EU: How Should UK Catholics Vote?
ON June 23, Catholics in England and Wales will be confronted by the same question as everyone else: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
We are given only two possible answers – “Remain” or “Leave”. The Church is not officially taking sides and therefore we are free to choose.
But that word “officially” is crucial. Both Cardinal Vincent Nichols and Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor have endorsed a vote to Remain. These are their personal convictions, they have stressed.
They have not, however, kept these personal views private – unlike the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, who probably also supports staying in the EU but who has not jeopardised his authority by saying so.
Anglicans and Catholics therefore find themselves in different situations. The former will arrive at the polling booth unencumbered by advice from their spiritual leader. The latter, in contrast, are being nudged towards a “Remain” vote not only by Their Eminences but also by the Pope.
Last Friday, Pope Francis received the Charlemagne Prize for services to European integration. The prize is awarded by the city of Aachen in the Rhineland, which Charlemagne chose as his capital and which, under the name of Aix-la-Chappelle, was for centuries a direct vassal of the Holy Roman Empire.
Last week it could have been mistaken for a direct vassal of the European Union. The awards ceremony, held in the Vatican, was addressed by Martin Schulz, president of the European Parliament, Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, and Donald Tusk, president of the European Council.
They must have been pleased to hear Francis identify Brussels with “the soul of Europe”. On immigration, the Pope brushed aside the fears of Eurosceptics and even the anxieties of pro-EU national politicians. Tighter border controls were a manifestation of “meanness”, serving “our own selfish interests”. It’s not hard to work out where the Holy Father’s sympathies lie in the British referendum. The Vatican’s “foreign minister”, the Liverpool-born Archbishop Paul Gallagher, has said bluntly: “Better in than out.”
Catholic Eurosceptics are not pleased by this collective nudging. And the fact that it is unofficial does nothing to placate them.
Why, they ask, did Cardinal Nichols insist that leaving the European Union “would create more complex problems” than staying in when his own Bishops’ Conference did not encourage a vote in either direction? Why has his predecessor twice come out of retirement to support the EU, first in an interview with an Italian Catholic news agency and just last week in the Spectator?
There is no single answer. Rather, a number of strands of thinking have produced a mindset every bit as inflexible as that of the Guardian’s favourite stereotype, the blazer-clad Kipper spouting rancid xenophobia in a saloon bar.
The most intellectually respectable of these strands leads back to the European Coal and Steel Community, formed after the Second World War by Robert Schuman, Jean Monnet, Konrad Adenauer and Alcide De Gasperi. Of these, only Monnet – the French political economist who became the community’s first president – was not a conspicuously devout Catholic. (His private life was complicated: he was married to a woman who left her husband for him and had to travel to Moscow to obtain a divorce; the Monnets could not have a Catholic wedding until the first husband was dead, by which time Jean was 85. The ceremony took place in the basilica at Lourdes.)
Schuman, twice prime minister of France, and De Gasperi, eight times prime minister of Italy and founder of the Christian Democrats, were men of such personal holiness that there have been calls to canonise them. Adenauer, the scheming first Chancellor of West Germany, is not a candidate for sainthood – but he was a trenchantly Catholic statesman during a political career lasting 60 years.
For Schuman, Adenauer and De Gasperi, the European Economic Community was fundamentally a Catholic project with roots that – in their imaginations, at least – could be traced back to Charlemagne.
Protestant Britons smelled a rat. They portrayed the new alliance as an attempt to re-establish the Holy Roman Empire. There was a grain of truth in this charge – though this “imperial” realm was little more than a patchwork of quarrelsome German principalities. To quote Voltaire, it was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.
Likewise, there was always an element of fantasy in the goal of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe”, first set out in the 1957 Treaty of Rome. But the Catholic inspiration for the EEC, left unstated in treaties, was anything but frivolous.
In 2008 the Catholic historian Alan Fimister published a book arguing that Schuman’s plans for Europe were “to a remarkable degree, the conscious implementation of the Neo-Thomistic project of Pope Leo XIII”.
Schuman, De Gasperi and Adenauer all believed that the answer to totalitarian ideologies lay in Leo’s vision of the restoration of “the principles of the Christian life in civil and domestic society”.
But Schuman went further: he subscribed to the Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain’s notion of supranational democracy as the foundation for a new Christendom. “He held fast to the magisterium’s demand that the final destination of Catholic political action must be the recognition by the civil order of the truth of the Faith,” writes Fimister.
And how was this to be achieved? By the voluntary submission of non-Catholic Europeans to the spiritual authority of Rome.
Pope Francis invoked Schuman when he received his Charlemagne speech. But one wonders whether he and other champions of European union fully understand the uncompromising nature of Schuman’s commitment to Catholic civil order.
There is certainly little trace of it in Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor’s Spectator article, which sets out a less ambitious vision of Catholic Europe.
The cardinal wants the EU to stay open to “the transcendent dimension of life” and its own “humanistic spirit”. He does not, however, define transcendence or humanism, concepts that had an exclusively Catholic meaning for Schuman. This lack of clarity is made worse by the platitudinous assertion that “all authentic unity draws from the rich diversities which make it up”.
Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor is more convincing when he writes that he feels “close to Europe because I lived for many years in Italy and, as a bishop, I have been in touch with fellow bishops from all the European continent on a regular basis”.
The genial cardinal is popular in the Vatican; more than any other English cleric, he embodies Romanitas, the Roman way of doing things. If you want an audience with the Pope, or a recommendation for a trattoria in the Borgo Pio, ask the retired Archbishop of Westminster. His affection for the EU is an extension of this Romanitas.
