Majority of Irish Catholics Reject Teaching on Marriage & Family…

Majority of Irish Catholics Reject Teaching on Marriage & Family…

ImageIrish bishops’ release of survey findings reveals gulf between church teaching and Catholics’ real-life experience.
19 March 2014 12:03 by Sarah Mac Donald

The Church’s teaching on marriage and family life is disconnected from the real-life experience of many Irish Catholics, the country’s bishops have acknowledged.

Giving a summary of the responses to the Vatican questionnaire, the Irish Bishops Conference said it is not experienced by many Catholics as “realistic, compassionate or life-enhancing”.

Many respondents expressed “particular difficulties” with the teachings on extra-marital sex and cohabitation by unmarried couples, divorce and remarriage, family planning, assisted human reproduction and homosexuality. Some found the Church’s position on these issues left them feeling “guilty and excluded,” the bishops said.

The leadership of the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) welcomed the bishops’ decision to release the summary, saying if people are asked for their opinion, it is important that the results be made known.

The group said it was “now beyond dispute” that there was a serious gap or disconnect between official church teaching on family, relationships and sexuality and Catholics’ beliefs and practice. It suggested that the laity, clergy and bishops should come together and search for ways for bridge this gap.

The bishops underlining that they had a responsibility to present the Church’s teaching on marriage and the family faithfully and in a positive and engaging way. But they admitted it must be done in a way that showed compassion and mercy towards those finding it difficult to accept or live the teachings.

Respondents to the survey also cited “immense challenges” for families in Ireland arising out of severe financial hardship, unemployment and emigration. Other difficulties identified were domestic violence, infidelity, neglect and other forms of abuse, as well as the constant pressures on “family time”. Some respondents also expressed concern about the limited amount of state support for marriage and the family.

The ACP, which represents over 1,000 Irish priests, also noted the similarity between the responses received by the 26 dioceses in Ireland and the 1,562 responses received by the ACP through its website. The group said these mirrored the results which had been published elsewhere around the world.  Source


Why is a blatantly dissident organisation like the ACP calling the shots here? We all know what they mean by their suggestion that ” laity, clergy and bishops should come together and search for ways for bridge this gap” – they mean the Church must change her teaching.

Wrong. The clergy and bishops should certainly get together with the dissenting laity but only to give them their marching orders. If they reject the teaching of the Church and God’s natural moral order, then they’re about as Catholic as Stephen Hawking. Or am I lacking “compassion” and “mercy” again?

Comments (86)

  • crofterlady

    Leo, may God help Ireland. The erstwhile country of saints and scholars is now a spiritual wilderness.

    March 22, 2014 at 8:17 pm
    • Josephine


      How true. If only there were more Catholics like Leo, it would turn around in no time.

      March 22, 2014 at 8:29 pm
    • editor

      Crofterlady & Josephine,

      In other words, Ireland has now joined the club. Just about everywhere is now a spiritual wilderness thanks to the new Mass, new Sacraments, New Rosary, New just about everything.

      March 22, 2014 at 11:15 pm
  • Graeme Taylor

    I know a number of men who left Maynooth 25+ years ago, they are now married with their own families having discerned that the priesthood was not their calling. However they have told me many, many very disturbing tales about a serious lack of Church teaching in their classes. Kneeling was just not on, the Rosary was frowned on etc. The “senior” clergy running this place are Judas priests.
    Remember that the bishop whose diocese Maynooth was in, when he retired he went on Irish National television stating that he had not believed in God for 30 years.
    The devil has been (an is ) running rife with all too many clergy. They are a disaster and the bishops are a disgrace.
    What amazes me is that we are asked to pray for vocations. What young man in his right mind, once he had been in one of these apostate factories, could commit his life to these “senior” clergy and bishops?
    These are very frightening times indeed.

    March 23, 2014 at 12:15 pm
  • Graeme Taylor

    Leo, I have just read the article you posted and it very much confirms what I have been told by men who went there. The arrogance of these clergy is astounding, it is simply abuse of power.
    The part on Our Lord in the Eucharist ( just like in the person next to us/ the word etc) is the garbage we got at secondary school. It is just the arrogance of the apostate at work.

    March 23, 2014 at 12:35 pm
  • Leo


    These are “frightening times indeed”. With satan screaming through the keyhole, the gravity of these days cannot be overstated.

    I’m convinced that the destruction of so many vocations, and destruction is what it was, was very deliberate and precisely planned. This is only hearsay, but one particular Irish Bishop has reportedly said that his diocese has too many priests! Lots of opportunities must be provided for lay busy bodies and wannabes, no doubt.

