The Restoration Of The Priestly Spirit…
Comment
Our Lady foretold that her Son would “send a prelate to restore the priestly spirit” and it seems very clear that the name of that prelate is Archbishop Lefebvre.
The priests in the video are a reminder of what priests, routinely, used to be like. Who needs a definition of “the priestly spirit” when listening to those priests, who appear to be “the priestly spirit” personified. Ask a young person whether they prefer the modern “cool” version of priest to those in the film and you will find that with very few, if any exceptions, they will identify the priests in the film as being their ideal type of priest.
If your findings are different – let’s hear them. If you are a young person reading this, let us know your thoughts on the priests in the film, because the questions to address here are, quite simply: (1) what is the SSPX doing in its seminary formation that is producing the quality of priests in the film and (2) how long will it take for the priestly spirit, so evident in the video interviews, to be restored across the UK?
Our Lady of Good Success, pray for us…
Comments (63)
Archbishop Lefebvre to restore the priestly spirit? I can think of no other. May God in that case grant him a long life.
Editor
I was fortunate to go on the SSPX pilgrimage to Turin La Salette and Lourdes in October 2014 which was organised by the Thomas Aquinas Seminary and included 18 young seminarians 4 of which were ordained this year.
I have never met more devout young men nothing was to much trouble from handling all the luggage to assisting older people in wheelchairs.
We had mass every morning before breakfast and rosary each day on the coach led by a different seminarian. I feel as if I was truly blessed to have been on that pilgrimage. If those18 young seminarians are the norm then the future of the SSPX is assured.
John,
That sounds wonderful. I do think that the SSPX is going to be the saving of the Church.
John,
You were truly blessed to be on that pilgrimage, by the sounds of it. And yes, I agree, the future of the SSPX is assured thanks to the quality of its priests, just as the mainstream dioceses are doomed to failure because of the decadence which is now, sadly, endemic in most if not all of them.
That’s a beautiful video. I think the answers to the questions are that the SSPX must be still training priests in the traditional way (not like modern seminaries) and it will take a very long time, at least a generation, to restore the priestly spirit in the dioceses to be of the same quality as we witnessed in the young SSPX priests in the film. I can’t see it happening any sooner.
Fidelis,
I have to disagree. I think it will happen as soon as the Pope consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and I, personally, don’t think that’s far off now.
I didn’t know that about a prelate being sent to save the priesthood. Which apparition was this – presumably approved?
DominieMary
It’s the prophecies of Our Lady of Good Success in the 17th century, and yes, it’s approved. Our Lady asked a nun to be a victim soul for the Church in the 20th century, when there would be a crisis of faith in the Church. They’re amazing prophecies, centuries old. I think Archbishop Lefebvre has to be the prelate She mentioned, who else could it be.
Michaela
I think you are well off the mark. It surely can’t be someone who was excommunicated so it must be Msgr Basil.😜
😀 😀 😀
Dominie Mary,
OLGS is an approved apparition as Michaela points out, and I’ve been told that Archbishop Lefebvre accepted that he may, indeed, have been the prelate Our Lady mentions in the Quito (Ecuador) apparitions. Truly something upon which to reflect deeply, especially those who are still attending novus ordo Masses.
If he indeed is that Prelate and I indeed believe he is, then surely this vindicates his good name, being chosen and spoken of by the Mother of God Herself. But then again, Our Lady is downplayed today by the Counciliar Church so they probably wouldn’t care.
Dominniemary, it’s in the 16th paragraph under “THE FIVE PROPHECIES OF OUR TIMES”.
You can either click on editor’s link in the preamble or see here:
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-155/Our%20Lady%20of%20Good%20Success.html
What a beautiful video – those are very promising priests. We should pray for their perseverance.
Michaela,
I absolutely agree that we should pray for those priests to persevere. We need them, with bells on (in a manner of speaking!)
That was really a very good video. The seminarians were well spoken, dignified and seemed to know why they were in the seminary- to be priests/representatives of Christ and not glorified social workers. And for the visiting trolls- caring for the poor, sick and needy is something Catholics have always done and will always do, and the SSPX is no exception.
Editor, I think young people would actually find the SSPX priest ‘cool’, it may have something to do with them being unashamed of appearing ‘old fashioned’ or ‘outdated’ and for being unapologetically Catholic. I know a young man who came from a nominal Catholic family and his form of ‘rebellion’ was to ‘hang out’ with a Traditional order of priests!
I don’t see how Archbishop Lefebvre could not be the prelate sent to restore the Church.
Dear Jobstears, I don’t mean to be censorious (more than usually), ‘cos I know you’re being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but the day any young people say they find an SSPX priest ‘cool’ I’ll be off to the Evangelical place up the road!
Oh, please don’t leave, Christina 😥 I can’t keep up with slang these days. but I think ‘cool’ = ‘has it all together’ but is not a ‘dinosaur’ .
Besides, I even agree with you about the statue of OLOGS :D:
I attend Mass in a ‘mainstream’ parish and while I could quibble about some things, I would say that the two priests serving there are holding to orthodoxy (at least by comparison to other churches that I’ve been to) e.g. altar rails that are actually used as such, only male altar-servers and any periodic appeal for new servers always specifying that only boys should apply, sermons that invariably end with an enjoinder to pray to Our Lady, frequent encouragement to the congregation to go regularly to Confession and perhaps most striking of all was a recent sermon in which the Parish Priest said (and I quote), “There’s no faith in prayer, there’s no faith in the sacraments.” So there are parishes out there, although I fear they’re few and far between, which are still recognisably Catholic. I must admit though that I had to search long and hard to find my current one and while it’s dispiriting to hear about the lack of the sensus Catholicus so widespread in this day and age, I would mention having witnessed the following three unfortunate (to put it mildly) examples with a mixture of shock and downright disapproval:
(1) The church where one of the priests entered the Sanctuary to ‘tidy’ up after Mass while wearing a woolly hat on his head.
