Medjugorje: Spot The Heresies…editor
As we await the outcome of the Vatican Commission into the Medjugorje phenomenon, Michael Voris provides an excellent summary of the many reasons why it should be clear to anyone with even an elementary knowledge of the Faith, that whoever is appearing there, it is,most certainly not Our Lady.
So is this!
But where’s you avatar? The mystery man avatars drive me nuts! Get on the case!
I wonder if the Vatican Commission into the Medjugorje phenomenon will sit on the fence on this one. Stay absolutely dumb on the matter. It seems more likely a means of downplaying Lourdes and Fatima, where it was a rallying point for prayer especially the Rosary and penance as a means of saving souls from going to hell. Heresies coming out of Medjugorje is – Our Lady saying she is not the Mediatrix of all Graces. All religions are the same as far as Our Lord Jesus Christ is concerned, and that is just for starters.
I think this is the link that Michael Voris spoke about, it is an interview with E. Michael Jones who wrote on the subject of the alleged “seers” and “apparitions”.
Many thanks for posting that interview with Michael Jones. I look forward to viewing it later.
You are spot on in your analysis about Medjugorje. Medjugorje is the Devil’s answer to Fatima – no question about it and those who are supporting it are, to quote Lenin, classic “useful idiots”
This is fascinating information, but I do wish that Mr. Voris would make more of an effort to downplay his “dashing masculinity,” as it were, by buttoning up his shirt and shirt sleeves, and maybe even getting that mop of hair off his forehead. He gives the impression of looking for popularity and being rather impressed with his own looks, which undermines his search for the truth. Notice the difference between how he dresses and how Mr. Jones dresses.
You’re being a wee bit hard on poor Michael Voris. I am warming to him more and more. I think he’s becoming more and more outspoken and moving closer to where he needs to be to reach the “gloves off” stage and he’s almost there. So, you leave his mop of hair alone not to mention his “dashing masculinity”. 😀
I wasn’t immensely impressed with him when I attended his talk in Scotland – but his videos since that time have been very impressive – and I really don’t think he’s looking for popularity. I really don’t. In fact, I’d say he’s almost as humble as me ❗
And he’s not even got as much to be humble about…..
Watch it 😀
I really find it difficult to understand why so many people are deluded regarding Medjugorje. I have even met 2 people who claim their vocations came from visiting there. One is now a priest. There are plenty of other bona fide apparitions to believe in so why go for an unapproved one?! Anyway, I hope the vatican authorities nail this fake once and for all.
I seem to remember something once said by a seer (? St. Bernadette or a nun in her convent) about the sheer majesty of seeing the mother of God. A person would never be the same again and would most likely want to dedicate his / her life to God; certainly not the behaviour of those Medjugorje fakes!
“I seem to remember something once said by a seer (? St. Bernadette or a nun in her convent) about the sheer majesty of seeing the mother of God. A person would never be the same again and would most likely want to dedicate his / her life to God; certainly not the behaviour of those Medjugorje fakes!”
You have said very clearly what has been unexpressed in my mind for a long time. When I saw photos of the weddings of two of the seers, Ivan and his beauty queen wife and the wedding photos of another female seer and her husband, I thought it just didn’t look right. I know marriage is a vocation and very important indeed but after seeing Our Lady I don’t think it would be possible to live a normal life again. It would be even less possible to make money out of it.
There’s no way Medjugorje is true, IMHO.
As you know God can bring about good even in the midst of evil. If a man is a man of goodwill, then even though what started him on the path to the priesthood was not of God, the vocation can still be a true and good one.
I remember speaking with the late, great Fr Hugh Thwaites, SJ about Medjugorje in the early ’90’s, asking him if it would be okay to go there on pilgrimage. I still remember the look of horror on his face, telling me that he not only believed that Our Lady was not appearing, and that it wasn’t merely a human delusion or deception, but at its heart, Medjugorje was of diabolic origin and would lead many of the faithful astray, even as it seemed to be producing good fruits such as vocations to the priesthood. If I remember rightly, he saw it partly as the evil fruit of the atrocities carried out during and after the Second World War in that region.
My own experience with a Marian prayer group around that time was that when two members went to Medjugorje they came back burning with zeal, but it’s a case of “by their fruits ye shall know them”. For very quickly, they imposed a Medjugorje Marian spirituality on the group (previously it had very much been based on Fatima) and ostracised those who disagreed with this change, to the point that we would not be told of meeting times, lest we disrupt the mantle of love that Our Lady wanted to throw around our prayer group(!) Medjugorje just seems to inspire this divisive atmosphere in a way that Lourdes or Fatima does not.
If the Vatican is brave enough to pronounce and denounce Medjugorje as a fraud, can you imagine the backlash from all corners of the Church! How many more would turn their backs on the Church rather than bend in obedience to the teaching authority of the Church?
I suspect the politically correct option will be chosen of discouraging the faithful from going on pilgrimage there, but there will be no authoritative pronouncements, nor sanctions imposed on the publicly disobedient.
However, I hope I’m wrong
Your mention of Fr Hugh Thwaites brought back to memory the persecution he suffered for the crime of having had a letter published in our humble newsletter. A very nasty deacon in Aberdeen wrote to his Superior who immediately carpeted him and prohibited all contact with us. Talk about “the children of this world” and their worldly wisdom… Contrast that “zeal” with the number of allegedly orthodox and “traditional” Catholics who see shocking things going on around them, shrug their shoulders and say “somebody should do something”.
