General Discussion (4)

General Discussion (4)

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General Discussion (3)

If there’s something of interest in the news that’s not covered in one of the topic threads, or you have a question to ask, a comment you’d like to make about anything under the sun, more or less, this is the thread for you. However, please check first, to ensure that you haven’t missed a topic thread.  Readers have occasionally gone straight to the General Discussion thread to post news that is already the topic of a thread or to ask a question that is already being discussed elsewhere. So, do your Sherlock Holmes before posting here, please and thank you!

Feel free, also, to share your favourite spiritual reading books, prayers and devotions. Whatever.

Enjoy!

To read General Discussion Thread (1) click here (2) click here (3) click here

Comments (540)

  • greatpretender51

    Looks like Paul VI is next in line in the canonization hit parade:

    http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/archbold-why-dont-they-just-canonize-vatican-ii-and-get-it-over-with/

    April 25, 2014 at 12:45 am
    • Josephine

      That is just ridiculous. As the writer of that blog says, why not just canonise Vatican II and get it over with. Do they not see that they are making a mockery of the Church itself by all these canonisations, now all you need to be canonised is become pope.

      April 25, 2014 at 12:55 am
  • greatpretender51 April 25, 2014 at 12:48 am
    • Josephine

      It’s really interesting that the Italian newspaper called that accident a ““a tragedy full of disturbing coincidences”. Never a truer word spoken.

      April 25, 2014 at 12:56 am
      • extra omnes

        Josephine,
        I have checked the Italian paper to which you refer and it is the “Corriere della Sera” (a prestigious national broadsheet, headquarters in Milan). The article actually speaks of “dramatic coincidences” (drammatiche coincidenze ” and not “disturbing” coincidences. What troubles me most, however, is the interpretation peddled by some (no reference to you) that this is a divine sign of displeasure at the imminent canonizations of Pope John Paul II (in whose memory the cross was made) and Pope John XXIII (the victim lived in a street called after Pope John). What God would take out his wrath on a young man who had nothing to do with the canonizations and who was, to boot, also suffering from a disability that made him unable to get out of the way as the structure collapsed? Do you think it is right that some people, in this day and age, still believe in such a God? Has the Gospel taught us nothing?

        April 26, 2014 at 7:59 pm
    • jobstears

      Really interesting! Does it remind you of the unprecedented floods in Lourdes which effectively prevented the veneration of the blood of JP II at Lourdes?

      Wonder what is in store for us????

      April 25, 2014 at 4:52 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        I’ll probably get abuse for this comment, but I sometimes get creeped out by the veneration of the earthly remains of long dead Saints. While I admire many Saints, not least St Padre Pio and St Charles of Mount Argus, and I pray to them, so that they remember me and my petitions in their own prayers, but I just feel uncomfortable by venerating skeletal remains, a vial of blood or a reliquary with some strands of hair in it.

        April 25, 2014 at 8:54 pm
      • editor

        Catholic Convert,

        You are the second person to say you will “probably get abuse” on this blog.

        There is never any “abuse” on this blog. People offering correction or clarification or entering into a debate on a topic is not “abuse”.

        I hope you understand that I feel forced to decline to answer your latest question for fear of it appearing to be “abusive”.

        My advice to any other blogger who attempts to answer CC’s question is to take exceptional care to be tactful if, in fact, you are in disagreement with him at any level.

        April 25, 2014 at 10:01 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Why can’t you answer it? I have a broad back. And yes there is what I would class as abuse on this blog. I myself have had insults hurled at me, though not lately.

        April 25, 2014 at 10:18 pm
      • Fidelis

        Catholic Convert,

        I’ve been reading this blog a very long time and never seen any abuse directed at you. In fact, IMHO you have been treated with exceptional courtesy and patience by everyone, IMHO, given that you are constantly asking questions. I’ve never seen any abuse thrown at you here. You can’t just claim to have had “insults hurled” at you without giving an example.

        I am just hoping that this doesn’t come across as abuse on my part. It is not intended as such but I am so amazed at your thinking you get abused on this lovely blog, that I just have to say something.

        April 25, 2014 at 11:22 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Well…you are mistaken. It hasn’t been a regular occurrence, but I have been called by certain individuals (no names mentioned) ‘ignorant’, ‘arrogant’ and ‘protestant’. My crime?? Saying that Benedict XVI came across as cold and stiff when speaking in public. I’ve never met him personally, but I’ve heard that he’s warm and engaging in private. Sometimes you have to tread on eggshells.

        April 26, 2014 at 10:06 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        I am fine with the veneration of mortal remains in reliquaries. But what is creepy about John Paul II’s relic, is that it was blood taken from him by his physician during his life, which then had an anti-coagulant put in it to stop it from drying up in the vial. This was then kept, presumably for the purpose of veneration even before his beatification.

        We have a very squeamish attitude to death today. The Victorians were different. There used to me a practice of disinterring graves after a while and putting the remains in a ossuary. This saved a lot of space. There is a Church in Czech Republic that is adorned with skeletons. I like it. And then there are catacombs. There is a catacomb in Rome full of mummified monks, who are on open display.

        April 26, 2014 at 9:05 pm
  • Wendy Walker

    Dear Friends,

    Standing Against Abortion Liberalisation in England

    Please would you take a stand today against the further liberalisation of abortion practice in England?

    The 1967 Abortion Act allows abortions to take place so long as a number of conditions are met. One of these is that two doctors have formed a judgement reached in good faith that the woman presenting fulfils one of the grounds for abortion set out by the Act. If they do, and the abortion is to proceed, the doctors are then required to sign an abortion referral form. According to David Steel, the architect of the 1967 Act, when the Act was drafted and debated it was “assumed that the two doctors would see the patient”. This was also reflected in the 1999 abortion guidance. Crucially, however, this provision has been removed from the new interim guidance (see below) which makes it plain that neither doctor need actually see the woman. It suggests that they can form a judgement based on information passed on to them by other staff.

    This constitutes a very significant change and one which people from across England now need to urgently press the Government not to formalise. Timing is crucial because the Department of Health is currently assessing what aspects of their new guidance to make permanent and thus the statement that neither doctor need actually see the woman.

    Please would you write to your MP and ask them to write to the Prime Minister, David Cameron and the Secretary of State for Health, Jeremy Hunt asking them to ensure that both: i) the forthcoming guidance to independent providers of abortion and ii) the forthcoming internal NHS guidance on abortion, announced by the Chief Medical Officer on 22 November 2013, makes plain that both doctors should see the woman.

    If you don’t have contact details for your MP these can be located at http://www.writetothem.com

    Concerns about the proposed weakening of the two doctors’ principle were compounded this week by the revelation that 67 doctors have been breaking the law and pre-signing abortion referral forms. For more information about this, please read the blog by Philippa Taylor a CARE Consultant and Head of Public Policy for the Christian Medical Fellowship which can be accessed here.

    Yours sincerely,

    Nola Leach

    CEO and Head of Public Affairs, CARE

    CARE is a company limited by guarantee registered in England and Wales at 53 Romney Street, London, SW1P 3RF, Company No: 3481417, Charity No: 1066963, Scottish Charity No: SC03891. http://www.care.org.uk

    To unsubscribe please click here. If this does not open a new e-mail, please click reply and ask to be removed from the General Mailing e-mail list and quote our reference 110706.

    The 1999 Guidance says:

    ‘Other than in an emergency to save a woman’s life, medical practitioners must give their opinions on the reasons under the Act for the termination following consultation with the woman.’ (Department of Health, ‘Procedures for the Approval of Independent Sector Places for the termination of Pregnancy’, 1999, p. 9.)