Cardinal Nichols is also fervently pro-EU, but his support for it has a less Roman flavour. He is, as I remember from his days as general secretary of the Bishops’ Conference, a man who works through committees and relishes bureaucratic procedure.
His politics bear the stamp of his Liverpudlian upbringing. He favours public expenditure over private enterprise; his speeches employ the vocabulary of the state sector. It’s hard to think of a bishop less in sympathy with Eton-educated Catholic Tory Brexiteers such as Charles Moore and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
The Nichols philosophy embraces the dirigism of Brussels; in this he is typical of the moderate British Left, which changed its mind about the Common Market after Jacques Delors persuaded it that Europe was an indispensable ally against “free-market fundamentalism”.
One suspects that Cardinal Nichols would admire the modus operandi of the European Union even if it had no association with the Church. The same could be said of many bishops of England and Wales.
But not, perhaps, all of them. The failure of the Bishops’ Conference to recommend a “Remain” vote is a mystery. Until recently its stance was ultra-Europhile. Did one or two bishops refuse to back such a recommendation because they are sympathetic to the arguments for leaving?
It’s a possibility. Interestingly, some of Cardinal Nichols’s own clergy in Westminster are pro-Brexit. They include one well-known priest who believes that Brussels – which has just granted visa-free visiting rights to 75 million Turks, preparing the ground for Turkish membership of the EU – is dismantling what remains of Christendom.
Might Robert Schuman have shared this priest’s view that the 21st-century European Union is more an enemy of the Church than its friend? Unsurprisingly, no one considered this possibility on Monday, which was marked across the EU as “Schuman Day”.
But there are clues in an interview Alan Fimister, now a professor of theology and Church history at St John Vianney Seminary in Denver, gave to mark the publication of his book. Schuman “would have been appalled by the culture of death” embraced by pro-abortion European politicians and officials, he said. The “creeping dictatorship of relativism” emanating from Brussels is a corruption of his vision.
Obviously we don’t know whether Schuman would have disowned a swollen, secularised EU in its current form. But Fimister believes that those European Catholics who share the founder’s views have done just that.
As he told the Catholic Herald in March, “orthodox Catholics across the EU … are overwhelmingly negative about the European Union, and not just for reactionary reasons. They’re negative because they just see it as part of the general secularising trend.”
Cardinals Nichols and Murphy-O’Connor would no doubt challenge Fimister’s use of the word “orthodox”: they might say he is referring to a particular brand of conservative Catholic.
But, even if we are talking only about theological conservatives, Fimister’s point surely holds. The ranks of prominent Brexit supporters contain a surprising number of practising Catholics for whom the contemporary EU is an obstacle to the revival of Europe’s Catholic identity. These views are ignored by the Church hierarchy, from the Holy Father downwards. So, for that matter, are the opinions of less polemical Catholic voters who see the referendum question as essentially political and want to quit the EU for reasons that have little to do with their faith.
Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor and – more sotto voce – Cardinal Nichols think the decision does have religious implications. Both men associate our EU membership with “welcoming migrants”, though neither seems prepared to debate the effects on society of uncontrollably shifting demography.
Some Catholics feel the English cardinals’ personal interventions are inappropriate. There has been no great fuss, however, because they are unlikely to affect the outcome of the referendum.
In the end, their arguments are not persuasive. This is partly because they are only half formed and partly because they do not really harmonise: Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor’s post-conciliar Romanitas and Cardinal Nichols’s 1980s-style defence of the bureaucratic status quo reflect their different ages and backgrounds.
That would not be a problem for them if Catholic enthusiasm for Brussels still had its traditional taken-for-granted quality. But today Schuman’s utopian project seems outmoded, almost quaint, in an age when globalisation is pulling apart every stitch of the social fabric once known as Christendom.
One result of these changes is that, to put it bluntly, the opinions of Catholic clergy carry no weight with the public. And another is that, despite the award of the Charlemagne Prize to the successor of Peter, the strands of thinking that once attached Catholic Europe to the European Union are unravelling. Whichever way we vote, they will continue to do so after June 23. Source
Comment:
Should the Catholic hierarchy in any part of the UK try to influence Catholics to vote one way or another in the EU referendum? Is there a “Catholic” way to vote” – a “right or wrong” way to vote? Or are we free to make up our own minds?
Comments (95)
Editor
I have been sent a 12 page pamphlet called ‘The Biblical Case for Brexit’. It is not from a Catholic source (I think it was written by a Methodist) but it does make some fair points. It is available to buy here for £1.20 as a Kindle download, if anyone is interested https://www.amazon.co.uk/BIBLICAL-CASE-BREXIT-Christian-foundations-ebook/dp/B01EIJYQK8
Is the twelve stars on the EU flag not the Intellectual Property of the Catholic Church?
Frankier
Yes, my understanding is that the man who designed the EU flag had a devotion to Our Lady and so borrowed the twelve stars from Biblical references to the Blessed Virgin’s crown. If true, he sure got one over on the dark forces behind that despotic Union.
This reminds me of the introduction to Fr. Malachi Martin’s Windswept House, in which he has Pius XII warning about the Church becoming ensnared in the tentacles of “Ostpolitik.” And he was right, since, after him, the Papacy and the Church have been largely surrendered to the Freemasonic UN.
That said, it remains for Abp. Paul Gallagher to demonstrate, if Brexit would “weaken” Europe, how the EU has in fact “strengthened” Europe. That would certainly be a major task for a professional spin-meister, since the EU has in fact destroyed Europe quite comprehensively.
