Vatican Event: Why Would Pope Francis Permit Protestant Heresy To Be Sung?

Vatican Event: Why Would Pope Francis Permit Protestant Heresy To Be Sung?

I found these videos on the website of The Remnant earlier today.  In the above video, Michael Voris of Church Militant TV rightly exposes the fact that the popular “Amazing Grace” should not be sung in Catholic churches as routinely happens these days, but now he faces a dilemma since it’s been sung within the Vatican walls – in the presence of Pope Francis himself: he who, according to Mr Voris, is above and beyond all criticism.  Watch the performance below – and weep to see princes of the Church behaving like Pentecostal Protestants and a pope apparently moved to tears by a  Protestant “hymn” packed with heresy.  And – as a side issue, because who, really, gives a toss – ask yourself what it will take to get Michael Voris to waken up and admit that the problem within the Church today – the problem – is Papa Francis.

I have to admit that I’ve never liked “Amazing Grace” –  tuneless, heretical  and singularly uninspiring. Why any priest would choose it over the many beautiful traditional Catholic hymns available, beats me. If you can think of a reason, spill. Ditto if you can think of a reason why the Pope (any pope) would permit Protestant heresy to be said, read or sung, in his presence, with his approval, and the obvious approval of the swaying, with-it/cool cardinals within the Vatican walls.

Or perhaps you are one of those who sang along innocently, not realising that it is a Protestant song containing heresy? I’ve met people in that category and I couldn’t even swear on oath that I’ve never sung it myself in years gone by, although I can definitely swear, hand on heart and a stack of bibles, that I’ve never liked it.  There is so much confusion in the Church today and so little sound teaching in pulpits and schools, that there are undoubtedly innocent members of congregations who will have joined in the singing, without realising that they were “praising God” with heresy.  And now we’ll even find some who will say “Well, if it’s good enough for the Pope, it’s good enough for me” (with the sub-text, “and it should be good enough for God!”)

Truly, you couldn’t make it up. Anyway, read the Remnant article on the subject here and then share your thoughts (politely!)

Comments (102)

  • Bernadette Milliken

    Maybe for the same reason he says Jews are saved and atheists fo to heaveN non we have no church my friends

    Sent from my iPad


    August 17, 2015 at 9:54 pm
    • editor

      You’re no friend of Catholic Truth (in every sense of those words) if you think Christ has or possibly could fail in His promise to be with His Church until the end of time.

      I’ve noticed your tactic before, of trying to kick start a discussion with some daft comment and then disappearing. Don’t. We are not amused. If you haven’t anything meaningful to say, then sort the words below into a well known phrase or saying…

      lost get. 😀

      August 17, 2015 at 10:03 pm
  • bencjcarter

    I ignore anything and everything done or said by this [pontiff]. No point in wasting time over it, given that Father Amorth told Father Nicholas Gruner a week or two before the latter died (April 2015) that the Great Chastisement would commence “within eight months”.

    August 17, 2015 at 10:09 pm
    • editor


      YOU feel free to ignore everything and anything said or done by this Pope. Indeed, YOU feel free not to comment on anything on this blog. Some of us, on the other hand, DO want to comment.

      And I did say, did I not, that all are welcome to comment but politely, hence I removed your dreadful description of Pope Francis. If you think such name-calling indicates a love of the Faith, think again. It most certainly does not. Keep the name calling for a quite different class of blog. We don’t tolerate it here.

      Father Amorth is not infallible, or wasn’t last time I looked. He is also an adherent of Medjugorje, so forgive me if I choose NOT to put my opinions on hold awaiting the punishment to come by October, latest, based on his personal calculations/views.

      Now, if you don’t have an opinion about the subject of the thread, say “bye for now” and we’ll see you in some future discussion. This one is as stated at the top of this thread and any diversions will be deleted the minute I see them and that includes all responses to them. This is a blog for grown ups. There must be one somewhere for the younger generation/those with less mature minds.

      August 17, 2015 at 10:14 pm
      • bencjcarter

        My comment was that I have no comment. How does that stop anyone else commenting?

        August 19, 2015 at 11:32 am
      • Margaret Mary

        It didn’t! And your comment below about African liturgy was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

        August 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm
  • morgana

    I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that should the pope not obey what our Lady asked at Fatima then the world will be chastised.I honestly believe it is not too late for the pope to change it may be unlikely but not impossible and whilst I believe that fr amorth told fr gruner that the chastisement would commence within the next eight months I would be very interested to know if our Lord revealed this information to fr amorth personally.I am not naive or blind and the October synod may well be the factor that forces Our Lords hand but none of us are privy to that information it will happen when God decides.

    August 17, 2015 at 10:31 pm
    • editor

      In the meantime, what are your views about Amazing Grace?

      August 17, 2015 at 10:43 pm
      • Constantine

        Did it not get to number one in the charts at one time?

        August 20, 2015 at 11:00 pm
  • Petrus

    I played this hymn a lot in the Church of Scotland. It was a firm favourite and they sang it with gusto. Why? Because it espouses one of the Heresies or the Reformation – sola gratia. This heresy says that all that is required is God’s grace. This is true in a sense, but Protestants take this to the heretical extreme. They argue that there is no merit in good works and describe grace is being some sort of magic spell.

    It’s absolutely crazy that Pope Francis would allow this. We have a whole heritage of beautiful music and he chooses a a Protestant hymn.

    August 17, 2015 at 11:08 pm
    • Fidelis


      That’s really very interesting. I’d heard of sola scriptura but never sola gratia.

      I thought it was grotesque to see the Pope standing there and the cardinals swaying bodily. In fact, I’d say it was demonic.

      The Remnant comment was excellent – thank goodness for these Catholic sources online to help us be informed.

      August 17, 2015 at 11:38 pm
  • morgana

    Obviously not for singing in a catholic church but I think I may well have on occasion hummed along or sang a few lines quite innocently

    August 17, 2015 at 11:21 pm
    • Fidelis


      I’ve sung along with Amazing Grace in church not realising that it was heretical. I think that’s partly because of the way some of the saints spoke about their “wretchedness” before God, that kind of thing. It’s much clearer in my mind now though, and I do have to add that I don’t like the tune at all. It is really miserable, in fact.