    The newly proposed guidance says:

    ‘We consider it good practice that one of the two certifying doctors has seen the woman, although this is not a legal requirement.’ (Department of Health, ‘Procedures for the Approval of Independent Sector Places for the Termination of Pregnancy’, Annex C, 2013, p. 10.)

    PLEASE EVERYBODY DO WRITE IN AND ASK OTHERS TO ALSO DO NOT MISS THIS GOLDEN CHANCE TO HELP SAVE PRECIOUS LIVES

    April 26, 2014 at 12:26 pm
  • gabriel syme

    Damian Thompson (Telegraph) has delivered his first praise-worthy blog articles in a while, by criticising the chaotic style of Pope Francis, in particular his latest “hand grenade” phone call.

    (Thompson was a real cheerleader for Benedict XVI and yet seemed to change his spots remarkably quickly when Francis arrived on the scene. It is good to see him object to Francis’ unhelpful telephone chatter and the repeated confusion he has caused.)

    Should chatterbox Pope Francis think twice before ringing Catholics out of the blue?

    The Pope may have allowed this woman to take Communion, but his spokesman tells divorced Catholics that it’s none of their business? That’s madness. It’s even more confusing than the Pope saying it’s not for him to “judge” gay Christians, which has been interpreted by the media as evidence that Rome’s line on homosexuality is becoming less hardline. Somehow.

    my advice to “Father Bergoglio” is to think twice before pulling this sort of stunt. The Church is really fragile right now and growing more so despite the cult of Francis. Conservatives are still distressed by Benedict’s resignation; they include a new generation of orthodox young priests. Meanwhile, liberals are once again dreaming of a revolution in attitudes towards sexuality.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100269076/should-chatterbox-pope-francis-think-twice-before-ringing-catholics-out-of-the-blue/

    Pope Francis: we need ‘clear doctrine’ to emphasise that marriage is for life. (Meanwhile, that phone call…)

    the Holy Father talked about marriage when addressing African bishops yesterday………Textbook Catholic teaching, in other words. But – and I’m sorry if I sound obsessed by this – the small matter of the phone call isn’t going to go away.

    that confusion has still not been cleared up.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100269141/pope-francis-we-need-clear-doctrine-to-emphasise-that-marriage-is-for-life-meanwhile-that-phone-call/

    April 27, 2014 at 8:47 pm
  • Miles Immaculatae

    I am convinced that a lot of neo-conservative Catholics are the exact ideological Catholic counterparts of Protestant Fundamentalists.

    I suspect this for the following reasons:

    – They accuse Traditionalists of the following things:
    schism, heresy, disobedience, of ‘not being Catholic’, of fundamentalism, of being ‘like Protestants’, of Gnosticism, of Pelagianism, of anti-Semitism, of fascism, of Naziism, of Holocaust denial, of every right-wing ‘ism’, of pride, of being like ‘Pharisees’, of ‘misleading souls away from salvation’, of being ‘divisive’, of ‘ecclesial insurrection’, of attacking the Church, of hating the Pope, of being ‘essentially Sedevacantists’ even if we say otherwise, of being weird, of idolatry of the Sacred Liturgy.

    – They assert outright or, more commonly, intimate that we are not saved, or at the very least that our salvation is precarious, because of the aforementioned accusations.

    – Then next, without any sense of irony, or sign of mental illness, with sincerity, and often with an apparent concern for our souls, they state that they feel we are angry and judgemental persons, and that we are uncharitable and mean.

    – They justify this by their slavish, absolutist and intransigent belief in, and adherence to, the veracity, inerrancy, legitimacy, magisterial indefectibility, Divine origin, and quite often, the formal infallibility of every action, decree, reform, teaching and assertion of every post-conciliar Pontiff and every document of every post-conciliar Pontiff and of the Second Vatican Council. They regard the Catechism of the Catholic Church like it were the verbatim Word of God. They believe these things at the cost of undermining the basic principle of logical non-contradiction, and can disable their faculty of Reason and appear to experience no cognitive dissonance.

    – … Basically, when the Pope says jump, they say “off which cliff Your Holiness”.

    – They believe every Catholic must believe these things in order to be Catholic, and they constantly remind everybody of how they are “orthodox Catholics who believe absolutely everything the Church teaches”, or rather their understanding of what She teaches, and that they are “absolutely obedient to everything the Church requires, requests, stipulates and demands”, or rather according to their understanding. Subservience for subservience sake, like masochistic weirdos, even though before this era of Mass dissent, no Catholic ever thought like that.

    – This is similar to how ‘Scripture Alone’ Protestants relate to the Bible.

    – … Basically ‘Papolotry’. And the idolisation of canonical, procedural or doctrinal ‘obedience’ as the pre-eminent virtue even above Faith, Hope and Charity.

    – In spite of the above, they then assert Traditionalists are narrow-minded and legalistic! Shocked

    – Neo-Catholics do not defend themselves against the above egregious and repeated fallacious straw men by which I have caricatured them, but rather state they agree entirely with the aforementioned descriptions and are proud of them.

    – They exemplify everything Protestant Fundamentalists accuse Catholics of being. Similarly, neo-Catholics think Traditionalists are everything described in point one.

    Discuss…

    April 28, 2014 at 2:15 am
    • Miles Immaculatae

      They believe that the Second Vatican Council was an oracle whereby the bishops of the Church in union with the Pope could mystically consult the will of God and consequently they hold the documents of the council are inspired by the Holy Ghost and reveal the interior mind of God. Essentially, that it was a direct action of God upon the Church, and that the bishops were the medium God chose to communicate this. They therefore believe that any disparagement of the Council equals blasphemy and heresy. They believe a similar thing about the election of the Pope, as if the Holy Spirit were possessing mens’ wills and making them write a particular name of a ballot paper, or perhaps miraculously changing the names on the ballot papers before they are counted, or whatever. Of course this is all completely ridiculous.

      Why do they believe this? They know in their heart, whether they are conscious of it or not, that the Church is in crisis. So they attach themselves to this ‘fundamentalism’, in a similar way people attach themselves to Medjugorje, or the Charismatic movement, in order to help them get through it. The only proper way to get through it is to attach yourself to Tradition, although this leads to the demonisation and murder of ones moral reputation. I suppose it’s a martyrdom.

      April 28, 2014 at 5:07 am
      • jobstears

        Miles,
        If it’s any consolation, you are not alone! If I had a penny for every time I was called a hypocrite, Pharisee, uncharitable, know-it-all, in grave danger of losing my soul, I’d be rich!

        You are right, these folks are the Catholic version of Protestant fundamentalists, every bit as judgmental and unthinking. They are so smug and convinced of possessing the truth, that you can’t talk to them, they do not listen.

        I’m sick of hearing how we should relax and be happy because of Our Lord’s promise that He would be with the Church until the end of time. The same old arguments about the Holy Spirit guiding the Church – nicely refuted in the post by Westminsterfly, but I could never get one of these NOrdites to listen or read anything I’d send them without a bias, they shut their brains down the minute you try to get them to think. I suspect it is too much work for them.

        I agree fully with you, these folks attach themselves to their fundamentalism to get through the crisis in the Church. They are so busy blaming the Traditionalists for causing dissension and disunity in the Church. They are going to stay with the Church (implying we are not!) and trust in God in all humility!!!!!