Sadly, I suspect you are right about the “politically correct option” being chosen to deal with the Medjugorje hoax, instead of the firm, papal leadership we so desperately need.
I note your concluding “hope” – unfortunately, I don’t think you’re wrong at all. If only you (and I ) were to be proved wrong. We could spend hours on the blog congratulating each other for being wrong.
Wouldn’t that be great? 😀 😀 😀
Ever wondered why people believe in Medjugorje? Let me explain …
1.) Persons visit regional Medjugorje centres. They are ‘normal’ or perhaps ‘nominal’ Catholics. They go because of the influence of their peers e.g. at school, or parish level. An example of a regional centre would be Craig Lodge in Scotland, or the Manchester Medjugorje Centre.
2.) At these centres persons encounter a phenomenal and energetic zeal, usually accompanied by a ‘Charismatic’ religiosity and intense penitential and spiritual practices, which heretofore had not been encountered in the regular Catholic family or parish life of the ‘normal’ or nominal Catholic.
3.) Many of us are not impressed by these experiences, usually because we perceive them as ‘weird’, and this could be due to our tastes, personality and/or previous authentic doctrinal formation. However, for many other persons these experiences constitute a new and exciting Catholicism by which they are profoundly inspired. The consequences of this are: they a) strongly desire positive evidence that these experiences are based on something real, and b) strongly desire to experience the same religiosity the people at the centre exhibit, which enforces and perpetuates their desire for consequence a).
4.) They travel to Medjugorje on a excursion organised by their regional Medjugorje centre or associated organisation. (This generates $$$)
5.) When in Medjugorje itself they are already strongly pre-disposed to receive positive affirming evidence.
6.) They experience preternatural or psychological phenomena. These are most commonly luminous phenomena in the atmosphere. But other things have been reported. Because of their pre-disposition, they interpret these phenomena as incontrovertible evidence of supernaturality. This is why Medjugorje believers defend attacks against authenticity with such zelous and evangelic militancy, i.e.: “the fruits of Medjugorje are amazing!” (of course, according to their subjective tastes) + “God showed me a sign” = “Medjugorje is real!”
REAL! *Real! (Real!) Real! Real!
Of course I have no doubt they experienced something ‘real’. But was is supernatural?
Some unfortunate persons have visited Medjugorje who were strongly pre-disposed to seeking positive evidence. Unfortunately, their peer(s) (whom they accompany at the time) have a preternatural or psychological encounter (or a combination of both). However, they themselves do not, since the conditions for diabolical interference or hallucination depend on the state of the individual. However, this person who greatly admires his peer wants to experience the ‘Sun-dance’ as well. They feel ‘left out’, ‘unworthy’, ‘un-chosen’. So they stare at the Sun, in the hope they too will experience the ‘miracle’ they are so desperate to find. There was no such miracle in the first place. Consequently, they irreparably burn their eyes. ‘Ocular Medjugorje Syndrome’ as I call it, has been reported as “Solar retinopathy following religious rituals” by the BMJ subsidiary the British Journal of Ophthalmology, as early as 1988! Just seven years after the first reported ‘apparition’.
One might find this somewhat amusing, indeed I sometimes feel tempeted to morose delectation. But this is serious! People are voluntarily frying their eyeballs in the southern Mediterranean summer sun.
“Of course I have no doubt they experienced something ‘real’. But was is supernatural? ”
Note remotely. Emotionalism rules at Medjugorje. Speak to any seasoned supporter of the hoax but only after you’ve checked that there is a doctor in the house. Their blood pressure must be sky high day in and day out. The emotional not the supernatural is a feature of this hoax.
You are correct about those who go there being pre-disposed to God’s grace, so it’s nothing to do with any alleged apparition. Indeed. the Bishop of Mostar is on record saying that if lengthy queues outside confessional boxes is evidence that Our Lady is appearing there, then she must be appearing in every parish in the diocese.
… Let us also consider ‘seer’ Ivan Dragicevic’s luxurious mansion in Massachusetts (which includes a swimming pool.)
Money is key to this hoax. Absolutely key.
Should I start worrying because I am a millionaire?
Did you make your fortune by staring piously into the sky and composing banal fortune-cookie theological snippets and by charging rich westerners thousands of dollars to pray with an invisible woman in your mansion in Massachusetts?
If not, then you should be okay.
I think I’ll start my own apparition. I have bills to pay! What do you all think? The first apparition is scheduled for 6pm at Saint Andrews Renfrew Street on Friday 21st February. Bring your video cameras please. Merchandise available. Private sessions with Our Lady and the Angel of Glasgow available on request, please email me about fees.
I can’t afford to go. Sorry, but the best of luck anyway.
If you are interested in a second hand Ferrari in a few weeks time you can let me know.
Pope John Paul II is personally responsible for the millions of souls who have been led astray by these false prophets.
The legitimate Church authorities did everything that was morally expected of them: the successive diocesan bishops, the inter-diocesan commission and the Zadar declaration of the former Yugoslav bishops’ conference all rule against the purported supernaturality of Medjugorje.
These legitimate rulings were widely and internationally ignored and contravened. John Paul II had the moral responsibility to enforce them. There should have been a direct Papal intervention in the 1990s. No such thing was undertaken. Because he supported Medjugorje. Perhaps not because he believed it was supernatural, but because it was convenient for the advancement of his geo-political vision. Medjugorje constituted in Southern Europe a resistance to Communism as Solidarity did in Poland. Jones says this in the above video.