    The same playbook appears to have been used in the seminaries in the infiltration and assault against the priesthood in many different countries, as with so many other areas of the modernist revolution. No one can tell me that that is just some sort of catastrophic coincidence.

    If only all those with genuine vocations which were trampled on by the forces of evil had gone to labour in the Lord’s vineyard with the Society. How many souls would have benefitted greatly?

    Then again, looking at things from a different angle and given the mass, almost universal apostasy throughout the world, the oft quoted words of Saint John Eudes spring to mind:

    “The most evident mark of God’s anger, and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world, is manifest when He permits His people to fall into the hands of a clergy who are more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than the charity and affection of devoted shepherds. They abandon the things of God to devote themselves to the things of the world and, in their saintly calling of holiness, they spend their time in profane and worldly pursuits. When God permits such things, it is a very positive proof that He is thoroughly angry with His people and is visiting His most dreadful wrath upon them.”

    March 23, 2014 at 9:17 pm
  • Graeme Taylor

    Leo, I could not agree more. It is an organised approach.
    In some parishes in Edinburgh they have on their websites words like……we are a parish preparing for a shortage of priests……which means the “ministries” will grow and flourish, leading people into a protestant structure, we do not need priests brigade, we are the priestly people brigade.
    We already have an organised “service”, instead of Mass, led by “ministers” in a number of parishes, the Cathedral was one…..preparing the faithful. As if the busy priests could not say more than one Mass a day. It is awful, such liars. These “busy” priests already in most parishes offer 2 to 3 Masses on Sundays, but during the week, the “ministers” are brought out. What see through non-sense. The devil ensured in this arch-diocese (St Andrew and Edinburgh) all the Churches are locked all the time, Card. O’Brien and his wee group of pals have a lot to answer for.
    May God have mercy on us all. Amen.

    March 23, 2014 at 10:12 pm
    • Vianney

      Graeme, I agree with what you say but would like to point out that not all the churches are locked. The Cathedral, St. Patrick’s, Sacred Heart, St Albert’s and Our Lady of Loretto are all open during the day.

      March 23, 2014 at 10:37 pm
  • Graeme Taylor

    Yes Vianney, a few city centre churches are open as well as the Cathedral. However the arch-diocese isn’t just Edinburgh city centre. I for one live 50+ miles from Edinburgh.

    March 23, 2014 at 11:48 pm
    • editor


      Game set and match. That’ll larn Vianney 😀

      March 24, 2014 at 9:53 am
  • Leo

    As more and more of these surveys of the apostate laity around the world are published between now and October, I think a very much justified concern and scepticism are in order. I think any such exercises should be seen in the context of the revolutionary Conciliar novelties and the very pointed way in which Pope Francis is exercising, or not exercising, the Petrine Ministry.

    In the hands of modernist revolutionaries, surveys of the “people of God” represent a hefty battering ram against the Divinely-ordained hierarchical structure of the Church. Under the increasingly vaunted Collegiality and synodality programme, and Pope Francis’ marked aversion to outward displays of papal authority, and often apparent outright refusal to act like a Supreme Pontiff, such battering appears to be meeting all the resistance expected of a swinging door. Indeed we must pray much for the Holy Father.

    Over the coming months it might be useful to keep in mind the following expressions of the revolutionaries’ mindset. I don’t think there is much grounds for doubting that what is going on at present is very much part of their programme.

    These quotes are taken from the very informative book entitled, Animus Delendi – I, by Atila Sinke Guimares

    “The total Church exists in the local churches. Those who bear the ministry are not above the people of God, but rather, are included in it. They are nothing but servants of the people, who, as a body, are a priestly people adorned with the gifts of the Spirit.” Hans Kung, Truthfulness, The Future of the Church, p. 43

    “The laity should have the right not only to advise, but also to make decisions jointly with their leaders in the community, in both the regional and universal Church.” – What Should Remain in the Church, p. 21, Hans Kung

    “In actuality, we can say that the democratic element is appearing ever more clearly in today’s Church. We find this, above all, in the foundation of the institutional structure, in different ecclesiastic provinces and local Churches, and the relations between the Bishops and the faithful. Here, in many places, a more democratic structure is already apparent. This presupposes that the Bishop himself already has a new concept of how his authority functions. Once the episcopal image gradually takes its form within a democratic perspective, the supreme authority in Rome will be able to permit the local Churches, to a large extent, to resolve their own problems themselves. – Foundation of Authority in the Church, Edward Schillebeeckx, –

    “If the experienced and qualified counsel of lay people is taken into consideration at all levels of the decision-making process, then the whole structure already will begin to change. This incorporation of the laity must be carried out at all levels, including the Roman Curia and the Synod of Bishops.” – ibid

    Many will remember Schillebeeckx as the source of the following notorious statement which gave the “timebomb” strategy away when the very issue of Collegiality was before the Council and ambiguous wording was planted in the document, Lumen Gentium, as I recall:

    “We will express it in a diplomatic way, but after the Council, we will draw the implicit conclusions.”- cited from the Dutch magazine, De Bazuin, No. 16, 1965.