Moreover, if the prelates of the modern Church had an ounce of Ostpolitik-free faith left in them, they would urge their flock to vote to leave, since the EU is just a bureaucratic variety of Communism – the very same Communism defined by Pius XI as “intrinsically perverse.”
But they have all surrendered to said perversity, it would appear – including the perversity of the present occupant of the Chair of Peter.
I think that you are right RCA Victor; you should be free to make up your own minds with no unsuitable exterior interferences.
This is a political and personal issue exclusively.
Actually, Lionel, given the diabolical nature of the EU, I think it is a very Catholic issue, since the EU intends to suppress and, if possible, to abolish every trace of our Faith.
I agree with you entirely, RCA Victor.
However as a foreigner I am not authorized to give voting instructions.
It is clear that this Europe, Tower of Babel, is completely atheistic and in this regard it concerns religious matters… and for this reason the bishops should oppose it.
Here is Christopher Ferrara’s commentary on the Pope receiving the Charlemagne prize: http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/fe/perspective857.asp
The referendum decision will be complicated enough for those with no religious beliefs. The religious arguments bearing on the vote are even more tangled.
For what it’s worth, here are one or two:
Although the Church doesn’t recommend any particular political system, it does believe that those with power should be readily answerable to those without power. As the number of countries in the EU has grown, this has become increasingly difficult.
The backward-looking paternalism of the EU’s Catholic founders, is an example of the well-intentioned but foolish “Nanny knows best” attitude that has so damaged the Church over the centuries. Outside theological matters, it is of course absurd; and tends to make Catholics good citizens only of some imaginary Ruritania where ordinary people can be treated as children.
Tony,
No, you are right, “the Church doesn’t recommend any particular political system” but Catholic Social Teaching centres on the belief that Christ must be the Head of every nation under heaven.
Makes it very difficult for conscientious Catholic voters on polling day.
Tony Buck
“The backward-looking paternalism of the EU’s Catholic founders….”
With respect, where do you get this stuff from? What Catholic founders of the EU are you speaking of? Can you name them please?
I am not aware of the EU having been formed by Catholics, certainly not practicing ones.
Who cares? Anything Cardinal Nichols and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor are in favour of, I will automatically vote the opposite. Same goes for Archbishop Philip Tartaglia.
I would do it either.
Quite right, Sarto! It doesn’t matter what those two gentlemen are for – but (in the words of Groucho Marx) – “whatever it is, I’m against it”!
Rusticus
I think in Sarto’s case previous experience with the above named prelates does somewhat justify his assertion. Groucho’s comedy satire shouldn’t be confused with Sarto’s common sense, even if his one-liners are classics.
My favourite is “I wouldn’t join any club that would have me for a member”.
WF,
If you hang on, there is a Fatima thread going up at midnight, so I’ll remove these comments once you’ve re-posted there. Hold all responses, folks, please and thank you.
Sarto2010
These Churchmen have sold out the Sovereignty of Christ the King in favour of the ecumenical Tower of Babel, so advising a nation to sell it’s sovereignty in the interests of extending the Babel project into secular life is easy for these revolutionary Modernists.
I feel very strongly regarding The E U …[Evil Union]…..and the way its edicts affect our way of life and encroaches more and more ….the vast majority of people I speak to locally want out ..for most the spotlight is on economics /financial gain /trading etc ..but mine is on the Moral .side ..Abortion ,Sterilization ,Morning after pills now ingested like sweeties ,Euthanasia ,Prostitution,The proverbial Reproductive wrongs ,immoral pornographic sex ed ,So called contraception..schoolgirls having long acting implants inserted ,LGBT wrongs and the rising surge of Transgender……now 4 y r olds are being asked what gender they are in Brighton !!!!!! all of this is encouraged by the E U often funded …I feel with this vote we must consider our Childrens /Grandchildrens future dare you think in 30 yrs time what things will be like one hardly dares to imagine it ?…..I do think a No Vote will help keep this particular dragon from the door and protect our next generations and their future .I feel to stay in is akin to jumping over the precipice without a parachute …of course The E U does not seem to like Religion either so hey ho here we go …..If you would like more information on The Leave Campaign their contact details are ..tel ..0207 952 5454…E Mail info@voteleave.uk…voteleavetakecontrol.org/getinvolved …thank you
Wendy,
I agree with you and I will be voting to leave, definitely. However, I think the damage has been done in terms of morality and I can’t see the UK changing its [rainbow] colours now – I think we will continue to be a decadent society whether in or out of the EU. Still, a spoke in the wheel might help a little.
I will also be voting to leave. It’s an idiotic union based on the evil principles of the French Revolution!
Wendy Walker,
I couldn’t agree more. The EU is a very evil organisation. I can’t believe anyone would want to vote remain. If it’s for money reasons, they are no better than Judas Iscariot, then.
That’s all they think about, money and jobs. Some say that we wouldn’t have the human rights we have, such as equal pay etc. with the EU, but I think that wouldn’t be the case now. I’m voting out, for sure. For one thing, the politicians here use the EU to makes excuses when it suits them, they can’t do this or have to do that because of EU rules, so all in all, we’re better out IMHO.
http://www.citizengo.org/en/lf/34570-bbc-womans-hour-holds-biased-discussion-platforms-illegal-unsafe-abortion-activism?dr=64694::46c740054d5364aef54781cc630ad5
Sorry this is deviating away from the theme but forgive me this very important Petition came to me today please sign and share with all like minded people ..Aslo PLEASE PRAY for The wonderful March For Life taking place today in Birmingham …and all the participants ….thank you
Signed. Thanks Wendy.