There was no intervention. Benedict XVI couldn’t convene the International Commision on Medjugorje until John Paul II literally died. As a result, a papal intervention which could have taken place in the 1990s and avoided the corruption and disillusionment of millions of souls will not have occured until 2014. This is exactly similar to Marcial Maciel. Because Maciel’s movement conformed exactly to John Paul II’s vision of the Chruch, he wilfully ignored the accusations which were brought to him. John Paul II literally had to die before Joseph Ratzinger could depose Maciel. To his credit, the good Benedict XVI did eventually have Maciel dealth with. But this as well should have been done years earlier.
The evidence I present for this is contained in this video, at 5:08 . I have no reason to disbelieve this man. He is simple and doesn’t know about the workings of Church politics. He honestly recounts what his biological Father – Maciel – told his mother. His father, Maciel, molested him in the most depraved possible manner a boy could be molested. Maciel said “I am going to be in a lot of trouble when the Pope [John Paul II] dies”. The Catholic should have given him the requested settlement of 26 million USD.
In this video it is claimed JPII called the monster “Efficacious Guide to Youth”. And this is the man who is going to be canonised in April. It is a great sacrilege.
I suspect some more filth is going to come to the surface after the canonisation in April. It will provide incontrovertible evidence that Saint Pope John Paul II the Great (as Catholic have sold him to the world) was implicated in the cover up of sex abuse. This will heap untold misery onto the Church from the secular order.
Don’t miss Gandalfolorin’s latest post on the canonisation of Pope John Paul II – excellent. I think it’s on the Pope Francis Latest thread (either that or the Archbishop Lefebvre/Catholics losing the Faith thread.)
Will see the video tomorrow.
I am really surprised that Pope JP II supported Medjugorje. I didn’t know that. I’m disappointed.
I know everything about Medjugorje. I’ve been following Medjugorje. Ask pilgrims to pray for my intentions, to keep, to take good care of Medjugorje, because Medjugorje is hope for the entire world. And if I were not Pope, I would have been in Medjugorje a long time ago. — John Paul II
Our Lady of Medjugorje will save America — John Paul II
[Medjugorje is] the confessional of the world — John Paul II
[If I was not Pope I] would be living in Medjugorje as a priest helping to hear confessions — John Paul II
It is no surprise that John Paul II believed in Medjugorje. It is true, he was a Marian Pope. But it is inevitable his Madonna would affirm his false ecclesiology, and let him off the hook on Fatima and the consecration (which the Herzogovian ‘Gospa’ is totally silent on, which is surprising because she hasn’t stopped talking since 1981.)
What you have quoted is Medjugorje propaganda. Pope John Paul II could have gone to Medjugorje if he wished. He pointedly avoided going there, even though he could easily have done so on one of his many world tours. Pope John Paul II was not a fan of Medjugorje at all – far from it. There is no question of him approving of the place. He didn’t. The Medjugorje propaganda merchants have gone out of their way to say that both he and Pope Benedict, believed in Medjugorje – they didn’t.
Indeed, if you look at the material on our website, where the official documents are linked, I’m sure you will find a comment from the Bishop of Mostar, referring to a conversation he had with Cardinal Ratzinger in which he mentioned this propaganda, that Pope John Paul II believed in Medjugorje, and Cardinal Ratzinger laughed. Neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict had any time for the nonsense. I think they hoped it would just go quietly away – not that this excuses their negligence. They should have stamped it out firmly.
But make no mistake about it – neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict, believed in that hoax. No way.
So those are false statements? They must have been fabricated then. I can well believe it. Medjugorje is built on lies.
Absolutely – Medjugorje is totally built on lies.
Nothing would surprise me. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Pope John Paul II supported Medjugorje.
Going off topic slightly and referring back to previous posts, I have to strongly agree that Pope John Paul II’s canonisation is being pushed through with such great haste that when more facts surrounding his papacy come to light in the decades ahead, it will throw real doubt on the Church’s ability to infallibly proclaim someone a saint.
Just his inaction on the appointment of liberal papal nuncios, which in turn led to the appointment of the awful bishops we have now, and the scandals their actions and inactions have caused the Church, should be more than enough evidence to have halted the process before he was even declared Servant of God?!
When reason is undermined, faith inevitably falls. Reason shows us these men are not saints. But if that is infallibly declared, either Catholicism is not rue or we do not have a valid Pope (I don’t believe this, but bear with me). In general, that is why the neo-Catholics are in such a precarious position. Unlike the liberals, I don’t doubt they have faith, but they twist reason in trying to reconcile Tradition with the ‘New Orientation’ and they are setting themselves up to losing their faith. I was trying to tell a poster on this blog in General discussion why theistic evolution is contrary to reason.
A few Traditional Catholics I know of have admitted they will become sedevacantist if this Canonization goes ahead. I sympathize with them. It’s not that they lack faith one bit, it’s only because they have limited reason.
Fortunately, I will not be following their example. Because I have been presented with rational arguments, courtesy of this blog, why the canonizations will not be infallible. Infallible or not, the future canonizations are still scandalous.
There is a poster on this blog who insists the canonizations will not go ahead and God will intervene, because canonizations are always infallible, apparently. When they do go ahead (which they will, it is God’s will, a Chastisement), his faith will be gravely disturbed. He will either have to admit he was wrong to the Editor of this blog, apostatise, become a sedevacantist, or accept John Paul II is worthy of veneration as a Heroic example of Christian virtue. All of which are thoroughly objectionable, especially the first one (only joking editor 😉 )
I’m growing more and more certain that the tenents of the Medjugorje hoax are actually a synthesis of the modern crisis in the Church.