        Add to this their slavish following of every change in the Church especially in the discipline regarding fasting, mortification and penance and one would be tempted to think theirs is a different religion. The latest gem is- modern man has really very little need to take on additional penance or mortification because of the stress of living in these times! As Editor would say, you couldn’t make it up!!!!

        I have given up trying to get them to see sense. Wasn’t it Chesterton who refused to debate an atheist because he said they weren’t even on the same plane so any talk was useless? For now, the best I can do, is pray for them and keep my distance!!!

        April 29, 2014 at 4:04 pm
  • westminsterfly

    Miles,
    I’ve posted this before, but it’s worth putting on again!

    On Papolatry
    Catholic Family News ^ | December 1999 | William Marra

    Posted on ‎09‎/‎11‎/‎2004‎ ‎20‎:‎46‎:‎30 by Mershon

    On Papalotry

    by Dr. William Marra

    Editor’s note: This is edited transcript of a portion of the speech “Alternative to Schism” given at the Roman Forum Conference in August, 1995. In this presentation, Dr. Marra presents a clarification that will help Catholics to think critically and correctly, when confusing and contradictory statements emanate from even the highest authorities in the Church.

    Belief and Obedience

    My great teacher, Dietrich von Hildebrande wrote four outstanding books on the present crisis in the Church. Recently, his latest book, The Charitable Anathema was published. I wish we could mail a copy to Rome. A chapter in this book contains one of the most important lectures he ever gave to the Roman Forum. It concerns the difference between belief and obedience. He called it the critical difference. It was masterful.

    The point is this: if there is a problem on a question of truth, and there’s a big dispute, and finally Rome speaks (invoking its infallible authority) and says, “This statement must be believed de fide”. Then this is the end of the dispute. Roma locuta causa finita. Rome has spoken, the case is finished. That is the end of it. Therefore, we owe assent of belief to statements of truth.

    However, practical decisions of Churchmen, even the highest authorities; the Pope, bishops, priests are something quite different. We do not say, for example, that a command of a Pope or decision of a Pope to call a council is true or not. We can say that it is wise or not … it is opportune or not. Such a decision in no way asks us to assent to its truth. It asks us to obey the command or commands that pertain to us. This is what von Hildebrande meant by difference between belief and obedience. And we Catholics are never obliged to believe that a given command, or given decision of anyone, including the Pope, is necessarily that of the Holy Ghost.

    The Limits of Divine Protection

    There is a kind of papalotry going around. It acts as if no matter what comes out of Rome, it must have been inspired by the Holy Ghost. This line of thinking holds, for example, that if Vatican II was called, it means that the Holy Ghost wanted to call it. But this is not necessarily the case. Convoking Vatican II was a personal decision of John XXIII. He may have thought God was telling him to call it, but who knows? He has no special charism that guarantees he would recognize such a decision as coming from the Holy Ghost with theological certitude.

    We can say that the Pope has the power to call a council. We can say that the authorities in the Church can call upon the Holy Spirit to guarantee, in a very narrow set of cases, that what comes from this council is de fide. (And nothing in Vatican II was pronounced de fide, Ed.)

    The glory of the Church is that it has supernatural help to define truth. It has supernatural help to guarantee that its sacraments are efficacious and so on. But who said that the decision to call the council was protected by the Holy Ghost?

    Some Clarifications

    Let’s look at certain practical decisions of any Pope.

    A Pope could command the suppression of a religious order. That happened a few centuries ago, the Pope suppressed the Jesuits. He was a little premature, I think they should have waited. This type of suppression concerns obedience, not belief.

    For all practical purposes, Paul VI suppressed the Roman rite. We have no Roman rite. Pope Paul VI thought he had the liturgical power to do this. Von Hildebrande called it the greatest blunder of Paul VI’s Pontificate. So to suppress a religious order, to suppress a rite, to name a bishop is a matter of obedience, not belief, and it is not protected by the Holy Ghost.

    We have 2,600 bishops in the Church. Does that mean the Holy Ghost picked all of those? That is blasphemy, friends. Do you want to blame the Holy Ghost for Archbishop Weakland?

    As already mentioned, to call a council is a practical decision of the Pope. A person may piously believe that God inspired it. But no one can say that this is an object of faith.

    Also, we must not believe that whoever becomes Pope is the man God wants to be Pope. This is a play on words that “this is the will of God.”

    Every theologian has always understood there are two senses to the will of God. The positive will of God and the permissive will of God.

    Now, we know that God positively wants holy people in the Church … “this is the will of God, your sanctification”. But when evil is done, this is through the permissive will of God. It is not something that God directly wills, but something that He permits when men exercise their free will.

    Before any conclave which elects a Pope, the electors are supposed to pray for guidance by the Holy Spirit. Now, if they are truly men of God, and they really pray, it is to be expected that the Holy Spirit will give them the right choice. But if they’re willful, ambitious, carnal men, and they are not truly opening themselves to inspiration, an unworthy candidate of their own choosing may be the result. That doesn’t mean that the man elected ceases to be Pope. That doesn’t mean that he loses the protection of the Holy Spirit when he teaches faith and morals. But it could be that this Pope will end up to be a disaster.

    Now how do I know this? Well, not because I know that any of the modern Popes have been a disaster, this is too controversial. But in Church history, there are many instances of disastrous Pontificates.

    We Learn From History

    Dr. John Rao is a good friend of mine. He is a professor of Church History. He is very unhappy with the so-called conservative people who, when they do their doctor’s degree in history, they will document all of the disastrous decisions of the past Popes. They will write about all the disastrous things that happened. But when it comes to the present situation, they’re mum. They believe that everything must be right. But if everything must be right and perfect in present Pontificates, then why do they write their doctoral dissertation on the disasters of Pope Honorius, Pope Liberius, Pope Alexander VI or anyone else?

    So, Rao insists that we learn from history, and that in no way can we say “ ‘X’ was elected Pope therefore that is the will of God”. No, it may be either the positive will of God or merely the permissive will of God. But it could be that the man selected to be Pope may be the worst candidate for the office.

    It is as if God says, “you carnal electors and you carnal people in the Church who did not pray enough will get what you deserve.” The Papacy is still protected, and will never teach with its infallible authority something as true that is false, but everything else is up for grabs. The given Pope might do every type of abomination … his personal life might be a disaster, he might be self-willed, and so on. It could be that he is a horrible person.

    He can also be a disaster for the faith even if he is a good person.

    The Papacy is not protected from such a calamity. And this is a point on which we ought to have a real dialogue with the so-called conservatives.

    Reprinted from the December 1999 edition of Catholic Family News MPO Box 743 * Niagara Falls, NY 14302 905-871-6292 * cfnjv@localnet.com

    April 29, 2014 at 10:00 am
  • catholicconvert1

    Can anyone here recommend the following books:

    Meditations and devotions- Cardinal John Henry Newman
    The dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ- Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich
    The story of a soul- St Therese of Lisieux

    They sell beautiful books at Baronius Press so I plan on buying them there.

    My Bible of choice is the traditional Douay-Rheims version, as translate by Bishop Challoner, but what opinions do my fellow bloggers have regarding the Knox Bible?

    April 29, 2014 at 2:37 pm
    • jobstears

      CC,
      The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord by Anne C Emmerich, is an excellent book.

      Another book I would recommend is The 24 Hours of the Passion by Servant of God, Luisa Piccarreta,. The Holy Face Association carries the book. (My children love this book, the fighting over it on Good Friday should have taught me to get multiple copies!)

      The story of a soul, is a classic, so you couldn’t go wrong with that one.

      Baronius Press does sell beautiful books! If I may offer a suggestion, I would say, splurge and get yourself a copy of The Little Office of Our Lady, that you will never regret!

