Holy Spirit and other denominations, isn’t it” (sagely nodding his head – but not correcting himself.)
I then explained what the problem with that was, and do you know how the wonderfully orthodox priest-chairman reacted?
“Why don’t you two” (myself and guest speaker) carry on this discussion afterwards?”
He had absolutely no clue that I didn’t need to discuss it with anybody. He had no clue that the young students who had attended his daft meeting because they had been led to believe they would hear only orthodoxy, had heard heresy. He had even less clue that this had to be corrected before those students left that hall and went in search of the nearest Protestant minister.
I’ve had no time for the Faith movement since then. It’s far from being part of the solution to the crisis in the Church – indeed, it’s a major part of the problem because it is leading people into a false sense of security.
Members of the Faith movement are victims of the same impoverished religious education as the rest of the Catholic population today. They may not be blatant “liberals” but they are going along with the Vatican II revolution. They are complicit, in other words, in the destruction of the Church and should not be promoted as part of the solution when, very plainly, they are not. That’s not to say there are not good, well-meaning priests and people in their ranks but let’s just hope and pray that they see the light sooner rather than later. The last thing we need are more bishops appointed who are promoting, on the one hand, the “vision” of Pope Francis, and on the other, the “vision” of Agnes Holloway. Saints preserve us 🙄
No-one you know, (if you don’t mind I’m going to reduce this to NYK in future)
Your post on the Faith movement surprises me since nobody can decided not to “sign up” to something “essential” to any movement of which they claim to be a supporter…
FROM THE FAITH WEBSITE:
Inspiration and identity of the Faith Movement
4. The essential mark of the Faith Movement is a new synthesis of contemporary Science and divine Revelation which re-vindicates the primacy of Jesus Christ over all creation, throughout history, culture and society, and within the individual mind, heart and body. This new synthesis arises out of the principles outlined by Agnes Holloway (in her book God’s Master Key: The Law of Control and Direction) and more fully elaborated by her son Fr. Edward Holloway (in his book Catholicism a New Synthesis and other writings).
5. It was her claim, in all simplicity, that these principles were given to her as divine promptings and locutions. No one is obliged to accept or reject the spiritual claim behind these ideas. That judgment is ultimately referred to the highest Magisterium of the Church. However the vision of Christ and of his work presented by Agnes and Edward Holloway is always to remain central to the Faith Movement – indeed it is its sole identity and reason for existing. END. Source
The Agnes Holloway nonsense is at the heart of the Faith movement. That there are so many priests who take the whole thing seriously, just speaks of the need to restore solid formation and education in seminaries. No wonder there isn’t a seminary left on Scottish soil. Having had seminaries which produced priests who drink in the Agnes Holloway “vision” hook line and sinker would be depressing in the extreme if there weren’t already a bunch of other stuff to depress us in the Church today.
Oops, is that the time? I should be out pubbing and clubbing…
No One you know,
You are correct. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine about the truth ot falsehood of evolution. Catholics are free to accept whatever scientific argument seems credible to them so long as we beileve that God created the world out of nothing. His exact method and timing are not part of Church teaching.
I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you suggest. Belief in evolution leads in the end to belief in polygenism, which definitely is condemned by the Church. We must believe that humans are descended from two parents, one male, one female, and that is at odds with the theory of evolution, to the best of my understanding.
Yes you’re correct. Polygenism is condemned by Pius XII, in the encyclical Humani Generis.
Evolutionary theory presents some significant philosophical problems when reconciled with Catholic doctrine. This is why I find the ‘theistic evolution’ position incoherent.
Theology aside, evolution by itself is a theory in scientific trouble.
This is my favourite theological argument against evolution, most appropriate for today, being the feast day of Our Lady of Lourdes:
If evolution is true then Adam was conceived in the womb of a creature. This would have occurred before the Fall, therefore Adam would have been immaculately conceived. However, Our Lady of Lourdes says that She is the Immaculate Conception: “Je suis l’Immaculée Conception”. Therefore, Adam was not conceived. Rather, his form was directly created by God and infused with an immortal soul. In which case evolution didn’t occur. At least not for humans.
Who thinks that argument is beautiful? I got it from the Kolbe Centre website.
Yes, I think that is a terrific argument against evolution. WOW ❗
I’ve emailed Fr. Keenan. Here goes:
‘Dear Reverend Father,
I am sending you this email to extend to you my warmest congratulations and prayers upon your elevation by the Holy Father to the See of Paisley. Because of this auspicious appointment, and as a gesture of love and goodwill to traditionalists, would you consider celebrating a Pontifical High Mass on a regular basis in the Diocesan Cathedral, in order to bring about unity and reconciliation between Catholics? I hope that you will take my views into account and I look forward to receiving a reply.
Antonio Ghislieri (a pseudonym)
Let’s he gives me a solid reply, or just weasel words, as I’ve had so many times.
Asking for a pontifical Mass is a bit much, isn’t it? Start slow. Ask if he might consider a regular Mass said by a local priest or priest of a society dedicated to the Old Liturgy. Remember you need the numbers too. Having a Mass is all well and good, but it’s difficult to justify (to those not traditionalist, which he will) having an extra Mass when there’s a shortage of priests if no one is there.
I agree with that.
Yes, Editor said that to me in a private email. I should have asked for a Low Mass.
Let us All pray for the newly appointed bishop of Paisley, perhaps a few Rosary’s on the bishops behalf, that He will be guided by the Holy Spirit to guide the Diocese and church in accordance with the Will of Almighty God and for the benefit of all those souls for whom He is now responsible.
Lets leave the usual criticisms and ‘I know better’ attitude which is so prevalent on this blog behind in offering this man prayers and support in the task ahead of him.
And really, isn’t it time you did something about that “I know better” attitude? Like, yesterday? 😀 😀 😀
Clearly you all have far to much time on your hands, he has even been installed yet and the knives are out give him a chance to find his voice as bishop before you judge but from what I’ve read on this site you are all ready to cast the first stone.
How uncharitable. Far from having too much time on our hands, some of us would be struggling to fit in everything if God changed His mind and gave us a 34 hour day.
As for “The knives are out to get him”… Are you for real? Are you one of these folk who say that we have to have an “adult faith” we must not just accept everything unquestionably? Or only when it suits you?
Please don’t attack us for doing what any intelligent Catholic must do in the midst of a crisis in the Church – examine the kind of episcopal appointments being made to see if there is any sign of help coming to us from Rome. There isn’t.
I said early on that if Fr Keenan proves me wrong, I will be the first to say so, with delight. So far, though, those who know him personally or have had personal exchanges with him, tell me that he’s about as traditional as a mobile phone.
True to form editor: ‘ You know better’ !!!
As someone who knows Fr Keenan personally, I’m more than a little upset by all this, “Oh, I heard XYZ about him – I bet this just proves he’s not going to be a good bishop.”
Most of the people criticising him – if not all of them – have obviously never met him in their lives. It’s all just hearsay and speculation.
Fr John Keenan is the man who sacrifices his evening off every week so he can give talks and celebrate Mass with the students. He’s the man who’s not afraid to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, even when it leads to criticism and penalties from the university (who believe it or not, seem to have forgotten the fact they were once a Catholic university). And for months now, while I’ve been struggling with problems in my own life, he’s been one of the only ones I’ve been able to talk to – always happy to give advice, or just a shoulder to cry on.
Congratulations to Fr John! I know of no better man for the position, and I wish him all the best.
I was speaking to someone only this morning who knows Fr Keenan, and, like you, used to think the world of him. Didn’t stop him from opining that he’s not going to set the heather on fire in Paisley. Indeed, if there were the slightest chance that Fr Keenan was the sound, “traditional leaning” priest of popular Glasgow myth, he’d have had about as much chance of being made a bishop in Scotland as Leprechaun would have of being elected President of Ireland (no offence, Leprechaun!)
However, I’m very interested in your perspective. The idea that those of us who don’t know Fr Keenan personally have no right to comment on his appointment as a bishop, is intriguing, to say the least. For of all the letters and emails I get from people who hate everything I stand for (quoting directly) none of them know me personally. Including Chasdom, who, while expressing contempt for “this blog” every five minutes on the one hand, thinks nothing of using it to insult me, personally, and any of the bloggers who happen to annoy him with their Catholic perspective on life, on the other hand. Ditto other visitors to this site.
As for your claim that Fr Keenan is “not afraid to speak the truth of the Catholic faith” – absolute baloney.
I’ve already described how he told our researcher on more than one occasion that he was sorry about these dissidents using the chaplaincy to spread heresy etc. but “what can I do about it?” Oh yes, a real martyr for the Faith – NOT! Let’s see how he deals with dissenters in Paisley now that there is absolutely no question of what he can do about it. Will the new Bishop of Paisley mean the Death of Dissent in that diocese? Excuse me if my cynicism is showing, but I doubt it.
Fr Keenan would not have been appointed a bishop in Scotland unless he’s been playing the Modernist game. The point has been made that he won’t bother any priest who wants to learn the Traditional Latin Mass etc. Shucks thanks. But he’s also remarked that he would not like to return to what the Church was like pre-Vatican II (you know the one, packed churches, packed seminaries, packed convents and monasteries, packed parish mission weeks for men and packed parish mission weeks for women, not a child abuse scandal in sight; priests who dressed like priests and nuns who dressed like nuns – you name it. THAT pre-Vatican II Church).
So, allow me to disagree with your every word – profoundly. I repeat. If Fr Keenan were remotely of the calibre of solid Catholic priest that his friends and fans imagine, he would not be going anywhere near a mitre. He’s being welcomed with open arms by his soon-to-be brother bishops. Go figure.
It has come to the stage where, not only should lay “ministers” of the Church have to make a public declaration that they believe and uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church and are faithful to the Magesterium, but also priests and bishops.