First of all, Medjugorje – like the current crisis – is absolutely rooted in false obedience. As has been said time and time again, the Bishop of Mostar is the legitimate authority on the authenticity of supernatural phenomena in his diocese. Two successive bishops have ruled that there is absolutely nothing supernatural going on at Medjugorje. However, they have been ignored. Now, proponents of Medjugorje claim they are doing nothing wrong, because, as one priest told me “the matter is in the hands of the papacy.” This is crackers, because it is only in the hands of the papacy because of his, and others like him, disobedience. It’s like being told not to do something by your line manager but doing it anyway. Then when a disciplinary hearing is called, you continue to be disobedient until the hearing is over. It’s nothing short of diabolical. Actually, I cannot for the life of me see how any Catholic would think Our Lady would keep encouraging the laity to be disobedient to the legitimate Church authorities. Never!
Secondly, what we see here is a weak hierarchy. Weak bishops, who happily contradict their brother bishops (whatever happened to Collegiality?), and weak successive popes, who just don’t have what it takes to stamp out this hoax.
Thirdly, there’s the wishy washy “message” of Medjugorje. Surely the Mother of God has better things to do with Her time than to appear thousands of times but not say very much? However, this “message” is attractive to many Modernists for precisely this reason. Others have said that Medjugorje distracts from Lourdes and Fatima. I think this is quite deliberate. You can almost sense the Modernists’ relief that “Our Lady” has stopped bothering them with awkward requests from Heaven! Thank goodness we don’t need to worry about the conversion of Russia: “Our Lady” never mentions it at Medjugorje. You’d think that being so fond of Bosnia she’d have mentioned it at least once on her holidays! But then Pope John Paul II performed the Consecration in 1984, so all’s well that ends well. The “mother of God” can go back to being a happy frequent flyer to Eastern Europe! This distraction from Fatima is truly diabolical.
I think we should always remember that something could be appearing at Megadodgy – but this “something” is NOT Mary Most Holy. Satan can appear as an Angel of Light. This diabolical shrine is one of the main dangers to souls today.
This is a very useful and informative post, thank you.
I have to say that I’m not massively optimistic about Rome suppressing “Medj” once and for all. If the Kiko and Carmen cult, otherwise known as the Neocatechumenate Way, can be approved, then virtually anything can.
On the matter of private revelations it is worth noting the following words from the “Treatise on Mystical Theology,” by Fr. Farges (1923):
“Whereas the divine vision always conforms to the gravity and majesty of heavenly things, diabolical figures will infallibly have something unworthy of God, something ridiculous, extravagant, disorderly, or unreasonable about them.”
Also, the official Church teaching concerning private revelation is explained by Pope Benedict XIV (1675-1758):
“[The Church] simply permits them [private revelations] to be published for the instruction and the edification of the faithful. The assent to be given to them is not therefore an act of Catholic Faith but of human faith, based upon the fact that these revelations are probable and worthy of credence.
“St. John of the Cross asserts that the desire for revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation.
“We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination.” – De Serv. Dei Beatif.
Really, the effective and final suppression of this jamboree is thirty two years overdue. I don’t know about elsewhere, but it appears to me as though a huge number of those faithful Catholics in Ireland who still do something a bit more than go to Mass on Sunday have been taken in by this hoax. “Medj” and EWTN appear to have a very firm foothold amongst “active” Catholics over here. No doubt it has something to do with lack of leadership and the stupefying banality of novus ordoism. Religious “entertainment” appears to be filling a void left by the war waged against sound Catholic teaching, devotions and worship.
Apart from the lies, disobedience and undermining of Church authority, financial exploitation, childish nonsensical content of the “messages”, Medjugorgje showcases Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement, surely another outlet for the Modernist obsession with feelings, experiences and vital immanence.
The case against the tens of thousands of “apparitions” at Medjugorgje and wherever the show happens to be in town being the appearance of Our Lady has been set down in detail. For me, the simplest, most glaring and irrefutable objection is Medj’s signature “message”, that of the heresy of religious indifferentism, which was evident almost from the beginning.
I might be guilty of repetition, but here’s a sample:
D) Oct. 1, 1981: “All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317)
“God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers” (“The Apparitions at Medjugorje,” by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)
“Each one’s religion must be respected, and you must preserve yours for yourselves and for your children.” (Kraljevic, p.68)
For me, all debate ends there. How any Catholic can even consider for one second that heresy might come from the mouth of Our Lady is beyond the beyond.
Here’s the verdict of Bishop Emeritus of Isernia-Venafro, and exorcist, Andrea Gemma:
“It is an absolutely diabolical event, around which numerous underworld interests revolve. The Holy Church, which alone can make a pronouncement, through the words of the Bishop of Mostar, has already said publicly and officially that the Madonna never appeared in Medjugorje and that this whole production is the work of the Devil.”
“I have to say that I’m not massively optimistic about Rome suppressing “Medj” once and for all. If the Kiko and Carmen cult, otherwise known as the Neocatechumenate Way, can be approved, then virtually anything can.”
I didn’t think of that. That’s scary. The horror stories I’ve heard about the Neocatechumenate Way are too much. I really had been hoping the Vatican Commission would see of Medjugorje but now you’ve got me wondering.