      August 17, 2015 at 11:41 pm
  • Christina

    Perhaps, like me, everyone is still cringing from this abhorrent spectacle and can’t yet get to grips with the real question. I’ve always thought that with its horrible slurs it’s a song for drunks, and isn’t music by any stretch of the imagination. Seeing those churchmen acting like that without a shred of dignity – ugh. Pass me a sick-bowl😦

    August 17, 2015 at 11:46 pm
    • Constantine

      But what about Voris’ syrup of figs? I wonder.

      August 20, 2015 at 11:25 pm
  • morgana

    The video to me is like something you would find in a gospel church all this outstretched arms and swaying bodies all very charismatic and disgraceful that the clergy are embracing it and participating in it.Maybe Pope Francis with his head bowed is ashamed off what’s going on. JOKE

    August 18, 2015 at 12:02 am
    • editor


      “Maybe Pope Francis with his head bowed is ashamed of what’s going on…”

      That was my own first thought quickly followed by “if only”…

      He seems to be very keen on the whole charismatic business, judging from his relationship with the now deceased young Protestant pastor and his various comments at ecumenical gatherings. All incredibly sad.

      August 18, 2015 at 12:43 am
      • Constantine

        “All incredibly sad.”

        Oh, no, not sorrow and disappointment again? You tried that with O’Brien for years and it got you nowhere.

        August 20, 2015 at 11:15 pm
      • editor

        Actually, Constantine, I meant to kindly correct you when, on another thread, you charitably accused me of being charitable (!) and expressing only sorrow and disappointment in the case of Cardinal O’Brien – and now Papa Francis. No way! “All incredibly sad” means that it is, in fact, incredibly sad that these high churchmen are so blind, and, if only they knew it, the cause of so much righteous anger among the faithful, myself included.

        For, contrary to your most charitable interpretation, I have – down the years and without apology – expressed righteous anger (not, I hope, mere bad temper) at the way the Cardinal ignored the scandals we reported and which – in any event – he knew all about and even supported (think Fr Andrew Monaghan on radio giving out “gay” helpline phone numbers, encouraging abortions and every other kind of aberration imaginable, which the Cardinal described as “doing God’s work and the Pope’s.”)

        So, while you may have heard me express some sympathy for the Cardinal at the time of his dramatic fall from grace, given his high profile words of opposition to homosexual activity, especially in the same-sex “marriage” debate, that does not change the fact that, as all Catholics should, I was, in fact, very angry indeed with him and the rest of his brother bishops, for aiding and abetting the destruction of the Catholic Church in Scotland over a period of years. And I remain so – hoping I do not shock you too much!

        Still, thank you Constantine for your charity in my regard. I fully appreciate your kind words – and I only wish they were true!

        August 20, 2015 at 11:36 pm
      • Constantine

        Sorry, I got ‘sorrow and disappointment’ the wrong way round; it was actually disappointment over the years and, finally, sorrow with the Cardinal — I only wish that were true!

        August 21, 2015 at 12:04 am
      • Athanasius


        It was not “sorrow with the Cardinal,” since the Cardinal himself has never really conveyed a true sorrow for his actions. No, it was sorrow for him and the great damage he has done to so many souls.

        August 21, 2015 at 12:51 am
      • Constantine

        Of course, he has never conveyed a true sorrow for his actions…

        Editor: last part of the above sentence removed – apart from being mere speculation, it is inappropriate in the extreme. Behave, Constantine.

        August 21, 2015 at 2:10 am
      • spudeater


        Sometimes I can become disheartened when I think about the state of the Church today. Then I read one of your comments…..and I feel just that little bit worse.

        August 21, 2015 at 8:09 am
      • Constantine

        Sorry, that comment was probably 5 whiskies and ginger ale up. Unlike O’Brien who’d need at 15 just to get going… ask Damien Thompson.

        August 24, 2015 at 11:48 pm
    • Athanasius


      Spot on! This kind of nonsense originated in the performance theatres of Pentecostals. Absolutely disgraceful treachery.

      August 18, 2015 at 1:39 am
  • Athanasius

    Shocking stuff! Not remotely Catholic. Superficial emotional claptrap that bears no resemblance whatsoever to true Catholic worship. And Pope Francis, God have mercy on him, just stood there like a powered down robot. What a terrible decline from the days of Pius XII and those sacred supernatural liturgies of Holy Mother Church. Truly heart rending.

    August 18, 2015 at 1:37 am
    • gabriel syme

      just stood there like a powered down robot

      Thats hilarious Athanasius!

      August 19, 2015 at 10:27 am
  • liberanos

    Amazing Grace,Kumbaya, Shine Jesus Shine, All firm favourites in Catholic Churches these days. Says it all really.

    August 18, 2015 at 7:09 am
  • Clotilde

    Am ashamed to say that I have sung along to this heretical hymn when I went to Mass NO times without knowing that it was so pro-Protestantism.

    It is embarrassing to watch the princes of the church behaving in this way. Lord, have mercy on us.

    I used to love all the hymns we sang as children which contain so much of the doctrines and teachings of the church.
    Unfortunately we rarely hear them even in the SSPX chapel O attend. After the low Sunday Mass we have a hymn but most of the congregation don’t join in because they don’t know it. The folk who choose the hymns have their preferred choices which I have never learnt.
    Bring back ‘Sweet Sacrament Divine’, ‘Jesus Thou art Coming..’, ‘Come holy Ghost, ‘Lord for Tomorrow’ . In pre-Vatican days we used to have more hymns sung throughout the Mass even when a high Mass.

    Some of the words in the hymns to Our Lady have been changed in the most recently published NO hymnals. Shocking.

    August 18, 2015 at 2:51 pm
    • Vianney

      “most of the congregation don’t join in because they don’t know it.”

      Unless they join in they will never know the hymns.

      August 21, 2015 at 9:59 pm
  • Therese

    I do agree with you, Clotilde. I miss the old hymns, and my only criticism of Mass in SSPX chapels is that they seem to be prejudiced against singing any hymns that aren’t in Latin! The same is true of the local Indult Mass. I love the old hymns to Our Lady, but rarely, if ever, get the chance to sing them (except when I’m doing the housework!).