(2) The priest who celebrated Mass in 11 minutes.
(3) The church where the priest said Mass without wearing a chasuble and of course inserted lots of his own,bespoke phrases.
I’m still scratching my head about the vestment failure in the last example. Temporary bout of amnesia? Burglary at the priest’s house the night before? Didn’t like the colour? Answers on a postcard.
He was being humble.😁 I believe the old vestment-makers in Rome are going out of business, and priests there are throwing out their beautiful vestments in their haste to follow Papa Francis. Pity they’re all Gothic vestments – if they were Roman those SSPX seminarians could have a field day in the second-hand shops!
Spudeater,
While it is certainly good news that there are priests as good as the one you have found – God bless him – I think we’re way beyond the stage of settling for a one-off parish with an exceptional priest. Things are so bad now, that I think we ALL owe it to Our Lord to support the “lifeboat” which He sent to see us through this crisis – the SSPX.
I liken the choice facing us to the custom many of us have had for years, of searching out pro-life MPs at election time. Phone calls and emails going around to tell us where the local hustings are being held, encouraged to go and question our candidates etc. Then the penny dropped. Voting for a particular candidate because he is pro-life makes no difference whatsoever. He’s not making the decisions. It’s the PARTY – those running it at the top, the manifesto author(s) – which has the last word and the last word in every party manifesto for some years now, has been “abortion stays.” So, no point in voting for one good man or (more rarely) woman, who will speak out on occasion about (usually) reducing the age at which this murder can take place, not removing the right to kill unborn babies altogether. Similarly, settling for having to hunt for a reasonably orthodox parish priest, is no longer an option – in my considered and anything but humble opinion…
In fact, some of us were discussing this whole question after Mass this morning in the Society tearoom in Glasgow and one elderly gentleman in particular felt very strongly that nobody who is aware of the crisis in the Church can justify supporting the new Mass, and, further, he said, those of a certain age, who knew the Mass before Vatican II, have no excuse and there will be a terrible judgment awaiting them for their continued support of the whole novus ordo industry. (I paraphrase, of course. All accurate except he didn’t use the word “industry” 😯 ) I would add, too, that he had no flattering words for the handful of priests lauded as being “traditional” in these parts, since they are still not offering Sunday Masses, they are still saying the novus ordo and thus participating in the sacrilege of giving Communion in the hand. He does, one has to admit, have a point.
Anyway, I have no idea about your personal circumstances, your geographical position in relation to the nearest SSPX chapel so I am not digging at you, be assured. Merely “sharing” (!) as they do in all the most enlightened “Let’s dialogue to death” groups these days…
I “share” the above thoughts only for the purpose of ensuring that you have some material upon which to reflect, Spudeater. In other words… think, think, think. And when you’ve done that, think again 😀
I certainly knew the Mass before Vatican 2 and I could still assist at the celebration of it without too much brushing up on the Latin but it’s not good enough the elderly gentlemen condemning someone like myself to a terrible judgement without fully explaining why.
Practising our religion is not just going to Mass. Where do we “condemned” go to keep in touch with our religion. What if we require confession or wish to attend exposition or even go on pilgrimage to Fatima?
If it is utterly impossible to attend a SSPX Mass do we just sit at home and drift away from religion altogether, or God even?
Surely a just God isn’t going to inflict a terrible judgement on anyone wishing to practice their religion against all the odds. Anyone leaving the Church, even allowing for the state that it is in, is going to finish up a non -believer and then they may face a terrible judgement.
The first thing that sprung to mind when I read this was the terrible judgement that was forecast for readers of Catholic Truth.
Another thought. If everyone decided tomorrow to attend a SSPX
Mass, or if even 10% decided, where would they go to?
If they wished to go to the existing, is there enough room?
Is there enough priests to cope?
Would they be able to attend such activities as rosary and benediction, Holy Hour, October devotions and join parochial committees to organise May processions?
To me, those were all part of the True Faith although I suppose it could be argued that The Holy Mass is all that would be required.
Oh dear the dreaded parish committees! No, I don’t think the SSPX have those 🙂 !
I sympathise with those in the position of not being able to attend the Traditional Mass. It must be awful.
However, I think history is full of examples of Catholics not being able to attend Mass. They prayed the rosary, novenas, divine office etc and kept up their spiritual reading. This is what I would do in your situation. Knowing that the New Mass is so offensive to God is enough to keep me away from it.
I think there’s a distinction to be made between attending the New Mass and going to other Sacraments/devotions in modern parishes. I still attend Stations of the Cross and the rosary in my local parish and have attended exposition too. I go there for Confession on occasion.
However, I must stress that this is a very personal decision. The elderly gentleman the editor mentioned probably had all these things in mind when he said what he said.
Frankier,
“The first thing that sprung to mind when I read this was the terrible judgment that was forecast for readers of Catholic Truth”.
Yet again, you prove to be the expert in making non-sequiturs and apparently jumping to wrong conclusions. In truth, however, your parting shot in your comment at 12.42. am on 29 June, is too obscure for a simple gal like moi to be able to understand.
