Catholicism & The Commonwealth Games, Glasgow 2014 – The Problem…
Celebrating the Gift in Sport
Pope Francis gives blessing to Glasgow conference
Pope Francis has sent his good wishes and prayers to athletes and theologians gathering for a conference in Glasgow on the eve of the Commonwealth Games.
Sponsored by the Bishops Conference of Scotland, Celebrating the Gift in Sport will explore how sport and faith can combine to champion the gifts of each person – especially people with disabilities – while promoting values of solidarity and respect.
The conference takes place on Thursday 17 July (9.30am to 5pm) at Blessed John Duns Scotus church hall (Ballater St, Glasgow G5 0YT) in the Gorbals.
It will be opened by the Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Tartaglia, who said: “With his message for our Conference, Pope Francis has shown himself close to all athletes and to everyone who enjoys sport as a means of celebrating the sheer joy of the gift of life and of promoting the dignity and potential of the human person.”
The Archbishop added: “The Glasgow Commonwealth Games is an ideal opportunity for us to celebrate that gift and proclaim the dignity, respect and purpose that God bestows on all people, no matter their ability or nationality.”
Speakers at the conference include 2004 Olympic sprint relay champion Jason Gardener, Special Olympian Leanne Peter, paralympian Frank McGuire, former British Taekwondo champion-turned broadcaster John Cullen, Gordon McCormack chair of Scottish Disability Sport, and Professor John Swinton and Christina Gangemi of the Kairos Forum at the University of Aberdeen.
Members of the Cornerstone Community will tell how sport has changed their life, building up their confidence and providing opportunities to influence wider society.
Conference ticket (£40 per person) includes lunch – simply come along on the day and pay at the door
• Programme of speakers and topics
Comment
The entire tone of the “Games” material coming from the Catholic Church in Glasgow is ecumenical. Check out the Programme of speakers and topics for the above conference, held yesterday, if you haven’t already done so. The problem, arguably, is that this major event, which will be reported not only across the UK but around the world, is an opportunity missed for the Catholic Church. There’s been no conference organised to invite athletes, visitors, spectators, whoever, to come and learn about Catholicism, just some vague talk about celebrating “the Gift” in sport, vaguely linking “Faith” and sport. I’ve yet to be convinced that the Archdiocesan authorities mean “The Catholic Faith”, so, if you think you can do so, convince me!
Otherwise, share your ideas about how the Church might have used this event to spread knowledge and understanding of our Catholic religion. Should the Church be engaging in some good old fashioned evangelisation during the next couple of weeks when the city of Glasgow will be alive with visitors from around the globe? If so, what sort of events could have been offered? Or is it enough just to have some kind of “Faith presence” in place?
Comments (70)
It would fit Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Tartaglia and the other Bishops to address their failure to ensure our children receive proper instruction in the Catholic Faith. Each day that passes helps the “Freemason’s” achieve their goal, that is, the end of Catholic Schools in Scotland. I suspect more than one of these men are freemason’s.
Joseph,
That is what strikes me looking at the programme of speakers at the conference re. the Games in Glasgow. They had a great opportunity there to do some real teaching of the faith, some real evangelisation and what did they do? They invited Protestants to do the teaching and evangelising. It’s really evil the whole thing.
I’m sick of these Games already, knowing the disruption ahead and for what? For a load of sports activities that don’t matter one whit. I don’t believe all the talk about sport being some kind of cure-all for social problems. The bottom line is the whole thing is going to disrupt people’s lives and for no good reason. If it had been used by the Church for some good purpose, that would have made it easier to take but this ecumenical approach to “faith in sport” is just the last straw for me.
I do hate being negative so I am going to offer at least one decade of the rosary every day for all those involved in these Games.
Years ago, the Jesuits in St Aloysius, in Glasgow, used to offer evening talks for non-Catholics once a week. Something like that – if they could be guaranteed to be orthodox – would be appropriate to include in any materials advertising the Church’s role in the Games.
Having said that, as with everything else, the fact of the crisis (of Faith!) in the Church at the present time, compounds the problem. If the clergy and hierarchy themselves think one religion/denomination is as good as Catholicism, they can’t – by definition – offer anything truly Catholic to the visitors.
So, really, what we are seeing in the Church’s approach to these Games, is but one more manifestation of the crisis in the Church – that is to say, their own loss of Catholic Faith.