There’s a big hullabaloo over the German bishops, but they are only saying out loud what most priests and bishops in all of the UK and Ireland are actually doing, Sunday after Sunday, namely doling out Holy Communion to people they know are in irregular relationships, don’t attend regularly and don’t go to confession, in fact who often brazenly say it’s the Church which should change its rules, or who just don’t know because they’ve been led to believe anything goes.
Well said. I had cause this week to email yet another parish priest who has scandalised one of our readers by giving Holy Communion to a man who, under Canon 915, should be treated to an explanation as to why living with his “domestic partner” kind of muddies the waters somewhat in terms of his communion with the Lord.
To date, no reply. I wouldn’t be surprised if next time I hear his name, it’ll be in an announcement from the Scottish Catholic Media Office that he’s been appointed Bishop of Motherwell.
Am I a bad girl, or what? Rhetorical question. Strictly 😀
Why Editor, I didn’t know you cared so much as to give me a special mention in one of you rants. I am honoured that you think so much of me that I occupy so much of your time!!!!!! Instead of being part of the problem, eg crisis in the church, change tack and become part of the solution; You will find coming to accept Jesus Christ as your LORD AND saviour SUCH A FREEING SPIRIT FILLED EXPERIENCE BRINGING YOU SUCH JOY. Go on give your life over to Jesus and never look back.
Editor: now, why didn’t I think of that ❗ Shucks, thanks Chasdom…
ps – you didn’t think you occupied so much of my time? Really. WOW! I think about you all the time, Chasdom. All the time 😀
You write like a Protestant. Are you a Catholic?
Therese; I am child of God, a member of the Royal Priesthood through Jesus Christ! An heir to HIS kingdom.
That’s what I thought you thought.
Therese Clearly You have a visionary nature, to know what I think, must be careful in my thought process, wouldn’t want to frighten you!!
Nobody needs a crystal ball to read your mind.
Now, stick to the topic. Any more of these daft personal jibes will be deleted.
Please don’t respond to him. He’s a few sandwiches short of a picnic 🙄
I love your description of the Pre Vatican 11 church ! Spot on.
I forgot “large families”… !
He’s the man who’s not afraid to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, even when it leads to criticism and penalties from the university
That’s not entirely accurate, actually. He was un-invited from the annual Freshers speech by the Student Representative council. That’s all. The SRC are very pro-gay. In fact, if I look out of the window, right now the SRC have hoisted a rainbow flag up the main building flag pole. He lost favour with them, not because of anything he said per se, but rather simply because he is a Catholic priest. The SRC are sanctioning him to protest the church, not to vilify him as such. The SRC are independent, and these measures had nothing to do with the university government. The university wouldn’t criticize the chaplaincy like this in an official capacity because they depend on the use of archdiocesan property for teaching space. Likewise, Archbishop Conti’s honorary degree was blocked after petitioning from the SRC in protest of the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality. Even if he had said nothing publicly about homosexuality, he still wouldn’t have received an honorary degree.
Fr John Keenan is the man who sacrifices his evening off every week so he can give talks and celebrate Mass with the students.
I know Father Keenan is diligent, and I commend him for it. But it’s not that extraordinary. That’s his job. That’s why he is celibate. A father and mother must take their evenings off to look after their children.
And for months now, while I’ve been struggling with problems in my own life, he’s been one of the only ones I’ve been able to talk to – always happy to give advice, or just a shoulder to cry on.
I believe you. But it isn’t prudent to form a view of someone’s interior character based on their outward personality. Fr Keenan is approachable and gregarious and he is professionally pastoral, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he has superior human skills.
This is true for anybody, whether they are Catholic or not. One keeps a safe emotional distance from everybody, including your friends. If you idolise somebody, it doesn’t rarely lead to falling out or becoming disillusioned. As happened in this case with me.
Well said Brian,
“It’s all just hearsay and speculation” JG, If you are not a fan of negativity, cynicism, personal attacks or lack of charity then I’d stay away from this blog
As I’ve just explained to JG, the comments on this thread are very FAR from being “hearsay and speculation”. In a number of ways various bloggers here have had personal contact with Fr Keenan.
But even if that were not true, what is already in the public domain should be sufficient clue to anyone with a Catholic sense, that this latest appointment is just the same old, same old.
If you’ve ever seen an advert for the many dissenters who have used the Catholic chaplaincy at Glasgow University as a platform to spread their heresy, for example, you would know (if you have any Catholic sense at all) that the priest responsible for said chaplaincy is not remotely suitable to be a bishop, least of all during the worst ever crisis to hit the Church.
But, look, it’s not obligatory to comment here and I’m sure JG will survive without your advice. So, don’t let us keep you.
The Catholic Truth blog is about so many people with so many opinions giving their different views and I think that is great.
When it comes to presenting facts I have never known Catholic Truth, the news letter, purveyor of news, to give anything other than the truth. It is not always palatable and I might not say it in the same way. But there is no getting away from the fact we are living in very strange times.
You’ve just moved right up to the top of the pay scale 😀
Spero, I totally agree with you.
Having said that I am still for giving Fr. Keenan the benefit of the doubt. This position may give him a chance to show his metal. I hope so anyway.
You’re back down to the middle of the pay scale 🙄 😀
Oh Miss! Miss! Please Ms Editor, a few years back I seen Fr. Keenan outside a Glasgow chippy eating a sausage supper…And it was a Friday! The sin which is regularly committed on this blog is called Detraction. So forgive me if I don’t take lectures in the Catholic faith from the Ma Barker of Scottish sedevacantism
You’re just the person I’ve been looking for to give us all lessons in charity and how to avoid the sin of detraction.
When can you start? 🙄
Is Fr Keenan not too old to be a bishop? Both you and he must be some age to remember the days when meat was banned on a Friday.
Even I’m struggling.
Game set and match 😀
Off topic: for some reason your post of 9.53. went into moderation. Cannot understand why. This happens from time to time – sorry about that.
I love the irony of you taking your own name out of my comment, but have no issue with publishing the names of the various clergy you so often seek to scandalize, which now includes a Bishop elect. It’s a shame you don’t extend the same privilege to others as you do to yourself.
It is a convention of blogging that those who sign up for any particular blog are allowed the courtesy of creating a username. All and any priests who have signed up to comment on this blog, have been afforded that courtesy. I would not dream of divulging their real names. Nor yours.
So, your charge is vacuous nonsense. Fr Keenan has been appointed Bishop of Paisley. Would you prefer we stopped using his name and called him the “Bishop-elect” or some such title to conceal his name? Is that what you want?
If you do that, Ed, Alex won’t know who you are talking about, so try and be fair.
I think Alexander likes me really – do you? I mean, do you think he likes me, really, not “do you like me, really” ,,, I’m sorry I started this. I can be a real smart-alex at times… 😀
Before you get mad at me, be assured, I really like you! 😀
Have they actually got any heather in Paisley….??
May be the new bishop could start off in a cautious manner…..set fire to some old tyres or abandoned cars….??…gradually working towards the heather, though taking a burning tyre aboard the Millport ferry might present a challenge …..
Much easier to smoke out the dead wood by ordering every parish to have a traditional mass every day…..let them have twenty Novus Ordo masses per day if they want…..but one Tridentine Mass per parish per day will soon set the metaphorical heather alight.
If my Lord Paisley happens to be reading this can I suggest the new DVD documentary on the life of Archbishop Lefebvre……now there was a Bishop….
At least four persons at Turnbull Hall (three of which I know to have been students) have asked Fr Keenan for a Traditional Mass.
I myself have asked him. To paraphrase, he told me that he would like to have a Tridentine Mass at the chaplaincy, however he was awaiting the archbishop’s [++Tartaglia] sentiments.
Some time later, myself and a friend tried to establish a Juventutem chapter in Glasgow. He was reluctant to facilitate this without the Archbishop’s permission. Permission was eventually received, and a monthly low Mass in the 1962 Rite was planned to begin January this year. Fr Keenan recently reneged. My presence wasn’t welcome because of my known association with this enterprise (Catholic Truth), and it was thought I would be too “political”. I agreed to have no involvement in Juventutem for the sake of the group.
In spite of this, Fr Keenan recommended that Juventutem members should meet together on a routine basis, before having a regular Mass. And presently, they are still waiting. I doubt they will ever get one. Take note, No one you know, otherwise you might become disillusioned.
Why was Fr Keenan not transparent? Why didn’t he just tell us he didn’t want a Traditional Mass in his parish?
My suspicion is that he was never interesting in the Traditional Mass in the first place, or he knew it would jeopardise his chances of becoming bishop, which I have (accurately) suspected was his ambition for the past two years. My assertion is that he wanted to maintain the illusion to us that he was a Summorum Pontificum friendly priest. Meanwhile, no request for the Traditional Mass was brought before the Archbishop, evidently, because Fr Keenan would not have won the esteem of ++Tartaglia, who is averse to the Traditional Mass. Such was needed from him in order for Fr Keenan to be appointed to Paisley. It looks very “political” to me.
Interpret this as you will.
Additionally, Fr Keenan is a fierce advocate for the canonisation of John Paul II. He might possibly pass as ‘conservative’, but he’s no Traditionalist, and we should expect nothing but the perpetuation of ecclesial disorientation in Paisley.
He is ambivalent about Medjugorje. He maintains that the Church is ‘undecided’. His attitude is therefore permissive, indeed, he is associated with the Craig Lodge retreat centre. Turnbull Hall is a hotbed of Medjugorje fanaticism. And the Charismatic movement. The ‘Rise’ charismatic prayer group and the UCO ecumenical charismatic group have regularly met at the chaplaincy under his watch.
I have known Father Keenan personally for a few years.
Among the most unsettling things Fr Keenan ever said was in an RCIA class in 2010: “It is obviously not the will of God that everybody in the world become Catholic”. Oblivious to the heterodoxy of this statement, he is of course the product of his formation, the new ecumenism and ecclesiology, a neo-modernist.
I had heard a rumour that there was to be a monthly mass introduced at the Chaplaincy.