    “…horizontally today we have the people of God, where there are authorities but the primacy lies in horizontalism. That is what was recorded at the Council, which defined the Church not as a perfect, hierarchical society (the term that used to be utilized was societas perfecta). It was replaced by populous Dei, the people of God…Instead of a societas perfecta, there is the populous Dei, where are authorities but the authorities refer to the people of God. Therefore, this is the new constitution of the Church, which represents a complete change of position. I consider this to be one of the main characteristics of the Council. A vertical authoritarian regime was replaced…” – Dominique Chenu OP, Interview with Atila Sinke Guimares, 1983

    I’m not aware of any clear episcopal expression of what exactly this roll out of rejection of Divine Truth by large numbers of the laity is meant to contribute to the Church’s Magisterium or what aid it is meant to give them in their own sacred duty towards the salvation of souls.

    With all this talk of democracy and “listening to the voice of the people”, the successors of the Apostles would do well to remember that “the people” chose Barabbas over Our Lord.

    Caiphas and Judas also spring to mind.

    March 24, 2014 at 6:38 pm
  • Josephine


    This quote of you from Schillebeeckx really clearly shows what the modernists are up to:

    “If the experienced and qualified counsel of lay people is taken into consideration at all levels of the decision-making process, then the whole structure already will begin to change. This incorporation of the laity must be carried out at all levels, including the Roman Curia and the Synod of Bishops.” .

    They’re deliberately trying to completely re-structure the Church.

    And what you say about the “talk of democracy and listening to the people” – that’s what the new Bishop of Paisley has said, he wants to “listen”. If any new teacher arriving in a school said he/she was going to “listen” rather than teach, they’d be out of a job in no time.

    Your post today at 6:38 pm is again chock full of excellent quotes which really help me (and others, I’m sure) to make sense of what the modernists are all about. I especially like your own comment “the successors of the Apostles would do well to remember that “the people” chose Barabbas over Our Lord.” Well said.

    March 24, 2014 at 6:50 pm
    • Leo

      Thank you, Josephine.

      There is no doubt that there is nothing accidental or haphazard about the destructive Conciliar programme that has been unleashed on unsuspecting Catholics, right down to the lowest level of the Church. It’s just that the revolution has not been televised.

      The next time anyone hears the words “parish council”, just think of Hans Kung. That’s right. It was part of his wish list.

      “In each parish that does not yet have one, a parish council of men and women should be set up…whose function is to advise and decide on all important matters pertaining to the parish.” – Hans Kung, Truthfulness, The Future of the Church, p. 178

      As for Schillebeeckx, I think it would be difficult to beat this statement of his as a clear cut expression of Modernism:

      “A crass repetition of the past, be it of the Bible or the Council of the Trent, necessarily appears absurd to the modern man. Furthermore, the past that we interpret in light of today must also be considered from the standpoint of the future, because time and History do not stand still. Every dogma is open to the future; it provides a close-up of a movement that continues and in which it plays a role. Consequently, a definitive (atemporal!) interpretation of the proper meaning of a dogma will never be possible so long as the movement of History continues.” – Schillebeeckx, Church or Churches, as quoted on page 357 of Animus Delendi I, by Atila Sinke Guimares.

      Schillebeeckx was one of the most influential theologians at the Council.

      For centuries the principal target of the enemies of the Church has been the primacy of Peter, the dogma of the Vicar of Christ, the power of the Keys to the Kingdom held by one man, and one man only, no matter how humanly weak. Pope Leo XIII, in his prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel, included reference to “the iniquitous design that when the Pastor had been struck, the sheep may be scattered.”

      And disorientated irony of ironies, it appears those Catholics who are faithful to Tradition, who have a true Catholic understanding of the teaching of the Church on the papacy, who yield to nobody in genuine loyalty to the papacy and defence of the primacy of Peter, are the only ones not to receive a hearing in the Church of the New Advent, but rather calumny and exclusion.

      Hans Kung, the purveyor of heresy who remains a priest in “good standing” expressed his joyful satisfaction with the papacy of Pope Francis to date in a recent newspaper interview.

      “He has already achieved some things that can no longer be withdrawn,” Küng said. “It cannot even be foreseen what the changes already initiated mean.”