Remember that the Director of Catholic Education in Scotland has been quoted many times on this blog as saying he didn’t want to “impose any particular tradition” on children in Catholic schools, that they were just about offering a spiritual life of some kind. I think it’s that mentality which we see in the Commonwealth Games materials. I’ve seen some at the back of churches in Glasgow, and even though they mention Masses being available it’s very low key as far as Catholicism is concerned. The approach is definitely ecumenical.
It’s very important to reflect on this as these games are having a huge influence on all our lives just now. I must say, as much as I love sport I just can’t take the amount of disruption we are enduring. I rely heavily on public transport and services are either altered, diverted or cancelled.
I think there are a few key questions within this excellent thread. The first question is, should the Church be engaging in evangelisation during the Commonwealth Games? Well, yes! It’s a huge opportunity. As well as advertising Mass and Confession on leaflets in the back of churches, parishes near sporting venues should have foot soldiers out on the streets handing out these leaflets. I imagine the Legion of Mary out distributing prayer cards, holy medals etc. Editor has already mentioned the idea of talks during for non-Catholics. Fantastic!
However, the second question is animportant, but a rather sad one: would we really want modern parishes engaging in this kind of evangelisation? Are they equipped to spread the authentic, Catholic Faith? The answer has to be no.
As much as it pains me to say this, any leaflets, events etc created and run by modern parishes are very likely to do more harm in good. I can imagine the type of baloney that would be/perhaps is, on offer. “Celebrating Diversity and Equality” springs to mind.
So, in normal times, the Church should be engaging in this type of evangelisation and using the Commonwealth Games to spread the Catholic Faith. If any orthodox priests or lay groups decided to do that, then I would try and help out. However, modern priests in modern parishes might do more harm than good by spreading counterfeit Catholicism instead of the real thing.
Petrus,
I completely agree. That’s what I’ve been thinking. If my local parish was to print leaflets they would be full of adverts for charismatic prayer group meetings or Medjugorje etc.
If possible, it would have been good to see some Fatima literature distributed during the Games, but again, that would miss out some of the main parts of the message.
If any orthodox priests or lay groups decided to do that, then I would try and help out.
Are there no orthodox priests or lay groups doing anything?
Eileenanne,
Not that I know of. The problem is there’s only two such organisations in the whole of the United Kingdom and both are small.
I’m sure the editor will agree with me, it is very difficult to motivate and mobilise even orthodox Catholics. There’s a mentality that lay Catholics should “pray,pay and obey.” This mentality is what caused liberal laity, mainly women it has to be said, to rise up and demand “leadership roles” in the Church.
Petrus,
I do agree with you – despite being one of those women who has risen up and demanded a leadership role in the Church. You do know that Archbishop Tartaglia wishes me to start my own Religious Order, don’t you? He’s willing to buy a remote, uninhabited Scottish island and build a convent there. I’m to be the Mother Superior. He’s sure others will join me, eventually. 😀
Seriously, many thanks for your input, especially your post at 7.48pm today – I’d forgotten half of the stuff in which Catholic Truth has engaged, so, game set and match! You really said it all, and left me nothing to add. But I added stuff anyway – I’ve told the Archbishop that I’ll go along with his plan for the most part but a vow of silence is OUT 😯
Instead of the usual wringing about what is wrong, the supposed crisis and all the other things that appear to cause dismay among CT bloggers why don’t some of you put your money where your mouth is and organise it yourselves. You all seem to know sooo much about true catholic faith. I am sure your beloved sspx would provide the venue. Get off your [chairs], stop leaving it to others to do the job you want done!! Yourselves, or perhaps it’s all just wind…….
Thank you very much for your comment. I don’t know how much you know about us so I hope my brief comments will help you understand us a bit better.
We are a small, but dedicated, group of ordinary, lay Catholics. The only organisation of orthodox, traditional lay Catholics in the United Kingdom. As well as the Newsletter, we have organised several conferences, the last of which was at Celtic Park in June 2013. Over 100 people attended. This Conference addressed the crisis in the Church and advised others how to go about keeping and defending the Catholic Faith. It was amazing how many ordinary Catholics from mainstream parishes attended and reported how concerned they were at the crisis in the Church.
We also took to the streets to promote the Message of Fatima when Pope Benedict XVI visited Glasgow. I believe prayer cards were handed out at hymns of praise to Our Lady of Fatima were sung.
Last year, I joined with other supporters of Catholic Truth and several Catholics from ordinary, Glasgow parishes, in praying the Rosary in reparation at a “Gay Pride” March in George Square. Afterwards we chatted to some of the participants of the march.