I am sorry to hear that Fr Keenan has reneged – quite shabby thing to do after people have put in effort for something. What reason did he give for his about-face? From what I had heard, it wasn’t even going to be him who said the mass, so he can hardly blame his schedule.
It’s a shame how reticent priests are to do anything related to tradition, without the express permission of ++Tartaglia. They should not need to be spoon-fed in such fashion.
You can bet that if a priest wanted to hold some kind of fancy-dress ecumenical service, including the Gospel as illustrated via expressive dance, or a Holy Communion service for parishioners pets, they would not bother to consult ++Tartaglia.
You mention Juventutem – they had a previous Scottish Chapter, now defunct I believe. I don’t know who was involved in it.
Why not encourage some of those at Turnbull hall to visit St Andrews?
They will no doubt find it refreshing to be able to access traditional liturgy as a simple matter of course, as opposed to the long-winded bureaucracy and reticence which so characterises typical Diocesan attitudes to tradition.
“Why not encourage some of those at Turnbull hall to visit St Andrews?”
One of them was sympathetic to the SSPX, Another was sympathetic to me being an society supporter. Others are virulently condemnatory and subscribe to the schism narrative. Others believe it is a non-Catholic sect.
I don’t go to Turnbull Hall any-more, at all. So I won’t know how they’ve evolved unless I see them at Saint Andrew’s, which I haven’t. Accept one, an enemy, who I knew to be opposed to the society. He evidently had come to be polemical since he deposited Medjugorje literature upon the rear pew.
Can we have a bonfire with the literature?
We could burn Cardinal Winning’s World Youth Day rainbow chasuble as well!
If anyone is interested in the location of Turnbull Hall’s resident rainbow chasuble, it is folded up on the top shelf in the cupboard nearest the door to the sacristy.
How it got from the late Cardinal’s possession to the chaplaincy is a real mystery (sarcasm).
You didn’t hear it from me ; )
I think we should donate the Rainbow chasuble to the priests of the SSPX in Carluke! They would love it I’m sure!
Well it would be something to burn if the central heating breaks down.
Many thanks for that detailed and damning documentary evidence that Fr Keenan is no guru of orthodoxy let alone “traditional”. Your crystal clear factual comment has blown that myth right out of the water.
And what about this: “My presence wasn’t welcome because of my known association with this enterprise (Catholic Truth), and it was thought I would be too “political”.
That’s the accusation the pro-abortionists throw at the Church: they say we are being “political” by condemning abortion, as if abortion were a political issue and not a moral issue. So, in Fr Keenan’s view, “Catholic Truth” is being “political” by seeking the restoration of the entire traditional Catholic religion. That, folks, tells us all we need to know about Fr-I’m-orthodox-really-Keenan, whose “orthodoxy” wasn’t going to be allowed to interfere with his ambition.
So, be warned folks: just to be associated with Catholic Truth whether as someone who has written a letter, column or blog comment, is enough to make you unwelcome in the new broad Church of the Archdiocese of Glasgow (and no doubt beyond.)
Forget about “heather on fire”. We’ll be counting our blessings if there is anything left of the Catholic Church in Paisley at the end of Bishop-elect Keenan’s watch.
I’ve been reading down this thread and stopped at your post when I read this:
“At least four persons at Turnbull Hall (three of which I know to have been students) have asked Fr Keenan for a Traditional Mass.
I myself have asked him. To paraphrase, he told me that he would like to have a Tridentine Mass at the chaplaincy, however he was awaiting the archbishop’s [++Tartaglia] sentiments.”
That suggests he is a career cleric, so I don’t need to know any more. I will pray to St John Fisher, bishop and martyr for him, for courage once he takes on the shepherd’s responsibility for a whole diocese.
Before reading Miles comment above, I was going to state that I had heard Fr Keenan had been receptive to the TLM while at Glasgow University. Accordingly, I was going to suggest that his elevation might lead to the appearance of a traditional Sunday Mass (perhaps suppoted by Una Voce) appearing in Paisley Diocese.
I am less encouraged now, judging by Miles’ info that the rumoured Turnbull Hall mass seems to have come to nothing.
What is crystal clear from Miles’ comment is that Fr Keenan is an ambitious priest. He’s not the only one, though, allegedly willing to learn the TLM under the provisions of Summorum Pontificum who decided to wait to see what the then new archbishop thought about the matter. That’s blatant careerism.
Seriously worrying is this quote from the lips of Fr Keenan in Miles’ post: “It is obviously not the will of God that everybody in the world become Catholic” I’d love to hear his rationale for that – and his explanation of what, then, precisely IS the will of God, in the context of Christ’s exhortation to “go out into the whole world, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.”
Here we have yet another ecumenical/inter-faith bishop. We’ve a while to wait, sadly, for the appointment to Scotland of a truly (or even remotely) Catholic shepherd.
Fr Keenan has celebrated several Catholic Masses in the Protestant chapel of the University of Glasgow. During one of these Catholic Masses, the celebrant, Fr Keenan, received a ‘blessing’ from the Church of Scotland minister Reverend Stuart MacQuarrie.
“During one of these Catholic Masses, the celebrant, Fr Keenan, received a ‘blessing’ from the Church of Scotland minister Reverend Stuart MacQuarrie.”
Why does that not surprise me?
It says it all really, about the dire state of the Church today, when a priest like Fr Keenan is considered the best we’ve got. See Whistleblower’s comment at 10.30.a.m.
What a scandal!
There are several priests in the Archdiocese who are able to celebrate the 1962 Rite of Mass. I know the names of five of them. Only one of them is permitted to offer it on a Sunday (in the most Protestant area of Glasgow, obviously some kind of sick joke.)
What’s stopping the rest? Human respect, obviously. Summorum Pontificum is not worth the paper its written on.
I have followed this thread with interest.
A lot of people who have commented have never met Fr Keenan. Others have simply heard things about him. One person states that they have known him for around two years. Well, I have known Fr Keenan for almost 17 years, so I hope my comment will be of interest to the bloggers.
Fr Keenan is a clever, pastoral man. His views on ethical issues are exemplary. He has spoken on television about the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. In fact, he was one of the only priests in the Archdiocese to back Cardinal Winning when he uttered his legendary, “I hesitate to use the word perversion” line. I have seen some of his parish bulletins in Turnbull Hall and every now and again and reminds people that those in a state of mortal sin must not come forward for Holy Communion.
Now, I know these things should be elementary for a priest. It’s like saying someone is a good driver because he (or she) pays attention to the traffic lights. I have to say, that Father Keenan is not “Traditional”. Conservative, maybe, but not Traditional.
Having said that, are there any serious Traditional candidates that could be chosen to be a bishop? I couldn’t think of anyone better than Fr Keenan in the current ecclesiastical climate. I could think of some appalling candidates right enough. So, perhaps we should be thankful for small mercies!
Of all the comments, I have found Miles comment the most accurate of all. I must say, he knows that I am associated with the Catholic Truth apostolate and has never, ever spoken to me about it or made any attempt to discourage me.
That Fr Keenan would back Cardinal Winning over the “perversion” word is not surprising. An ambitious priest will back his boss in the press, whatever he says.
I’ve heard nothing but good about Fr Keenan from priests and people who know him. I’ve been told for years that he is a great, thoroughly orthodox priest.
From those who have challenged him (politely) over his permissive attitude to dissidents using his chaplaincy as a platform for their heresies or Medjugorje or whatever, I’ve heard a different story.
A number of priests, over the years, have contacted Catholic Truth to offer support, albeit Nicodemus style. Fr Keenan is not one of them.
As for “I couldn’t think of anyone better than Fr Keenan in the current…climate”. I’m with the great saint Charles Borromeo who famously said “better no priests than bad priests”. Ditto, bishops.
I couldn’t agree more with your entire post.
As for “better no priests than bad priests” – I think this has been a missed opportunity for the Vatican. There is no way Scotland needs 8 dioceses. I mean, the bishops are hardly going to be run off their feet performing ordinations are they?
I couldn’t agree more with your not agreeing more with my entire post 😀
And I couldn’t agree more than we don’t need 8 dioceses in Scotland. It would save us printing and postage costs if we only had to report on one or two at most
You are right – the bishops are not going to be run off their feet performing ordinations, although they’re very likely to be run off their feet organising and attending ecumenical events. There’s a lot of hard work involved in keeping the separated brethren out of the Church…
I’ve known Fr Keenan for four and a half years, not two. My reference to “two years” @7.36am referred to the time I started to think more critically.
In the past I have been very amiably acquainted with Fr Keenan. He was my parish priest, spiritual director and confessor.
Around twelve years ago Fr Keenan was my spiritual director too. As I said, I found your post very accurate indeed.
One of the practices at Turnbull Hall which upset me the most was that students (I know of at least two) were given permission by Father Keenan to take the Blessed Sacrament in a lunette from the tabernacle and deposit it upon the altar for private exposition.
Fr John Keenan has emailed me:
Very many thanks for your kind words and good wishes. All of these have helped me so much.Re. the matter of the High Mass let me get my feet under the table then do come and see me and we will try to see what can be done.
He doesn’t sound too bad, does he now?
He sounds just great. Let’s know when you’ve been to see him and when we can expect that TLM.
But please forgive me for not holding my breath.
Well, I can’t go to see him, as I live in England and he’s up in bonnie Scotland. Should I tell him I’m emailing on your behalf, or just that I’m a traditionalist activist?
I would leave it for now. The announcement was only made a few days ago. I’m sure there are some Traditionalists in the Diocese of Paisley who will petition the bishop at the appropriate time.
A solemn pontifical high Mass in Scotland would be a real blessing.
I can’t see it happening however. If the bishop agreed to it, he would have to find a choir skillful enough to interpret the Liber, a liturgically literate MC, and a deacon and sub-deacon, both of which would need to know the Traditional Mass. I doubt those kinds of resources exist in Paisley diocese. Even if they did, somewhere, it would require a lot of organisation to put it all together, and unless the enthusiasm is there I doubt there will be the motivation.