Better to speak plainly when dealing with a dim-wit like my unworthy self because I can’t think of anything I’ve written which would indicate that readers of Catholic Truth were, ipso facto, heading for a terrible judgment. Please explain exactly what you mean.
Editor
I`m afraid I`m not very good at getting the one-liners across.
I don`t recall accusing you in particular of writing anything that would indicate that readers of Catholic Truth were heading for a terrible judgement but I certainly fitted the profile of the ones your elderly
gentleman mentioned.
To explain my “parting shot” (which wasn`t really) it was actually meant to be tongue-in-cheek with no “malice aforethought”, as they used to say in the movies, so I will say sorry.
Frankier,
I think the elderly gentleman in question allowed his frustration to somewhat colour his comments. His observations certainly lacked objectivity, but I can understand where he’s coming from.
God alone reserves the right to judge souls, as we all know, so none of us can say who will or will not face a “terrible judgement”. Each person will be judged according to the graces and lights he has received, and how he has responded or failed to respond to those gifts.
Many Catholics of good will attend the New Mass, particularly those who are too young to remember the ancient Mass before the liturgical revolution. There are even older Catholics who remember (and prefered) the ancient Mass, yet celebrate or attend the New Mass because they believe that the Pope has obliged them to do so.
A classic example of this latter type was Bishop Salvadore Lazo, a Filipino diocesan bishop who only realised the truth of the matter in his mid 70s and resolved from then until death never again to celebrate or attend the New Mass. He had gone along against his conscience for many decades believing that the Pope had forbidden the old Mass, only to discover very late on that he had been duped.
This brings me to the point.
You say “practising our religion is not just going to Mass”. This is true. But practising our religion faithfully is dependent upon the graces we get from the Mass, which is the heart of our faith. Now, if we believe as we pray (lex orandi, lex credendi), and if we act as we believe, then attendance at the New Mass must necessarilly result over time in a certain Protestantising of our faith, which is everywhere evident today.
How could it be otherwise when the New Mass was quite deliberately constructed to please Protestants. As Mgr. Bugnini said himself in 1965 “We must remove from our Catholic liturgy and prayers all that can be the shadow of a stumbling block to our separated brethren, that is, to the Protestants”.
On hindsight it is clear that the reformers went much further than just removing what was objectionable to Protestants, further even than obscuring the Sacrifice itself for the sake of appeasing the sensibilities of heretics. They went on to illigitimately introduce Protestant practices such as Communion in the hand, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, altar girls, etc., all of which abuses are abhorent to the properly formed Catholic conscience which recognises the irreverent and rebellious spirit behind this so-called “liturgical renewal”. Those who cannot see this great evil of our times are either ill formed in the faith or indifferent to truth and holiness. The former category of Catholic is much less cupable before God than the latter.
Our first duty in practising our religion, then, is to hold fast to that which has been handed down unsullied for 2000 years, namely Sacred Tradition, including the ancient Mass, the Mass of the saints and martyrs. And that duty, sad to say, in our day, involves a certain resistance to those in authority who, unlike their predecessors, and in fact contrary to the teaching of said predecessors, have gone after novelty to the great detriment of the Mass, the faith and the Catholic souls under their care. It’s not a nice position to be in, but fidelity to God demands it.
Some souls have great difficulty with this, believing that blind obedience to their religious superiors is more important than truth itself. This is a huge error, borne of the ignorance of our times.
Archbishop Lefebvre put the matter into perspective when he said “If it’s not against faith then we must obey”. In other words, we are bound to obey our religious superiors only when they faithfully preserve and hand down the deposit of faith entrusted to them. We are not bound to obey them when they put our Holy Faith at risk of corruption. Quite the contrary, in fact!
It is in this certainty of antiquity that we Traditional Catholics stand assured before Our Lord. We have changed not one iota of the Faith handed down. It is impossible that such fidelity to the Magisterium of almost 20 centuries can be called rebellion, disobedience or schism. The rebellious, disobedient and schismatic ones are the conciliar reformers, not the resistors. Hence, those common accusations against the SSPX, i.e., that it’s not in full communion, etc., arise more from mailce than fact. Indeed, Pope Francis himself recently instructed the Archbishop of Buenos Aires to inform the Argentinian government that the SSPX is a Catholic institution.
At any rate, regular attendance at the New Mass does have the effect of eroding ones faith. I know this because I attended it for twenty years before returning to the Mass of our forefathers.
You ask if that means we just sit at home and drift away from religion altogether, or God even?
Well, I can tell you that the New Mass has resulted in millions apostatising from the faith in just forty years. It has also resulted in the closure of countless thousands of seminaries and religious houses, and it has reduced a once-healthy universal flood of vocations to a veritable trickle. Of those who remain in attendance at the New Mass, a great number no longer live by the Commandments and the precepts of the Church. Indeed, I doubt if many of them even know what the Mass really is. It may be worth questioning a few of them one day to see what response you get. I mean to say, even the bishops and priests wrongly refer to the Mass as “a celebration of the Eucharist” or “the Paschal mystery”. What does that mean?
Personally, I could not attend the New Mass because it is theologically so far removed from the Mass of the ages and so reminiscent of the Protestant meal service as to warrant complete avoidance. Easier said than done, I know, but not if there is a Traditional Mass available somewhere else. It’s hardest for those who have no alternative and who would not be content with reading their missal and reciting a rosary at home on Sundays. Our Lord will understand the anxiety of such souls, I’m sure.
If these must attend the New Mass then I would advise that they fix their minds on Calvary, preferably reciting the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary until the consecration, and then, ignoring all lay interlopers in the Sanctuary, receive Holy Communion on their tongue from the hands of the priest alone.