There have been many other times we have taken to the streets, organised conferences etc. Some of our work is behind closed doors – meeting with individuals dismayed at the crisis in the Church. So, rest assured we are very busy and very apostolic.
I hope this comment helps you understand that far from only “wringing” our hands and complaining we do engage in a lot of Catholic Action. Feel free to come along to our next event. If you are aware of any other orthodox group in the United Kingdom then please let us know.
By the way, I note your mention of the “so-called” crisis. Many ordinary Catholics are becoming more and more aware of this crisis, which successive popes have alluded too, including Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor. I’m not sure if you are aware of the Message of Fatima, but a very good explanation is found here:
http://www.fatima.org
If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.
I am flabbergasted at your reaction to “Celebrating the gift in sport”. It was an absolutely orthodox, faithful day. In fact the Legion of Mary had a very well-attended stall in the exhibition!
Amicus,
I’m delighted that the above event was orthodox! Could you provide examples of this orthodoxy? In particular, I’d love to know what the Legion of Mary distributed…
Funnily enough, conferences are great for this kind of encounter – an ideal opportunity for learning from others and sharing one’s Faith. Much better than blog comment threads.
What saddens me is that whilst even here trumpeting the value in what Catholic Truth Scotland has done in inviting people together in this medium previously, the same courtesy was not extended to this event. To “report” on Celebrating the gift in sport it after the fact in such a negative way, having apparently made no effort to participate, is rather poor and does the work of evangelisation no service whatsoever.
Amicus,
Your understanding of evangelisation is flawed. Evangelisation is not about “learning from others and sharing one’s faith.” There is only one faith. There is only one Church. There is only one means of salvation.
To affirm someone in their false religion is a grave error. Evangelisation is about spreading the Word of God and leading souls to the one, true Church. Is that what happened at this conference?
Amicus,
I repeat my requests I made to you earlier:
“Could you provide examples of this orthodoxy? In particular, I’d love to know what the Legion of Mary distributed…”
Petrus,
I feel we have reached the end of mutually upbuilding conversation, if such was ever possible here. My only point really was that “seeing is believing” – why stand on the touchline and make unhelpful assumptions from a programme, rather than attend?
If all Catholic Truth Scotland has to offer to Glasgow 2014 is a demolition of a landmark conference no stalwarts apparently attended, then I am disappointed and think I have no place here. I might as well get an early night before my next Clydesider shift tomorrow. Funny the people you can draw to Christ through volunteering with them. Honey versus vinegar! Goodnight all!
Amicus,
It’s a pity you couldn’t offer any examples of orthodoxy. However, if you wish to join in any of our discussion you will be made most welcome.
Amicus,
“Honey Versus Vinegar” is the approach St Francis de Sales exhorts us to adopt when dealing with sinners. NOT with those who are peddling errors and heresies. Indeed, he has stern words for those who abandoned the Church to enter what he termed their “pretended Church” at the time of the Reformation, when his hard hitting sermons won 72,000 souls back to the one, true Faith.
As for your jibe that we are doing nothing more than “demolishing” what you describe as “a landmark conference” – not true. Firstly, this was no great Catholic event but a manifestly ecumenical event, scandalously organised in the name of the Archdiocese of Glasgow at which Protestants and other non-Catholics clearly dominated the proceedings. So, “landmark” for the non-Catholic communities, maybe, but for Catholicism, it was one more slap in the face from the faithless clergy and hierarchy who organised and participated in it. Their names are there, writ large on the programme, and not one of them a surprise to any informed Catholic.
Secondly, this thread invited bloggers to offer ideas for the kind of activities which the Archdiocese of Glasgow might have offered, which may have served to spark the real “gift of faith” – and, perhaps, in due course, have brought souls closer to the Church of Christ.
Thus, bloggers are invited to offer imaginative and very positive responses to the influx of visitors expected in Glasgow for the Games. Possibly, readers of this blog may be motivated to buy some miraculous medals and leaflets or obtain some Fatima literature, and keep it to hand for any opportunities that may arise in conversations with people spending time here over the next couple of weeks. That is, of course, if we can manage to get out and about at all – from the announcements about the forthcoming travel disruption, we may find ourselves lucky if we can catch a word with the postman.
Far from being a “landmark” event, then, the “Gift of Faith in Sport” conference appears to have been – in Catholic terms – just one more wasted opportunity. Such is life in the Land of Ecumania.