However, there is no reason why there shouldn’t be frequent low Masses.
Do you see Fr Keenan allowing a Traditional Mass in the Diocese of Paisley? I think he might.
Yes and no. The man is a mystery to me.
He’s 50 years old. There is a 25 year window for him to pursue a viable episcopacy. If he is too Traditional it’s likely he will rub the other Scottish bishops up the wrong way. I can’t see him doing that.
Glasgow’s see will become vacant in 12 years. ++Keenan would have a good chance of succeeding ++Tartaglia. Archbishop Cushley is roughly the same age as ++Keenan, so if ++Cushley is made a Cardinal he will likely keep it until ++Keenan retires. However, if ++Tartaglia is made cardinal, ++Keenan has a good chance of being one.
If that theory is correct, and if ++Keenan will be a careerist, then I doubt he will be remotely ‘Traditional’ in the meantime. He will know by now that this Pope is not Tradition friendly. Being pro Summurum Pontificum might get you a red hat under Benedict (like ++Burke), but not Francis (++Burke wouldn’t have a chance now, in fact he’s already been ousted from his curial position).
Such prognostications brings to mind, regarding those seeking preferment, the late Canon Sheehan’s book “Luke Delmege”. A first class read.
I think this new bishop will be an improvement on what we have throughout Scotland. It’s not fair to be having a go at him before he’s even installed! When I found “Tradition” it was by a very slow process and it took the best part of 10 years to grasp all that was /is going on. It all began by a chance attendance at a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin with the priest ad orientem. At the time I had no idea it was a NO Mass and didn’t know what to make of it. It took years of reading etc., before I realised just WHERE the rot was / is in the Church. It’s a journey and good priests like Father Keenan will eventually get there.
I started off as an orthodox Catholic who thought: “if only the bishop knew what’s going on he would stop it” etc. Then I realised the book stopped at the bishop’s door. Then I realised most of them are the same so I thought:”if only the Nuncio knew what was going on….” I eventually got as far as the Pope and realised, according to the prophecies, that the rot starts at the top. So, I jumped the sinking ship before I, and my family, sank with it.
The loss of faith in parishes throughout the land is phenomenal. The sheer disrespect shown to the Blessed Sacrament says it all.
I can understand the comments of others but I have most sympathy for your comments. I think he will be an improvement.
Would you explain in what way he will be an improvement?
Clearly I don’t have a crystal ball. However, I hope he will be more open to the Traditional Mass. The reply to Catholic Convert is encouraging.
A Traditional Mass in the Diocese of Paisley would be an improvement. Someone earlier said that he won’t be discouraging more Traditional leaning Paisley priests from implementing the Traditional Mass or Traditional elements into the New Mass. Now, I know this doesn’t set the heather on fire, but it is an improvement.
I think we should be careful here and thank God for small mercies. We all know of some names – for example another Petrus (who currently lives in the Big Apple) – who would be a disaster. Father John Keenan deserves time and prayers.
“A Traditional Mass in the Diocese of Paisley would be an improvement.”
When he was Bishop of Paisley, Archbishop Tartaglia said he made clear to his priests that if any of them wanted to offer the TLM, fine, just to let him know for the record. None of them did. So, if Fr Keenan merely “permits” his priests to offer the TLM, that’s no big deal. If you’d said that if Fr Keenan would start training priests in Paisley with a view to having a TLM in every parish, I’d have agreed that THAT would definitely be an improvement. Not much, but an improvement.
“I think we should be careful here and thank God for small mercies…(another priest) would have been a disaster.”
There must be something seriously wrong with me, because, for the life of me I cannot see as a “mercy” (small or otherwise) the appointment of a priest (to the episcopate) who thinks nothing of telling would-be converts at an RCIA meeting that “obviously” it is not God’s will for everyone to be members of the Catholic Church – God’s chosen ark of salvation.
I know it sounds all very open minded and kind and charitable to say “allow him time and prayers.” Of course we must pray for him. But our prophetic vocation as baptised and confirmed Catholics is to be on our guard and to warn others when wolves in sheep’s clothing are on the loose. To date, Fr Keenan – having somehow achieved a reputation for orthodoxy – has not acted like a true shepherd, for the reasons already given above in several posts. I wish Fr Keenan well and I will pray for him with all possible fervour, but I am not going to pretend that I think this is great news for the Church in Scotland just because the appointment of this modernist is better than the appointment of another modernist.
I repeat, however, that if I’m proved wrong and Fr Keenan turns out, as Spero intimates, to have been keeping his powder dry until the time came when he ccould break through and show his true traditionalist colours under his mitre, then I’ll be the first to say “wonderful” – I am so glad to be proved wrong.
Until then, I remain on full alert… 😯
This is the best recommendation I have heard in a long time spot on Mary is our Hope
Have you READ all the comments here? Are you aware of the facts?
If Father Keenan is a “good priest” then there’s no reason why Mgr Basil Loftus should ever feature in Catholic Truth again.
You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare your own situation to that of ANY priest. Priests like Fr Keenan know perfectly well what is going on. Didn’t he say that he’d wait to see what the new Archbishop (Tartaglia) thought about Summorum Pontificum before he decided whether or not to learn it? Ambitious priests are far from being good priests.
And when I once expressed sympathy (a little!) for young priests born into the novus ordo set up who had never known anything else, a very senior priest told me not to have any sympathy, since they, like you and I, have access to all the facts about the Church and the crisis. After all, Fr Keenan knows about Medjugorje and supports it. Do you think he doesn’t know about Fatima? The “diabolical disorientation” of which he is a part?
If you have not read all of the facts about Fr Keenan I suggest you do so now. If you do nothing else but read the comment posted by Miles Immaculatae at 7.36.a.m today, you’ll have a better idea of just how “good” a priest is now to be installed as the latest addition to the apostate Scottish Bishops Conference.
WHISTLEBLOWER: “I am associated with the Catholic Truth apostolate. Apostolate? On what authority? Since when? Surely this is a typo and what was meant was Catholic Truth apostate.
Why do you say that Catholic Truth is apostate?
Reading these comments it seems to me that it is the people who have known Fr Keenan personally and think he’s a nice person, who are most hopeful about him being made bishop. However, reading the information about him especially posted by Miles, I don’t think he would ever go against the other bishops so I cannot see how things will be any different. I think they may not get worse under him, but I can’t see how they’ll get better. If he wouldn’t even say the traditional Mass when Summorum Pontificum came out till he saw how the new archbishop was going to react, I can’t see him making any difference.
And if priests who veer towards tradition make it clear they are that way inclined? What has happened to them in the past? A free transfer to Tarbrax? With a population of nine Catholics? But what does that accomplish? Nothing. So if Fr Keenan has been ambitious, maybe it has been for a reason. Look, these priests are not of the SSPX. But let’s see what he does when his feet are under the table. No?
Agreed. Let’s see what he does when “his feet are under the table”. He may well stop supporting Medjugorje, permitting dissenters to speak on Catholic premises, set programmes for priests in Paisley to learn the TLM (not just “permit” but do what Cardinal Hoyos made clear was the mind of Pope Benedict, to have a TLM in every parish – that requires planning and training of priests. Let’s see if he does that). And he may come to realise that it is, indeed, God’s will that everyone be Catholics – and put an end to the scandalous ecumenical and interfaith activities in his diocese. And, who knows, he may change his mind about taking Pope Francis’s “vision” of the Church to Paisley.
As you say – let’s wait and see.
I have thought that myself from time to time that the good priests should maybe keep their heads now and actually try to get promoted so they could make a real difference. I do hope that’s what Fr Keenan has done. That would be great.
Margaret Mary: Catholic Truth Scotland are apostate because they actively drive souls away from God and the Church. No one is ever persuaded of the reasonableness of their views because their views are always polluted personalised attacks and vitriol. They are entirely lacking in charity, joy, peace, kindness, generosity and gentleness. They do nothing to further the cause of traditional liturgy in Scotland… “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”. 1 Corinthians 13
You don’t seem to have an abundance of charity yoursef, Alex.
You have forgotten that Lefebvrians are outwith Our Lord’s precept of charity toward our neighbour. In the neo-Catholic imagination we’re a rung lower on the scum-ladder than Nazis, satanists and sex offenders.
If Alexander really thought we were apostates, he would pray and offer sacrifices for the salvation of our souls. He would pro-actively try to bring us back into the One True Fold with patience, charity and sound reasoning, indeed, that is our Christian duty. Instead he insults us, which is poisonous to the spirit of true evangelisation.
Apostasy does not mean what you appear to think it means, and you have committed a grave injustice by using such a term in such a context. Ignorance cannot be a sufficient excuse. Therefore, for you complain about others’ personalised attacks and vitriol while displaying such behaviour yourself is breathtaking. Splinters and beams come to mind.
Absolutely spot on Alexander. Totally agree!!!!
If CatholicTruth actively drive souls away from God and the Church, then according to your own reasoning Catholic Truth is a reprobate enterprise. The long-standing teaching of the Catholic Church requires that we as Catholics have a moral obligation to avoid those things that pose a danger to our faith. This includes blasphemous, immodest, apostate, schismatic and heretical music, film television, literature and internet sites. Although the Index of prohibited books no longer has legal force, the Index maintains its moral force. This was stated in June, 1966 and reiterated by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1985 in a letter to Cardinal Siri.
I cannot understand why somebody who is convinced this blog poses a grave threat to souls and constitutes a temptation to apostasy, can continue, in good conscience, to participate in this blog discussion. You should speak to your confessor about this. One cannot trust the sincerity of someone who says one thing and does the other.
I cannot understand why somebody who is convinced this blog poses a grave threat to souls and constitutes a temptation to apostasy, can continue, in good conscience, to participate in this blog discussion.