    August 18, 2015 at 4:56 pm
    • editor

      Clotilde and Therese,

      I couldn’t agree more. I have spoken to our priests a lot about this matter and always, I have to admit, find them willing to listen and understanding of the fact that such beautiful hymns drive home doctrine and deepen devotion. We have two priests, one of whom has no problem with us singing but says he can’t keep a tune so can’t start or join in. That leaves only the lady who kindly does start us off, but we don’t always get much of a selection, with respect to her. I suppose she is choosing the hymns which she thinks most people will know. The other priest does start a hymn at the end of Mass when he comes, so we do get some, but it tends to be limited to Sweet Sacrament Divine or Hail Queen of Heaven. Not a lot else. And, sadly, no organ. I LOVE the organ accompaniment.

      The problem I have found is with some laity who think only Latin should be allowed. These are NEVER people of an age to have known the Mass before Vatican II. I find it very frustrating. In one case, he didn’t even think a hymn after Mass was right. This is the danger of a crisis like this lasting so long. So much of Catholic devotional life is being lost because of silliness like this.

      When I visited Ireland I was heartened to find a small group (mostly men) who were, effectively, a small choir. They had an organ as well and sang a hymn (selection of, every Sunday/holy day) at the end of Mass. When I explained our situation, they told me that they’d just decided to sing and went ahead, no “dialogue” with the priest or anything! Rebels. Of course, the priest knew them and knew they could be trusted to choose Catholic hymns (from the SSPX hymn book – little chance of any danger there!)

      One of my happiest memories of growing up in my home parish is of singing a whole bunch of lovely hymns at the end of Mass, or after Communion, which, as Morgana says, could move to tears. It is incredibly sad that we are losing this source of, how shall I put it, amazing grace! 😀

      August 18, 2015 at 8:41 pm
      • LindainPA

        I grew up in the German Protestant churches where people sang their hearts out! I must admit that that is the one thing I miss most as a Catholic. As an organist, I find many of the newer Catholic songs seem more performance oriented than written for congregational singing. Doesn’t anyone write hymns any more?

        Accompaniments for some of the these songs are not written for the organ, and must be recreated by organists to provide a useful accompaniment for congregational singing. Even some of the new Mass settings do not have organ-friendly accompaniments.

        Our missalette reminds me of television these days (and why we canceled cable!). Television provides many many stations, yet, often there was little worth watching! Our missalette has too many selections I would/will never use.

        August 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm
      • Vianney

        At our chapel we have a hymn after Mass on all Sundays and Holydays and the first Sunday of the month is a Sung Mass. We have a very good choir who are all “enthusiastic amateurs” but do a good job.

        Those who say that hymns were never sung at Mass are havering. In the Parish I used to attend the 6.30 and 7.30 Masses had no hymns. The 9 o’clock had two hymns while the 10.15 Mass had four (entrance, Offertory, Communion and recessional) and the 11.30 was Sung. It had been like this since long before the changes and I’ve heard other people say that in their parishes there was always a Mass with four hymns. A few years ago I attended Mass at an SSPX chapel in America and there were four hymns sung, all vernacular.

        I think one of the problems with the SSPX in the UK is that when most of the Mass Centres used halls it was all very makeshift and there were no hymnals. Sadly, this situation carried on when the congregation moved into a church. I know that here in Edinburgh it was the congregation themselves who pushed for hymns and Sung Masses as there was a fear that children would never know the old hymns. Often, when we have Novus Ordo visitors you can hear them singing the old hymns with gusto and afterwards will comment, often visibly moved, “I havenae heard that hymn for years.”

        August 21, 2015 at 10:49 pm
      • Athanasius


        I don’t mean this to be disrespectful to your choir but they put me right off singing the hymns when I visit Edinburgh. They sing far too high for any normal voice to join in. Maybe that’s why the Church always had mainly male choirs. The most disappointing thing for me is that I have not been able to join in the Christmas carols at Midnight Mass in Edinburgh for a few years now. I just can’t sing like a soprano. Maybe you could have a kind word and ask them to step down a few octaves for the benefit of the male faithful.

        August 21, 2015 at 11:13 pm
      • Vianney

        Athanasius, One of the problems is that the music edition of the St. Andrew Hymnal has the tunes pitched quite high. Perhaps when it was compiled they thought all men were like certain unfortunate singers in the Vatican choirs of long ago.

        August 22, 2015 at 11:02 pm
      • Athanasius


        I see what you mean. Maybe the answer is to find another hymnal, one more suited to the male voice.

        August 23, 2015 at 12:16 am
      • editor


        That is precisely my fear – that the youngsters will grow up not knowing the lovely old hymns with which I grew up. I have, on occasion, tried to sing them for my own Great-Nephews/Nieces in the car going home from Mass, but it doesn’t always work – either I forget some of the words or like your novus ordo visitors, they are visibly moved (usually to hilarious laughter) OR they suddenly fall into a deep sleep, and only waken up when I ask if anyone wants to go to MacDonald’s!

        I exaggerate (but only slightly!) It is very sad indeed to flick through the hymn book and realise that my lovely little relatives may never hear the majority of those doctrinally and devotionally rich hymns. Very sad,

        August 22, 2015 at 12:12 am
      • Vianney

        Editor, perhaps you could get a tape of traditional hymns to play in the car. That way you can put your family out of their misery.

        August 22, 2015 at 11:04 pm
    • Vianney

      The Church has always allowed hymns in the vernacular at low Masses so people who refuse to sing them are wrong. At Sung masses only Latin hymns are supposed to be sung but if you look at the video of a Sung Mass from St. Nicholas du Chardonnet in Paris they sing a vernacular hymn at Communion. This is also done in Belgium and the Netherlands. What they say is that while vernacular hymns are forbidden at High Masses, they are allowed at Sung Masses.

      August 21, 2015 at 10:25 pm
  • cbucket

    Maybe the Pope is a Star Trek fan ? (

    It is only a personal anecdote but on the subject of Protestant hyms I can remember being a bit ignorant when I was a child of what was (or was not) a Catholic hymn. My mother, who was a convert, used to go absolutely bonkers whenever a Protestant hymn was played during, or at the end of Mass.