      “I have made many proposals for reform in the course of my life. But that a Pope could leave the papal palace in such an elegant way. I could not imagine. ”

      In terms of remarried divorcees Küng is convinced that Francis has pursued “a great strategy.” “First of all he surveyed the group of eight cardinals, then the whole College of Cardinals. In the fall there will eventually be a synod on the family. Of course, every step is a risk. But if Francis has the College of Cardinals behind him, he is no longer alone. He lays total emphasis on collegiality. ” Küng is convinced that “the admission of remarried divorcees to the sacraments” will be implemented, most of all desires of the Progressive reform. “There he is performing the mercy of which he so often speaks, and putting it into practice.”

      Küng concludes the interview by saying, is “happy” about Pope Francis. He had “always said his profession is not as a critic of the Pope.” “So I’m delighted that I no longer have to act as a critic of the pope.”

      Enough said, Hans.

      Indeed we must pray much for the Holy Father.

      March 24, 2014 at 11:18 pm
  • greatpretender51

    A couple of quotes from Abp. Lefebvre on “democracy” in the Church:

    1. “Collegiality:
    The doctrine, already insinuated by the document Lumen Gentium of Vatican Council II, is taken up again explicitly by the new Code of Canon Law (can. 336). According to this doctrine, the College of Bishops united with the Pope, also possesses supreme authority in the Church, in a habitual and constant manner.
    “This doctrine of a twofold supreme authority is contrary to the teaching and practice of the Magisterium of the Church, especially in Vatican Council I (Denz. Sch. 3055), and in the Encyclical of Leo XIII, Satis cognitum. The Pope alone has this supreme authority which he can communicate, in the measure which he judges expedient and in extraordinary circumstances.
    “This grave error brings with it the democratic orientation of the Church, with the power residing in the ‘People of God’ as it is defined in the new Code. This Jansenist error is condemned by the Bull Auctorem Fidei of Pius VI (Denz. Sch. 2602)….” (from the Episcopal Manifesto to JPII, 1983).

    2. From a 2012 sermon by Fr. Benoît Wailliez, Superior of the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) District of the Society of Saint Pius X:

    “(…) You see, my dear faithful, when we talk about the Second Vatican Council, and about one of the grave problems in the Church, we talk immediately about collegiality. That democracy was installed in the Church, where everyone says what he wants, thinks what he wants and opposes everything, even the Pope. Let us pay attention that we will not have that same situation in our Fraternity! We are not a democracy! We do not have collegiality, where everybody can say what he wants, can put things on the Internet, pressure people, leak confidential documents… This is an absolutely lamentable situation! In contrast, my beloved faithful, in an army we follow our leader who has the grace of state to make the decision in this situation.”

    Quoted on Rorate Caeli:

    March 24, 2014 at 10:49 pm
    • editor

      Great Pretender,

      Somebody needs to send those quotes to the Association of (Anything But) Catholic Priests in Ireland. Democracy is their “thing” while Tradition is what you do at Christmas when you put up the tree and pull the crackers.


      March 25, 2014 at 12:09 am
  • Leo

    I certainly don’t want to divert attention or anger away from the deeds of the demonic baby burners with this post. I almost think it’s out of place to be posting on anything else right now and I’m not very comfortable doing so.

    Anyway, purely for the record, and to have it on this thread before comments close, here is glimpse of what non-silenced dissident Redemptorist Father Tony Flannery, much portrayed as some sort of “victim of the Inquisition”, has sent to his “colleagues and friends”. I was originally going to add a few words, but I think this toxic incitement is self-explanatory.

    “Colleagues and supporters,

    This is an update on my schedule of talks on Church Reform, and also an invitation to spread the message for my next two gatherings. I have had a very successful run of talks so far, getting a great response wherever I have gone, and, to be honest, really enjoying them myself. The next two are as follows: Tuesday, March 25th:
    The Clarion Hotel, Sligo at 7.30pm Wednesday, April 2nd:
    The Stillorgan Park Hotel, Dublin, at 8.00pm.
    I would appreciate if you could spread the word about these events in whatever way is possible. And if I could be so bold as to request our priest members in Dublin to publicise the Stillorgan Park evening in their parishes in whatever way is appropriate. I would be very grateful. I have a real sense that we are living through a great period of opportunity in our Church, with the Pope opening up possibilities for all of us. But it is essential that we do what we can to promote his reform agenda at ground level, so that it will become an unstoppable movement for change. The full schedule of my engagements for April are posted on my website

    Tony Flannery”

    March 25, 2014 at 2:16 pm
    • editor


      Thank you for that update on the dissenting Fr Flannery who does “flannel” a lot, doesn’t he?

      March 27, 2014 at 10:48 am
      • Leo


        “Flannel” is one way of putting things, and has a certain ring to it alright. “Baloney” might be another charitable option.

        March 27, 2014 at 1:55 pm

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