Signed, Wendy.
Signed. Wendy
Wendy,
Thank you for that – I’ve signed.
And I, too, am posting a link here which is not directly related to the EU debate but I think the rise of this transgender craziness has some relation to the EU liberal approach to morality. This is a telling quote from towards the end of the article: “We must vehemently oppose it, but have compassion for the people trapped in the modern sexual liberation movement. They are indeed victims, but of indoctrination, not discrimination.” Absolutely.
In any case, at only 20-odd comments, this topic is not exactly setting the heather on fire, is it!
Dear All,
Editor’s request – to give you the ‘heads-up’ about recent letters in the Bedfordshire Times & Citizen.
This all began with a letter in the 28/04 edition. A ‘Mr George’ had a moan about how things are going ‘down the pan’ in our society, basically because ‘we said ‘no’ to God’ (surprise!). I couldn’t resist a response, which was published in last week’s edition:-
Dear Madam
I agree with you, Mr George (Readers’ Views, 28/04/2016).
We were given righteous laws and were commanded to obey them in the interests of the common good. When we ignore or defy those laws, we invite the kind of disorder, chaos and misery we currently find ourselves immersed in.
Once the First Commandment has been thrown out, the remainder soon follow. The 1950s may have been austere times, but in those days there was Faith around, people knew right from wrong, we had some semblance of peace, law and order. We are assured we are now living in ‘enlightened times’. However, it would be interesting to compare 1950s statistics for violence and crime, suicides, drug and alcohol-related deaths, broken homes, disfunctional families, child abuse etc. with those of the present day.
The lunatics are in charge of the asylum, thanks to all the ‘social engineering’ that’s been foisted upon us for the past half-century.
Sincerely,
Patrick McKay (end).
I had an idea the bullets would be flying as a consequence in this week’s (sure enough) so pre-empted it with another letter about so-called ‘bathroom wars’ i.e. ‘transgender’ males demanding the right to use ladies’ public restrooms.
To add a bit of clout, I attached a cartoon (some of you may have seen it, it brilliantly lampoons this nonsense) to my letter to the editor – it appears to have done the trick!
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/Launch.aspx?PBID=961426a1-cb8c-48d9-8ecc-0241cfb7817f&refresh
Readers’ Views are on p10. If you see fit, please do fire off a response to that nice Mr Steinhardt editorial@times&citizen.co.uk
Many thanks.
Apologies – that e-mail address should be editorial@timesandcitizen.co.uk
Pat McKay,
I can’t see your name on the letters page or any cartoon. I did flick through the pages to p.10 and did see letters from readers but can’t see yours (although I will try again to make sure) but I definitely can’t see any cartoon. Can you post the cartoon here separately?
Sorry, I do see your letter now – very good. I had another look, but still cannot see any cartoon.
Michaela, the editor didn’t publish that cartoon, didn’t think she would. If I can figure out how to post it here, I’ll surely do it.
Pat McKay,
I understand now. I should have guessed that. Sorry to be so thick!
Michaela, the CT editor might care to forward that cartoon to your e-mail address, if you ask her nicely (please and thank you).
Pat
Your letter is excellent. I have sent a letter to the editor in support, but I hae ma doots that it’ll be published.
Dear Editor
I loved Mark Steinhardt’s fantasy letter. Apparently we in the 21st century don’t have women stuck in unhappy marriages; now we can be unhappy in serial relationships instead. Yay! Like the 50s, we still have children beaten, abused and denied opportunity, BUT ”high reporting of abuse means less silence and injustice”. Wow. That’s progress! What a comfort to the victims that is. “You still have no protection, but at least we will cry with you”.
He acknowledges that recorded crime was low in the 50s, but assures us that the figures have been falling for some years now. Go tell it to the marines Mr Steinhardt.
Mr Steinhardt asked Mr McKay to ask any woman he knows to compare her life to her grandmother’s, and actually listen to the answer. I’ll answer Mr Steinhardt (although I doubt if HE will listen). Technological progress has made life much easier in my time than in my grandmother’s, for which much thanks, but what we have gained in material wealth and convenience we have lost in spiritual and moral integrity. We kill babies with impunity; the soil of England is drenched in the blood of “wanted” abortions, Mr Steinhardt, which apparently meets with your approval. No wonder you see a society struggling – but it’s not improving
Therese,
That’s also a fantastic letter. I do hope they publish it. It will be a travesty if they don’t.
Many thanks, Therese X.
Well done, Therese! See p12.
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/Launch.aspx?PBID=961426a1-cb8c-48d9-8ecc-0241cfb7817f&refresh
I’ll ask Madame Editor to enhance your pay-cheque.
Thanks Michaela and Pat – I’ll be checking my salary slip for good news….
Therese,
You’re flying up the pay scale, have no fear!
Madame Editor,
There are some wonderfully insightful postings on this thread and they are heart-warming to read.
Thank you to those contributors.
What does seem to be missing is a course of Catholic action by way of an appeal to the supernatural forces against which no spin doctors, politicians, fortune seekers or others driven by earthly motives can succeed.
May I propose a novena to st. George, the patron saint of England, for his intercession for the success of those seeking to break free from the growing tyranny of Brussels?
Perhaps we could start it on Wednesday 18th of May to end on Thursday 26th of May which is the Feast of Corpus Christi with the intention being: “Victory for the Leave campaign”?
http://www.sspx.co.uk/image-st-george.jpg
Leprechaun
Although I desperately want Britain to get out of that unholy alliance called the EU, I am not fooled by those who are leading the exit campaign. Boris Johnson, for example, was one of the strongest voices in favour of “gay marriage” not that long ago, so getting out of the EU is not going to make Britain any more Catholic.
