England Consecrated To Our Lady?
Email received from Westminster Fly this morning…
I don’t know if you heard about the Fatima event at Westminster Cathedral on Saturday 18th February. It was the most packed I’ve ever seen it. They had to close the doors at one point and stop letting people in.
We only went for the re-consecration of England by Cardinal Nichols, which World Apostolate of Fatima had previously advertised, as we had already got the TLM earlier that morning at another church. World Apostolate of Fatima (WAF) who organised the event, had previously announced in their flyer that the re-consecration of England would take place before Mass, so that was all we really wanted to go for, to witness that, and we hadn’t intended to stay for the Mass at Westminster. In the event, the re-consecration took place at the end of Mass, so we had to stay for Mass. We couldn’t leave as the place was so packed, that if we had gone out, we would never have got back in again.
Although the day was a great act of honour and devotion to Our Lady by the faithful, I couldn’t help feeling disappointed. The pre-event blurb specifically stated that Cardinal Nichols would re-consecrate England to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He did mention in his sermon that he was going to ‘re-consecrate ourselves and country’ at the end of the Mass, but when we read the re-consecration prayer in the brochure that he actually recited, it didn’t actually mention England at all. It seems to be a problem with those affected by the post-conciliar diabolical disorientation – they can’t actually understand that a nation/person/place/item to be consecrated, has to be specifically mentioned as being the object of the consecration. Hence, Russia still not being consecrated.
The prayer used was an ‘edited’ (read butchered) version of the prayer used by Cardinal Griffin to consecrate England to the Immaculate Heart in 1948. I wonder who was responsible for ‘editing’ the 1948 prayer? – whether it was WAF or the Cathedral authorities? I’ve noticed other butchering of prayers related to Fatima in order to accommodate the WAF party line. The Litany of Our Lady of Fatima, was authorised and indulgenced by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon in 1938. The new version, has had the words ‘Our Lady of Fatima, preserve us from the dangers of communism’ removed – as if the world were now completely free from the threat of communism. Unfortunately, the World Apostolate of Fatima is going to do very well out of the Centenary – and spread a load of material in the UK saying that the consecration of Russia was done in 1984. I worry that the truth about Fatima is becoming increasingly marginalised. End.
Westminster Fly’s email attached a copy of the Consecration Prayer so that we could judge for ourselves… HAS, in your opinion, England been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
The Act of Consecration of England and Wales to the Immaculate Heart of Mary was read by His Eminence Cardinal Griffin within the Abbey Grounds of Walsingham on July 16th 1948.
All kneel as the following edited version is read.
ACT OF CONSECRATION
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, Refuge of the Human Race, Mother of the Church, we turn to you, confident that we shall receive mercy, grace, assistance and protection, through the great goodness of your Maternal Heart.
To you and your Immaculate Heart, in this centenary year of the apparitions at Fatima, we re-consecrate ourselves in union not only with the Church, the Mystical Body of your Son, but also with the entire world.
May the sight of the widespread material and moral destruction, the sorrows and anguish of countless fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, and innocent children, and the souls in danger of being lost eternally, move you to compassion.
O Mother of Mercy, Queen of Peace, through your intercession obtain peace for us from God through His grace; peace in truth, justice and charity, that the Kingdom of God may prevail.
Extend your protection to those who do not believe and do not find hope in God, and to all those still in the shadow of death; give them peace and grant that on them, too, may shine the sun of truth, that they may unite with us in proclaiming before the one and only Saviour of the world:”Glory to God in the highest and peace to men of good will.”
Give peace to those who have separated themselves from you; bring them back to the fold of Christ under the one true shepherd.
Obtain peace for the Holy Church of God; stop the spread of secularism and relativism; enkindle in the faithful the love of purity, the practice of Christian life, and an apostolic zeal, so that the servants of God may increase in merit and number. 
We consecrate ourselves forever to you and to your Immaculate Heart, Our Mother and Queen: that your love and patronage may hasten the triumph of the Kingdom of God and that all nations, at peace with one another and with God, may proclaim you blessed and with you may raise their voices to sing the everlasting Magnificat of glory, love and gratitude to the Heart of Jesus, where alone they can find truth and peace
Comments invited…
Comments (76)
No, I don’t think that prayer would act as a consecration of England since England isn’t mentioned, LOL!
I was surprised that they left this bit in: “bring them back to the fold of Christ under the one true shepherd.”
I agree – without naming England, England wasn’t consecrated (also, not sure about “re-consecration” – reminds me of people “renewing” their wedding vows. Doesn’t sound right…CAN one renew a vow by, presumably, repeating the words?)