      April 29, 2014 at 3:24 pm
      • westminsterfly

        As late as 2012 there was still a moratorium on Luisa Piccaretta’s writings:- http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/luisa_piccarreta.htm I don’t know if anything has been declared since then – update, anyone?

        April 29, 2014 at 3:51 pm
      • jobstears

        Westminsterfly,

        I was unaware of the moratorium on LP’s writings. I haven’t read the ewtn report yet, just skimmed it, but it looks like the US bishops had a problem with it- and that might very well mean the writings are probably too Catholic for them!

        The hours of the Passion are more of a meditation, prayers and an attempt to flesh out the hours of the Passion to enable the reader to pray without distraction.

        It would be interesting to see what other bloggers find out.

        April 29, 2014 at 4:28 pm
      • westminsterfly

        Hi Jobstears
        No, I think the moratorium originally came from the Abp of the diocese which is investigating her writings / cause. I understand that there are issues with some of the writings, but whether this is due to faulty translations or some other reason, I don’t know.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:03 am
      • jobstears

        Thanks, Westminsterfly. It never crossed my mind to doubt the meditations because the Holy Face Association is not a Protestantized Catholic store.

        Also, the purpose of the meditations was to make reparation for the offenses Our Lord suffered during His Passion, to console Him for His Sorrows and those of Our Lady. It’s very Marian, too!

        Does this mean Catholics aren’t allowed to read it?

        April 30, 2014 at 1:57 pm
      • westminsterfly

        In the Abp of Trani’s 2007 letter here :- http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/LuisaNotice23April07.pdf it states that her writings may not be published. I’m no expert on this matter, but I would have thought that it would follow that if they can’t be published, then they shouldn’t be read either – but that was 7 years ago. Perhaps you could email the diocese for further info. Email site can be found here:- http://www.causaluisapiccarreta.it/Pagine/CONTATTI.aspx?codpage=6 I’m sure they will have some English speakers among them. I know that the person promoting Divine Will in this country was (possibly still is) a prolific Medjugorje promoter . . .

        April 30, 2014 at 4:00 pm
      • jobstears

        Thanks for taking the trouble to look up the information, Westminsterfly….I didn’t see your post until mine went up.

        I’m not particularly interested in LP’s treatises on the Divine Will or in her spiritual diary. I saw the book on the Hours of the Passion and since it came highly recommended so I got a copy.

        Fr. Gobbi of Garabandal, I just learned, quotes from LP’s work on the Divine Will!

        April 30, 2014 at 4:54 pm
      • westminsterfly

        Fr Stefano Gobbi is dead now, Jobstears. He wasn’t connected to Garabandal, he was the founder of the Marian Movement of Priests and alleged that he had ‘locutions’ from Our Lady – and he was another dodgy one – supported Medjugorje and all sorts of weird and wonderful things. A letter was released by the then Apostolic Pro-Nuncio in the USA containing words to the effect that Fr Gobbi’s ‘locutions’ were his own personal musings and nothing more, and that Catholics should not consider them as the words of Our Blessed Lady. One minute Fr Gobbi was endorsing the phoney ‘seer’ Vassula Ryden, the next minute he was falling out with her . . . all very crazy. Rome also forced him to change the title of his books, which used to be called ‘Our Lady speaks to Her Beloved Priests’. All of these phoney seers’ books – which were very prevalent in the 80’s and 90’s for some reason, but sadly all too often still with us – are a tool used by Satan to distract good Catholics from reading the spiritual classics.

        May 1, 2014 at 9:10 am
      • jobstears

        Wow! I knew Fr. Gobi was sketchy, but had never heard of his ‘locutions’ nor of his books! Thanks, Westminsterfly, I do appreciate your taking the time to set me straight!

        You are right, these new visions and messages are a distraction from the spiritual classics.

        May 1, 2014 at 2:14 pm
      • Nicky

        Westminster Fly,

        That’s very troubling since I’m sure Fr Gruner has mentioned Fr Gobbi, i.e. by quoting him with approval. Everything is just crazy in the Church these days.

        May 1, 2014 at 2:20 pm
      • westminsterfly

        Nicky
        In answer to what you said below, although I fully support the Fatima Network position (i.e. the Consecration of Russia hasn’t been done and the full text of the Third Secret hasn’t been released), Fr Gruner and people in the Fatima Network – and I am sure they would be the first to agree with me on this – aren’t infallible and can make mistakes.

        May 1, 2014 at 4:37 pm
      • jobstears

        Westminsterfly,

        http://luisapiccarreta.co/?page_id=240

        From what I understood, only specific editions of 3 of her works- edited by others- were placed on the index. Apparently the original versions of the same works were approved by her confessor, St. Annibale, and printed with Imprimaturs.

        I have not read her spiritual diary or her works on the Divine Will. Had no idea she wrote close to 40 volumes!

        April 30, 2014 at 4:42 pm
      • Petrus

        I am sure the Baronius version of the Little Office has a lot of errors. I was warned off it by someone (can’t remember who). I bought the maroon version from Carmel Books and compared it to the Baronius and it seems the latter has irregular and incomplete prayer endings. I think the latin part is ok, but the English translation is botched.

        April 29, 2014 at 9:18 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        They have amended it. You probably have an earlier edition.

        April 30, 2014 at 1:29 pm
      • Petrus

        Miles,

        Could you tell me the date of publication on yours? I had the first and second editions. If they have brought out another revised version with the proper translation, i would snap one up as it’s a beautiful book.

        April 30, 2014 at 1:48 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        I am not sure of the date, I will have to check it when I get back to Scotland. I am down South at the moment.

        I think it is the third edition. I suspect it probably is all correct. Don’t take my word for it. I will lend you my copy after Sunday Mass and you can take it home a proof it.

        Yes, it is worth buying, the binding and typeset are a work of art.

        April 30, 2014 at 2:33 pm
      • Petrus

        Miles,

        If it’s the Third Edition it’s definitely all correct. Just been doing a bit of research. That’s brilliant news. I loved the Baronious version. The Carmel Books version is quite ugly.

        April 30, 2014 at 2:36 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        If you’re into collecting books, can I also recommend Folio Book’s edition of Saint Augustine’s confessions.

        April 30, 2014 at 4:16 pm
      • Petrus

        Is this discoverable on the Internet?

        I love vintage/retro/old things. I’m the only person to trade a new piano in for an old one!!! A lovely 1940s british made one though!

        April 30, 2014 at 6:15 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        I don’t know where to get it, my mum got it for me. It might be out of print, but it looks fairly new. Folio are always making books, so it maybe in their catalogue. They print loads of collectors/antiquarian books. My mum is a member and she gets really good deals.

        April 30, 2014 at 7:56 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Where does your family live again? Are you anywhere near Huddersfield? We could meet up for a pint (or 6) and put the Church to rights.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:04 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Cheshire. Bit far from Yorkshire I’m afraid. You’d have to come to Manchester. Could you do that tomorrow? It takes about 33 minutes on the train to Piccadilly from Huds. I’m going back to Glasgow on Friday you see. I wanted to go to confession at the Manchester Oratory tomorrow anyway.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:58 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Sadly, tomorrow isn’t a good day, as I’m starting my revision for exams. However, I would be more than happy to meet up sometime over the summer.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:13 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        okay

        May 1, 2014 at 1:31 am
    • westminsterfly

      I’ve read the Bl Anne and St Therese books – both great, especially St Therese. Have you ever read The Imitation of Christ? It’s a must. I don’t have the Knox bible, I stick with Douay-Rheims.