    I have come to the conclusion that (in the main) the Bishops (including the Pope) are basically liberals. Their philosophy is that anybody who is liberal is ok. Therefore liberal Catholics, Protestants, even Pagans are ok. Conservative is Anathema which includes conservatives in other religions (e.g. Orthodox Muslims, Jews, Christians).

    Tolerance is the new Dogma.

    August 18, 2015 at 5:47 pm
    • editor


      “I have come to the conclusion that (in the main) the Bishops (including the Pope) are basically liberals.”

      You don’t say! Really? Add “with bells on” and you’re almost correct!

      You are so right about tolerance being the new dogma, except where we are concerned,. There’s no “tolerance” for so called “traditional” Catholics, believe me.

      August 18, 2015 at 8:47 pm
  • morgana

    I to love the old hymns and even though I am not terribly old believe it or not I did actually learn them at school.I sometimes get moved to tears by the beautiful words and music a far cry from the hallelujah songs masquerading as hymns in the church today

    August 18, 2015 at 7:12 pm
    • editor


      “…and even though I am not terribly old believe it or not…”

      I believe you! Thousands wouldn’t!

      August 18, 2015 at 8:47 pm
  • Clotilde

    We used to stand in class lines in the hall (in the ..recent past…cough cough) to sing our hymns and be prompted by the nuns to sing out. I’m sure it not only helped us with our faith it must have helped our reading skills.
    O those were the days..

    August 18, 2015 at 9:27 pm
  • Christina

    Same here Clotilde. We had school assembly ending with a hymn every day (for 7 years for me), and I can honestly say that I know pretty well the whole of the Westminster hymnal by heart. Now when anyone pushes a hymn book at me I refuse and say “I know it”. It’s just a pity my singing voice has gone! We do have a hymn after Mass at SSPX here, but quite scandalously the hymn books in use are copies of ‘The Celebration Hymn Book’ which contains modernist garbage, some of it heretical.

    I’ve come across people who are dead set against hymns after Mass. I think it’s because in happier days it was not done, but of course there were then many other occasions for singing hymns.

    My old blind Irish granny, with whom I lived for a short time, used to be visited by a neighbour when some programme like ‘Songs of Praise’ was on the radio, and together they would lustily join in with very ribald versions of the (Protestant) hymns. I specially liked ‘Praise the Lord for I am coming, In a donkey cart; The wheels are bent and the shafts are broke, And the donkey…..’. I won’t go on or I’ll get heavily censored. Seriously, we used to say that the Devil had all the best tunes, and I used to wish I could sing something like ‘When I survey the wondrous Cross, On which the Prince of Glory died…’, or ‘Guide me O Thou great Redeemer’ sung to ‘Cwm Rhondda’, of course.

    August 19, 2015 at 1:44 am
    • Petrus

      I’ve heard this said several times that in happier days hymns weren’t sung at Mass. I don’t think this was a general rule. I’ve spoken to others who have fond memories of hymns at Mass. It must have depended on which parish you went to.

      I grew up in the 80s and the hymns we sang were garbage. “As I kneel before you” is one that sticks in my mind. I confess I really like it, for the childlike simplicity. Completely unsuitable for Mass but fun to sing at home.

      I must admit I still play and sing some modern hymns, including Protestant hymns, at home. Provided they aren’t heretical I don’t see the harm of doing this privately.

      August 19, 2015 at 7:32 am
      • gabriel syme

        I grew up in the 80s and the hymns we sang were garbage.

        I absolutely know what you mean Petrus. That era was abysmal.

        Stuff like “Colours of Day” (argh) etc – such musical poverty when compared to the Church’s rich and beautiful tradition of music and song.

        When I got married, I thought we had chosen pretty good hymns but now – more aware of real Catholic hymns and music – I find them quite cheesy and somewhat embarrassing. I remember sternly forbidding the suggested inclusion of “Shine, Jesus, Shine” (ugh) and thinking I had done well, but now I see some of the other choices were not much better. In our defence, we did have the creed sung in latin.

        At primary school, we were abused with “Christian Rock” music, with guitar / drum solos etc. I do not recall the names of the songs, but it was pretty dismal. I always remember this line (we never sang it, it was just played to us repeatedly on a tape-recorder):

        “Go-od with us, so close to us, Go-od with us, Emanueeeeeeeeeeeeel

        Even now I wince.

        And just as the old hymns reinforced doctrine, so too some of the new ones advanced modernism. A brief example:

        One more step along the world I go,
        One more step along the world I go,
        From the old things, to the new
        Keep me travelling along with you,


        And its from the old I’ll travel to the new,
        Keep me travelling along with you

        Pretty sneaky huh?

        I love the traditional hymns, very few of which were familiar to me from youth. I did know “God of mercy and compassion” but a very much revised / redacted version.

        I had never heard “Hail Queen of Heaven”, “The Lourdes Hymn (Immaculate Mary)”, “Full in the panting heart of Rome” etc.

        Thats what you call hymns!

        I once heard The Lourdes Hymn in a Novus Ordo Church in recent years, but it was sung from verse 3 or so onwards, to avoid the early mention of “Our father (The Pope) and Rome”. Ridiculous.

        August 19, 2015 at 10:44 am
      • Christina

        My memory’s rubbish, Petrus, and you’ve jogged it. Now I remember we did sometimes have hymns at the Offertory and Communion – especially ‘Jesus Thou art coming’ at Communion. A hymn like that did much to build up a child’s faith in the Real Presence. In my post I referred to hymns after Mass, not during Mass. I would be surprised if what you have been told was widespread. Maybe you Scots liked singing more than us Sassenachs. 😷

        August 19, 2015 at 10:54 am
    • editor


      “In happier days” it WAS done – certainly in the parish in which I grew up, where the sermons were rock solid (despite one curate later admitting that in his case that was only because “in those days curates had to toe the party line”) My own feeling is that where it wasn’t done, it must have been because the priest didn’t particularly like singing, and didn’t see its importance for reinforcing/teaching doctrine and deepening devotion. And since he didn’t like singing and lacked that vision, too bad for the rest of us. If I’ve learned one thing in my observations about the clergy this past 50 odd years, it’s that the majority, sadly, lack elementary zeal. I often wonder why, on earth, they became priests.