Anyway, I laughed at parts of the prayer because it reminded me of the bidding prayers from my novus ordo days, when God was being instructed, told what He must do to sort out the world’s problems. This part of the prayer reminded me of that…
“Obtain peace for the Holy Church of God; stop the spread of secularism and relativism…”
I mean – what a cheek!
Baptism we are rightly told is necessary for salvation, and we are also told in an emergency anyone can baptise if there is “the will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian Baptismal formula.”
Indeed the will/intent of the celebrant has a bearing in the celebration of all the sacraments.
I assume if an event is advertised as having the purpose, and intent, of consecrating England, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and is specifically to mirror an event in 1948, and is presided over by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, who is President of the Conference of Bishops, then what was promised is what was done. People might also reflect on the meaning of Matthew 6:8
In other words to divorce oneself from how the Church herself understands things, in general, is foolish.
St Martin,
It makes no sense to say that the intention of the priest/bishop consecrating is the guarantor of the consecration taking place. In that case, we’d now be enjoying the promised period of world peace, since I’m sure those popes who either mistakenly or out of fear did not name Russia in their consecrations of the world, “intended” to consecrate Russia. Not good enough. Russia has to be publicly named, as the first nation to publicly disown God. So, my question to you is this: would you provide a reliable source to substantiate your claim that the IF the cardinal’s intention was to consecrate England to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, then that consecration would have been effected.
According to that theory, like everything else in the modernist Church, we have to play guessing games as to the cardinal’s intention – the obvious thing to do would have been to NAME England and allow no doubt. With respect, I think you are confused on this. We don’t need to guess the priest’s intention at the consecration of the Mass because there the use of the correct matter and form (words) make public the priest’s intention. One would expect the same in the case of a consecration, but if I’m wrong, I’d like to know that from a reliable source, not someone’s opinion on a blog – even this blog!
I cannot see the relevance of Matthew 6:8 – taking a scripture verse out of context to press a point of view, is never a good idea.
Editor
We hardly have to guess what The Cardinal was doing. The website of the WFA states:
“The WAF programme will start with a Visitation of the Statue and Relics to Westminster Cathedral on Saturday 18 February 2017, from 1:45 pm onwards, when Cardinal Nichols will bless the statue and crown it with a new silvergilt Centenary Crown that is being specially made in Portugal by the same firm that made the richly bejewelled crown that is only worn on the 13th of May to October……. The Cardinal will then preside at Mass and renew the consecration of England and Wales to the Immaculate Heart of Mary that was made by Cardinal Griffin at Walsingham on 16 July 1948.”
You can quibble about the renew the consecration bit, but the purpose of the gathering is clear.
I think if Matthew 6:8 is correct,- surely it is – and it is talking about prayer in general, and therefore cannot be taken out of context, than words remain words, and the need and intent is what matters.
You miss the point. You wouldn’t say that if everyone gathered for Mass and then someone expressed concern that there had been no confection of the Eucharist, would you… You wouldn’t say “it’s obvious that the priest completed the consecration because Mass was advertised and the church was packed.” Of course not. You would point out that he had prayed the prescribed words of consecration – that’s the ONLY way – since we cannot read minds – that we would know that the priest completed the consecration.
Gerragrip.
The Purpose & Intention… Good, but the Words must be contained, in the ‘Act’ …Sorry!
St. Martin
What is “foolish” is to imagine that the same intention (not to mention liturgical rite for Mass) will be “mirrored” by Cardinal Nichols, the prelate who placed flowers at the shrine of a Hindu deity in a false temple not so long ago. Sorry, but I’m afraid the intention will not be the same this year as it was in 1948. The Catholic religion has been altered out of all recognition since that time, to the extent that it now resembles in liturgy and language something more akin to low Anglicanism, which would have horrified Cardinal Griffin.
The truth of the matter is that while it is always refreshing to see a Catholic prelate these days displaying any kind of public devotion to the Mother of God, (they usually avoid anything that could offend Protestants), the same prelate would probably think nothing of entering a heretical or pagan house of worship, which is gravely offensive to God and to the Blessed Virgin.
I’m not having a go at Cardinal Nichols here, just stating what is evident to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear. There is much hypocrisy, however unintended,
Our Lady of Fatima asked for a public and solemn consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart by the Pope and the bishops of the world. That request has been repeatedly refused by the Popes and the hierarchy of the Church, and will be refused again in this centenary year.
You will not hear Cardinal Nichols or any other prelate speak out about this scandal, neither will you hear the clarion call from WAF, which organisation deliberately deceives Catholics by proffering the obvious falsehood that the 1984 Act of John Paul II, which made no mention of Russia and did not include the world’s bishops, fulfullied heaven’s requests. The matter, of course, has become further complicated by Cardinal Bertone’s bizarre assurance that Sister Lucy gave him (?) a nod of approval on the 1984 Act. If she did, then I’m afraid she contradicted everything she had vehemently insisted on for validity for many decades prior to this unwitnessed meeting with Cardinal Bertone.