I have to say, though, that refusing the New Mass does not mean that one has to boycott his parish altogether. Confession, pilgrimages, devotions, etc., if Traditional in spirit and in accordance with the teaching of the Church – for example, the priest uses the correct words of absolution and administers sound Catholic advice and a penance following confession – then fine, that’s all perfectly wholesome and good. Everything has to be weighed in the light of Sacred Tradition, our infallible guide to what is Catholic and what is not Catholic, or at least dangerous to the Faith.
Every one of us is bound to reflect on these things, to inform ourselves and to pray to Our Lady for guidance. What we should never do, deceiving our own self, is go along with the liberal flow under the pretext of obedience. Only dead fish flow with the current.
Athanasius
I do not disagree with anything you say but to just pack up going to Mass altogether is a bit much for some folk and I include myself in SOME.
Sometimes it can be the only opportunity in the week that you meet certain people with whom you can socialise with and have the craic.
I am too set in my ways to change now anyway even if I wanted. I couldn`t even be bothered with the hassle of explaining to anyone why I am not seen at Mass anymore. I have enough on my plate so I`ll just leave it up to God himself to judge me on that one.
What I find difficult to get my head around is this. How can anyone stop going to a NO Mass and still go to confession to that church?
It may be OK for ones that can attend a TLM, they are fulfilling their obligation and I would assume they are absolved but what if I tell the priest that I don`t go to Mass anymore? Surely I can`t be absolved and therefore can`t receive communion. Not that it would matter if I am not going to church anyway.
I must admit that many times I go home and tell my wife that I have been to a protestant service but this is mainly because of the wee add-ons, the jokes and the hand-clapping. I feel that if I am there for the consecration that I have been as near the genuine Mass as need be.
I try to go a half an hour early to the church to recite the rosary and, if time to do so, the Stations.
If I am in the presence of The Blessed Sacrament it is surely better than sitting at home with all the distractions.
I hope God agrees with me anyway, I`m not too concerned what Margaret Mary thinks. 🙂
Frankier,
Sorry for the delay in answering, this is me just finishing work for the day – a straight 13-hours!!!
I perfectly understand your situation. It is quite clear to me that you cannot get to a Traditional Mass regularly and so you make the best of what you have in your local parish, always seeing the Mass as Our Lord’s sacrifice on Calvary for the remission of sins and not as some kind of social gathering around “the table of the Lord”!
I am assuming from what you write that you definitely do not subscribe to Communion in the hand, etc. I can also see from your devotion to the rosary and Stations of the Cross that you have never lost your Catholic piety.
Please believe me when I say that I am not sitting here in judgement of you or anyone else, and I’m sure others on this blog would say the same for themselves. It’s just that most of us who have been graced by God to have the Traditional Mass restored to us, not that we are more worthy than anyone else, feel an urgency to try to convince our fellow Catholics to try if possible to return to that priceless treasure.
I know it’s not possible for all to attend the ancient Mass on a regular basis, and far be it from me to demand that any Catholic refrain against their conscience from attending the New Mass, but it does need saying that the New Mass is very dangerous to unwary Catholic souls because of the Protestant theology underlying much of it. Just look at the devastation of the priesthood and seminaries, not to mention the apostasy of millions worldwide from the true Faith and you will readily understand what I mean. But I think you already agree with what I’m saying.
It’s just a pity that a good many other older Catholics have lost what you still retain. It’s even more tragic that the younger generation never had it put into them. The Church has never witnessed anything like this before. It would break your heart.
Anyway, not everything is bad. Despite all the efforts of the Modernists to eradicate the sacred from our churches, the Sacraments remain valid. Priests and people just have to make sure they administer and receive them in strict accordance with the Traditional teaching of the Church, resisting all novelty and praying for the countless numbers who have stained their souls with indifference, irreverence and/or sacrilege in regard to these divine gifts. Terrible times the Church is going through right now, unprecedented in 2000 years.
Our Lord, however, judges souls by their intentions. If the intention is to honour and please Him then it is pretty certain that no mortal sin is involved, assuming of course that we have not neglected either to inform ourselves of the truth of things or failed through sloth to take a more praiseworthy alternative action against the present internal assault on our holy religion.
Please God, this will all end soon with the great triumph of Our Lady over the enemies both within and outwith the Church.
Ed.,
I must acknowledge that your elderly friend certainly holds very forthright views about the undisputed crisis in the Church and especially those ‘affiliated’ to the post-V2 Incarnation. ‘No justification for supporting new Mass’, ‘a terrible judgment’ for those pre-V2 Initiates who do so and even the small numbers of ‘traditional’ priests (his estimation of “modern” priests is, I suspect, unprintable!) get a hammering for ‘participating in the sacrilege of Communion in the hand’ (‘and still not offering Sunday Masses’??).
I’m not about to defend the novus ordo or Communion in the hand and other serious abuses but….
When he says ‘supporting’ the new Mass, he basically means ‘attending’ as if someone ‘attends’ ipso facto they are ‘supporting’, so he thereby consigns the vast majority of Catholics good,bad and indifferent, across the world to being ‘struck off’. His sweeping condemnation of that group of people schooled in the pre-V2 Mass but who now attend the N.O. version means that anyone who fits that description and who nevertheless attains Salvation will have done so in spite of (rather than because of) their attendance at what I presume your friend would still acknowledge to be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – a position which turns our Faith on its head. And lastly, by his reckoning, almost all priests, again good,bad and indifferent, are persistently committing the grave sin of sacrilege and permitting others to do the same. If his absolutist contentions are accurate, it appears it is no longer a question of ‘No Salvation outside the Church’ but rather ‘No Salvation outside the SSPX’.