I think a Novena to St. George is perfectly good as a start to get us out of that evil EU. But we all know that what we really need to see is Our Lady’s triumph in the world. Things will never really get better for any of us until that great day dawns.
Personally, I think David Cameron will pull every dirty trick in the book to ensure that Britain remains enslaved to the EU. Germany tried twice with arms to usurp control of this country and failed. Now it has full control as the boss of the EU. Why did our service personnel of the two great wars even bother to give their lives for a so-called democracy whose leaders have sold the country out to unknown and unelected foreign bureaucrats in Brussels. That kind of treachery used to be called treason. Economic advantage is all these people care about. They are dead to morality and patriotism.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3590774/Horror-plan-legalise-terminations-birth-midwives-chief-calls-end-time-limit-abortions.html#comments
http://www.citizengo.org/en/lf/34595-royal-college-of-midwives-campaigns-for-abortion-up-until-birth-for-any-reason?dr=64694::46c740054d5364aef54781cc630ad5e0&ut
PLEASE SIGN And alert others to this vital petition
Wendy,
I’ve just signed as well – this is truly barbaric.
Wendy Walker
Duly signed.
Imagine midwives advocating the murder of babies in the womb up to full term. It’s just barbaric! Animals treat their young better!
Thank you for your support Athanasius the petition seems to be going well .and the D Mail has a lot of very Pro Life comments people in total disgust and disbelief
Wendy Walker
You are most welcome. And yes, the Daily Mail is a good choice of paper to tackle this outrage.
Beyond belief! I’ve signed.
Me too.
So have I. It passes understanding that midwives, of all people, should hold such views.
https://theconversation.com/growing-pro-life-movement-presents-a-challenge-to-defenders-of-abortion-rights-59478
I’ve signed it too and I live in Australia.
Actually I sign many petitions which concern America but not Australia. I only come unstuck if I’m asked for my “zip code”.
tHANK YOU JOHN ..please invite as many other Pro Life souls to sign as well ..wonderful indeed ..Bless you
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/a-british-midwives-association-is-facing-down-a-christian-abortion-challenge
http://www.marchforlife.co.uk/blog/16/5/2016/march-for-life-uk-2016
Joy of joys ..beautiful to read
Madame Editor,
Having sent on details of the petition against later abortions to numerous contacts, I am pleased to see that, as of a few minutes ago, over 26,300 signatures had been obtained.
If this action results in the sparing of the lives of large numbers of children as yet unborn, I have to ask myself what sort of world they will grow up into? On the one hand, there is plenty of talk of the UK losing control of its borders if it votes to remain in the EU and of the influx of large numbers of people with different views to ours on what the main religion in the UK ought to be. On the other hand, we have Our Lord’s promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail.
In the meantime, I should like to see this thread return to its topic, and continue the discussion of which way to vote on 23rd June. For waverers, the Sun Newspaper is claiming that the Queen favours Brexit.
I intend to continue with my Novena to St. George as posted on 15th May.
God bless the Queen.
Leprechaun
Like you, I have always been pro monarchy. I admire Her Majesty the Queen in so many ways. She is a monarch dedicated to her vocation.
However, I cannot overlook the distressing fact that the same monarch has signed both the abortion Bill and the “gay marriage” Bill into law. That’s two occasions when our Queen has chosen human respect over the divine law. For these grave failings she most definitely needs our prayers. God save the Queen!
Athanasius and Leprechaun,
I am passionately in favour of the Monarchy too, and I am very pleased that you support our most gracious Queen. As you say, Her Majesty has seen her unique role as a vocation from God, as have her forbears. However, I share your distress at her having signed the abortion bill and same sex ‘marriage’ bill into law. Although she is a constitutional Monarch, she still has the right to withhold Royal Assent. I wrote to her when homosexual ‘marriage’ was being debated and urged her to imitate the example of the late King Baudouin, the saintly King of Belgium who refused to grant his assent to the abortion bill in 1991 and His Royal Highness Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg who refused his assent to the Euthanasia bill in 2008. He was promptly stripped of his right to veto legislation and laws no longer require his signature. I worry about Prince William though. He seems to be a shallow celebrity who neglects his duties and who seems to be bereft of any religious feeling, Protestant or not.
I will be voting to leave the EU, as this organisation is nothing more than a tool of the Devil to destabilise the Christian identity of Europe, through enforcing homosexuality, abortion and other forms of secular and liberal abominations. Also, I want out before Turkey with its population of 80 million Muslims is allowed to join, as this will lead to mass immigration and will completely ruin British communities. Immigrants from Asia (Muslims), Africa and Eastern Europe have not integrated. Why would the Turks be any different? I do not want any more Mosques, Minarets, Muslim shops, schools or madrasahs near me. Muslims breed like there’s no tomorrow, and that is how they take over. We don’t want Turks with their Grey Wolves. This is what Houari Boumedienne said about Muslim immigrants-
“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory”.
THANK YOU DEAR LEPRECHAUN
brilliant work it is so heartening to see this Petition taking off like a pro Life skyrocket ……and of course the amazing March for Life 2016 which turned Birmingham into a jubilent baby saving day of rejoicing thousands of happy pro lifers and about a dozen dour hateful screaming pro abortionists
I will be giving out my VOTE LEAVE leaflets to all and sundry hoping they will reach hearts and minds of the tyranny of the Evil Union
I’ve just come across a new movie called “Brexit, the Movie,” which is apparently an expose of what the EU has done to Europe: https://www.brexitthemovie.com/ (you can watch it online). And here is an article about the movie, with a link to it: http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/23228-pro-brexit-movie-masterfully-exposes-eu-horror-show.