      We always had hymns (with choir and organ) during Communion, including Panis Angelicus and Ave Maria, and then a hymn at the end of Mass. As Petrus says, perhaps in some parishes this was not the case but where I grew up it was the norm, thankfully.

      August 19, 2015 at 10:07 am
      • Christina

        See my reply to Petrus. Sorry to have started an argument without intending to. In ‘my’ old days I assure you, it would never have been lack of zeal in our priests that caused any custom like hymns after Mass or lack of them. The probable reason in my parish and in all five parishes in my town is that there were huge congregations at all Masses, and inevitably a bit of a push towards the doors at the end – often to relieve a wife or husband who was minding a young baby and had to get to the next Mass, which followed on maybe after only five minutes or so. In contrast to the custom these days, born of necessity, very young babies were not usually taken to Mass. I remember, also that one’s thanksgiving after Communion on Sundays was cut short by people arriving for the next Mass.

        August 19, 2015 at 11:22 am
    • Vianney

      “We do have a hymn after Mass at SSPX here, but quite scandalously the hymn books in use are copies of ‘The Celebration Hymn Book’ which contains modernist garbage, some of it heretical.”

      I have heard about this, is your chapel in the South of England?

      August 21, 2015 at 10:03 pm
      • Christina

        Vianney, no, it’s in the north-west of England.

        August 22, 2015 at 11:48 pm
      • Vianney

        Christina, I was getting my hymn books mixed up. I was thinking about the Parish Hymn Book which is used at a chapel in the South of England. I wonder why they are using the Celebration Hymn Book, it doesn’t make much sense. Perhaps someone could compile a hymnal of traditional hymns for use in the chapel. That’s what we did in Edinburgh when we could no longer get hold of copies of the St. Andrew Hymnal.

        August 23, 2015 at 10:58 pm
  • Spero

    I don’t have the memories some of you have of Catholic hymns, being a convert. However I do have memories of Amazing Grace, and other more rousing Protestant hymns, accompanied by tambourines, guitars and people swaying, arms extended.
    I simply could not espouse this manner of Christianity ( there will be many good people who do ).
    Discovering Catholicism was not what I expected in many churches, I’m became an asylum seeker and attend Mass where these practices are not prevalent. (Editor you will be saying shortly I should be asylum seeking in the SSPX)
    Anyway, the number of Masses which incorporate Protestant traditions is substantial and the Mass goers seem to love the whole revivalist tone. I think to myself ” You dear people would be more at home in the Evangelical Protestant Church.”
    So how is it that I, with much angst, left a tradition, only to find that the Pope himself is crossing over to that same Protestant tradition! I couldn’t make this up! Could you?

    August 19, 2015 at 8:48 am
    • Christina

      I feel for you, Spero. It was the inevitable result and intention of the Bugnini Novus Ordo Missae.

      August 19, 2015 at 11:27 am
  • leprechaun

    Madame Editor,

    Anyone who has attended a “Faith of Our Fathers” Conference in London and sung the hymn of the same name along with the indomitable Daphne Mcleod will surely agree with you on the value of good Catholic hymns.

    August 19, 2015 at 8:59 am
    • Margaret Mary


      Our parish where I grew up often sang Faith of our Fathers at the end of Mass. If there wasn’t another hymn to fit in with the Mass of the day, we sang that!

      I’m surprised at the comments here from people who didn’t have hymns before V2. It’s one of my cherished memories, and it’s where I learned most of my doctrine since I tended to daydream during the sermons!

      August 19, 2015 at 2:52 pm
      • LindainPA

        I honestly did not realize ‘Faith of our Fathers’ was a Catholic hymn. I grew up with it in a Lutheran Church. Local Moravian churches also sang it. I played in a Methodist church for a while. It was popular there, too.

        Is it not possible that some hymns could/should be classified as ‘Christian’, rather than relegating them to being either ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’?

        August 20, 2015 at 3:15 pm
      • Vianney

        Faith of our Fathers is not only a catholic hymn but was written by a priest, the great Fr. Faber, who wrote many Catholic hymns. It is true that, in America at least, it is in the hymnals of many Protestant denominations. There they sing it to tune that we use for “O Bread of Heaven” whereas on this side of the water it is sung to a far more rousing tune.

        August 21, 2015 at 9:56 pm
  • morgana

    I suppose it may have been down to the school you attended because although at my primary we did have the modern hymns it was here that I learned all the traditional hymns also.

    August 19, 2015 at 10:56 am
  • Benedict Carter

    You lot think “Shine Jesus Shine” (which I am glad to say I have never heard, only because for the last twenty years I’ve been living in various hell-holes around the world) is bad?

    In any Mass involving large number of Africans, the Gloria, Credo, Kyrie and Sanctus change each and every week, accompanied by bongo drums and that horrible sound when the women cover their mouths and come out with a high-pitched squealing noise. Think of Peter O’Toole in “Lawrence of Arabia” setting out with Omar Sharif to conquer Aqaba and on the high crags above them the women start that awful racket. That’s what you get in African Nervous Ordure Messes.

    The texts of these ancient prayers as I said change every week, along with the tunes (can’t call it music) and who knows if any Bishop has bothered to check the “lyrics” for heresy?

    Maybe you have come across the type of thing …

    God the Father (oweeeeshh, oweeeeshh or other similar African noise)
    God de Son (ditto noises)
    De Spirit ….

    And on and on. It’s utterly hideous. This is the replacement of an ages-old Roman culture, our Catholic culture, with the Jesuits’ “inculturation” — which, frankly, is totally manufactured and no culture at all of course.

    I hate and despise nu-Church with every fibre of my being.

    August 19, 2015 at 11:24 am
    • Christina

      Benedict Carter, you did make me laugh! Sometimes it’s either that or scream.

      Only last Sunday an organist friend rang me reeling from an experience he’d just had. He had been asked as a favour to play the organ for a Mass somewhere in Manchester and was surprised to find the priest and people were all African. He’s fairly laid back about strange sounds, such as you so hilariously describe, as he plays for Filipino Masses in Oldham, but what he couldn’t get over was the ‘sign of peace’ when all hell was let loose with priest and people cavorting in the aisles – and that was the end of any pretence of worship right through to the end. I worry when I hear it said that the Church is flourishing in the Third World. What kind of Church?