I note that you say that your friend ‘has a point’ without definitively agreeing with him. Those who say that (Blood-pressure rise alert!) the Church should move with the times can also be said to have a point but it doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s a good one.
The only scintilla of consolation that I can glimpse in my current predicament is that I’m too young (much,much too young!) to remember the Traditional Latin Mass so at least I’m in a slightly better position than poor Frankier. (Frankier, I’m afraid it appears you’re done for!).
Spud
I might just join the Masons. It looks as if they are the only ones who can help me now.
Frankier,
Not a bad idea. Let me know if there’s a discount on your first year’s membership if you recommend a friend!
Then again, you sent that post at such an unearthly hour, are you sure you’re not one of them already and haven’t just come from a late night conference with the Grand Facilitator? Either that or you’re a Carthusian Abbot (but don’t assume THAT will make any difference in the Final Reckoning).
Spud
I am actually just practising at the moment.
I haven’t told my wife yet so I normally stay up late since I don’t want her to catch me out standing in front of the mirror
with my wee apron on, the trouser leg rolled up and the goat with the muzzle on to keep it quiet.
Once I am able to walk with the feet at a 90 degree angle I
should be accepted at the local lodge.
Frankier,
I’m not normally in the habit of offering unsolicited advice but in your (urgent) case I’ll make an exception:
Forget the wife, join the Lodge and persevere with the goat. You’ll have a friend for life.
Spud
I was thinking along those lines and angles myself
but thanks for your advice anyway.
Spudeater,
Just a quick reply to your latest post for now – more later – because I really should have given the context for the elderly gentleman’s comments. I had just told him about a young priest whose bishop had made clear that he didn’t want him to offer the TLM and said priest more or less told his bishop to take a hike. That was the context; we agreed that this was more like it. Instead of grasping at the crumbs that fall from the bishops’ tables, here we had a real man ready to stand up to the bishop and say that this is permitted – encouraged indeed – by the Church, and I’m going to do it. If you don’t like it, lump it.
I won’t divulge the name or location of the priest because I don’t have his permission, but that, I repeat, is the sort of defending the Faith attitude which we should be witnessing all around.
More later.
I don’t think you should judge the editor’s old friend so harshly. He was perhaps referring to those Catholics who know the history of the New Mass but go along with it for an easy life. I know many of these people and I used to be one myself. There are those who sense something is wrong but really don’t want to know the truth either.
Spudeater,
I haven’t time (and even less patience!) to search out exact quotes from your post at 11.43pm 29th June, but I recall you speaking about attending the novus ordo “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” and “turning our Faith on its head” by suggesting that we should NOT attend the NO – I hope I’ve got that right. Whatever, I thought it would be of interest to you to read a previous thread we ran on the subject, headlined whether or not Catholics are obliged to attend the novus ordo (answer, in a nutshell, no. Cannot possibly be obliged to do so.) To attend a Mass with the Catholicity ripped out of it, THAT is to stand our Faith on its head.
The question which we found to be key in our previous discussion, was, NOT “is the new Mass ‘valid’ – but is the new Mass “licit”? That is, CAN we be obligated to accept and attend it? Somewhere in that thread, I posted the following:
The new Mass is “licit” only in a very limited way. I have published, more than once, the Vatican’s own response to two dubia (doubts) submitted by a bishop in South America (I think) on behalf of a layman there, asking this very question about legitimacy.
He asked two questions:
(1) is the new Mass “legitimate” in the sense that it is permitted by the Church or
(2) is it “legitimate” because it is neither doctrinally unorthodox or otherwise displeasing to God.
Here, yet again, is the (incredible) response of the Vatican:
Pontificia Commissio Ecclesia Dei
Prot. 156/2009
Vatican City, 23 May 2012
Your Excellency,
This Pontifical Commission has received, via your Excellency’s good offices, a copy of a correspondence from [name blacked out] placing before the Commission two dubia as to the interpretation of article 19 of this Commission’s Instruction Universae Ecclesiae.
The first [dubium] asked whether legitimas in UE, article 19, is to be understood as meaning:
(a) Duly promulgated by appropriate procedures of ecclesiastical law (ius ecclesiasticum); or
(b) In accord with both ecclesiastical law and divine law (ius divinum), that is, neither doctrinally unorthodox nor otherwise displeasing to God.
This Pontifical Commission would limit itself to saying that legitimas is to be understood in the sense of 1(a).
The second [dubium] is responded to by this answer.
With the hope that Your Excellency will communicate the contents of this letter to the individual concerned, this Pontifical Commission takes this opportunity to renew its sentiments of esteem.
Sincerely yours in Christ
Mons. Guido Pozzo
Secretary
In other words, the new Mass is “licit” only because the Church permits it. Not because it is pleasing to God, so it stands to reason that there can be no obligation on Catholics to attend any Mass that even the Vatican will not affirm as wholly doctrinally orthodox and pleasing to God.