I would not go quite so far as to say that about this blog, but the main reason I stick around is to correct the wrong impression of Catholicism that could be given to enquirers who came here looking for information about the Church.
“the main reason I stick around is to correct the wrong impression of Catholicism that could be given to enquirers who came here looking for information about the Church.”
I’m not going to mention the patronising nature of that comment – nope, I won’t go there.
I’m biased of course, but the “impression” I get here is of Catholics who love the Church and who give of their time and energy to correct the errors prevalent due to the awful crisis in the Church today. All busy people. You know the old saying “if you want something done, ask a busy person.” Lazy people make excuses for their sloth, not the busy bees. Sure, some come and go – perseverance is not a virtue notable in Catholics of the 21st century, whether they jump ship from priestly ministry, religious life or the Catholic Truth blog. But the only “impression” any objective reader could possibly take away from this blog is of a smallish group of concerned Catholics who seek, through their comments on current Church affairs, to correct errors and contribute to the restoration of the traditional Catholic Faith. Any other interpretation is a misinterpretation at best and a complete lack of charity at worst.
I’m not even going to bother asking you for evidence for your extremely unjust accusation. The longer we are in this situation of crisis, the less I care what critics say about us. And – to be brutally frank – we have no intention of taking lectures from someone who dismisses the entirety of Catholic Tradition in a matter so grave as the reception of Holy Communion, justifying receiving in the hand because it is “allowed”, as is altar girls, EMHCs, dissenters speaking on Catholic premises, Protestants “blessing” Catholics, Protestants preaching in Catholic churches, Protestants reaffirming Cardinals in their baptism… the list is endless. Any Catholic who fails to connect what is happening today, all the illicit “permissions”, all the scandalous breaks with Catholic Tradition, has nothing to offer anyone enquiring about Catholicism. Catholicism has two key pillars, of equal weight: Tradition & Scripture. You can’t have one without the other, and that’s what the 1962 “born again” Catholics like yourself try to do.
If the the only reason you come on here, Eileenanne, is to “save” enquirers from receiving a solid traditional explanation of the Church, don’t bother.
I disagree with your completely. I know people who have learned a lot from Catholic Truth. It’s the one place where you can be sure of getting the facts about what is happening in the Church and be reminded of what the Church actually teaches. I haven’t seen any “polluted personal attacks and vitriol” from the CT bloggers, and you can only speak as you find. I also know several people who are helped by this site and the newsletter, so we’ll have to agree to differ on this.
And to suggest that the cynical CTS clique is an “apostolate” is absurd. Such a wild claim smacks of the same disobedience and vanity we see from liberals and the same kind of “saved elect” thinking we see from evangelical protestants.
Today at approximately 5.30pm I delivered a letter in Fr Keenan’s pigeon hole at Turnbull Hall.
In it I recommended he consecrate the diocese of Paisley to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as soon as possible after he is installed.
Just out of curiosity, which Scottish diocese is next in line for a new bishop?
I would imagine that we’ll have a bishop appointed to the Diocese of Motherwell next.
I’m waiting for the papal nuncio to contact me for my opinion any day now. Let me know if there’s anyone who think I should add to my list.
Last night, a friend told me that she has been following this thread with interest. She has met Fr Keenan although doesn’t know him well. She does not think this is a good appointment but in response to my “how did he get his reputation for orthodoxy?” she told me that having heard a few of his sermons which were sound, he is the only priest she’s ever heard preaching about purity. That is a big plus for Fr Keenan and I am delighted to have heard it from someone I know and trust. She is not a member of the “he’s a nice man brigade” so her opinion means something.
I am delighted to know that and pray that, perhaps, who knows, he will be the first Scottish Bishop in recent times to publish a pastoral letter on co-habitation / purity. I will then – I promise- eat my dunce’s hat!
Sorry, but I’m not particularly impressed with the “sound sermons” – didn’t Pope Saint Pius X say that it was a sign of the Modernist to say something orthodox on one page and then something unorthodox on the next page. This is what causes confusion in people.
I admit that I had only skimmed through all posts yesterday but I have now read them all. I think some of Fr. Keenan’s activities and beliefs are shocking. For example, to say that God doesn’t want all men (and women!) to be in the Church which He founded for the salvation of souls is scandalous. However, I recently heard a priest saying the same thing so I think it must be the latest deviation and sacrifice on the altar of ecumania. It is nothing short of calling Christ a liar and calling the Gospels fables.
It is so sad that we have come to believe that just because a priest is good living, doesn’t go to gay bars, doesn’t drink to excess and says his prayers that he is a “good” priest! Surely we should expect more of our priests? That list is should be the starting point, the very minimum requirement for ANY Catholic, never mind a priest who is dedicated to God in a very special way.
However, I hold to my “journey” simile of yesterday i.e. we are all on a journey, including Fr. Keenan and perhaps he will find his way back to the traditions of the Church. We must pray for that. I well remember my long hard journey back to the Mass of ages and the perennial teachings of the Magisterium.
It’s shocking, but they’re only following Pope John Paul’s example.
This Pope placed more importance on the ‘Civilization of
FreemasonyLove’, rather than Christendom.
Christendom requires everybody to be Catholic, whereas the ‘Civilization of Love’ lets you be any religion.
perhaps he will find his way back to the traditions of the Church
That’ll be hard if he follows the ‘vision’ of Pope Francis.
Somebody told me ages ago that Fr Keenan put a statue of Pope John Paul II in the chaplaincy somewhere, even before he was beatified, which isn’t allowed. Is that true about the statue or is it one of these urban myths?
See page 14 in the October edition of Catholic Truth. It makes reference to the statue. This article is also relevant to this particular blog thread:
I cannot remember if the statue was installed before the Beatification. I have a feeling it wasn’t there before the beatification. Although this happens to be irrelevant, because a beatus is not approved for universal public veneration anyway, except of course, in this case, in Rome and Poland.
If we should publicly venerate any beatus, it ought to be our own Blessed John Henry Newman.
If anyone is interested, there is an even bigger statue of John Paul II to the left of the sanctuary at Saint Dominic’s, Bishopbriggs.
I think we have to acknowledge that baby steps in the right direction are better than no steps at all. It’s important we remain patient and charitable. Defeatism will do no good whatsoever.
I don’t think anyone has been uncharitable about Fr Keenan. I can’t get past the fact that he wants to bring “Pope Francis’s vision of the Church” to Paisley. It’s not uncharitable to say that he’s a cause of concern for this reason and other reasons given by bloggers.
I don’t think that it’s defeatism either. I call it realism.
Not long ago I attended a pro-life rally in Edinburgh and found myself standing near Fr Keenan and a bus load of his student parishioners. I expect this to be dismissed as nothing outstanding and merely the minimum one would expect of a priest. Maybe so, but he is one of very few to take such action. I didn’t notice the SSPX priests and their parishioners. They must have been much further up the road.
How do you know there weren’t SSPX parishioners at the rally? Do we have identifying tattoos on our foreheads?
I have no idea how many SSPX parishioners were at the rally, but as priests (or at least priests in clerical garb) were conspicuous by their absence, I think I might have noticed if the priests were there.
Did you come with the SSPX contingent rather than the Uni group?
Was that rally something that Catholics are obliged to attend or, to apply your own personal rule of thumb, was it, like “Communion in the hand” optional? We can receive in the hand if we wish, we may attend a pro-life rally if we wish. Just to clarify…
Fantastic that Fr Keenan attended a pro-life rally and it will be even more fantastic if he attends as Bishop of Paisley.
I think you’ll find he will be there, however, standing shoulder to shoulder with vicars, and ministers of the various Protestant communities, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, you name it. That’s not to diminish the fact that he attended a pro-life rally but as you implicitly acknowledge in your comment, being pro-life is not specifically “Catholic”. We tend to (or used to) like our bishops to be fully believing Catholics.
PS – well spotted. You are right about the “clerical garb”. If any SSPX priests had been there, you would have seen them a mile away in their cassocks. On the day of Pope Benedict’s visit to Glasgow, one of our SSPX priests accompanied us to hand out Fatima literature outside Bellahouston Park. He was surrounded by passers-by all the time, telling him how wonderful it was to see a priest who dressed like a priest. The problem is there are so few Society priests and they do so much travelling to take the Sacraments up and down the length and breadth of the UK. However, during the major pro-life campaign in Ireland, one of our readers informed me, their Society priest was out day and night handing out literature on the streets and knocking on doors. Where, I wonder, were the Bishops of Ireland?
Out of interest, did the archdiocese allocate tickets for Saint Andrew’s SSPX parish in Glasgow for the Bellahouston Mass, or did the archdiocese pretend as if they didn’t exist?
No tickets for us. We went along to spread the Fatima message and had a wonderful day. We then travelled to Birmingham with our boards containing a request for the Consecration of Russia, some in English and some in German. The Pope read each one as he went past in the popemobile.
Was that rally something that Catholics are obliged to attend or, to apply your own personal rule of thumb, was it, like “Communion in the hand” optional? We can receive in the hand if we wish, we may attend a pro-life rally if we wish.
Yes, we MAY receive Communion in the hand, but we SHOULD take some sort of action to fight the culture of death that is growing in our world, so one is a choice, the other is an obligation. Not of course attending a specific rally, but Catholics SHOULD take some sort of action over and above praying for changes to the law and in the mindset that has got us where we are.
It is interesting (though unsurprising) that the very first thing to be discussed about Fr Keenan here was his attitude to Mass in the Extraordinary Form, which is less a touchstone of orthodoxy than is a commitment to pro-life causes. When we get to the judgement seat, we may well have to explain why we did not do more to protect innocent children from being murdered in their mothers’ wombs. We have no reason to believe there will be any questions about which form of the Mass we preferred.
The fact that people of other faiths turn up at pro-life rallies is to their credit. That Catholics do not always outnumber them is to our shame.