Amicus Curiae,
I’ve just been looking at the programme of speakers for the conference and copied the section on “Celebrating Faith in Sport”
Third Session: Celebrating Faith in Sport Chair: Very Rev Bill Hewitt
14.05 The Art of Participation John Cullen
14.25 Run the Straight Race Graham Monteith
14.40 Faith, Sport and the Person: Witness to the World Prof John Swinton
15.00 Questions and Answers to all Speakers Very Rev Bill Hewitt
Would you please tell me what was said in that session, as I can’t see any Catholic names that I recognise there. Were there any Catholics speaking about the Catholic faith at all? There doesn’t seem to be in that session. What was said about Faith in sport – I’d really like to know from someone who was present. At £40 a ticket, we couldn’t afford to go so I would appreciate your reporting back on the above session. Thanks.
Fidelis,
The Very Rev Bill Hewitt is a Church of Scotland minister and former Moderator of the Church of Scotland.
Since the event was described as “orthodox” by our friend above, I look forward to hearing how the Dogma of “Outside the Church there is no salvation” was presented to Very Rev. Bill Hewitt. I also look forward to finding out if the Legion of Mary spoke to him, explained the beliefs of the Catholic Church and perhaps offered him a miraculous medal.
Yes, Miraculous Medals were indeed available for delegates at the Legion of Mary stall. I have no idea what members of the praesidium might have given or said to those who visited.
Amicus,
You said the conference was “orthodox”. How do you know this if you have no idea “what was said”?
I bet you all the money in my pocket, against all the money in your pocket that Bill Hewitt wasn’t offered a Miraculous Medal.
Petrus,
I, too, look forward to Amicus Curiae telling us precisely how the Catholic Church was presented to the Protestants and others attending that conference. Given that it’s presented in parishes as but one route to God among many, I think we can hazard an intelligent guess.
Important points made there, Fidelis – thank you.
The price of £40 per ticket for that conference is disgraceful. You can just see mums and dads thinking “this’ll be a good [Catholic?] day out of the family…”
Scotland14 has got a point.
Charles McEwan,
I direct you to my reply to Scotland 14.
Charles,
“Scotland14 has got a point.”
Really? Well what is it?
All I can see is the usual rant against Catholic Truth which our critics deliver from time to time. Or should that be “time and time again”. Nothing substantial, ever, is offered in the way of constructive criticism (which we would welcome) and since Petrus proved him wrong, big time, in his factual response, there’s no point in my unworthy self reinventing the wheel.
I would add only that, for practical reasons, we are unable to go along to any Commonwealth Games venue – indeed, the city is about to be brought to a standstill with all the transport problems we’re being warned about day and daily, so – sadly – we are not going to be able to enjoy, as we did on the day of Pope Benedict’s visit to Glasgow – handing out Fatima literature and having interesting conversations with the spiritually starved Catholic population of our fair city.
But, be assured, had we been invited by the organisers of the “Gift of faith in sport” conference, to participate in it by either addressing the audience on the subject of the Catholic Faith or any aspect of it, or if we’d been invited to set up a stall to distribute traditional Catholic literature, including Fatima literature, and religious objects, we’d have jumped at it.
That Protestants and others not of the household of the Catholic Faith were invited by the Archdiocese of Glasgow to contribute to the “Gift of Faith” conference but we were not, should tell you all you need to know about the “point” being made by “Scotland14”.
So Catholic Truth supports the SSPX. I’m shocked!
Well actually I’m not.
As I have said elsewhere the SSPX have exactly the same doctrinal position as we, that is Benedict XVI and I have, namely pre-Vatican II. Remember that Vatican II was purely pastoral and defined no new doctrine at all.
The real problem in the Church is that the Relativist factions in the Church have the bit between their teeth, particularly when it comes to liturgy which has been their main line of attack. the Mass as a Redemptive Sacrifice, the Ordained Priesthood, and of course the Real Presence, have been their targets, and judging by the awful, (but valid ) particular version of the N.O. I have to go to, how successful they have been.
Their most successful tactic has been the idea of universal Holy Communion. Not only has that diminished belief in the Real Presence to vanishing point in tody’s congregations it has almost almost eliminated the concept of sin itself – their real objective as Relativists.
p.s. Sport in the over 25s is a complete and utter waste of time and hot air, except for the phyiothyerapists of course. My suggestion is that if you want to be healthy, cut the amount you eat by 2/3s. You will still be well above the intake of undernourished people in the under-developed countries.
Jacobi,
Pope Benedict XVI did not have the same doctrinal position as the SSPX. He was/is a Modernist. Miles better than the current holder of the papacy, but a Modernist nonetheless.