If your local butcher refused to affirm that the meat you are about to purchase is wholly nourishing and free from poison, would you go ahead and buy it anyway? Source…
Another very interesting article on the legitimacy of the new Mass is found here…
Finally, I must correct your suggestion that this all means that “outside the SSPX there is no salvation” – wrong. That is heresy. Just like saying “outside the Jesuit Order there is no salvation” but if the Jesuits in Glasgow were offering a Sunday TLM and guaranteeing a heresy free sermon then no Catholic in Glasgow would be right to continue to attend the new Mass which even the Vatican refused to affirm is pleasing to God, with the ancient Mass so easily available. The new Mass is manifestly NOT pleasing to God and the evidence is all around us. That’s not to condemn any well meaning priests and faithful who are going along with it – not my place to condemn anybody, nor is it my elderly friend’s place to condemn anybody. Just as it’s nobody’s place to condemn people who rob and steal and kill other people, for whatever reason(s). So, let’s stop playing silly beggars with this “Judge not…” manipulating of an exhortation which merely restricts our judgment to words and actions.
We may not DEFINITIVELY judge a soul, by condemning that soul to Hell. It’s not a sin to judge words and actions or merely express concern that so many priests and people WHO KNOW BETTER continue to accept/attend/involve themselves with the new (and getting newer every day) Mass; that is not to “condemn”. It is to note the fact, express disappointment, perhaps, surprise, and that, I’m sure you will agree, is preferable to switching off our brains and saying “ach well, their choice….” Scripture is very clear about God’s displeasure at being offered false worship. None of us should wish to stand accused of it at our judgment.
If you can’t get to a TLM, then you would be better praying the Rosary, reading through a “dry” Mass and doing some spiritual reading, life of a saint, sound catechism, whatever, just as the Japanese Catholics did during the 200 years they were without priests and had to keep the Faith, in the sure and certain knowledge that Our Lord is not bound by His sacraments.
This is a time of unprecedented crisis in the Church – we have to make sure we are fully informed and invoking our Confirmation grace to be truly Soldiers of Christ, defending the Faith in every way possible. If that means shunning a novelty Mass, then so be it. We have a duty to safeguard our souls from any adverse influence and the ecumenical-soaked parishes which are now the norm, are definitely adverse influences, taking us away from our Catholic heritage and Faith. I’ve just heard from one of our shocked readers, that she, with her children recently attended a novus ordo Mass where they witnessed a female Protestant minister, dressed in a male suit with Roman collar, going into the sanctuary to read from Sacred Scripture – at a Mass attended by a member of the Scottish Hierarchy. Outrageous! Try explaining to the young people present at that Mass why females cannot be priests when, in their minds, they’ve just witnessed one participating in the Mass in the presence of the local Ordinary. More on that in the August newsletter.
All in all, anything, surely, is better than attending a Mass, created with the express intention of removing everything from it that is offensive to Protestants (and the very idea of “Holy Sacrifice of Calvary” is grossly offensive to Protestants) and which the Vatican itself cannot affirm is wholly orthodox and pleasing to God.
It ain’t, as they say, rocket science.
Editor
How many Catholics know even one iota of what you say?
I’m certainly ignorant of most of it and I am one who didn’t
like the new Mass from day one.
As I have said in the past, it is fine and dandy to attend a TLM when it is on your doorstep but not so simple otherwise.
It is even less simple to be sitting at home having ” dry” Masses, saying the rosary or reading scripture when there are a thousand jobs to be done at certain times.
I don’t think my wife would be too happy hoovering around me while the grass is growing up past the window and the maintenance on the house (like the Forth Bridge) has to be done.
I offer up my work at all times as a prayer and I nearly always say the rosary while driving, etc.
To be sitting at home on a Sunday like the Dalai Llama would be a bit much and I don’t mean to be cheeky.
I asked a few questions the other day regarding other devotions re. The SSPX but have still to be filled in.
Here’s another two: how can a Catholic marriage take place if there are no valid Catholic Services or Church available and, likewise, a child’s baptism?
Petrus did mention that he still does the Stations of The Cross and confessions at a NO church but if everyone stopped going to them they would all have to close and that would put the hammer on that.
Does this “invincible ignorance”, or whatever, not offer a means of salvation to those who are invincibly ignorant (like myself)?
Frankier,
You’re not invincibly ignorant – you know the truth. Invincible ignorance means when someone doesn’t know the truth. There has been loads of information and links given on here to make sure we all know the truth about the Mass and the SSPX. Any of us who had doubts about the Society now have them swept away by the facts.
I think that Editor and Athanasius have amply explained the position but you are still not understanding. I think what they’ve said and it all boils down to is if you want to keep on doing what you’re doing, fine. Nobody’s “judging” you. I think it’s great that you are not that bothered and can stand the new Mass etc. Lucky you. The last one I attended was actually not too bad, but I still can’t think of it as the Mass. Sorry. The two Masses are like chalk and cheese.
Your question about the devotions in the SSPX chapels etc has been answered by Athanasius and I recall it being answered before when it was explained at they are like an emergency group who give the necessary sacraments and devotions when possible. I have been at an SSPX Mass followed by Benediction (once a month) and there is always Rosary before Mass. It’s a time of crisis and it’s more important to get the true Mass than devotions that we can say ourselves, such as the Rosary. During famine people want bread and water, not cakes and lemonade, LOL!
Margaret Mary
Well done for putting me on the right path. Hallelujah!
I am saved now.
With all due respects, whilst I totally respect and sometimes envy (even though it is a mortal sin) Athanasius’ and Editor’s wise counsel I was unaware that they are the complete authority on Catholic teaching even though it is only your own word I have to go by.
I really don’t think I should be shot down for putting pertinent questions before deciding to make what would be the biggest decision I had made in my life, and I have made many.
You say that any one who has doubts about the society
has had them swept away by the facts.
Could you detail these so called facts, to make it easier for me, with the name of the stamped authority?