      April 29, 2014 at 3:47 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Is the Imitation of Christ easy to understand for a recent convert and relative novice? It’s just that I don’t have a particularly theological mind, and sometimes find it hard to plough through certain texts of a particular age.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:06 pm
      • Petrus

        CC,

        Absolutely. Go for it!

        April 30, 2014 at 8:28 pm
      • westminsterfly

        Yes, I would say so CC1, definitely. It is mostly made up of small chapters which can be used as meditations. There is so much ‘meat’, so to speak, in each chapter – enough to meditate on for quite a while! Nothing wishy-washy, and all straight forward. I’m no theologian, and it suits me down to the ground. Some chapters really speak to me while other are perhaps not so relevant, but I’m sure everyone will have their own parts of the Imitation that speak to them. I have a Fount Books version which is out-of-print now, but I think this would be the nearest to it:- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imitation-Penguin-Classics-Edition-Paperback/dp/B00BR5MBY0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1398932487&sr=8-3&keywords=imitation+of+christ+penguin

        May 1, 2014 at 9:25 am
    • Miles Immaculatae

      I agree with Jobstears. Get the Baronius Little office, it is a gem!

      April 29, 2014 at 8:41 pm
    • greatpretender51

      CC,

      I’ve always thought Douay-Rheims was the preferred Bible, but upon recently reading the introduction to Bishop Sheen’s “Life of Christ,” I’ve learned that he preferred the Knox Bible. So it might be worth your while to have both…

      May 1, 2014 at 2:45 pm
  • gabriel syme

    Bishop Joseph Toal has been appointed as the new Bishop of Motherwell.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/pope-francis-appoints-new-bishop-of-motherwell.1398767194

    April 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm
    • editor

      Gabriel Syme,

      I can’t help wondering if the transfer of one Scots bishop to (another) diocese is evidence that there’s just nobody bad enough to be appointed to be a new Bishop in Scotland?

      Yours facetiously….

      April 29, 2014 at 11:05 pm
      • Vianney

        Editor, aren’t you forgetting Fr Basil Loftus?

        April 29, 2014 at 11:57 pm
      • editor

        Vianney,

        You are, of course, right. Silly me. How could I forget HIM 😯

        April 30, 2014 at 12:20 am
  • gabriel syme

    In a new insult and humiliation of the Fransiscans of the Immaculate, their lay association – Mission of the Immaculate Mediatrix (MIM) – has been refused entry to a Pilgrim Church: Shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii.

    They have visited every year since 2004, but this time the prelate denied them access on Divine Mercy Sunday. The prelate claims he had to treat the pilgrims according to the Volpi sanctions and was helpless to do otherwise.

    A disgusting development.

    http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/a-new-blow-against-franciscans-of.html

    April 29, 2014 at 2:45 pm
  • jobstears

    Outrageous and thoroughly disgusting. All this under the guise of protecting the Church- from the heresy of Tradition.

    April 29, 2014 at 4:16 pm
    • editor

      Jobstears,

      I agree – this is a further slap in the face to the Franciscans of the Immaculate. Things are speedily worsening under this Pope. I hope they see the light and ask to be taken under the SSPX wing. I really do.

      April 29, 2014 at 11:07 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        If the Pope is penalising organisations loyal to the TLM, such as the FFI, do you think that the Pope will soon look towards other flourishing groups such as the Society of St Peter and the Institute of Christ the King for instance? I personally think that something massive is going to happen, and that the Pope, in the process of fulfilling his modernist agenda, will actually give the SSPX greater strength. It will turn out to be a slap in the face for the Pope, as all of the Seminarians, Priests, Churches and Parishes will ‘leave’ Rome if you see how I mean, and take their several million followers with them.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:10 pm
  • gabriel syme

    Look at this hateful, slavering tirade which Fr Ray Blake has received, from a priest who was a teacher of liturgy, when Fr Blake was a seminarian at Wonersh:

    I will only post the link to Fr Blake’s article about it, not reproduce it here (given the amount of profanity, venom and threats contained therein)

    http://marymagdalen.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/a-phlegm-flecjed-voice-from-past.html

    (in the comments, a barrister points out that the abusive letter actually contravenes the law).

    On Fr’s homepage, the article two below this one is news that Bobbie Mickens has left the bitter pill, after his hateful remarks about Pope Benedict XVI:

    http://marymagdalen.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/change-at-tablet.html

    These two incidents shine a magnificent light on certain factions in the Church, talk about “true colours”.

    However, It does not say much for their arguments (or character) that they are reduced to illegal hate-mail and drooling over the idea of someone’s death.

    April 30, 2014 at 9:01 pm
  • editor

    Wendy Walker has just emailed an important petition which I have signed and encourage everyone else to sign – Google are refusing to take pro-life advertisements. We must protest. Only takes seconds. Click here

    Thank you.

    May 1, 2014 at 10:11 am
  • catholicconvert1

    Does the Little Office of the B.V.M involve singing? I want this book as it would improve my prayer life, but I have trouble singing without music.

    May 1, 2014 at 5:29 pm
    • jobstears

      CC,
      I don’t think you are required to sing anything in the Little Office.

      May 1, 2014 at 7:27 pm
      • Petrus

        Job’s tears is right. You can speak the Little Office. The baronious press version gives you quite a detailed guide to the rubrics.

        May 1, 2014 at 8:02 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        I will purchase the Little Office. I’m glad it’s in Latin. I will recite the Latin, as it is such a spiritual and edifying language. It is also a reasonably easy language to pronounce and what’s more, i’ll have the English translation to look at. I read once that Abp Lefebvre’s father said the family prayers in Latin- you never know, I may be the father of the next Abp Lefebvre!!!!

        Just out of interest, what is Dom Prosper Gueranger’s book, ‘The Holy Mass’ about? Obviously, the Mass, but is it a prayer book?

        May 1, 2014 at 8:39 pm
      • Petrus

        CC,

        That’s so strange because I just ordered the book on the Mass last night. It’s not a prayer book. It looks amazing.

        By the way, if you are interested in meditation and mental prayer, then I recommend “The Divine Intimacy”. It’s an outstanding book.

        May 1, 2014 at 8:42 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        When it comes, please give me a rough idea as to it’s content. I know that Dom Prosper founded the Solesmes branch of the Benedictines, and it’s a shame that they don’t have a monastery in the UK. The Solesmes branch is the only growing monastic branch in France due to it’s commitment to the TLM and the Gregorian chant. It has established 4 monasteries in France and 3 in the USA recently, the most notable being Fontgombault.

        May 1, 2014 at 9:02 pm
      • Petrus

        Will do.

        May 1, 2014 at 9:05 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Thank you kind sir.

        May 1, 2014 at 9:40 pm
      • Petrus

        Hi CC,

        The Dom Prosper book arrived today. It is beautiful and is an explanation of the Holy Mass.

        May 2, 2014 at 9:07 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        So, it explains the origins, purpose and origins of the rubrics of Holy Mass? Has it been abridged, or is it the same as when Dom Prosper wrote it? I will purchase it at my earliest financial convenience. I’m thinking of buying shares in Baronius Press, I buy all of my spiritual reading there.

        I’m drawing myself a timetable up, so that I can form my spiritual life at particular times of the day. The Little Office with the Psalms will help in this. I just love traditional Catholicism and its spiritual life.

        May 2, 2014 at 9:34 pm
  • jobstears

    I agree with Petrus, CC, Divine Intimacy is an outstanding book. You can go through the book every year and get more out of it each time.