As I’m fed up pointing out to you, Communion in the hand is one of a string of sacrileges that are “permitted” by our disobedient bishops. That doesn’t bother you, because you prefer to receive in the hand. At least be honest about it. So, we MAY (physically) receive Communion in the hand because our faithless and disobedient and utterly negligent bishops “permit” it, despite the condemnation of the practice throughout the history of the Church. But having been given the information, the truth about this “permission”, no Catholic may MORALLY receive Communion in the hand without incurring the displeasure of Our Lord.
And yet again you reveal your – frankly lack of any Catholic sense – by placing the ancient Mass below prolife work in the order of things. Do you realise what you actually said? You said this:
“Fr Keenan’s attitude to (the Traditional Latin) Mass …is less of a touchstone of orthodoxy than is a commitment to pro-life causes.”
Really? So, saving human lives on this earth is more important than saving souls. For that is exactly what you have just said.
Now it is a great work to fight to save the lives of unborn babies. No question about it. But no corporal work of mercy, nothing we can do to improve the lot of human beings in the temporal sphere, can begin to be compared with the work of saving souls. And the role of the Mass in saving souls, cannot be over-emphasised. As the SSPX priests frequently remind us, the world could not continue without the Mass. Not the new Mass, which the Vatican itself refuses to affirm is “wholly orthodox and pleasing to God” but the ancient Mass, proven for its supernatural character in forming saints.
You, Eileenanne, repeatedly demonstrate to us, the great success of Vatican II and the novus ordo / ecumenical set up. That Catholics have been Protestanised so quickly and so thoroughly, is astonishing in the extreme. Fr Keenan may be a wonderful advocate for the pro-life cause. That is commendable. It’s not enough to make him a Catholic bishop.
where do you get your ideas from? What evidence do you have that lay people can touch the Blessed Sacrament with their hands?
From several official Church documents which give clear instructions about exactly how it is to be done and under what circumstances it is permitted, Redemptionis Sacramentum is the most recent that I am aware of. It was written to correct abuses, so if the Pope had wanted to stop lay people distributing the Eucharist it would have been forbidden in that document.
I think you’ll find the problem with that on the new thread
That article by Archbishop Lefebvre leaves us in no doubt about what will happen if we blindly follow church leaders during this crisis. Any opening of my eyes that remained to be done, has now been done. I think you’ll have the same experience if you read it from start to finish.
Pope Paul VI condemned the Dutch bishops who started this diobedience in the 1970’s He wrote to them no less than seven times to stop this practice.
Pope John Paul II condemned the practice in 1993.
You really must not be fooled. In St Andrews and Edinburgh Arch-diocese, Cardinal O’Brien and his wee band of merry men ensured this disobedience was forced through by ordering that all his priests would teach the faithful that this disobedience was the Church’s teaching. It was in fact all lies and Cardinal O’Brien misused his position as a Prince of the Church to force his lies on the faithful. Lies all lies.
Almighty God have mercy on Scotland. Amen
The uni group. It was with Fr Keenan, but it was a different rally. It was the march for life in Glasgow. Most of the people there were Catholic, and they probably heard about it and were encouraged to come at parish level. The SSPX parishes don’t generally receive promotions about such things, since mainstream Catholics tend to give them a wide birth, which figures since diocesan bishops don’t generally even grant jurisdiction! (although they sometimes do you’d be interested to know, which kind of obliterates the schism narrative).
Thanks for that. Interesting, isn’t it, how the same people who lecture us about being too quick to judge and not getting our facts straight, think nothing of not getting their facts straight and (mis)judging the SSPX at every turn.
Shocking, really… 😯
The SSPX parishes don’t generally receive promotions about such things…
Um… presumably ONE of you has heard of the internet and could sign up for notifications…
I have no intention of participating in diocesan events, if I can possibly avoid them. Since he refused to cater for me, point blank, when I asked my bishop what plans he was making to provide the Mass when Summorum Pontificum was published, and he replied “none”, I feel no affiliation whatsoever to diocesan events. To use the words of my then bishop: “I have no plans” to sign up for any “notifications” (not that I’m aware of any on offer except the SCMO, which notifications I do receive, as editor of Catholic Truth.
The rally to which I refer was not a diocesan event. It was organised by other pro-life groups.
I remember the days when Father Robert Hill was chaplain at Glasgow Uni, so Father Keenan didn’t come into the most orthodox of situations anyway.
I seem to remember some “avantgarde” nun there putting her oar in when students asked for anything too “Catholic”, such as the Rosary during May and October.
I sometimes think that even the best of priests get so hammered down by the inexhaustible energy of the diabolic that over the years they start to be “reeds swaying in the wind”.
There are many signs at Turnbull Hall which would suggest a past history of heterodoxy. I was intrigued by the collection of modernistic, ceramic chalices in the sacristy, and several gaudy flower-power vestments. Although to his credit, the chaplain doesn’t ever use those. One of his predecessors has ripped out the altar rails there, and chopped them up. Part of them was made into a lectern and the rest were nailed to the wall in the foyer to be used as shelving.
Up until recently at least there used to be a bookshelf in the public lounge. Among the books was outrageously dissident book from the 1970s on the conciliar liturgical reforms called The Mass and the People of God, no wonder the Liturgy is in such disarray if that was the poison they were reading and teaching. There was another book called ‘Catholics and Sex’ or something like that. It was published in conjunction with channel four and it was a lurid attack on Catholic moral teaching and purity. I have no idea why such books were there for everyone to read.
“I remember the days when Father Robert Hill was chaplain at Glasgow Uni, so Father Keenan didn’t come into the most orthodox of situations anyway.”
If Fr Keenan came into a situation where unorthodoxy was already usual, how can we blame him for it? It’s very hard for priests to make changes when they are appointed to any parish.
If Paisley is an OK diocese, maybe he will do well there and have more confidence to make a difference.
Josephine… “Somebody told me ages ago that Fr Keenan put a statue of Pope John Paul II in the chaplaincy somewhere, even before he was beatified” Someone one? Oh well, just go right ahead and repeat that calumny without checking the facts.
The Parish of St Dominic’s in Bishopbriggs had a statue of Pope John Paul II before his beatification but I’m not sure about Turnbull Hall.
Perhaps Miles Immaculatae would know?
It’s a little bit over the top to accuse Josephine of “calumny” for repeating something she’s been told, as fact. Isn’t it easier just to check, with courtesy, that the information is correct, Alexander?
See my comment @February 11, 2014 at 7:27 pm
That’s a first – being directed to a past edition of our newsletter!
Silly me 🙂
The statue was not there before Pope John Paul’s beatification,fact! This type of tittle tattle is exactly typical of this blog. Interesting that you stood outside Bellahouston Park for the Pope’s visit and leafleted the faithful along with the other dissenters such as the Protestant evangelicals and the atheists. I’m assuming that you did not want to, or could not actually come in to the park?
Why are you so quick to think the worst of us? Anyone can make a mistake and I’ve no reason to think Josephine was being malicious.
The same, however, cannot be said with certainty about you.
I’ve just scrolled up to read Josephine’s post and she does not assert the statue at Turnbull as “fact” at all. Indeed, her post addresses one of those who knows Turnbull Hall and Fr Keenan. I’ve copied it here for ease of reference – note: she is asking if this story about the statue of JP II is true or if it is an “urban myth”
Somebody told me ages ago that Fr Keenan put a statue of Pope John Paul II in the chaplaincy somewhere, even before he was beatified, which isn’t allowed. Is that true about the statue or is it one of these urban myths.
So, Alexander, I think you owe Josephine an apology. Far from being the “tittle tattle exactly typical of this blog” Josephine’s enquiry reflected the intelligent questioning which is exactly typical of this blog.
So, let’s hear it – “Sorry Josephine…I made a very rash judgment about you…”
Let’s hear it, Alexander… Before you lose ALL credibility.
That’s an absolute non-sequitur . What in heavens name does it matter who else was outside the park? There could have been a gathering of prostitutes and drug dealers outside the park. In what way would that have affected somebody from spreading the Fatima message?
This conversation is going just like most of the others on here. It’s like the alleged threats to doorstep clergy all over again…”Oh it wisnae me, oh that’s not EXACTLY what I said, I’ve been misunderstood, it’s actually someone else’s fault. It’s always about the semantics, always bickering, word play. But yet you NEVER like to address the actual intent. The intent, the tone and the motivation in making these false claims is always to discredit. Yeah sure, ok you win, I’m discredited and Catholic Truth Scotland can just continue to self congratulate itself and go on it’s merry way, safe in the knowledge that they are the righteous, the elected with no regard for the hurt and damage they continue to cause to Traditional Catholicism. Renfrew Street’s very own Westboro Baptists. Repeating a lie in this context (yes, even supposedly as a question) is still a sin. Apology, no don’t think so. Ok this is the point where you block people and start removing comments.
Ok this is the point where you block people and start removing comments.
You’d be thinking of the Catholic Answers Forum.
Considering you denounced us all as apostates, do you not think it is a testament to the blog owner’s charity and patience that you’ve been able to freely comment as long as you have?
As for the snide Westboro remark, they are a group who picket funerals and assert that God hates fags etc.. It really is so spiteful to make that comparison, and I think you know that.
The funny thing about Alexander is that he reminds many of us here of our former selves.
It is clear he thinks that the SSPX are reprobate children of Esau.
I would like to recall the prophecy of Saint Francis if Assisi:
Those who preserve in their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth.
Miles Immaculatae: “As for the snide Westboro remark, they are a group who picket funerals and assert that God hates fags etc.. It really is so spiteful to make that comparison”. Hardly, are you one of those people who want Christians to be nice”? I thought being nice was one of the errors of modernism? Do you not want people to be told the truth? Sure the Westboro Baptists can be blunt in their way of speaking and acting but do you not agree with them that the sodomites are going to hell? Was there not a suggestion from lots of regulars on here that the 2011 Japanese earthquake and tsunami might have been God’s judgement against Godlessness and homosexuality? Check back to the comments and you’ll find that’s the case. How is that any different from what Westboro say? The only real difference is the way you word things, in reality you have many points of convergence. The most obvious being your own deep hostility to mainstream Catholics of good standing and the Westboro’s Baptists identical deep hostility to mainstream Baptists of good standing.