Thanks again for your fantastic posts which always throw new light on things for me.
“The Holy Ghost can indeed work miracles, but here isn’t just one spirit operating in the world. And when the door to the mind is left purposely open, there is no guarantee which spirit will answer the invitation” (Catholic Encyclopedia).
“The Devil rejoices greatly when a soul seeks after revelations and is ready to accept them; for such conduct furnishes him with many opportunities of insinuating delusions” (St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mt. Carmel, Book 2, Ch. 11).
Editor has already made the point that “Medjugorgje is the Devil’s answer to Fatima”, no doubt diverting a multitude of pious souls away from Our Lady’s authentic and essential message, as revealed to the three little shepherds ninety seven years ago.
“I know it was the view of the late Hamish Fraser,” wrote Michael Davies, “that Medjugorje was a means being utilized by Satan to subvert the message of Fatima” (Warning, p. 3).
Geoffrey Lawman, Co-founder of Approaches, Co-editor of Apropos, and Editor of Fatal Star, Fraser’s autobiography echoes that view: “Medjugorje weakens the message of Fatima, with its cardinal insistence on the conversion of Russia and of Communists a prerequisite for any peace and progress. Medjugorje talks airily of peace, but ignores the very precise recommendations that Our Lady of Fatima and the disastrous consequences that will follow if these are not complied with.” In fact, in Lawman’s view, Medjugorje “discredits the cult of Mary, and thus robs modern Catholicism of its finest spiritual flower. How do we expect Marian devotion to survive a ‘Lady’ of interminable verbosity who submits to indiscriminate ‘patting,’ incites her hearers to disobedience, and even stages a pantomime ‘transformation-scene’ between herself and Satan?” (“Medjugorje: The Other Side of the Coin,” quoted in Warning, p. 13). It would be quite a victory for Satan to so devalue the one destined to crush his head.
“It would be quite a victory for Satan to so devalue the one destined to crush his head.”
Yet again, Leo, you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head with that insight.
As for the reference to the non-existent lady “patting” – that rings a vague bell, but I am having difficulty trying to remember all the nonsensical claims of the Muddygorgy “seers”. Each one crazier than the one before.
Great post. As for this – “Megadodgy” … Love it!
There is such a difference between Fatima and Medjugorje.
In 1910 a masonic revolution happens, forcing the king into exile and targets the Catholic Church for destruction. Churches closed, priests and religious criminalised and not allowed to wear the garments of their state in life.
1917 Our Lady appears to 3 peasant children in Fatima, six times culminating in the Miracle of the sun in October. They are asked to pray the Rosary, offering sacrifices and penance for the sins of the poor sinners in the world. They are shown hell where sinners go. Our Lady requests that Russia be Consecrated to her Immaculate Heart so that this country will not spread its errors throughout the world.
In 1929 Our Lady appears to Sr Lucia to tell her it is time for the Pope in conjunction with the Bishops to carry out that request, which has still not been done.
Think on this. On May 13th 1931, the Bishops of Portugal Consecrated their country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Following that Consecration, the results upon Portugal was an unprecedented unleashing of graces which transformed the country. A Catholic government was put in place enacting Catholic laws.
Portugal emerged unscathed from the Spanish Civil War that erupted in 1937, and, from World War II.
If the Consecration of Portugal produced such results. What would be the outcome for Russia being Consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? It would be stupendous to behold.
But Medjugorje gets in the way. Miles Immaculatae, Leo and Petrus have put it much more eloquently than I could. Disobedience to the two successive Bishops who have authoritively on the authenticity of what happened in Medjugorje in that it was not supernatural.
Consider that the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, civil war broke out and many atrocities were carried out.
A difference from what happened to Portugal.
Disobedience abounds, not only the authority of the Bishop of Mostar and his successor. But the failure of Popes, Cardinals and Bishops to Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I have been told recently that it is not necessary for Russia to be Consecrated as the country is returning to the Orthodox Church. This is an insult to Our Lady and God Himself, denying such a request, as though Our Lady is a liar.
Our Lady told Sr Lucia that the Consecration will be done. But it will be late. How many chastisements will happen which we will bear before it is done?
“Disobedience to the two successive Bishops who have (word missing here, I think it will be “spoken”) authoritively on the authenticity of what happened in Medjugorje in that it was not supernatural.”
That is what really proves that Medjugorje is not coming from God but from the devil. In all the approved visions, the visionaries obeyed their priest and bishop.
In the early 80’s Hamish Fraser wrote along these lines…..if Archbishop Lefebvre all of a sudden claimed that what he was doing was the result of a vision he had had….!!…would the hierarchy all of a sudden roll over and join the SSPX…??….you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn’t .
What they have been doing with Medjugorje is canonising VaticanII…..see Our Lady comes and visits her “faithful” church……
Wouldn’t life be a lot easier if we were all gullible….???
“What they have been doing with Medjugorje is canonising Vatican II…”
THIS IS TRUE
Well said. However if I get to be any more gullible than I am, I’ll be posting a cheque to Leo for that bridge over the Liffey that he wants to sell 😀
INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON MEDJUGORJE
March 18th, 2010 8:20 pm
Everything having already been long since clarified by the successive bishops of Mostar-Duvno, it is reasonable to question the significance of this new commission? What more could learn the international commission of inquiry? which already has all the elements… What is the content of the message which the Vatican wants to convey? Will he try to make us take « bladders for lanterns »? It would be a shame!