BTW, I’m in the middle of Simon Schama’s book Citizen, a chronicle of the French Revolution recommended by Sir Michael Davies, and I’d have to say that the current labyrinth of EU regulations distinctly reminds me of the regulatory state of France’s ancien regime – i.e. a paralyzing maze of regulations, tariffs, checkpoints, bureaucrats, appointees…you name it…on the eve of the Revolution.
RCA Victor,
Thank you for that link to the movie about Brexit. For bloggers and lurkers who may not have 90 minutes or so to spare, there is a much shorter emission along similar lines which can be viewed on Youtube at this link if anyone can find a spare 3 minutes:
http://www.ukip.org/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fj0pwXLtvt2w&e=a74b82d5dfb64343acfed73f734fdea2&utm_source=ukip&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=urcn_may_8&n=1
I have proposed that Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame speaks out in favour of the Leave campaign, given his popularitry with a great many connoiseurs of good sense.
A decision to leave the EU could earn us the admiration of millions of subjugated Nationals on the Continent and lead to the unravelling of the Europe Project so beloved of those who are seeking the establishment of a New World Order and the dictatorship it will bring in its train.
There is no coherent oppostion to the main political parties. There is no political party that in any way represents Catholics. Rees-Mogg may have good intentions but the reality is that the tide of history, of secular self-service, is against Christianity and Catholicism in particular. All of the main parties support murder, but call it choice.
According to La Croix, a French paper, our Pope has advocated more immigrants and more muslims in Europe. The Pope equates the muslims to the barbarians who entered Europe in the 6th century and stated that they had integrated and that the muslims could too. This indicates that the Pope has not understood that the integration of the barbarians was because they adopted Christianity and the culture and mores of Christian Europe. The muslims will not do this. His Holiness came out with some other stupidities.
The translation is here:http://www.la-croix.com/Religion/Pape/INTERVIEW-Pope-Francis-2016-05-17-1200760633
I do not think that there is a single proposition or statement made by the Pope in this interview with which a traditional Catholic could agree.
So, where are we? Is the Pope really so ignorant and/or stupid? He is a Jesuit and an Argentine so one would have thought that there would be a reasonable background education. He has an army of advisors to research and provide information. It is highly likely that he knew of the interview questions in advance so his responses should not be considered careless or ill-judged or as not having been thought through. This was not conducted in a street.
So we can only conclude that this Pope really does equate jihad and the missionary work of the Church, because he says so.
As regards this he is entirely wrong, as are the proponents of immigration within the EU, and for that reason, if no other, we must vote to leave. The West is under threat, a threat that has not been equalled since the Siege of Vienna. We cannot count on the Poles to save us this time, even though they, and the Hungarians as the most Catholic of nations, are firm against immigration.
Andrew,
Please can you elaborate on why you think Hungary is particularly Catholic? Obviously, the majority of the population are baptised as Catholics, but most of them are lapsed.
Sorry for my dilatory habits. Motivation is one thing and outcomes are another. Viktor Orban has spoken out for Hungary;
“It is forbidden to say that those arriving are not refugees, but that Europe is threatened by migration.
It is forbidden to say that tens of millions are ready to set out in our direction.
It is forbidden to say that immigration brings crime and terror to our countries.
It is forbidden to point out that the masses arriving from other civilizations
endanger our way of life, our culture, our customs and our Christian traditions….
The time has come for opposition and resistance.”
From a speech by Viktor Orban, Prime Minister of Hungary, three months ago, Cackhandedly, I’ve lost the link.
A link to the full text;
http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/03/the-full-text-of-viktor-orbans-speech/
Andrew,
“I do not think that there is a single proposition or statement made by the Pope in this interview with which a traditional Catholic could agree.”
I think you are probably spot on there. Anything orthodox uttered by Papa Francis is always followed, in true Modernist fashion, by an entirely UN-orthodox statement. We really do need to pray for him – the more I think about him and the eternal destination to which, objectively speaking, he appears to be hurtling – the more I realise that fact.
http://www.messing-about-on-the-rivearchive.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/05/26/vote-leave-its-what-st-augustine-would-have-wanted/
ABORT67 shared Not In Our Name’s post.
23 hrs ·
This is a very positive development, please contact your MP to ask them to sign this EDM.
Not In Our NameLike Page
Yesterday at 14:48 ·
Labour MP Rob Flello has today tabled an Early Day Motion calling for the immediate resignation of Cathy Warwick in the interests of the reputation of the RCM. (Cathy Warwick is Head of the Royal College of Midwives/Chair of abortion provider BPAS).
If you would like to see more MPs supporting this motion, MPs do take letters from constituents seriously, so do write/visit your MP asking them to sign the Early Day Motion. Make sure to include a link to the EDM in your email. You can find your MP’s contact details here:http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/
Early Day Motion 123:
That this House is shocked by comments made by Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives (RCM), in the Daily Telegraph on 20 May 2016, in which she dogmatically states that abortion is part of the role of a midwife; notes with concern that Cathy Warwick announced at a conference organised by abortion provider British Pregnancy Advisory Service, for whom she is also Chair of Trustees, that she seeks to educate midwives who are too focused on women having babies rather than terminations and gave details on how to get around the Abortion Act 1967; recalls that, without consultation with members or the RCM board, Cathy Warwick has put the name of the RCM to a radical campaign to remove all legal restrictions on abortion, which would permit abortion to birth for any reason; further notes that UK polling in 2012 showed that only two per cent of women wanted the abortion time limit to be extended to more than 24 weeks, let alone birth; recognises that 40,000 people have signed a petition and over 900 midwives have signed an open letter to the RCM, to voice their overwhelming disappointment and anger at the RCM; and calls for the immediate resignation of Cathy Warwick in the interests of the reputation of the RCM.