Only a Modernist would come up with the ridiculous “hermenuatic of continuity” and describe the Traditional Mass as “Extraordinary Form”. He also believes that both Masses are merely different expressions of the same rite.
@ Petrus
“The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of super dogma which takes away the importance of all the rest.”
What do you think of my dieting suggestion?
Jacobi,
That quote – which I’ve cited myself many times – is typical of Modernists. Have you read Pascendi? If not, please do as you will read there a frighteningly accurate description of what we are living through: on one page the Modernist writes something completely orthodox, on the next, he writes the opposite.
If my memory serves me correctly, and I’m not confusing speeches, I believe the then Cardinal Ratzinger followed up his acknowledgement that Vatican II “has been made into a sort of super dogma….” with an attack on the SSPX for seeing that ahead of time and taking steps to protect the Mass and Catholic doctrine.
Honestly, for Pope Paul VI to acknowledge that “through some crack” the Devil had gotten into the Church and not realise that it wasn’t through any crack at all but through the windows thrown open by Pope John XXIII at Vatican II and pulled ever wider by his successors, is just too much. A girl has to go and lie down, one is overtaken… it is just too, too much 😯
PS – I’m all for your dieting suggestion as long at it doesn’t involve cutting down on chocolate and cream cakes 😀
Excuse my butting in, however,when you say “He also believes that both Masses are merely different expressions of the same rite.” do you disagree.
If you do, are you not then saying that only one of these rites can provide a true sacrifice of the Mass? Which one?
Andrew,
You don’t say to whom you are replying but in case it’s moi, I can only say that anyone attending both the new Mass and the traditional Mass, should be able to see right away that they are two entirely different rites. However, let’s see what the key players in the creation of the new Mass had to say about it…
One of the Catholic experts involved in the forming of the new liturgy Fr. Joseph Gelineau said “This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists. it has been destroyed.” Joseph Gelineau, Demain la liturgie p.10.
And Fr. (later Archbishop) Anibale Bugnini headed a commission that included Protestants set up by Paul VI with the purpose of “improving” the liturgy. Fr. Bugnini stated that one of his intentions in designing the Novus Ordo was “to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965
The Protestants involved with the liturgy Commission were delighted with the new Mass and said Protestants would have no problem attending it. A Lutheran member of the Commission said: “We have finished the work that Martin Luther began.”
And finally, a must-read is Mgr Klaus Gamber’s excellent book “The Reform of the Roman Rite” which carried the following comment from the then Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) in the preface to the French edition:
“One cannot manufacture a liturgical movement … but one can help contribute to its development by striving to re-assimilate the spirit of the liturgy and by defending publicly what one has thus received … What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it– as in a manufacturing process — with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger from the Preface of the French edition of the book “The Reform of the Roman Rite” by Msgr. Klaus Gamber.
Well, Andrew, when you find yourself standing in front of your Maker at your Judgment, which of these two Masses would you wish you’d signed up to as being the “true Mass” – or – to put it, perhaps less controversially – the Mass which is self-evidently more pleasing to God? Or would you insist, as the Modernists do, that they are two forms of the same (Roman) rite? And before anyone jumps in to accuse me of denying that the novus ordo Mass may be valid (that is, it is not IN-valid per se) I know that. During the Reformation, when priests were being hunted down and executed if caught offering Mass, the priest would often cut to the Consecration. In novus ordo Masses where the proper matter and form is used for the Consecration, then, the Mass will be valid but, as we see Sunday after Sunday and Holy Day after Holy Day and when we can make it to a weekday Mass, there is usually much more to the liturgy in the way of all the prayers of the Sacrifice of the Mass which – as one old priest RIP told me years ago – are “like hedges to protect the doctrines”. I’m at the point of rambling again so will finish here and hope this is sufficient to answer your questions, Andrew. If not, all I can say is: you gotta be kidding me… 😀
Thanks for your response. I was responding to the comment by PETRUS. (You in a different guise?)
Somewhat of an equivocation though. If the NO can be valid then it is valid unless the priest sets out to invalidate it. The theology on this is pretty much beyond me, but I would think that if a properly ordained priest sets out to say Mass and observes the key issues it will be valid. I’m thinking that doddery old priests will celebrate a valid Mass even if they forget a few bits of the liturgy.
If however the NO is so radically changed from the older Latin form that it no longer qualifies, then there can’t have been many valid Masses in the last quarter century.