As for the questions that have been (un)answered. Where would you suggest I should advise my family to marry and, if they have any family,to have them baptised when the nearest SSPX church is fifty miles away?
if I did decide to hike to Glasgow, could you give me the times of daily Mass, Rosary and Benediction, Exposition and daily confessions in Renfrew Street, as I must have missed all that info. when it was published.
Before I finish, could I point out that you said nobody’s
judging me and then you went into a rant about me not being bothered and being able to stand the new Mass, etc.
Is that not being judgmental?
And why the capital M for the NO Mass? Does that not mean that you recognise it also?
Margaret Mary
If I did attend St. Andrews will there be any cake and lemonade on the menu?
Sorry, I don’t know the answer to that! I hear they have tea though!
Sorry, I have annoyed you by my trying to help. I didn’t mean to write a rant, please accept my apologies. I remember annoying you before, so maybe I should body swerve your posts as “tact” isn’t my middle name!
I’ll just say a couple more things, I don’t think you will find any kind of “authority” on this, that is down to our own informed consciences. I’ve never heard Editor or Athanasius say they were experts and I’m definitely not an expert – I just know that I can’t stand the novus ordo and that it is totally different from the traditional Mass.
I always put a capital M for Mass because even the new Mass can be a valid Mass, if you want to take the chance that it is. I would personally rather stay at home and say my rosary than attend it if there wasn’t a traditional Mass within reach. It doesn’t have to be an SSPX Mass, there’s a FSSP Mass in Edinburgh and an Una Voce Mass in Glasgow on Sundays, thanks to the SSPX, really, because they are allowed in the diocese to keep us from the SSPX where the faith is fully preached. However it’s not always possible or necessary to go to their Masses.
No, I wasn’t being judgmental. I got the impression that you are OK to attend the novus ordo and I only acknowledged that, otherwise why do you get so angry when the novus ordo is criticised? With respect, I was surprised at your reasons for not spending time in spiritual reading/dry Mass etc. that your wife would be hovering around you. I really don’t think we’re supposed to do work on the Sabbath so that shouldn’t be an issue.
I apologise in advance if this offends you but I do think we all need to remember to keep the Sabbath holy by not doing servile work – I include myself in that as I sometimes do housework and even shopping, but I do think it’s breaking the Commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day.
I do hope this isn’t thought to be another “rant” or I’ll just stop replying to yours. I don’t mean to offend but it’s not easy in a discussion about controversial stuff not to say something that will annoy somebody. I do try not to, though, even if I keep failing. LOL !
Margaret Mary
Please don`t apologise. You have nothing to apologise for.
I do sometimes go overboard when this subject crops up. I make distance the excuse for not being able to attend a SSPX Mass and it is part of the reason but I have other reasons, private, which I would not wish to discuss on a public forum. So I would like to leave it at that.
I don`t really get angry when the NO gets criticised, I criticise it plenty myself, and as for my wife “hoovering around me” that was more rhetoric than fact. I was just trying to point out what the/my real world can be like.
As I have explained a few minutes ago to the Editor, sometimes my efforts in being funny can be taken as sarcasm, which is not the case. I would rather say outright what I think rather than skirt the issue, so it`s maybe me who should be apologising.
God Bless.
Awwww, thank you Frankier! That was a lovely post.
I think I understand your position, and I agree that it is better to say what you think rather than skirt round about the issue.
Don’t apologise to me – I know you meant no harm.
Why are you folks not out enjoying the sunshine! Gerragrip! With sunglasses on!
Theology is banned during the good weather 😀
In fact I dispense Frankier from attending any Catholic parish and allow a special dispensation so that he can attend the nearest ecumenical service, which I believe is in Japanese, about half a minute from his doorstep! 😀
Margaret Mary
I wonder if you do break the Commandment by shopping or doing housework. I think sometimes these things can’t be avoided. Provided you don’t do your weekly shop on a Sunday and come out of Asda with a trolley full, I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with getting a few bits and pieces.
Similarly, is there anything wrong with light housework on a Sunday? I don’t think so.
Petrus
Phew! That’s a relief!
Petrus/Editor
I was taught that it was a sin to do any work on the Sabbath that wasn’t essential.
I do understand that it’s not a rigid thing, maybe if we need essentials like a loaf or something that would be OK to buy but to do housework e.g. that didn’t need to be done, I would have thought was breaking the commandment. We are supposed to rest on the holy day in order to pray and read more and give more time to God. If we use it for housework then I can’t see how that is not a sin, at least a venial sin.
First of all, let me just confirm for the sake of the crowd that I am indeed foolhardy, if not reckless to the point of being deranged. Me, barely a light-welterweight having a bout with TWO heavyweights in Athanasius and Ed. (sorry Ed. but you did extol the inventor of the elasticated waistband). I fully realise that I’ll only end up getting a good kicking (obviously Marquis of Queensbury Rules don’t apply) but at least I might scuff their boots before they deliver the coup de grâce. Anyway…..
The crucial question for me in this discussion is whether the novus ordo Mass, despite its adverse alterations and flagrant abuses, is still nevertheless a re-presentation of Calvary or does it actually have no more value than a group of primitive tribesmen sacrificing a bullock in the hope of a good harvest? If it’s the latter then a lot of people are in a lot of trouble and I’m struggling to understand how the world is still in existence bearing in mind that St.Teresa of Avila said that ‘the Holy Mass alone can hold back God’s arm and without it all here below would perish’, how can God’s arm still be restrained (notwithstanding the infinite value of even one Mass) 500 years later when there are so few ‘genuine’ Masses being said and wickedness has increased exponentially?