If by ‘nice’ you mean allowing yourself to be treated like a child by the clergy who expect us to be docile and submissive to their heresy, impiety and impurity, then no, I don’t like ‘nice’ Christians. I find such people insufferably boring, and irritating, lacking passion. Like Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. If you perceive such a demeanour to be meek or charitable, then you are incredibly shallow.
If by ‘nice’ you mean charitable, compassionate, gracious, courteous, forgiving, then yes, I like ‘nice’ Christians.
People misinterpret Traditionalists’ choleric, fiery and virile tone as ‘uncharitable’. It’s not, it’s just passion. I remember getting upset because my friend got incredibly angry at me and called me uncharitable because I said I didn’t like guitars in the liturgy. During that period I suffered a lot of cognitive dissonance, because deep down I wanted to be honest with people, but they were placing intolerable moral expectations on me, expectation that I shut up and stop complaining and be a good little boy. I regard this kind of disposition to be what the Freudians call ‘psychic masochism’. You be that way if it floats your boat.
People hate us because we don’t just shut up and know our place. We are outspoken and punch well above our weight. I can see why you would be resentful at that: you loath our freedom, our joy, the unfathomable peace we have because we will never have to hear another guitar in Mass again. You loath us because misery loves company, and you have chosen misery. If you freely choose to stay in the kitchen, you have no right to get angry at the children playing outside who are having fun.
You believe we are ‘reactionary’ and ‘fundamentalist’ because you are suffering from what psychologists call ‘internalised discrimination’. You project onto us what you yourself feel, namely that deep down the world believes that you yourself are ‘reactionary’ and ‘fundamentalist’. The fact you are a Catholic in good standing means diddley-squat to the world, they just see another Catholic who opposes the culture of death. They think anybody who opposes the culture of death is pretty much like a Westboro baptist deep-down and they don’t differentiate between Traditionalist and Conservative Catholics like we do. You know this at a sub-conscience.level. Although you despise liberal Catholics and are proud of yourself for following all the Churches teachings, you nevertheless are preoccupied about not letting the world think you’re crazy. But they already think you are crazy, and they would say so if you were honest with them. A traditionalist is someone who is honest with them.
Do you understand what I’m saying? A perfect example of this ‘internalised hatred’ was Catholic Answers calling us ‘radical Traditionalists’. A term used by the SPLC, an American secularist group who think all orthodox Catholics are radical, including the ones on Catholic Answers. It’s absurd.
I want to know the name of that college. Where you took the assertiveness course! Like, now!
Brilliant post – a first class explanation of why people who hate us … hate us!
See if I care 😉
I don’t think people hate you – whoever is included in that group. You would maybe be surprised how few Catholics have even heard of you. I quite often mention things I have read here in conversation with fellow Catholics. Most don’t know what I am on about and think I am talking about the better known Catholic publishers with whom you almost share a name.
Eileenanne, aren’t you being rather disingenuous? I haven’t been a visitor here for too long – certainly not as long as you – and I’ve read many examples of such hatred.
I don’t find it at all surprising that few Catholics have heard of Catholic Truth. Most Catholics haven’t got a clue about what’s going on in the Church, and not many seem to care.
It’s their loss, but good for you for bringing it to their attention.
Thank you for your kind support – much appreciated.
Disagreeing – even violently – with what people say is very different from hating the people.
Yes, I find that when I speak to strangers and ask if they have heard of Catholic Truth they nearly always say “yes” and I have to clarify that I don’t mean the Catholic Truth Society. I also get emailed orders for various books, from time to time!
A couple of weeks ago I had a telephone call from a woman in Glasgow, asking to be added to the mailing list.
She said she’d been given a copy of the newsletter by a friend and was appalled that she was only now finding out about us. She asked why the priests were not promoting the newsletter (she emphatically thought they should be) and when I told her that not only would they not promote it, they would do everything in their power to prevent the Catholics in the pew like herself from knowing anything about us, she was horrified. I suggested that she check for herself by telling her priest that she had read the newsletter and wanted to receive it regularly. I wonder if she did. When I further informed her that the policy of the Bishops has always been to ignore us (which is obvious, but a kindly independent source told me that fact straight from the horses mouth – the “horse” being the Communications Director for the Archdiocese of Glasgow, Ronnie Convery) she was speechless. I know that, cos the phone went silent for a minute.
So, you are right. The majority of Scots Catholics won’t know anything about us. It’s one of the reasons we added the “Free” symbol to the front of the newsletter, hoping that readers would perhaps leave their copy lying around when they had finished reading it, wherever they thought fellow Catholics might find it, but I doubt if many do. I’ve been shocked myself recently to discover how little of the truly apostolic spirit exists in people who have been reading our newsletter and blog for years now. If they don’t feel moved to spread the word, there’s little likelihood of others doing so.
The hatred is there, however, and has been from the beginning. I don’t get as many nasty emails and letters these days, thank goodness, but I see it on this blog from time to time. So do readers who email and occasionally, very kindly, ring me to say not to get downhearted about it.
I don’t allow myself to get downhearted, because I know that it’s all part of the diabolical crisis in the Church where the devil is attacking key Catholic dogmas and causing confusion like never before. As the rest of the team keep reminding me, God has blessed our little enterprise and so we should not be surprised at the hatred it provokes. We entrust our enemies to Our Lady of Fatima and get on with the work in hand 😀
I don’t think anyone at Catholic Truth need worry too much about few Catholics having heard about them.
Few Catholics nowadays seem to have heard about mortal sin or of showing respect for the Blessed Sacrament, so I think it will be a relief to them to know that they are in the best of company.
Ask some of these catholics next time you see them how many beads there are in a set of rosary beads and how many commandments there are. You might get the same answer: I’ve never heard of them.
And by the way, Eileenanne, I don’t think many of them will have heard about Catholic Truth Society either
“I don’t think many of them will have heard about the Catholic Truth Society either”
Very true and just as well given that the CTS has gone the same way as every other Catholic publication – Modernist.
By the way, it is partly because people confuse us with the CTS that I keep reminding folk that our name is Catholic Truth and NOT Catholic Truth Scotland which readers often reduce to CTS.
We only have “Scotland” in our website address because, at the time when a malicious reader had our then website pulled, we decided to find another domain name and had to add “Scotland” for technical reasons. Our name, however, at the top of our publication and website is Catholic Truth.
To refresh memories and as a matter of interest, that same malicious reader bought up every version of “Catholic Truth” domain names that he could find, so we kept our old domain name to ensure there was no chance of it being hijacked by a troublemaker. The lengths some folk will go to in order to damage Catholic Truth – and I refer not just to the publication/website and blog of that name, if you get my drift…
A classic example of the neo-Catholic ‘internalised discrimination’ can be seen on BBC One on a Sunday morning. The Catholic Voices people are very careful not to appear ‘crazy’ to the audience. However, their verbose and gingerly platitudes do not fool the secularists. So why don’t they just come out and say that they think abortion is wrong, and contraception is wrong and x, y and z is wrong. Conservative Evangelical Christians don’t have a problem with this, and neither do the SSPX. No matter how much you dress up Catholic teaching, the world will still hate us. A lot of neo-Catholics are obsessed with pacifying secular scientists, which is why a lot of vitriol against creationists comes from ‘conservative’ Christians. Do they not realise the atheists still consider them lunatics. Why not just join the Traditional ‘party’ and liberate yourself from cognitive dissonance. The neo-Catholics are terrified deep-down of being perceived as anti-Semitic, or sectarian, which is why they project these fears on Traditionalists, falsely believing their demonisation of us with appease the secularists, but it won’t, ever.
I couldn’t agree more about the performances of Catholic Voices on TV. I tape those Sunday morning discussions and it is always as you say. Whoever the Catholic is, he/she is always at pains to be “media-friendly” – and, as you also, rightly, say, it is a total waste of time.
Reminds me of a situation years ago when I was teaching in a non-denominational school in Scotland (before I saw the light and moved south of the border). I was friendly with a very modernist religious Sister and when the possibility of some kind of “retreat” arose, I suggested her as being someone who might be able to do some “age-appropriate” (nondescript) spiritual exercises (I’ve since tried to make reparation, worry not). Anyway, the Head of Department – a committed Protestant – wasn’t keen at all. I pointed out that she was a very “liberal” Catholic and wouldn’t be brainwashing the children about the Church at all – to which he replied: “But she’s still a Catholic”.
On another thread, discussing Catholic Voices, someone made the point that the woman in a particular interview was “over-trained”. I think that’s their problem. More concerned about their image than preaching the truth. An opportunity (many opportunities) missed.
Miles Immaculatae: To take that St Francis prophecy and apply it to yourself is totally self-obsessed and pure vanity. Identical to a protestant biblical literalists and their private revelation without need of Doctors of the Church or Holy Tradition. (yet again, another point of unity with the Westboro Baptists) Also, I see my question about Pope Benedict’s visit still remains unanswered by the CTS Mother Superior (whose name must not be said) This is important because if the St Andrew’s SSPX priests and laity were unable to get inside Bellahouston Park because invites were only made through Parishes of good standing then that is too bad. However, if they could have gained entry, then we must assume that they would have refused to receive Holy Communion because it was given in the hand by Eucharistic Ministers? Or in other words, you considered it invalid. And if you consider a Papal Mass to be invalid then logically, you are (as we all already know) Sedevacantists. And as Sedevacantists, you are outside the true Church and so have no business and no right to comment on who we have as a Bishop, as it is none of your business. However, if you really want to do something positive rather than attacking and criticising Fr. John on the internet. Then you should have faith, ask Our Lady to guide him. Offer him your love, serve him, honour him, respect Fr. John and his office. Offer him your loyalty and your prayers and then very quickly you will see the fruits of your prayers, miracles will start to happen and the real changes you claim to wish for will take place. Personally, I don’t actually think you seek any kind of reconciliation or unity with the Catholic faith or Church. Honestly, you are happy being a sect.