What you appear to be saying is because the NO is a less fixed formula, and one from which it is easy to deviate because it is in the vernacular, there are may be occasions when a priest may make so many deliberate changes that there will be no Mass at all?
Andrew,
Thank you for your comments. You are right – the New Mass is valid provided there is the correct matter, form and intention.
However, the issue is not only about validity. There are a small number of Anglican rites that are valid, I think of those Anglicans that can trace their orders back through the old Catholics. This doesn’t mean that because these Masses are valid they are pleasing to God. Same goes for the Orthodox rites. These are valid. Would God be pleased with a valid Mass within a schismatic church like the Orthodox? A church that rejects the Vicar of Christ?
As sad as it is to say, the same logic can be used with the Novus Ordo. Is God pleased with a rite of Mass created from scratch with the intention of pleasing Protestants by downplaying the sacrificial aspect of the Mass? The Rites of the Catholic Church must be approved and received. So, is God pleased when the Mass of All Time, handed down from the time of St Gregory the Great is cast aside in favour of a completely New Rite?
Essentially, in order to find our answer to the question, we look at the fruits of the New Mass. Remember, “by their fruits you shall know them”. What are the fruits of the New Mass? Disorder, sacrilege, heresy, apostasy, schism, relativism, novelty, loss of vocations, closing parishes etc etc etc. I think it is quite obvious that the New Mass does not please God.
I always wonder how a Mass that was handed down faithfully for well over 1500 years could simply be cast aside in the space of a few short years. How on earth could this Mass be persecuted and those who cling to this Mass be demonised and ostracised? The Mass that the Saints and Martyrs died for, and those who love this Mass, are ridiculed and persecuted by those who are ordained to safeguard the Sacraments. Truly, Andrew, this does not come from God and is none other than the work of the Devil.
Think of it this way, a person who has a degree in Medicine and a Medical licence is a valid doctor. This doesn’t guarantee that he or she is a good doctor. Validity is no guarantee of that. Surely we want a diligent doctor, a knowledgeable and reflective doctor? A doctor who has taken on board the advice of others, advice handed down from one generation of doctor to the next. How much more is this true of the Mass? This is why the Church declares that the liturgy must be approved and received. It’s not all about validity, Andrew.
Thanks for that. I must choose my words more carefully. I used “validity” too broadly.
Andrew,
Well, what did you mean, if not “validity”? You imply that you meant more than that. I no understand. Help!
Fully, richly meaningful as against minimally adequate. I tend to think in broader patterns, e.g is the Church in Scotland (or indeed elsewhere) in schism from the Church in Scotland of pre Vatican2 days?
Must go, I’m making the tea…
Well Andrew, I think you will have to agree – given the facts supplied in response to your initial post – that “minimally adequate” is about the most anyone could say about the new Mass, even on their best and most charitable day. I had mine ten years ago.
Personally, I found it wholly IN-adequate and having been in circumstances recently where I had to attend it again, my opinion has not changed one jot.
As for the Church in Scotland being in schism – it most definitely is in schism. But hold that thought – there’s a new thread coming up which will allow you to pursue that little nugget to your heart’s delight.
Tea-time already? 😯 I’ll be right there 😀
Andrew,
If you read Mgr Gamber’s book you will see that while he acknowledges that the novus ordo can be valid, there is a much greater risk of invalidity and – to be frank – we don’t need rocket scientists all over the place to tell us that.
In any case, validity is the most elementary of elementary requirements. You wouldn’t be satisfied, would you, if you asked your butcher if his meat is nourishing, if he replied that all he could guarantee is that it is free of deadly poison. I guess you’d hop it out of that butcher’s pronto.
Indeed, I’m not sure that that analogy is the best because it is by regular attendance as NO Masses that the drip drip effect of Modernism gradually poisons the soul. Just as the prayers around the Consecration protect the doctrine, so the parish bulletins urging attendance at ecumenical and interfaith gatherings, and all sorts of other novelties are now so inbuilt into the contemporary parish life as to pose the threat of deadly poison to souls.
I’ve written this without reading the responses I notice Petrus has posted so if I’m repeating him, apologies. Put it down to him stealing my best lines 😀
Andrew
I read a story a while back (I’ll post a link if I come across it again) about a priest somewhere who – for some reason known only to himself – decided to a sing a song and got so carried away that he actually omitted the consecration!
So yes, this problem (I call it optionitis) is a very serious one but it’s not the real problem with the NOM. The real problem is that exemplified by the quote from Bugnini that Editor posted above: the prayers have, to a large extent, been stripped of their Catholic content.