      August 19, 2015 at 11:46 am
    • Muffin Man Returns

      When I was an adolescent, this stuff would have put me right off religion. It just doesn’t appeal to my tastes. I find it awkward. I am certain this is the same for a lot of people. It is a barrier to conversions.

      August 19, 2015 at 2:12 pm
  • Faith of Our Fathers

    As far as I can see it’s surely just not the words but the depth of faith and belief within the words . As we all live now in the politically correct P C world it’s a wonder actually that it’s not a crime to sing hymns-give it time though ,give it time-am sure The Homosexual Brigade will have us singing their Hymns . I think I said on here before that the May hymn The Sun is Shining Brightly those words at the end of the hymn have already been changed . It used to be “for it is the month of Mary and all the World is Gay”that’s of course now been changed to “for it is the month of Mary and half the World is Gay” . On a more historical theme I can remember standing on the slopes of Paradise -not heaven – and singing Faith of Our Fathers anyone going to the game tonight and singing said hymn would not only be arrested but would most probably spend the next month in the nearest Caper House . On summing up at the end of the day we,r all sinners and anything that brings us closer to God is surely a good thing -after all it’s plain to anyone with half a brain that we,r in the end times- . Anyone near or far who hasn’t visited Carfin Grotto please do so your in for a treat . God Bless .

    August 19, 2015 at 6:33 pm
  • editor

    Cilla Black’s having Amazing Grace sung at her funeral today – programme here

    August 20, 2015 at 9:13 am
  • morgana

    There’s not one Catholic hymn on that order of service and one of her own songs at holy communion quite outrageous

    August 20, 2015 at 9:45 am
    • Eileenanne

      It’s horrific, and the worst thing is that it makes some ordinary Catholics think that’s how to conduct a funeral, and God help any priest who tries to stick to a correct funeral liturgy. It is exactly like an Eastenders funeral, with the participation of a few more boastfully practising homosexuals than are usually found in Albert Square – unless it has changed since I stopped watching.
      I’m away to write my protest to the bishop. Hope others will too.

      August 20, 2015 at 9:54 am
      • Athanasius


        Don’t waste your time writing to “Bishop Tom,” he no longer has the Catholic Faith. As for those priests you refer to who would get stick for trying to conduct a proper Catholic funeral, they are fairly thin on the ground, if they exist at all. I have been to numerous Novus Ordo funerals, or rather “celebrations of the lives of,” not one of which remotely resembled a Traditional requiem Mass.

        And so it will contuinue until the Catholic faithful rid themselves of their false fear of disobedience (what a joke), stop attending the Novus Ordo and get back to practicing the Faith of our Fathers. This is the only strong message to send out to our wayward Pope, bishops and priests. Vote with the feet, find a Traditional Mass.

        August 20, 2015 at 10:35 am
      • editor


        I don’t think it’s a waste of time to write to the Bishop any more than it was a waste time for us to write to the priests in St Mungo’s recently for their nasty attack on the TLM. It’s precisely because they never receive any complaints that these bishops think they’re going a great job. And, of course, the spiritual gains from the effort involved, mean, waste of time or not, it’s not a waste of grace, if you get my drift! That doesn’t negate the advice in your final paragraph – that’s a given. But we must do both. Speak out, be the prophetic voice in our own little corner, and vote with our feet.

        I’m going to email him, briefly. Short, and anything but sweet.


        Sister Mary of the Ever-Burning Lamp…

        August 20, 2015 at 10:48 am
      • editor

        “God help any priest who tries to stick to a correct funeral liturgy.”

        Too true. When the Bishops of Ireland tried to put an end to this sort of thing at funerals and weddings, they met with outright rebellion. The people just won’t accept the rules. It is, as you say, horrific.

        August 20, 2015 at 10:44 am
  • leprechaun

    Madame Editor,

    From my Baptist/Methodist infancy I remember hymns like Jesus wants me for a sunbeam and You in your small corner, and me in mine.

    From my 40 years in the Novus Ordo wilderness I encountered many renditions of Sideways Christian Soldiers and Khumbyah and many imports from the Taize Community.

    Since returning to Tradition I relish Bring Flowers of the rarest and all those wonderful hymns to the Blessed Virgin Mary too numerous to mention.

    As for the ditties rolled out at marriages and funerals these days, I can but paraphrase: “As ye sing so shall ye believe” – does the adjective “shallowness” come to mind?

    August 20, 2015 at 10:04 am
    • editor


      Yes, “shallowness” does come to mind, when considering most, if not all, of the contemporary hymns. Like you, I love Brings Flowers of the rarest and the other beautiful hymns to Our Lady. They really do reach the parts (of the soul) that the contemporary songs sung in churches do not reach…

      August 20, 2015 at 10:39 am
  • LindainPA

    As a convert, I am not as disturbed by this as others seem to be. It was an ecumenical event. I, personally, like this hymn and the story behind it.

    As a church musician, I would not play this at a Sunday Mass, though it is often requested at funerals and is in our missalette. People leading the music are to encourage participation by those attending. At an ecumenical event, it seems only fitting to choose hymns that are known by both Catholics and Protestants. I probably would have chosen something like ‘How Great Thou Art’, or “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling’.

    There are other hymns in our missalette that are not theologically sound as well. I refuse to sing them. ‘Look Beyond’ includes the line “Moses brought us manna from the sky” and was suggested on Aug. 2 when the Gospel reads, “It was NOT Moses who gave the bread from Heaven…”

    I emailed this concern to OCP…

    “As it is written, I would not choose to sing ‘There is Nothing Told’ because of the word “engaged” in the first verse. Mary and Joseph were betrothed. According to scripture and Jewish custom, they were married, although they lived apart. Why not just use the word “betrothed?” It is theologically correct and works musically.”

    This was the response…


    I am more disturbed when I find ‘Catholic’ hymns where the theology seems flawed.