    The Precautions of St. John of the Cross are a worthwhile read (short and in prose).

    May 1, 2014 at 9:07 pm
    • leprechaun

      Jobstears,

      On the St. Joseph thread you mentioned a book by Pere Binet on “Favours granted to St. Joseph”.

      This book is available as a free .pdf download from http://www.saintsbooks.net and if one uses the “Find” option in their browser’s “Edit” tools and types in “Pere Binet” the link to a .pdf download is immediately revealed.

      I have taken a copy to store on my Kindle for reading in due course.

      Thank you for the recommendation.

      May 2, 2014 at 8:31 am
      • leprechaun

        Ps:

        I have just tested the above link and have to add that having clicked the link to http://www.saintsbooks.net, it is then necessary to click the sub-link “View all books” before going into Edit and Find.

        May 2, 2014 at 8:36 am
      • jobstears

        Thank you, Leprechaun, will check out saintsbook.net.

        May 2, 2014 at 2:23 pm
  • Petrus

    Editor,

    Apologies I didn’t get the chance to post on the St. Joseph thread. I am tempted to say I was “working” but since I am in need of St Joseph the Worker’s help to do my job properly, I will say nothing and act casual!!!

    I’d just like to say to the young men on the blog who might be discerning their vocation that St. Joseph is a great friend and intercession for this petition. He has certainly answered my prayers.

    ps. I’ve heard St. Anne is good for the wummin!

    May 2, 2014 at 9:10 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    Yorkshire Rose writes:

    GUADALUPE RELIC VISIT. The miraculous relic of Our Lady of Guadalupe is to visit St Anne’s Cathedral in Leeds. The dates are Sunday 1st June to Friday 6th June. May our Blessed Lady shower her blessings on the trad Catholics of Yorkshire. (And Lancashire, of course).

    Catholic Convert replies:

    Regarding the visit of the miraculous relics of Our Lady of Guadelupe to the Diocesan Cathedral of St Anne, Leeds, does one have to purchase tickets, or can you just ‘turn up’? I only live a train ride away so I plan on going. It’s my third favourite image of Our Lady, preceded by Our Lady of Fatima and Czestochowa and followed by Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn, Vilnius.

    May 3, 2014 at 12:53 pm
    • Yorkshire Rose

      The general routine is that one does just turn up and take a place in the queue. The first couple of days are likely to be very busy indeed, and then things may ease a little. However, it is well worth the effort, and maybe more than one visit can be done.

      May 4, 2014 at 1:08 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    I have been debating whether to buy this Daily Missal from Baronius Press. It has literally everything in it for every occasion, as you probably know. However, do any of you know if they (any company) do the Missal in separate volumes? I like this because his has the scriptures in it for every day for every type of Mass, but if I can only get to a Low Mass once a month, I don’t want to be lugging such a weighty tome about.

    May 3, 2014 at 6:26 pm
    • catholicconvert1

      It would help if I enclosed the link: http://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=4#tab=tab-4

      May 3, 2014 at 6:27 pm
    • Vianney

      CC, you can get a Sunday Missal which would be a lot easier to carry. Carmel Books have the Marian Sunday Missal and also My Sunday Missal by Fr Stedman. This is a small missal with very little Latin (which is ok if you are just reading the English) but has very good explanations for each Sunday.

      May 3, 2014 at 11:04 pm
      • Vianney

        I should perhaps add that both missals are available from the Bookshop at the Edinburgh chapel.

        May 3, 2014 at 11:08 pm
    • Miles Immaculatae

      Please take my advice CC. I have seen all the 1962 missals currently on the market and I am something of an expert…

      I strongly advise against buying a Sunday missal for the 1962 rite such as the ones Vianney mentions, because, well simply, they are incomplete. They’re not worth the money. Why not spend a few pounds more and get the full thing? That way, you’ll never be frustrated.

      The 1962 missal is considerably shorter than the Novus Ordo, because it follows a year cycle not a three year one, and weekdays that are not feasts (ferias) usually repeat the Mass of Sunday. Therefore, all the Scripture readings for every Sunday and weekday of the year fit conveniently in one volume. Separate volumes for both weekdays and Sundays only exist for the Novus Ordo.

      The Baronius press missal is large and heavy, you have mentioned that is a disadvantage for you, so I would avoid it. The design and typeset are also not very tasteful, they have really gone overboard with the Gothic script. I also met one of the publisher’s employees who officially proofread the publication, and he gloated about their editorial decision to include the Luminous mysteries, and the displeasure of their customers when this was discovered.

      One missal you must absolutely avoid is the Continuum press ‘Layman’s Missal’. The English translation of the Latin text has been sabotaged and is deliberately defective. It includes ‘for all’ in the canon instead of ‘for many’, it reads ‘and also with you’ instead of ‘with thy spirit’. It does not contain readings from the Douay Rheims, rather the Knox. It calls the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful by their modern equivelents: ‘Liturgy of the Word’ and ‘Liturgy of the Eucharist’. It’s criminal.

      I would buy the Angelus Press 1962 Daily Missal:

      http://www.carmel-books.org/roman-catholic-daily-missal-1962-p-530.html

      It is the best on the market. Angelus press is associated with the SSPX in America. I have two friends who attend the TLM who do not support the SSPX, but even they chose this missal over the Baronius because it is undeniably superior. This missal is compact and streamlined and is easy to carry. It contains everything, including various devotions and sacraments. There is nothing defective about its content. It is a reprint of a vintage missal and the layout is very attractive and spiritually edifying. This missal also contains excellent commentary of the Mass on each page of the Order of Mass in the middle section of the book. The Baronius does not have this. It is also the same price as the Baronius.

      (There are other missals on the Carmel Books site. These are reprints of pre-1962 missals. They are sought after by liturgical antiquarians, but they will not be useful for you because because they have been made redundant by the 1962 rite, which is the missal used for all SSPX, diocesan and Ecclesia Dei TLMs.)

      May 4, 2014 at 4:00 am
      • catholicconvert1

        Miles,

        Thank you for that very useful information. Please could you tell if, however, the Carmel Books Missal contain the propers for Christmas and Easter Masses? Also, does it contain all the Scripture for each day of the year?

        May 4, 2014 at 2:20 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        It contains the entire Holy Week Liturgy, and all the feasts, including Christmas. It even has vespers for every Sunday and feast. Nothing is missing.

        It contains the Scripture readings for every day of the year. Nothing is missing.

        It must be remembered however, that unlike in the Novus Ordo, the 1962 rite does not have unique readings for everyday of the year, i.e. the Sunday is often repeated for ferias (ordinary days/non-feasts) during the week. This is better, because it keeps it simple and in my experience it is much easier to read on a daily basis, and catch up if you miss a day. How they think the new lectionary is a ‘reform’, God only knows. The readings from the Traditional Mass go all the way back to the early Church.

        In the 1962 rite, repeated days are often replaced by Votive Masses: Our Lady on Saturday, Holy Angels on Tuesday, Saint Joseph Wednesday etc..

        May 4, 2014 at 6:32 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Very good Miles, I shall purchase this Missal at my earliest convenience.

        On a slightly more amusing note, I was at Mass this morning, and my PP, good man that he is, came to the end of his homily by quoting Evangelii Gaudium, and said, ‘the Holy Father, St. Francis’, short pause, ‘er, Pope Francis’. I thought, ‘Freudian slip, or what’? The things you hear!!