Consider as one example the collect for the first mass of All Souls:
Traditional:
O God, the Creator and Redeemer of all the faithful: grant to the souls of Thy servants and handmaidens the remission of all their sins: that through pious supplications they may obtain that pardon which they have always desired.
Novus Ordo:
Listen kindly to our prayers, O Lord, and, as our faith in Your Son, raised from the dead, is deepened, so may our hope of resurrection for your departed servants also find new strength.
Notice how the key concepts of our prayers for the dead have simply disappeared! (And, in case you’re wondering, the prayers for the second and third masses of All Souls have also been replaced by less Catholic versions.)
There are many, many examples of this sort of thing throughout the missal (many of them just as blatant as this one). Don’t take my word for it check it out for yourself – both sets of texts are readily available online.
Incidentally, the new prayer is theologically dubious. Last time I checked we don’t hope for the resurrection of the dead we believe in it!
A few years ago they had the glass chapel, now at Carfin, for the garden festival in Glasgow.
Why didn`t they have something like that again, although maybe a telephone booth would be big enough now.
After all, the games actually kick off in that part of Glasgow called paradise.
Frankier,
As I’ve said before, you never cease to bring a smile to one’s lips. Never cease. 😀
Ed.
Danke schon!
@Editor
I have read Pascendi and have quoted from it. As well as Pius X, both Benedict XV and Pius XI foresaw it. Also, Newman. Belloc writing in 1938, only 27 years before Vat II predicted the present crisis with uncanny accuracy.
I think you are recalling Ratzinger’s speech to the Chilean bishops in 1988 in which he roundly condemned what we would now call the Spirit of Vat II, and everything it stood for.
Could I also refer you to Quo Primum, a document highlighted recently by de Mattei? In that document St Pius V established the new standardised Tridentine Mass as the main Mass (but not the only one) of the Church”in perpetuity”. Therefore, Paul VI did not have the authority to ban the Vetus Ordo.
I’m sure this is what Benedict had in mind when he said,
“What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behoves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.” – Pope Benedict XVI
I agree with your other implied points. We have been badly served by our popes in the 20th and 21st centuries, from the disastrous naivety of St John XXIII, the confusion of Paul VI, the preoccupation of St John Paul II, and the failure of Benedict XVI, who understood what was happening, to push through the necessary reforms.
Yes he was getting on a bit but so aremany of us. It’s a pity “Muttie” Merkel is not a Catholic. She would have sorted Benedict out!
Jacobi,
I think “Muttie” Merkel might also have sorted out “Saint” John XXIII and “Saint” John Paul II as a future pontiff will, undoubtedly, sort out their “canonisations”!
I wonder how long it will be until we have a Saint Martin Luther, Saint John Knox?
Joseph,
We nearly did! The Glasgow music commission under the direction of Mgr Gerry Fitzpatrick wrote a cantata with a “litany” which included John Knox and other Protestants. I complained to the Chancellor at the time, Mgr Peter Smith, who eventually asked for John Knox to be removed. I’ve heard Archbishop Conti has a deep devotion to the Patron of Heretics, John Knox!
Thanks for that reminder, Petrus
And in case anybody missed it on our website (Church page) here is an account of Archbishop Conti’s devotion to the Protestant Reformation – and take note of the response of the Protestant Minister speaking at the same event. Could you… I mean, COULD you – make this stuff up?
Well, here’s a report of something that happened within the first few minutes of the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games – a homosexual kiss in a piece about weddings at Gretna Green – I watched it with disgust myself.
Now, is not this something that the Catholic Church could have tried to stop? Surely there were representatives who knew something of the plans for the “Gretna” scene? Or were there no religious representatives at the planning stage at all? Is the Catholic Church quite happy to be treated like a useful idiot by the politicians of Scotland?
I found the ‘homosexual kiss’ at the opening ceremony deeply distasteful and wonder if this was pre-planned and discussed or decided upon by a few people at the last minute? Why are ‘gay rights’ flung in our faces at every turn?
I doubt if any of our Bishops will have the courage to make any statements about it, given the scandal caused by Cardinal O’Brien!!
I saw the dress rehearsal. It was scripted.
I could see it coming – it was obviously part of the script. The young man breaking away from the rest, looking lonely and I thought… “Oh no… don’t tell me…” and sure enough, another male grabs his hands and plasters him with a kiss. Horrendous.