“And if you consider a Papal Mass to be invalid then logically, you are (as we all already know) Sedevacantists. And as Sedevacantists, you are outside the true Church”
You accuse people of telling lies and spreading tittle tattle and now you are doing the same thing. The SSPX is not, and never has been, sedevacantist. A picture of the Pope is on the sacristy wall in every SSPX chapel and he is prayed for in every Mass said in those chapels. I think that’s another apology you owe.
That’s very interesting – I didn’t know that and I don’t think many people know it (that the SSPX has a picture of the Pope in their sacristy walls). Thanks for posting that.
“Miles Immaculatae: To take that St Francis prophecy and apply it to yourself is totally self-obsessed and pure vanity.”
But he can’t help it! He’s a handsome devil with a heart of gold and teeth to match.
It’s only humble folk like you and me who would recognise that vanity for what it is, Alexander. We should pray for poor Miles that he repents of his wicked ways 😉
I don’t know a single truly orthodox Catholic, inside or outside the SSPX who would dream of receiving Communion in the hand. To receive from the hands of another lay person, making the sacrilege a double whammy, is completely unthinkable to any informed Catholic today. So, I hope that answers that part of your question.
I attended the papal Mass at Bellahouston Park when Pope John Paul II came to Glasgow. I was much younger then (although every bit as slim, glamorous, witty etc as I am today.)
I could not believe it. People around me eating, drinking, chatting all the way through Mass, stopping only long enough to cheer when everyone else cheered and to scream and yell when everyone else screamed and yelled. And the Pope was so far away, up there on a hill, that I’d have seen more if I’d stayed at home and watched the whole debacle on the TV.
So, when the announcement was made that we were to suffer another papal Mass at Bellahouston Park, my first thought was to find an excuse not to go and the best thing I could think of was to go along with a group to spread the Fatima message. Am I a clever girl or what?
You’re a mixed up guy, Alexander. You don’t know your apostates from your schismatics and you don’t know your obligations from your voluntaries. Nobody was obliged to attend the papal Masses – I made the mistake of going along to the first one, on the occasion of Pope John Paul II’s visit to Glasgow, but by the time Pope Benedict was due, the penny had dropped and I thought: “I don’t need to go there this time. WOW ❗ ”
OK, so I’m a slow learner, but with slim, glamorous, fashionable, witty and clever scrawled on one’s dressing table mirror, one can’t complain. I mean, one can’t, can one, have everything? 😀
Alexander, your not Mgr Basil Loftus perchance? 😉
*face … *palm
It’s a good job I take Prozac
*face … *palm … It’s a good job I take Prozac.
head… hands… it’s a good job I take plenty of chocolate – the energy one needs for this job, one just cannot describe 😉
“I regard this kind of disposition to be what the Freudians call ‘psychic masochism”.
“what psychologists call ‘internalised discrimination”
“You know this at a sub-conscience.level”
Have you ever heard of Cod-psychology…
“Cod psychology, the philosophical musings of one who has not formally studied philosophy. The word “cod” comes from first syllable of “codswallop”, and so the term carries with it a negative connotation.”
You’d perhaps be better off learning about something called “Confirmation bias”, that’s the modus operandi for CTS…
“Confirmation bias: People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position”
Editor: “why people who hate us … hate us!” Who said anything about hate?
Firstly, before I’m accused of “blocking you”, your latest post (11.40a.m.) went into moderation for no reason that I can see. This happens from time to time, so please do not think that you are being censored. That is not the case – yet. 😀
Secondly, would you publish an example of “Confirmation bias” as you describe it above.
All I can see is a thread discussing the long awaited appointment of a Bishop to the Diocese of Paisley, with some bloggers praising the appointment (either because they know him personally and he’s a nice person and not the worst possible appointment, or because they don’t know him and think he ought to be given a chance) and, on the other hand, some bloggers expressing concerns based on statements he has made to them or that are in the public domain. It’s no different from any other discussion about a public figure, so I’m at a loss as to the reason for your evident annoyance. It reminds me of something a friend said years ago when we were discussing the shocking group in England advocating a change in Church teaching on homosexuality – set up by parents of “gay” children. My friend said this is the litmus test. When it affects you, personally, would you still hold to the teaching of the Church? That’s what I’m seeing on this thread. A priest who has said the most unthinkable things (not God’s will that everyone be Catholics, he – Fr Keenan – wishes to bring Pope Francis’s “vision” of the Church to his diocese….) and yet people who would normally be appalled at this appointment, are now ambivalent about it. And all in the (usual) name of “charity”. No. A right thinking person keeps on alert, warns that this is yet another bad episcopal appointment in Scotland and THEN – if the new bishop changes his theological tune – welcomes the fact with open arms and offers all possible support. THAT is charity.
Thirdly, to answer your closing question – given that you have called us apostates and castigated us in various ways, I think “hate” is a fair description. However, if you love us really, say so and I’ll express my undying gratitude.
Here’s a deal, I’ll stop with the psychology, and you stop with the theology and canon law, i.e. we’re all apostates etc..
“However, if they could have gained entry, then we must assume that they would have refused to receive Holy Communion because it was given in the hand by Eucharistic Ministers? Or in other words, you considered it invalid.”
Before Alexander jumps to any more false conclusions about the SSPX and the conditions for validity, he might find this article interesting:
Many thanks for posting that link. I can’t believe that I forgot to quote Archbishop Ranjith (my own “favourite” at the last conclave) on Communion in the hand, when responding to Eileenanne’s mantra that it is “allowed”. It’s allowed by every Modernist in the Church – so there’s a surprise!
“Sadly there are many Catholics who no longer believe in the real presence. No doubt this has been due to the toning down, and in some cases the deletion, of these and many other symbols and signs of adoration. One such sign of adoration that has been drastically toned down is the practice of receiving Holy Communion on the tongue.
This has led Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, secretary of the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, to recently suggest the policy of giving Communion in the hand be revised or “abandoned altogether.”2 It is Archbishop Ranjith’s belief that the introduction of this practice after Vatican II has resulted in indifference, outrages and sacrileges toward our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, causing great harm to both the Catholic Church and to individual souls.”
And to think I’ve lain awake at nights wondering why Archbishop Ranjith wasn’t elected pope. I know I’m slim, glamorous, witty, intelligent etc. but now and then I think I’m a few bricks short of a bungalow…
“but now and then I think I’m a few bricks short of a bungalow…”
Or a couple of Hail Marys short of a rosary.
“…a couple of Hail Marys short of a rosary.”
I will add that to my list 😀
I receive Communion on the tongue and I’ve noticed that, whilst a Society priests places the host very deftly on the tongue, our PP fumbles and I’m always afraid that he will drop it. I don’t know whether it’s accidental or not.
That is a common problem – I’ve experienced it in the past as well. It’s not deliberate, I’m sure, but they haven’t been trained in how to administer Holy Communion on the tongue, which, as you say, the Society priests do without touching the tongue at all.
I am sure Fr Keenan’s appointment was only possible by his cosy relationship with the right people. Archbishop Tartaglia’s ‘sympathies’ were essential. Evidently, Fr Keenan has never done anything to wind any of them up. In fact, yesterday, I learned that Archbishop Tartaglia gave a talk at Father Keenan’s very own parish.
In fact, yesterday, I learned that Archbishop Tartaglia gave a talk at Father Keenan’s very own parish.
Shock horror! Archbishop gives talk in one of the parishes of his diocese – I now accept that the Church is in crisis!!
I don’t appreciate your sarcasm, Eileenanne. There are around 106 parishes in the Archdiocese, and the archbishop has not personally visited most of them. If you knew anything about Church politics, you would know that the Archbishop doesn’t actually personally know most of his priests. He has elected to give this talk on the ‘Living Tradition of the Church’ at Turnbull Hall because of his personal ties to the parish. Fr Keenan was a member of +Tartaglia’s council of priest advisors, i.e. my assertion (and the purpose of my last post) was to demonstrate Fr Keenan’s close association with the Archbishop, i.e. the reason why Fr Keenan has been appointed bishop. This is a boy’s club appointment. If Fr Keenan had genuinely been interested in having a Traditional Mass at Turnbull Hall, he wouldn’t have been appointed bishop of Paisley. Believe me. The fact the archbishop is hanging around the chaplaincy means Fr Keenan has done all the right things. +Tartaglia has publicly scoffed the Traditional Mass. He would not have graced the place with his presence had Turnbull Hall genuinely been a hotbed of Traditional Catholicism. Get real. For those of us who can read between the lines, this is significant. You choose to live in denial, so this means nothing to you, but don’t mock my observations. Would Archbishop Tartaglia have given a talk on the ‘Church’s Living Tradition’ at the Immaculate heart of Mary parish in Ballornock, or Sacred Heart Bridgeton when the last priest was there? As if. So if the archbishops gives a talk at a parish, in my opinion, it is a good sign the priest is cosy enough with him to be disorientated.
Does anyone agree?
I agree with you completely. I know from reading Catholic Truth that the Archbishop gave a talk in Fr Slavin’s parish and now I know he talked in Fr Keenan’s parish but I’ve never heard him giving at talk in Balornock as you say or at Sacred Heart. It’s not hard to work out what’s going on. It’s an “Old Boy’s Club” as you say. Is there even a remote chance that the two priests who offer the Latin Mass – i.e. Fr Morris and Fr Dunn – would be made bishops? I don’t think so for a second.
Did any of those parishes invite Archbishop Tartaglia to give a talk?
I am happy to say I know nothing of “Church politics” and care even less. You post makes me think you know a little, probably second or third hand tittle tattle and make up the rest by doing what you call reading between the lines and I would call seeing what you want to see.
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