This leaves me even more doubtful that I suspect the « charismatic » to use the deception of Medjugorje to impose their heresy to the Church…
It is really diabolical!
I do not understand that one continues to support, as if nothing had happened, a phenomenon several times formally condemned by the bishop of Mostar-Duvno, the local Ordinary being empowered, by exclusive right, to give a decision, as it is traditional in the Church for all « apparitions ». The bishop of the diocese is quite competent in this area, if only because of his proximity to the events.
Moreover, pilgrimages were also banned by the successive bishops of Mostar-Duvno, especially since some priests exercise a ministry illegally when they were suspended by their bishop. People who go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje behave therefore in a schismatic way.
As for Cardinal Christoph Schönborn op, Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal’s dignity does not exempt him to comply with the laws of the Church… He has nothing to do at Medjugorje, especially since he is not invited. He should be the first to set a good example.
Medjugorje? Obviously, this is a sham, one more which the charismatic nourish; the cause is finally heard.
The « charismatic » are, ultimately, only « pentecostal protestants » who surreptitiously infiltrated the Church… These exalted people avail themselves, abusively, of the Holy Ghost, as if the radius of action of the Holy Ghost was limited to their « little world », while He is everywhere and in all things, the most insignificant as the largest, and most often discreetly…
March 24th, 2010 12:39 am
Furthermore, the content of the alleged « messages » which conveyed the false « madonna » is completely oriented in the direction of « the great universal brotherhood » advocated by the lodges… Even the « gospa » plays « the great brotherhood » by letting fully excited pilgrims jostle her!… What a vulgarity!
If these so-called « messages » and « strange behaviour » proved true, frankly, it would be unworthy of the Blessed Virgin Mary Immaculate who is at the opposite of all this fuss…
Moreover, it is absolutely unthinkable that the Holy Virgin, the true One, might be a « factor of division in the Church » by urging the clergy and faithful to disobey the Ordinary and to revolt against him. This argument is, in my opinion, the most determinant to expose this sham.
I find it insulting to Our Lady that they dare consider that She can behave in a manner as ordinary and absurd.
ANOTHER DECISIVE TESTIMONY:
April 29th, 2010 1:20 pm
I went through twice, in Medjugorje, in the aftermath of the Bosnian war (I was a military stationed in Mostar). I did not find the fervour met in Lourdes; on the other side, I felt an unpleasant sensation in finding that the « merchants of the temple » (also present in Lourdes!) had invested too quickly at the scene. I never believed in these messages distributed daily, which seemed to suit everyone and anyone, in the style of « horoscope ». I met some French excited by « the Virgin of Peace ». They had, moreover, only this word (“peace”) to the mouth. They were the mystico-dingoes style, without any deduction of faith and fervour. I visited places that do not grow to prayer (a 4 or 5m picture of Christ is presented without the cross!) neither to meditation unlike many Marian sites I visited. I have never been attracted to Medjugorje. I went there as a tourist when I go to Lourdes as a pilgrim imploring Our Lady.
This is the first time that I witness in this way on Medjugorje. Why?
I came quite by chance on this site. Is it because of Providence?
But I know that I ask, every day, to the Blessed Virgin to protect me from the harmful and very dangerous influences of the websites.
Westminster Fly has emailed to say he likes Petrus’s “Megadodgy” but then adds: I prefer ‘Megaforgery’! I’ll be stealing both as the opportunities present themselves 😀
Due to his work commitments, WF isn’t able to blog as much as he would like but when he does, his posts are packed full of important information and little nuggets like…. Megaforgery!
Please pray for Westminster Fly, as he is quite unwell at the moment, and will be attending hospital to undergo an important scan on the 26th February. He says “the more prayers the better” so please remember him in your prayers at this time.
I shall pray for him as you require…
In Caritate Christi per Mariam (Médiatrice de toutes grâces) LD
Merci beaucoup ❗
I have roundly rebutted this error-ridden Vortex episode on my own wordpress blog – feel free to click my avatar and see my most recent post.
There is nothing in your email posted on your blog as proof of the truth of Medjugorje that is in the least convincing. On the contrary, your commentary is typically subjective. You ignore the objective facts about Medjugorje to substitute, instead, your own “feelings” and “experience”. You interpret everything as being “meant to be” – finding a place on the trip last minute etc. Trust me, I once went through the process of booking for research purposes, because I wanted to check that the scandalous charging of people to stay at Ivan’s own home, was true. It was. And I had a return email in jig time, offering me a place – which I decided not to take since a week in a seaside resort would have been better for my nerves than a week watching hoaxers milk folk for their personal gain in the name of Our Lady. So, your “evidence” of the truth of Medjugorje, is no such thing.
But as any judge in any court will tell you, once a witness has been caught lying even once, everything else he/she says is suspect. As the Bishop of Mostar pointed out, in his very first meeting with the “seers” (for which read “hoaxers”) they lied. And plenty more have followed. But that first lie is sufficient to prove the lie (literally) of Medjugorje.
So, thanks for dropping by – but I, for one, continue to be a “disbelieving Judas” (as I believe Our Lady called those of us who refuse to go along with the hoax)
Do you really think Our Lady would say that? Or that all religions are equal before God?
Of course not – the whole thing’s one giant (and lucrative) hoax.