    Using hymns that are considered strictly Catholic, that may have been unfamiliar to many gathered at this ecumenical event, would have appeared to be deliberately exclusive. There are good Christian hymns that are familiar to most. And, we are indeed saved by God’s grace. I don’t believe this hymn was intended as a response to the debate on faith and works. Had they chosen the hymn ‘Grace Alone’, you certainly would have a point.

    August 20, 2015 at 12:51 pm
    • editor


      I’m glad you corrected that terribly common error about Our Lady and St Joseph being “engaged” when they were technically married – well done for that.

      However, prayers (and hymns are prayers put to music) are for the purpose of addressing and worshipping God. It really is too bad if anybody else feels “excluded”. Choosing prayers and hymns to suit Protestants, means that we are essentially sayjing to God, “Listen, I’m going to talk to you in a most inappropriate way, I’m going to worship you by spouting heresy and even blasphemy, because that beats making our Protestant friends feel “excluded”. Hope you understand, Lord, but if not, too bad.”

      C’mon. We need to get things the right way round. The ecumenical movement is diabolical and thus things are ALWAYS the wrong way round when we take that manner of confused and wrong thinking, as our starting point. We start from the point where we choose prayers and hymns that will please God. Everything else gets tossed. Those who feel excluded only need to approach for instruction!

      August 20, 2015 at 3:27 pm
  • LindainPA

    For some reason, the OCP response didn’t print…

    “This text is a translation (from French) done by the noted Australian Jesuit theology professor and composer, Father Christopher Willcock.”

    Incorrect is still incorrect.

    August 20, 2015 at 12:56 pm
  • morgana

    If your choosing a catholic church for a funeral them common sense surely dictates that you will expect to hear catholic hymns appropriate for the occasion irrespective of whether the congregation is mixed.I wouldn’t expect to go into a protestant church and hear catholic hymns despite myself being in the minority and whats more I don’t think they would make any allowance .

    August 20, 2015 at 1:28 pm
    • LindainPA

      Our priest allows music that comes from our missalette – that can be posted. ‘Amazing Grace’ is there. I have noticed that the wording has been changed in some of the hymns that have been deemed ‘Protestant’ (that I grew up with) when they are included in the missalette.

      I find NO justification for using the Beatles’ ‘Long and Winding Road’!!!

      August 20, 2015 at 3:29 pm
      • cbucket

        They should have played another of Cilla hits. “Surprise, Surprise” (when the reality of eternity hits you between the eyes).

        August 20, 2015 at 4:47 pm
      • Margaret Mary


        LOL! That’s absolutely hilarious! God forgive me, I laughed heartily at that! I should say, in charity, that I hope it’s not the case but the idea of it really made me laugh heartily.

        God rest her soul, may she rest in peace.

        August 20, 2015 at 9:12 pm
      • Margaret Mary


        I completely agree about “Long and Winding Road” – I couldn’t believe that they finished the Mass with that and the bishop saying it was most appropriate. The only Catholic way to interpret that is that she’s going to spend a long time in Purgatory, because she’s not had a long life – 72 is not long these days.

        August 20, 2015 at 9:15 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    I must confess that I was totally ignorant of the nature of this Protestant hymn, and after watching Fr. John Hardon’s commentary (see here- it is now clear that this hymn is by and large Calvinist theology in a nutshell, especially regarding one of the five points of Calvinism, Irresistible Grace, which denies that humans have no free will as a consequence of Calvin’s extreme interpretation of Original Sin, Total Depravity. Irresistible Grace says that we are born as complete slaves to sin and unless God chooses to bestow His Irresistible Grace upon us we cannot choose to follow God, refrain from Evil and achieve Salvation. I believe this is Monergism.

    However, Catholicism teaches that we have free will and we can, and indeed must, co-operate with God’s grace, whether it be Actual, Sanctifying and Sacramental, but needless to say, we still have the freedom to reject it.

    To me, Calvinism nearly goes to the length of denying the soul, or at least an integral part of that, because the soul is like God in the sense that it is a spirit and will never die, has understand and free will, as said in the Baltimore Catechism. Calvinism reduces us to the state of animals, and denies we have understanding, i.e. the ability to regulate our actions, by responding to the graces which God gives us.

    This hymn also denies that saving grace is found in the sacraments, and denies the efficacy of good works in the economy of salvation, as taught by St. James and by Christ our Saviour in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

    I never gave any though to this hymn, but now I know I’ll say silent if this hymn is sung in Mass.

    August 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    Oops, sorry I forgot to answer the question. Why would Pope Francis permit Protestant heresy to be sung? Er…because he’s a Protestant…with bells on!! I think I’m nearly right. Oh yes, that’s it- he’s not only a Protestant, he’s a liberal Protestant, one that would not look out of place in the Church of England.

    The world is so diabolically disoriented that we may soon witness Lutherans belting out Pange Lingua, or Free Presbyterians warbling to ‘Full in the Panting Heart of Rome’.

    Amazing Grace, as performed above, and those nu-Catholics with their Pentecostal-style outstretched arms, is a physical embodiment of the Novus Ordo Church, with traditional Priests and Bishops (+Burke, +Cordileone et al) existing, along with the TLM, as a mere footnote. I tell you, if I was converting on liturgy alone, I would have joined the Orthodox, no doubt about it. It was ‘everything else’ and not the liturgy that brought be to Rome.

    August 20, 2015 at 2:00 pm
  • editor

    Below, you can view the Requiem Mass for Cilla Black – I’ve just watched it live and, from the state of the art vestments to the jokes to the closing song, I just kept thanking God that my own beloved mother had the real thing – a traditional Latin Requiem Mass, complete with black vestments*, altar boys, the lot, in a silent church, with all the prayers offered for her soul and salvation. Not a pop song or joke within earshot. (*It was interesting to see how the majority of those attending wore dark clothes, the men in black ties. Seems even the lapsed and the unbelievers have more sense of funeral occasion that the priests and bishop.)

    But THAT debacle? I just could not stand it. Yet the celebrities interviewed outside thought it “beautiful” – a fun day all round.

    Poor Cilla. May she rest in peace…

    August 20, 2015 at 3:18 pm
    • Eileenanne

      I haven’t watched it all, but enough for me to see that it was even worse than the Order of Service led me to expect.
      Truly awful.