If however,the former proposition is in fact the reality and the Son of God does appear on the altar in the hands of the priest at every novus ordo Mass, can those who attend with a humble and contrite heart and an attitude of worshipful adoration NOT derive (potentially limitless) graces (sorrow for sins,strengthening of the bonds of charity,protection from danger,a shorter Purgatory,etc) from their attendance? Yes,the priest and elements within the Church itself may or have imposed reprehensible innovations, the behaviour of the congregation may be more suited to a concert recital and Jesus’ very Presence in the tabernacle may be barely acknowledged but if that novus ordo Mass is still Jesus Christ offering Himself in an unbloody manner to God the Father, then even the half-hearted, the careless and the downright disrespectful can still be potentially touched by the Event unfolding in front of them. I cannot see how staying at home and saying your own prayers and devotions could possibly substitute for ‘even’ an N.O. Mass, irrespective of your contention that the ‘new Mass is manifestly not pleasing to God’ i.e. (and forgive me for taking that statement to its logical conclusion) Jesus’ Reappearance on the altar is not offering God the Father any praise,thanks,expiation or supplication. I am compelled to disagree.
P.S. Your reply suggested I “stop playing silly beggars”. I can assure you that I’m not “silly” (at least not when it concerns the ‘One Thing that is needed’) and I also choose to use my (hopefully) grace-infused intellect on a regular basis which should disqualify me from being a ‘beggar’ – because as we all know beggars can’t be choosers. I hope you can see ‘where I’m coming from’ though I strongly suspect you’ll beg to differ.
Spudeater,
I only have time to answer one question in your most recent post (more in due course!)
You ask:
“The crucial question for me in this discussion is whether the novus ordo Mass, despite its adverse alterations and flagrant abuses, is still nevertheless a re-presentation of Calvary or does it actually have no more value than a group of primitive tribesmen sacrificing a bullock in the hope of a good harvest?”
Below is a Mass at which a senior cardinal officiates – so you tell me ….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Lom28KSlg
Clearly, while a novus ordo may be “valid” (the basic minimum) the really crucial question is, is “validity” enough? Shouldn’t every Mass be seen clearly to be the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary? Is it clear on that video? Surely a senior cardinal means to re-present Calvary in the Mass? And surely all those young, un-catechised teenagers in the audience, oops, congregation, will know exactly that this is the Calvary sacrifice re-enacted before them? Of course! Traditional Latin Mass that the martyrs gave their life’s blood to attend and defend? Who needs it!
This video clip is heartbreaking. May the Lord have mercy on these people.
It’s disgusting!
I actually don’t think that this celebration may be valid…
While I have a couple of reservations about the SSPX’s canonical position, and as a rule, I am highly suspicious of apparitions and prophecies, it would be hard not to be impressed by the priests and seminarians in that video. If only the Church had a few more priests with such dedication and apostolic zeal, we would be in a far better state than we are now!
I’ve never noticed it before, but Our Lady spoke only of the ‘Republic of Ecuador’ in these prophecies that we take as applying to the world. Can anyone explain this odd fact?
Christina,
That’s something I only noticed myself recently – I’m not sure how to find out more about that. Westminster Fly is something of an expert on apparitions – I will email him in case he misses your question.
Thank you for promoting me to an ‘expert’ Ed! I hope the pay rise is commensurate with my new title . . . . but anyway, I’ve always understood it – rightly or wrongly – that some of Quito was more generalised, for the whole world, like when Mother Mariana was asked if she would become a sacrificial victim to placate the Divine Justice for the heresies, impieties and impurities that would be committed in the 20th century (and Ecuador certainly has no monopoly on heresy, impiety and blasphemy!) but then there were prophecies more specific to Ecuador like the life, mission and death of Gabriel Garcia Moreno. http://www.chiesaviva.com/413%20en.pdf
Thank you WF. I want to ask something about Our Lady of Good Success, but it is clearly off topic here. I’d be really grateful if you would pick it up on the GD thread😐.
Many thanks, Ed.
Rorate has an interesting interview with Bishop Fellay, taken from a French newspaper. It is well worth a read. Some highlights from +Fellays responses:
On Pope Francis:
“There is no doubt that Pope Francis, then Cardinal Bergoglio, had promised to help the Society obtain the Argentinian State’s recognition of our society as Catholic and that he kept his promise. So we have no choice but to think that he does consider us Catholic”
Regarding the reactions of Cardinal Brandmuller and Bishop Schneider following their visits to various SSPX seminaries:
“They were very satisfied. ‘You are normal people,’ they told us…which goes to show the reputation we have! They congratulated us on the quality of our seminarians. There is no doubt that their conclusion after this first closer contact was that we are a work of the Church.
Asked whether there is discreet contact with supportive Bishops:
“Of course! When we see that priests are coming closer to us today and entering into contact with us, we can easily conclude that the same is true on the higher level…
Asked about the future of the SSPX:
“I see a peaceful future”
And the Bishops concluding remarks:
“In my opinion, we are on the eve of important events that we cannot yet define very well. I would like to call for prayers and end with a gaze towards God, which allows us to always have hope
I took heart from this interview. Of course, its not all peaches and cream – the Bishop also talks about less satisfactory issues, such as the incoherence evident in the differing attitudes which various Vatican Congregations take towards the Society. He also criticises the treatment of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate and takes the opportunity to put the boot into “The Resistance to nothing” cranks.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/06/sspx-superior-general-after-vatican.html
Thanks for that post Gabriel
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