It’s all very odd considering that Pope John Paul II himself confirmed that he was not doing what Our Lady requested of him when he inserted the unscripted line into his 1984 prayer that read: “enlighten especially those peoples whose consecration YOU STILL AWAIT FROM US”.
So while I welcome this event as at least a public honouring of Our Lady, I would much prefer that she be given the honour that God wants her to have, which is the honour of seeing the entire Catholic hierarchy humble itself at her feet and call upon her in the public and solemn way she requested to save this world in peril through the conversion of atheist Russia and the global triumph of her Immaculate Heart. Our Lord does not accept half measures when it comes to honouring His Blessed Mother. He is especially offended when such half measures are presented falsely as the full measure.
Perfect reply Athanasius.
Christopher Ferrara deals very well with the WAF situation and Cdl Bertone’s allegations arising from his meetings with Sister Lucia in these books:-
http://www.secretstillhidden.com/book.html
http://www.falsefriendsoffatima.com/toc.html
Agree and you will remember Cardinal Nichols telling people like US to HOLD THEIR TONGUES regarding certain masses in central London!
Athanasius
I have no interest in seeking to explain , or defend, any past action of Cardinal Nichols. However, is absolutely clear why he, and everyone else in The Cathedral, were present on February 18th. They were there to consecrate England and Wales to the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Indeed the person who inspired the editor to publish this thread stated we “only went for the re-consecration of England by Cardinal Nichols, which World Apostolate of Fatima had previously advertised,…”
That’s the whole point St Martin. We only went for the re-consecration because that is what we were told was going to happen. The question is – did it? The actual act did not refer to ‘England’, ‘our country’, ‘our nation’ or anything like that. So what was consecrated? ‘Ourselves’. What is defined by ‘ourselves’? That could define any group – those in the Cathedral on that day, the Diocese, the Catholic community in general . . . why the vagueness and ambiguity? It was obviously a general act of consecration, but I think it’s stretching a point to consider it as an actual re-consecration of England. As some friends who attended wrote after the event:- “You can’t have a recipe for beef stew without putting beef in . . . and we think you can’t consecrate England if you don’t name England!” Vagueness when making such acts seems to have become the norm in the post-conciliar church – on the rare occasions such acts are performed at all. There seems to be a basic failure to understand that in order for a nation/person/place or item to be consecrated, reason dictates that it has to be specifically mentioned in the act of consecration as being the object of that consecration. On Saturday 18th Feb, that didn’t happen.
Three things:
1. The event was advertised as a ceremony in which the consecration would take place.
2. You have evidence that everyone present was there for a specific purpose: the consecration of England and Wales to The Immaculate Heart of Mary.
3. The Cardinal himself was very, very. explicit in his homily as to why people were there, and what he was he, and they, were to do. I quote:
“This is why today we consecrate ourselves, our entire lives, our country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so we can always be saying ‘Yes’ to the Lord, with all our heart with all our will, from the centre of our being. Only Mary can teach us how to do this. ”
Good Catholics listen to the Homily!
St Martin,
1) It was an email from the WAF President (dated 25 Jan) that specifically stated that it was going to be a re-consecration of England. This information would have mainly been available to those on the WAF mailing list.
In fact, on the official flyer advertising the event, which most people would have seen, the re-consecration of England wasn’t even mentioned. It was just referred to as an Act of Consecration. See here:- http://www.worldfatima-englandwales.org.uk/pdfs/npvs-westminster.pdf
2) I have no such evidence. People may have been there for a variety of reasons. Anyone who went that day could have gone for the reason of paying honour to Our Lady of Fatima in general, or being part of any of the day’s programme, such as Mass, veneration of the Fatima seer’s relics, etc. Like they do at the ‘A Day with Mary’ events which take place every week. As explained above, it’s likely that the majority of people would have only seen the flyer which didn’t specifically mention the re-consecration of England
3) I said that the Cardinal did say that in his homily, I didn’t deny that. But if good Catholics listen to the homily, they also listen to the prayer. I did. Something was missing. Why was that? Why not do something as worthwhile as this with clarity and explicitly?
St. Martin,
Yes, those words are perfectly good and wholesome. I just wonder why the Popes and hierarchy since Vatican II have manifestly refused to humbly and obediently consecrsate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart, as she requested. It seems to me that there are double standards at work here, although I hope for Cardinal Nichols’ sake that he is beginning to see the light on that score.
One example:- here’s the prayer of the Consecration of Ireland publicly made by Abp Eamon Martin at Knock in 2013.