        May 4, 2014 at 7:59 pm
      • gabriel syme

        Just a minor note about the Baronius missal – they must have reversed their decision to include the luminous mysteries in a later edition (perhaps due to customer complaints?) as I have the Baronius missal and the luminous mysteries are not included (thankfully).

        May 8, 2014 at 12:16 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    I thought that the SSPX were opposed to the Legion of Mary because an SSPX Priest told me (no names mentioned) that the Legion had ‘lost’ it’s way. Look at this:

    http://www.sspx.com.au/legionofmary.html

    I don’t know, I just feel really attracted to the Legion.

    May 6, 2014 at 12:17 pm
    • Josephine

      I used to be in the Legion of Mary and have friends who still are so I know that the Legion has definitely “lost its way”. They now do “Eucharistic ministry” as a work task and no longer go out looking for converts which is offensive to the ecumenical mindset.

      May 6, 2014 at 1:06 pm
    • Miles Immaculatae

      In theory, the Legion of Mary is an outstanding model of Catholic life and apostolic mission. I was a legionary. But it has been affected by the ‘diabolic disorientation’. There are many holy, zealous and sincere Legionaries, but the perennial structures of the Legion have been poisoned. One day, it will be a powerful instrument of good for the Church.

      The primary objective of the Legion, is not actually evangelisation, but rather the sanctification of ones own soul first and foremost. Also, the core if the Legion’s spirituality is the Total consecration of Saint Louis de Montfort. Considering these two points, it is advisable that you read Saint Louis de Montfort’s ‘True Devotion’ and make the consecration. An indispensable part of this is the Brown Scapular and daily Rosary, in fact, these are more elementary, and Saint L de M assumes you do these already. You needn’t be a legionary to do these things, and if you do do them without joining, you are already a better ‘legionary’ than those actual legionaries who don’t do them.

      If you do join the Legion, you would be required to pray the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary in a group, at every fourth meeting (I know of one praesidium where this is not the case, but this is not the norm in the Legion). You would also be required to attend your praesidium’s annual private Mass, which would be the Novus Ordo, for the souls of departed Legionaries, and you would have no control over how disintegrated this Liturgy might be. Next, you would be expected to listen to an allocutio at every weekly meeting. This is a sermon, and you would have no control over the moral or doctrinal orthodoxy of its content. You might also be expected to attend a monthly Patricians meeting. This is optional for each praesidium, but if yours would hold one, you would be required to participate in a seminar. Again, you would have no control over its potential heterodoxy. If resisted any matter of practice or opinion, you would most probably meet opposition from other memebers, which is counter-productive.

      May 7, 2014 at 1:41 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Thanks for that Miles. I think I’ll give the Legion of Mary a miss. Although, I would have only been an ‘auxiliary’, as I simply don’t have time for the active membership due to studies etc. I do say my daily Rosary, on a set of beads brought from Rome by my sponsor that were blessed by the Pope. I refuse to say the Luminous Mysteries because they are not part of the original handed to St Dominic. I told my PP this, and he was OK with it. I did buy St Louis-Marie’s treatise, but haven’t read too much. That’s university for you, so much work makes you either too tired at the end of the day or sick of the sight of books. Over the 6 weeks i”l knuckle down to it though, and hopefully, before my 50th I’ll have made the consecration.

        May 7, 2014 at 6:42 pm
      • Eileenanne

        Miles Immaculatae:

        One day, it will be a powerful instrument of good for the Church.

        The Legion has been a powerful instrument of good in the Church for 92 years.

        You would also be required to attend your praesidium’s annual private Mass, which would be the Novus Ordo, for the souls of departed Legionaries,

        Not true. Each praesidium has a Mass offered for the souls of departed members each November, but no Legionary is required to attend. In fact, when I was a Legionary I never even knew when the priest was saying the Mass.

        …part of this is the Brown Scapular and daily Rosary,… You needn’t be a legionary to do these things, and if you do do them without joining, you are already a better ‘legionary’ than those actual legionaries who don’t do them.

        Not so. You may become holier by carrying out these devotions, but you will NOT be a Legionary. Why be a “Legionary” when you could be a Legionary?

        The core requirements for Legion membership are enshrined in the Standing Orders which are as follows:
        .
        First, the punctual and regular attendance at the weekly meetings of the praesidium, and the furnishing there of an adequate and audible report on the work done;

        Second, the daily recitation of the Catena;

        Third, the performance of a substantial active legionary work, in the spirit of faith, and in union with Mary, in such fashion that in those worked for and in one’s fellow-members, the Person of our Lord is once again seen and served by Mary, his Mother;

        Fourth, absolute respect for the confidential nature of many matters discussed at the meeting or learned in connection with the legionary work.

        At the heart of the Legion system is the need for active members to commit to both prayer AND a weekly work task.

        You might also be expected to attend a monthly Patricians meeting. This is optional for each praesidium, but if yours would hold one, you would be required to participate in a seminar.

        Not so. Patrician groups are relatively rare and no member is forced to participate in any particular work. A praesidium will always find suitable work for each member.

        Josephine:

        They now do “Eucharistic ministry” as a work task and no longer go out looking for converts which is offensive to the ecumenical mindset.

        Not so. Legionaries still do a wide variety of work tasks, including door to door visitation, the object of which is to invite people to become Catholics and to encourage lapsed Catholics to return. Not every Legionary will do this every week, but all praesidia are encouraged to have at least some of its members engaged in this work. In addition, many Legionaries spend a week of their holidays, on Perigrinatio Pro Christo travelling to another place, at their own expense, to spend a week doing Legion work full time.

        If by “Eucharistic ministry” you mean visiting the sick and taking them Holy Communion – why not? Visiting the sick was the Legion’s first work and it is still needed and valued today. If I were unable to get to Mass because of illness or infirmity, I would be delighted to be visited by a Legionary or anyone else who could bring the Blessed Sacrament.

        May 7, 2014 at 8:58 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Thank you Elieenanne for that very edifying response. I know for a fact that the 10 or so Legionaries in my Parish go knocking on doors and get in touch with lapsed Catholics. They also teach children at the local Catholic school, so it’s clearly a great organisation.

        Also, I thought lay people were forbidden from taking the Blessed Sacrament to people’s homes? Would they celebrate a liturgy of the Word? Did lay people do this prior to the Council?

        Finally, Eileenanne, if I may ask, why did you leave the Legion? Would you recommend it to me?

        May 7, 2014 at 9:51 pm
      • Fidelis

        Catholic Convert,

        As I think has been pointed out to you lots of times on this blog, if you participate in any organisation in a diocese you will be participating in the new orientation of the Church. I am flabbergasted that you are still asking about lay people touching the Blessed Sacrament, after all the stuff you’ve had posted to read etc. Eileenanne is quite happy to have a lay person bring her Holy Communion. I would never dream of taking Communion from a lay person. I would make a spiritual communion rather than displease Jesus by breaking the Catholic custom of never handling the Sacred Species. Any time in history when this was permitted, it was permitted only to people wearing white gloves and using pincers. No bare hands every touched the Blessed Sacrament unless they were the consecrated hands of the priest.

        You don’t seem to be at all clear in your mind about the seriousness of the issues caused by the crisis in the Church of today, even though you’ve asked loads of questions and received the answers. I can’t help wondering if you are more attracted to the modernist way of doing things than the Catholic way. I don’t mean that to be offensive, it’s just my observation. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it confuses me that you speak one minute about attending an SSPX chapel and the next about an edifying post from someone who would welcome Holy Communion from a lay person. I find that confusing.