Early day motion 123 – ROYAL COLLEGE OF MIDWIVES AND ABORTION
That this House is shocked by comments made by Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives (RCM), in the Daily Telegraph on 20 May…
PARLIAMENT.UK
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Wendy Walker
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Please try to do this and also share widely Thank you ..please treat as urgent
Made Editor,
For those amongst the lurkers and bloggers who want to see an escape from the Atheistic Materialism of the European Project, here is a link to an A4 poster to print out and display wherever it will be seen by many – the local Post Office, bus stop, supermarket notice board or what have you.
The more people who vote “Leave” the better the chances of a decent life for our children and grandchildren.
If you want the UK to retain the pound sterling, to retain control of its own Armed Forces, to make its own laws, to say who is allowed into the country, to be able to send home those whom we wish to send home, to set its own tax levels,including VAT, to safeguard its National Health Service from President Obama’s TIPP Initiative, then print out and display this poster:
http://www.proecclesia.com/a3windowposterHome.pdf
God bless the Dowry of Mary.
Leprechaun,
If you think leaving the EU will see us “escape from Atheistic Materialism”, there’s a lovely big house right in the centre of London you’d just love – I could get you a very good price on it, if you’re interested…
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Buckingham_Palace,_London_-_April_2009.jpg
Madame Editor,
I do not recall the occupant of the large house conceiving any of the unGodly machinations that Brussels has seen fit to introduce even though she has granted them Royal Assent after they were laid before her by our Europhile government.
Voting to leave the EU is the only human way to put a spoke in the wheel of those who are seeking to introduce a New World Order. Already Brussels is making it a criminal offence to publicly criticise the regime and that suggests dictatorial ambitions to me.
Thanks are due to Crofterlady and to Athanasius for making available the link to the very enlightening film “Brexit the movie” which I hope will inspire many of the undecided to support the Leave camp.
Leprechaun,
Well, we’ll never know, since the occupant of that large house is remaining decidedly neutral in the referendum debate. Signing in immoral laws, remaining neutral in the referendum debate… Yet, as far as we know, sleeping soundly at night. Nice work if you can get it!
For the record, I’LL be voting “leave” but not because I think it will improve the morals in the UK. If only!
Editor, this property might be coming on the market in the near future as Prince Charles says he has no intention of using it when he becomes King. Actually, the Queen only spends two nights a week there as she arrives from Windsor on Tuesday morning and leaves again on Thursday night.
Anyone looking for a palatial squat??
I don’t know if this has been posted on the blog already, but it’s worth watching:
https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0
Thank you, Crofterlady for alerting me to this video. Frightening stuff!
Athanasius, I’ve sent it to my entire address book! Even if (and I don’t believe this) only a quarter of it is true then “staying in” is not an option!
As you are very perspicacious person, can you tell me just WHY seemingly decent politicians etc., want to remain? I am completely bewildered by this.
Crofterlady
I’m not sure that any politician who wants to remain in Europe is “decent”. The overwhelming evidence against this sinister Union is so clear that no one can claim with real honesty that it is beneficial in any way to the majority of ordinary European citizens. As far as I’m concerned the politicians who want us to remain in Europe are betraying the electorate, not to mention the sovereignty of their own nation. The EU is on course to eradicate all national borders and governments. And all this from the embryonic Common Market that we were told was only a trading union for EU countries.
By the way, I believe almost everything in that Brexit movie. The facts are there and they tie in with what we are experiencing every day in our lives. That Movie should be on prime time TV. Thanks for alerting me to it.
There is also a three minute Brexit video for those who haven’t got time to watch the full Brexit movie:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w
Please can we pray a novena to Our Lady of Good Success before the 23rd June, that She may intercede for us that we can leave the godless EU
* Hail Mary Most Holy, Most Beloved Daughter of God the Father
Through the intercession of Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres,
grant thy good success to this request (name request)…
Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be…
Saint Michael, pray for us.
* Hail Mary Most Holy, Most Admirable Mother of God the Son
Through the intercession of Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres,
grant thy good success to this request (name request) …
Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be…
Saint Gabriel, pray for us.
* Hail Mary Most Holy, Most Faithful Spouse of God the Holy Ghost
Through the intercession of Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres,
grant thy good success to this request (name request) …
Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be…
Saint Raphael, pray for us.
* Hail Mary Most Holy, Temple and Sacrarium of the Most Holy Trinity.
St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, pray for us.
Our Lady of Good Success, thou who art the all-powerful intercessor before the Most Holy Trinity, deign to hear and answer my request, so long as it contributes to the salvation of my soul and the glory and exaltation of Holy Mother Church.
Hail Holy Queen…
Star of the Stormy Sea of my mortal life, may your light shine upon me so I do not stray from the path that leads me to Heaven.
WF,
Thank you for posting this novena. I have already completed the one I proposed earlier to St. George and I shall print out and say this one too.
It seems to me that human means alone are not going to be sufficient and that we must all call upon Supernatural resources – as well as putting a cross in the Leave choice on June 23rd and urging every one we meet to do the same.
We are up against a centrally coordinated group who are determined to see the overthrow of Christ’s Kingdom and we must do all we can to thwart them.