Given that this scandal took place at Celtic Park with its obvious connections to the Church – it was, after all, a Marist Brother who started the club in the first place – I think it is imperative that some kind of statement of disapproval is issued by the Scottish Catholic Media Office, if only “for the record”….
Eileenanne,
Did you lodge a complaint?
The kiss was certainly distasteful and totally uncalled for. No wonder poor Susan Boyle forgot the words of her song, the poor soul was probably traumatised. Not only did we have to watch John Barrowman plant the kiss but we had to endure Karen Dunbar (who Is in a same sex relationship) shouting “equality” as it happened. I wonder if her sexuality was the reason she was chosen because I can’t see any other reason. She’s as funny as a slap in the face with a wet kipper and certainly not someone Glasgow can be proud of.
Hear hear, Vianney. I was cringing as Karen Dunbar rose to begin the opening ceremony. Someone should have told her that ladies don’t sit like that, especially when wearing a kilt/skirt, but then maybe she isn’t the “lady” in her particular partnership. I’m not terribly knowledgeable in the matter but the word on the street seems to be that one member of these “partnerships” role plays the male and one role plays the woman. Seems pointless to me – why not go for the real thing? But then, who am I to judge…
She certainly lacks the key ingredient for a career in comedy; as you say, she’s about as funny as a slap in the face with the kipper, wet or otherwise.
I thought this was a good comment about the kiss on a newspaper blog:
“The love that dare not speak its name is now the love that won’t shut up about it…”
Priceless – and absolutely spot on.
That quote is attributed to the Canadian playwright Robertson Davies (1913 – 1995) and seems to date from as early as the 1970s!
The American writer Robert Brustein (1927 – ) is credited with a variation of it:
“The love that previously dared not speak its name has now grown hoarse from screaming it.”
Having said that, I haven’t been able to trace the actual sources of these two quotes so the attributions may be suspect.
Nice quotes though 😀
CD,
Terrific quotes because absolutely true!
‘Once the camel’s nose is allowed inside the tent, its ugly, stinking derriere will soon follow’.
Another way of saying it.
Pat,
That’s certainly a typically Scottish way of saying it!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703429/The-new-Glasgow-kiss-John-Barrowman-seen-kissing-man-holding-hands-Gretna-Green-sequence-clear-message-countries-homosexuality-crime.html
Has there been any debate on this? Any condemnation at all? Have we reached a point where we have become so desensitised to this behaviour that it has become a norm? Have we reached a point that folk are just too scared to condemn homosexual behaviour lest they be sacked from their jobs, persecuted as evil discriminators or forever condemned to the fringes of society as homophobes.?
I’m bracing myself for the reactions of the Catholic Church in Scotland on this: either deafening silence or some modernist tripe about Love and Mercy.
God help us.
Summa,
So far not a peep from the Scottish Catholic Media Office. An absolutely disgraceful silence has flowed forth.
The Bishop [Emeritus] of Galloway sold the Gretna church to be used as a marriage venue. It is not beyond the possibility that ‘homo’ based functions will take place there.
That and the church at Eastriggs [sold much earlier and now used a workshop] were built ny HMG for the munition workers who thronged the area with plants at Gretna, Eastriggs and Dumfries. the Gretna building was ‘Listed’.
Sixupman,
Interesting but hardly surprising. Bishop Maurice Taylor really did take the episcopal biscuit. One of the worst of the bunch.
Regarding the appalling Barrowman stunt, I though it was in very poor taste. I was pleased that it was agreed not to politicise the sport over the independence referendum, so I was disappointed that organisers chose to politicise it over another matter instead.
The stunt would have been offensive to many of the Commonwealth nations taking part. Kind of like inviting someone over for dinner, and then meeting them at the door with insults and “the fingers”. How crass.
Gabriel,
I agree – very poor taste but then if the mythical guests you mention don’t complain about the insults, what then? As you’ll have noted Eileenanne* was present at the dress rehearsal so saw that homosexual activity and yet apparently said nothing. I asked her if she’d lodged a complaint and she hasn’t responded. I cannot imagine how any Catholic would have let that golden opportunity to uphold God’s natural moral law, slip away. And think how many Catholics were in that audience and thought nothing of it. Catholics, did I say? Yeah, right. About as Catholic as Ian Paisley’s granny.
* Note: Eileenanne made a point of telling us that she only blogs here in order to “put us right” or, more accurately, to make sure we don’t adversely (in her view) influence people who come on here because it’s a Catholic blog – and therefore may be misled into thinking that traditional Catholic Faith and Morals are the way to go … 😯