        May 7, 2014 at 11:10 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Fidelis,

        Please be assured that I am not at all confused about my faith or where I receive the Sacraments. As it happensd, I’m not fussed where I hear the TLM said- SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP. Of course you SSPXers have some sort of superiority complex, and some of you have said that you would not go to an FSSP, ICKSP or indult Mass, because you won’t get the full faith there. I am not a modernist, but I attend the NO Mass out of necessity, not choice. Needless to say I will attend the TLM whenever God should be gracious enough as to allow the opportunity to present itself. Be aware also Fidelis, that I fully perceive the crisis in the Faith. I counter it in my personal prayer life through traditional reading, and saying my Rosary (without the Luminous Mysteries). Why do you think I would be attracted to the modernists>

        May 8, 2014 at 10:48 am
      • Eileenanne

        When Jesus chose to stay with us under the appearance of bread and wine, He KNEW there would be a time when lay people would handle the sacred species. He KNEW there would be people trying to get hold of a consecrated Host to use in “black mass”. He KNEW there would be occasional carelessness – and probably at every period in history – which would cause fragments of the Host to be lost. He knew all this and yet He still chose that as His way of giving Himself to us. While a Spiritual Communion is undoubtedly a valuable source of Grace when actual reception of the Host is impossible, I do not believe it can ever be preferable or equal to receiving the Sacred Species. If it could be, would Jesus not have instructed the disciples in making a Spiritual Communion – thus avoiding all the potential for abuse – instead of giving them His Body under the appearance of Bread and wine?

        May 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm
      • Therese

        Eileenanne

        That is the strangest justification I have yet heard for the irreverent practice of distributing and receiving the Blessed Sacrament in the hand. Christ KNEW of every sacrilege that would be committed in the future and that many would refuse His grace. Doesn’t make the sacrileges any the less serious, does it?

        Oh, and Jesus DID instruct His disciples in the making of Spiritual Communions – He did that through His Church.

        May 8, 2014 at 4:09 pm
      • Eileenanne

        The point I was trying to make is that Jesus wants so much for us to receive Him physically, he thought it worth suffering the abuses that would arise in the future, rather than only teaching about Spiritual Communion. I do not believe lay people handling the Blessed sacrament is an abuse per se. However, the Church lays down very clear gudelines on how we are to do it, which, sadly, are not always observed.

        I was responding to Fidelis who would make do with a Spiritual Communion rather than receive from a lay person. I hope he is never in a position where he has to make that choice as I believe it would be quite wrong to reject the opportunity for Holy Communion simply because it is not brought by a priest. The graces I would hope to receive when I receive Communion are quite unrelated to the status of the person giving me the Host.

        May 8, 2014 at 4:20 pm
      • Eileenanne

        I left when I got married and went to live in an area with no praesidium. I have not gone back because I am simply unable to make the time commitment that Legion membership involves.
        I would heartily it recommend it to you. At least go along and see for yourself. If you have a local praesidium with 10 members, you are very fortunate. Numbers are often lower. You would likely be joining a vibrant, active group. Don’t judge the Legion – or anything else – by the comments of the disaffected folk here. See what the Legion is REALLY like and make up your own mind. You can leave again any time you choose. Or get a copy of the handbook and read it for yourself. I don’t see how you could fail to be impressed.

        Re lay people taking Communion to the sick: It is allowed but I am not sure exactly what happens. I think there is some prayer and Scripture reading with the sick person, but don’t know if that is a exactly the same as the Communion services that sometimes happen in parishes. Did it happen before the Council? Not usually but there could have been exceptions, especially in mission territory. I cannot find proof of this online, but I am 99% sure I read in her biography that the Venerable Edel Quinn, the Legion envoy, was given permission to take Communion to people in far flung areas.I think that was in the 1930s. I’d be glad if someone who has a copy of the book to hand could settle that for me one way or the other.

        If you don’t care for the practice of lay people taking Communion to the sick, I am not sure you should blame the Council. I would be surprised if anything in the Coucil documents mentioned the idea, either positively or negatively. The Council gets the blame for many things of which it is quite innocent – especially on this blog!

        May 8, 2014 at 1:48 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        My praesidium must have been very authoritarian.

        May 8, 2014 at 6:20 am
      • editor

        I have a friend who is still a Legionary and she says it is wholly modernist now. There is no question of anyone criticising, in any way, the “reforms” of Vatican II, let alone the Pope. The essential mindset of the LOM is to “support” the priest and in normal times, that is excellent. Right now, it’s not. If a priest hands over his sick list for visits of a friendly nature, that is great. To take Holy Communion – absolutely not. Yet no Legionary today would get away with refusing. That would be viewed as dissent. Crazy times.

        May 8, 2014 at 9:55 am
    • Miles Immaculatae

      The link you give is an SSPX endorsed Legion group. Or as the neo-Catholics would describe it, a ‘schismatic Legion’. I am not aware of any exclusively traditional praesidia in Great Britian. All of them are part of the mainstream Legion, and it is this which the SSPX was talking about. The headquarters of the mainstream Legion is the Concilium, which is established by the Archdiocese of Dublin, do you see the problem? Whereas that group in Australia are independent, so they are free to practice the unadulterated spirit of the Legion.

      May 7, 2014 at 1:50 pm
      • Eileenanne

        Miles Immaculatae,

        I followed that link and don’t think this group is independent. While they do not spell out that they are affiliated to the Concilium Legionis, they do seem to consider themslves to be part of the Legion as they mention its origins in Dublin in 1921.

        I do hope you are mistaken and this group is not an “independent” version of the Legion. Right at the beginning of the Handbook is a request that if people are unwilling to run it exactly as prescribed therein, they should not start the Legion at all. It would be quite wrong to hi-jack the Legion’s name and history for some new organisation – even if it resembled the Legion in some respects – and I hope that is not what has happened with this Australin group.

        May 9, 2014 at 8:01 pm
      • Eileenanne

        Correction to last paragraph:

        I do hope you are mistaken and this group is not an “independent” version of the Legion. Right at the beginning of the Handbook is a request that if people are unwilling to run it exactly as prescribed therein, they should not start the Legion at all. It would be quite wrong to hi-jack the Legion’s name and history for some new organisation – even if it resembled the Legion in some respects – and I hope that is not what has happened with this Australian group.

        May 9, 2014 at 8:03 pm
      • Petrus

        Eileenanne,

        It’s just a shame that a group of Modernists have tried to hijack the entire Church and promote a ruthless, liberal agenda. This is far more wrong than an independent Legion. I’m sure Frank Duff would be horrified to see what the Legion has become.

        Sent from my iPhone

        >

        May 9, 2014 at 8:04 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    In the Little Office, just before the part where the Te Deum is said or sung, there is a section that ends with ‘&c’. What is that an abbreviation for? It’s probably gobsmackingly obvious and I’ve just got my daft head on.

    May 8, 2014 at 10:49 am
    • jobstears

      CC,

      The Little Office should have come with a laminated sheet that has the conclusions to all the prayers in the Office, it might be tucked away at the end of the book, easily missed.

      May 8, 2014 at 2:15 pm
      • catholicconvert1

        Why not put the complete text in, as opposed to a ‘laminated sheet’? Don’t you think it’s superfluous?

        May 8, 2014 at 5:57 pm
      • jobstears

        I think they don’t put the complete text in for the same reason they don’t print out the Glory be, Our Father or Hail Mary each time it is to be said – to save space, for starters, and because the conclusions themselves are so standard, you already know them. It’s just a matter of which ending you’d use depending on whether the prayer is addressed to the Father or to the Son.

        May 9, 2014 at 2:36 pm

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