I have a postal vote and my vote to leave will be on its way tomorrow. I have a bad feeling about the outcome of this referendum, as the BBC channel 130 morning TV news, etc., which is pretty much all I watch, has given much coverage to the ‘Remain’ campaign and very little to the’Leave’. I think that David Cameron et al are conducting a cynially dishonest campaign, playing on the fears of working men and women, the majority of whom, sadly, are not interested in any issues other than those that affect them immediately and personally. Certainly if I mentioned ‘New World Order’ to those with whom I come into contact daily, they wouldn’t have the slightest idea of what I was on about.
Living, as I do, near areas of high unintegrated Muslim populations, the way the imams vote on all the postal ballot papers dutifully surrendered to them will be crucial. Does anyone know how they are likely to vote – ‘Leave’ to keep EU immigrants out or ‘Remain’ to let ever more of thei own in?
Christina
You’re saying exactly what I’ve been thinking. All the major news channels on TV are slanting the Referendum in favour of the Remain campaign. The one-sided reporting and interviewing is a shocking realisation that these TV stations are under government control.
Leprechaun and WF are right, we need supernatural help to break this Lucifer-inspired Union up once and for all.
Here’s a little optimism: http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/23330-brexit-surges-huge-sea-change-as-majority-of-brits-favor-leaving-eu
Madame Editor,
I am perplexed as to why the Catholic Church is not being more militant in its condemnation of the policies emanating from Brussels in so far as they impinge on Catholic Faith and Morals.
I should like a platform for the following Youtube video, if you will.
It lasts for 10 minutes, and has English sub-titles for a fiery address by a Polish priest, Fr. Miedlar, who has had enough of EU and USA attempts to make Poland give up its Catholic heritage and embrace the values of the world of today.
Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hakb6S0IpgY
It is just one more reason why we ought to be supporting the “Leave” campaign and encouraging others to do the same.
To RCA Victor, I say: “Thank you for that excellent link from The New American”. It makes heart warming reading and I commend it to all who are following this thread.
Yes, well, Leprechaun, we’re all pretty much perplexed as to why the hierarchy of the Church is not more militant in all sort of ways – such as teaching and preaching the Catholic Faith! When you figure it out, let us know!
RCA Victor
Thanks for posting The New American report. It made very heartening reading!
Leprechaun
Not only is the hierarchy silent on the immoral laws coming from Brussels, but Pope Francis is castigating those who are campaigning for a halt to the migrant flood. The enemies of God have nothing to fear from today’s Catholic hierarchy!
It is all part of the abandonment of Christ by the Church.
Priests no longer are interested in holiness that s how close their congregation is to God,. No, they are there to build happy Communities and then do this by saying what the congregation want to hear and what will make them popular.
And of course as dignitaries of the Church they want to be popular with the secular world. Remember how under Blair the Westminster elite used to crow that they were now influencing politics and we must build on this. Of course it proved to be the usual delusions.
Do you remember in the 90’s an Italian politician called Bunging who was to become President of the Commission. When they discovered he was a Catholic a witch hunt started. What were his views on homosexuality? He said he employed homosexuals in his business and did not judge but he did not believe in the homosexual act. Well they soon got rid of him, and not a word from Westminster. Strange that a Party so dedicated against homosexual hate should have been so keen to back an Muslim who was by his Faith also against homosexuality and abortion as Mayor of London. And there was not so much as a cough from Dianne Abbott. What if he had been a Christian?
The antics of politicians in this debate has put me off British politics. As far as I am concerned we need a proportional representative system which will kill of the power of Labour and Conservative.
Madame Editor,
I read in the “Brexit” literature this morning the following statement:
This suggests to me that those who wish to see “The European Project” succeed will stop at nothing to whip those who are under obligation to them into line, even to the extent of overriding the democratic wishes of the population.
That threat alone ought to be sufficient to encourage as many of us as possible to support “Brexit” and vote to leave the European Union so as to achieve an undeniable majority in favour of leaving and, dare I say it, to thwart any possibility of mis-counts on the night of June 23rd.
Leprechaun
I heard last night on the news that Jean Claude Junker, or whatever his name is, has promised that Britain will be punished by the EU regardless of the outcome of the referendum. How’s that for arrogance!
I remember reading that when the Irish voted against one of the treaties (?Lisbon) there were boxes of voting papers removed from voting poll stations, caught on YouTube. I’ve never tried to find the footage but it’s really not possible to leave the EU. One of the top men said years ago (and I did see this on YouTube) that all the countries in Europe would be brought in “kicking and screaming if necessary”. I can’t see us being allowed to leave. The whole referendum campaign is a con IMHO.
Margaret Mary,
I think Our Lady might have some thoughts of her own about the prediction of that top man you instance.
Let us put our trust in her, and vote “Leave” as well.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/uk-bishops-charity-will-keep-pro-abortion-catholic-as-theological-advisor
THE LATEST BOMBSHELL
Wendy,
Thank you for posting that – I had just come in to post the very same link.
And to say this: if there is anyone left in the UK who thinks these Bishops have a Catholic bone in their body, please get help. Now. They’re about as “Catholic” as the nearest Imam.
Wakey wakey! Don’t forget to vote today.
All the HOLY SAINTS ……JESUS AND OUR BLESSED LADY BE REJOICING we have thrown off out EU ..evil union shackles …thank you everyone who voted OUT …….
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/listen-i-might-as-well-have-been-in-a-forest-on-my-own-during-abortion-406693.html
Please read this poor N Irish ladies treatment for a late abortion at BPAS ….SAFE AND LEGAL THEY CHANT …I think not
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