Editor – I’m referring to my most recent post, specifically addressing the slanderous Vortex episode. http://dsdoconnor.com/2014/02/21/michael-voris-and-medjugorje/
Your blog post is really surprising. I think you are being a little disingenuous. What is absolutely clear is that you ARE a supporter of Megadodgy. Anyone who would take the time to try (and fail) to pick holes in Michael Voris’ outstanding video, when the whole “message” of Medjugorje is full of craters, is a supporter. Interesting that you mention Our Lady coming to earth to prepare us for the Second Coming, but don’t mention Fatima. Very telling.
You claim that you know of no supporter who would continue to promote and visit Medjugorje if the Vatican Commission rules the apparitions are false. Well, I know plenty who will do just that. What are the chances that “Our Lady” will denounce the Vatican Commission when they rule against this money spinning load of clap trap? Then these apparition chasing feministas (as most of them are) will really be out on a schismatic limb.
Of course I am a supporter of Medjugorje! My apologies to you if you thought I was trying to cover that up.
Just what is “telling” about that? I love Fatima.
And anybody who *wouldn’t* desire to correct errors, of which that Vortex is full, does not love the truth.
Medjugorje and Fatima contradict each other. They can’t both be true.
Doesn’t the ‘Gospa’ tell us this is her final communication with humanity before the end of the world, and that the end of the world is coming soon?
I might be wrong on that point. You’re the expert. Please tell me.
“Medjugorje and Fatima contradict each other. They can’t both be true.”
The “messages” at Medjugorje contradict almost every other Marian apparition. Or Lady would never say something that contradicted her messages elsewhere. As a friend of mine said ” I know Our Lady is getting on in years but she’s not doolally, she hasn’t forgotten her other messages and so she won’t say something different now.”
The Church does not teach that a valid ecstasy must be utterly complete and absolutely free from any possibility of being affected by external events.
But Daniel, why then did Vicka come up with the cock and bull story about Our Lady dropping the Infant Jesus, and wanting to catch him before he fell on the ground? That’s the explanation she gave for flinching. If she was having ‘partial’ ecstasy, she would have felt the need to lie like that.
I also do not see a contradiction. I think it highly probable that she does not dispense of all graces but does mediate all graces.
You’re really bending logic here Daniel. In twisting the meaning of the words the ‘Gospa’ allegedly said, you appear desperate. Read Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s treatise ‘True Devotion to Mary’ (for someone who claims to be a “consecrated slave of Our Lady”, I suspect you have): you will learn our lady is not simply a middle woman, rather she is a treasury of abundant graces which She freely dispenses according to Her own will and pleasure. She is omnipotent by grace, completely independent, and God is incapable of intervening in anything She does. A Protestant reading this would have a heart-attack, but consider it is impossible for Our Lady to anything contrary to God’s will, it is a mystery.
“Members of all faiths are equal before God. In the world, all religions are not the same…” Michael summarizes that as her having said “all religions are the same.”
Nobody is equal before God, not even the the elect. In heaven the saints posses varying degrees of glory. This statement is still dodgy. If one must appeal to pedantry to justify the ‘Gospas’ words, then you must admit that the ‘Gospa’ is very theologically imprecise and ambiguous. You would think the ‘Gospa’ would carefully choose her words beforehand?
I fear you may have misunderstood the nature of Church authority regarding private revelation. You are correct in saying a pronouncement by the competent authorities of constat de supernaturalitate (supernaturality has been determined) does no compel anyone at all to believe the private revelation. However, the pronouncement constat de non supernaturalitate (a character of non-supernaturality has been determined) does compel persons to disbelieve in the private revelation, since that particular juridical outcome implies there is a proven natural or preternatural cause. To believe it would pose a danger to souls. If the Pope determines that a character of non-supernaturality has been determined upon the advice of the CDF and the findings of the International Commission, you are profoundly naive if you think every Medjugorje believer will accept it. Some will become disillusioned and leave the faith. Others will form a parallel church. Justr wait and see. And it’s happened before. The Palmarian Sect for example.
The ‘Gospa’ claims she is preparing for the true end of the world. This is contrary to Fatima, wherein Our Lady promises a period of Peace. Other reliable prophecies indicate that this period will last a long time, and it must precede the rise of the anti-Christ and the true end of the world.
That is what worries me – there will be loads of Medjugorje supporters who will leave the Church if the Vatican rules against it finally. I think that’s why they will probably come up with some solution such as catering for pilgrims under the heading of “pastoral need” but without saying they approve or disapprove. I’ve read others saying that and I think it is the most likely scenario. It’s a cop out but that’s probably what will happen.
I’d be very interested in your view about this.
I think that’s exactly what the Commission will do. In better times, we wouldn’t even have a Presbyterian style committee to rule on this. The ruling of the Bishop of Mostar would stand. It’s the disobedience and pride of certain laity that has dragged this debacle on and on. Now we need a form condemnation from a sitting pontiff.
It’s at times like this I wish I could be elected pope. I would grab the first microphone I could find and utter four, simple words:
“Medjugorje is not real.”
I have a very dismal view that the Pope will pronounce a judgement of constat de non supernaturalitate. It seems to good to be true. I’m suspicious any pronouncement from the Pope that may be made soon will perpetuate the status quo, if that… I’ll believe it when I see it.
However, if they choose to do nothing, or simply reiterate the position if the Zadar Declaration (non constat de supernaturalitate), I’ll be very angry…
Because why would the ‘Church of Poor’ have wasted so much money on the Benedict-Ruini commision only to start right back where they began? It would have been a completely pointless enterprise. What would be the purpose of having met for four years? What reason is there for the commission to have delayed the submission of its findings since December 2012 if they had nothing new to say?