      August 20, 2015 at 10:12 pm
  • crofterlady August 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm
  • Athanasius

    God forbid that my remains ever end up at the mercy of circus clergy like that. What a disgraceful spectacle for a Catholic funeral, absolutely no solemnity or reverence whatsoever. This ‘celebration of life’ nonsense that has usurped the Catholic Requiem Mass is just pure emotional humanism. Dear God, how much longer will we have to put up with this mockery of our holy religion?

    May Our Lord have mercy on the soul of Cilla Black.

    August 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm
    • editor

      Well said, Athanasius. In the proverbial nutshell. Well said.

      August 20, 2015 at 11:30 pm
  • morgana

    What makes the mockery worse in my opinion was the fact nearly all the clergy were older men who most certainly know better.

    August 21, 2015 at 12:09 am
    • Athanasius


      Yes, it is the older generation Catholics who are the worst. At least the young don’t know any better

      August 21, 2015 at 12:44 am
  • editor

    Here’s a very good summary of why we’re seeing scandals like this Vatican event – with the decline of the Mass, the rise of Satan and evil… Listen closely…


    August 21, 2015 at 11:06 am
    • Fidelis

      I listened closely – really clear explanation of the link between the attacks on the Mass and the rise of evil. Terrifying stuff, really.. The Highway to Hell song at the start really says it all – and as for the celebs wearing horns in the audience – unbelievable. I wonder how long it will be till that song is played at a Catholic funeral?

      August 21, 2015 at 12:42 pm
  • Pat McKay

    I wonder how many non-Catholics went up to receive Holy Communion at Cilla Black’s funeral Mass. Did anybody hear the Celebrant announce that this is forbidden?

    August 21, 2015 at 12:59 pm
    • editor

      The bishop did say that those who had the faith could receive Communion (words to that effect – “forbidden” isn’t a word any modern priest is likely to use) and that others could come up for a blessing. Some did go up for a blessing but in the absence of close-ups at that time, I couldn’t tell who was who, in that Who’s Who congregation!

      When you watch that debacle, however, Pat, and then watch the Michael Matt video with his explanation and visual clips of the TLM, does it make you want to weep – or what?

      August 21, 2015 at 1:56 pm
    • Margaret Mary

      Christopher Biggins, who is in a civil partnership with Neil Sinclair, received Holy Communion from the bishop and was given a pat on the arm by the bishop right after. That’s the only one I saw.

      August 26, 2015 at 11:14 am
  • morgana

    Surely a better choice of words would have been only those in a state of grace approach for Holy Communion but then again with the modernists it always comes back to not offending anybody – frankly who cares.

    August 21, 2015 at 11:54 pm
  • Pat McKay

    At my dear mother’s (+ R.I.P.) funeral Mass in 2007, I knew some of her non-Catholic neighbours would be there – also that they might go up to receive Holy Communion if nobody told them they shouldn’t. I made a point of seeing the priest before Mass and asking him to ‘intimate’ this from the pulpit. Although he nodded his head, purportedly in agreement, he never actually mentioned it! To this day, I don’t know whether any non-Catholics did receive Holy Communion on that occasion.

    But, as Morgana says, who cares? And as I’ve said before, at the forthcoming sin-nod all sorts of ‘out-dated, traditional taboos’ will probably be overturned, including this one. To deny Holy Communion to non-Catholics will be dismissed as ‘divisive’ and ‘non-pastoral’.

    August 22, 2015 at 12:47 pm
    • Fidelis

      Pat McKay

      If you watch the John Vennari video on the new thread “Voris Fighting the Wrong Battle” as I’ve just done, you will come to the conclusion I came to a while ago, that there’s no point attending the novus ordo – if possible, we should all vote with our feet and go to the old Mass. That priest nodding his head but not actually making any acknowledgment of what you’d said, is so insulting. It’s so lacking in respect. I’d definitely shake off the dust.

      August 22, 2015 at 3:13 pm
      • Pat McKay

        Surely priests must be aware that Nuptial Masses and funeral Masses are likely to be attended by some non-Catholics, as well as lapsed Catholics.

        They ought to make a point of intimating what the rules are on EVERY such occasion, without having to be asked. A former non-Catholic boss of mine once chatted away about how he….’took Communion at a Roman Catholic Service’….. His face fell when I told him he ‘shouldn’t do that’, he was completely unaware he was in error and wanted to know ‘why ever not?’.

        Incidentally, back in the 70s, the parish priest at this same church where my mother’s funeral Mass was held gave his sermon one time about non-Catholics who attended Mass there. He went on about how people of other denominations (and none) were ‘most welcome’ to come to Mass and that he ‘hoped they felt at home’ in his church…. His manner was almost apologetic however, when he said…’I have to point out that although you are welcome to come along here, you CANNOT receive Holy Communion’….The vibes I got from his tone were….’we wish it weren’t so, but we’re afraid that’s how it is’….and….’maybe things will change in the future’…

        Things did indeed change! Ever since ‘Communion in the hand’ became common practice, abuses of the Sacred Host have been legion.

        August 22, 2015 at 5:54 pm
  • catholicconvert1

    I do like some Protestant hymns, however, such as ‘Nearer My God To Thee’, ‘Immortal, Invisible’, ‘Abide With Me’ and ‘When I survey The Wondrous Cross’, which were written by a Unitarian, a Free Presbyterian, an Anglican and a Congregationalist, respectively. I was in York a couple of weeks ago with my parents, and when we were sat in the park next to the Minster, ‘Immortal, Invisible’ was played on the Minster bells, which was quite moving.

    August 24, 2015 at 8:03 pm
    • Helen

      CC, do you know that there is a weekly Sunday TLM at St. Wilfrid’s Parish Church right next to the Minster? It’s offered by the Oratorian Fathers who now run the parish.

      August 25, 2015 at 10:58 am
      • catholicconvert1

        Yes, I am aware of that, but I cannot afford it as I have just left University and presently unemployed. £19 is a lot to spend every week on train tickets! Money which I do not have for the time being. I did attend a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated by a visiting Franciscan Friar of the Renewal, which was three weeks ago on Wednesday.

        August 25, 2015 at 1:45 pm

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