It is possible Medjugorje won’t go away until the crisis of the Church goes away.
If the Pope does put an end to it and people leave the church, they we shouldn’t be too unsettled by it. If Medjugorje was the primary motivating factor for their Catholicism, were they really ever Catholic in the first place?
Also, if the Pope says “it’s not real” or words to that effect, we’ll have a hard time convincing the Medjumanics he really said that. They’ll just say we’re lying. So the Pope will have to manifest his judgement in the most concrete and incontrovertible way possible. A letter from the Secretariat of State won’t do it. Any future judgement needs to be enforced, for example, through the co-operation of the bishops conferences and apostolic nucios, and further canonical interventions in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian province of Friars Minor. Based on the Church’s impotence in the matter for so many years, can we really rely on them to all of a sudden do this now?
Oh, and a great deal of the Church’s ‘best’ seminarians ‘found’ their ‘vocation’ in Medjugorje. Can the Church afford to lose them all? What with most of the clergy dying of old age.
“It is possible Medjugorje won’t go away until the crisis of the Church goes away.”
Wow! My thoughts exactly. Megadodgy is a compendium of the modernist crisis. Couldn’t agree more.
Whether the Church’s rulings on the validity of an apparition bind the faithful on conscience is an entirely separate question from whether Church rulings on the validity of an apparition are matters of faith and morals and therefore *infallible* and *irreformable.* I was referring to the latter, which was Voris’ error.
I was referring to the former.
However, the former, especially a judgement of constat de non supernaturalitate will still requires obedience. Intellectual assent to dogmatic truths is not the only aspect of Catholicism that requires our obedience. Legitimate juridical judgements do, for example, even if not ‘infallible’, or pertaining to ‘matters of faith and morals’.
I agree that such juridical judgments bind the faithful insofar as external actions are occurred (i.e. if Medjugorje is condemned, I will delete my posts supporting it, no longer promote it, etc.), but I do not believe they require full intellectual assent. I don’t think St. Faustina rejected the validity of all of her visions just because her diary was condemned (I suppose it’s a moot point because I believe that was after her death, but still, you get the picture.)
Now it should indeed go without saying that whoever rejects the fact of varying degrees of glory even among the elect in Heaven is promoting a heresy. But it would be quite obstinate to insist that she meant that merely by saying that members of all Faiths stand as equals before God. (Needless to say, such obstinacy applied to the words of Our Blessed Lord would have Him labelled a heretic dozens of times over!). What she means is just what Scripture says over and over again; that God shows no partiality, and no one can be saved without Charity in his heart (Vatican II makes clear that one’s Catholicism is only for the harsher condemnation if he dies without charity in his heart.) I believe St. Louis de Montfort also was the one who encouraged people (admittedly somewhat rhetorically) to try to un-do their baptism by bathing in goats blood if they choose to depart from the path of charity, because that’s only going to mean all the more condemnation.
My faith is not reliant on apparitions, nor on the current bishops, thanks be to God.
Just a wee heads up, Cardinal Sconborn visited Medjugorje, think on…….
I remember when Cardinal Schonborn visited Medjugorje – I think he was told by the Vatican to phone the bishop of the diocese and apologise.
Did he bring his balloons with him?
I can’t answer that without breaking the house rules!
The arrogance of prelates is astounding.
Where there is millions involved, sadly the money counts and the faith is sidelined by the “prelates”
The money spinning aspect is a massive clue. When St Bernadette of Lourdes was faced with visitors delighted to meet her, she would never accept gifts. Indeed, on one occasion, when one of them handed her younger brother a small soft toy, she took it from him and handed it back to the pilgrim, explaining that they do not accept gifts.
That will be some newsflash, the day any of the Medjugorje “visionaries” do that, since their vision appears to be one of material comfort and wealth, including lots of travel with inbuilt visits from Our Lady across the world.
Happily, I think I’ve only ever met two people who believe this nonsense and that was at a time when I knew next to nothing about it, and had agreed, in principle, to go there with a friend, but only after I’d explored costs and saved up since I was expecting any day now to be banned from using my credit card again. She was full of this “Daniel O’Connor” philosophy: “If Our Lady means you to go, she’ll send you the money.” I’m still waiting.
Too many people were duped by that non-sense. I have met some too and I gave their “experiences” short shrift.
If there is money involved it is not of Our Lord ( or Our Lady). The “prelates”, sadly, love the money all too well.
I went to Medjugorye in the 1980`s. Yes there was very questionable things going on, the guest houses were paying 60 per cent tax on their charges and I saw a large flagpole with the Croation flag flying. There were also allocutionists around who did not see Our Lady but she spoke to them audibly they claimed and the pilgrims paid to listen to them.
The visionaries were celebrities who gave talks to the pilgrims in the streets but the first thing I noticed was that they had little to say for people who were coversing with Our Lady daily. They just gave standard answers in English when the question was asked through and interpreter though remarkably the answers did not need an interpreter. They were just learned by heart responses.
I examined a video once and I was struck that they all seemed to acknowledge the apparition at the same time but the video above clearly shows Marjiana giving the lead. They were well trained but by whom? I believe it was a Fr Joso, the priest who first interviewed the children. But there is one point I still maintain and that is that Our Lady although not physically appearing at Medjugorye is nevertheless bestowing graces through the visiting priests who are not part of he conspiracy. The former bishop of Mostar did adiit this saying that yes there were fruits but through the natural workings of the Church.
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