Prayer for the Act of Consecration of Ireland to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Refuge of Sinners, we entrust and consecrate ourselves, our family, our home, our Dioceses and Ireland our country to Jesus through your Immaculate Heart. As your children, we promise to follow your example in our lives by doing at all times the will of God.
O Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, we renew today the promises of our Baptism and Confirmation. Intercede for us with the Holy Spirit that we may be always faithful to your Divine Son, to his Mystical Body, the Catholic Church, and to the teachings of his Vicar on earth, our Holy Father the Pope.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Queen and our Mother, we promise to uphold the sanctity of marriage and the welfare of the family. Watch over our minds and hearts and preserve our young people from dangers to their faith and the many temptations that threaten them in the world today.
We ask you, Mary our Advocate to intercede with your divine Son. Obtain for our country the grace to uphold the uniqueness of every human life, from the first moment of conception to natural death.
O Blessed Mother, Our Life, Our Sweetness and Our Hope, we wish that this Consecration be for the greater glory of God and that it lead us safely to Jesus your Son.
A Naomh-Mhuire, a Mháthair Dé, guigh orainn na peacaigh, anois agus ar uair ár mbáis.
Amen
Spot the difference?
WF,
““You can’t have a recipe for beef stew without putting beef in . . . and we think you can’t consecrate England if you don’t name England!”
In the proverbial nutshell! Well said.
I fully agree with you. In the past, when Poland or Portugal..were ‘Consecrated’, the Bishops named them, in the actual ‘Act’. Cardinal Bourne, in 1917-1919, clearly mentioned ‘England’, I believe. Sad about 18th Feb. but we must Pray & request that these crucial words are included, next time….maybe in Walsingham Shrine, with all the Bishops present. (DV)!
St. Martin
Yes, the consecration of anyone or anything to Our Lady is an event to be welcomed and praised, just so long as we don’t forget that in these cases of Church hierarchy consecrating everyone and everything to the Immaculate Heart of Mary except what she specifically requested, we acknowledge that she is being short changed.
St. Martin
“Baptism we are rightly told is necessary for salvation…”
I agree with you; this is an infallible dogma of the Faith. But I fear that Pope Francis and the bishops may not agree with you, for they no longer preach this fundamental truth to non-Christians.
A post-Vatican II new dogma placing the “dignity of the human person” at the centre of all things is now the essential teaching. It’s all about getting along in this world, each with his own god, fighting for social justice and the salvation of mother earth.
When was the last time you heard a Pope or bishop inviting non-Christians to abandon their false religions and embrace Jesus Christ, as did the Apostles and all the Popes and bishops up to Vatican II? It’s a serious question for serious reflection in light of the divinely revealed dogma you mention.
Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary for England
O blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our most gentle Queen and Mother, look down in mercy upon England thy “Dowry” and upon us all who greatly hope and trust in thee. By thee it was that Jesus our Saviour and our hope was given unto the world; and He has given thee to us that we might hope still more. Plead for us thy children, whom thou didst receive and accept at the foot of the Cross, O sorrowful Mother. Intercede for our separated brethren, that with us in the one true fold they may be united to the one true Shepherd, the Vicar of thy Son. Pray for us all, dear Mother, that by faith fruitful in good works we may all deserve to see and praise God, together with thee, in our heavenly home.
Beautiful, Therese. A truly beautiful prayer for England.
Thank you Therese! I love that prayer and remember it being said in church. I wonder who decided to abolish it and why? Why on earth would you?
Many thanks indeed Therese. I well remember this prayer being recited at the end of Mass when I was a boy. Memories!
You can remember being a boy? That far back? WHAT a memory! 😀
For the Novus Ordo Church that is as ‘traditional’ in terms of doctrine as you’re ever going to get. I almost fear to read Cardinal Griffin’s original to see what was cut out.
Benedict,
Would be very interesting indeed to see what has been omitted from Cardinal Griffith’s original prayer. I wouldn’t be surprised if Westminster Fly can dig that out for us. He’s a whiz at research…
I agree. Since England wasn’t mentioned, I can’t see how it would work!
Exactly, Helen. It’s like a joke that doesn’t mention the “Irishman, the Englishman and the Scotsman” isn’t it?
Well, perhaps not 😀
On a Friday afternoon in late July of 2006, I joined over a hundred traditional Catholics led by priests of the SSPX at the walls of Rochester Cathedral to commence a three-day petition to Heaven for the return of England to the Catholic Faith. Our assembly of English, French, Welsh, American, German, Swedish, Croatian, Zimbabwean, and other faithful from around the globe culminated the 41-mile trek, footsore but ebullient, with a Mass set in the ruins of half-forgotten St. Augustine’s abbey in the shadow of Canterbury Cathedral.
Our pilgrimage wound its way along the old Pilgrim’s Trail often by the upper chalk ridge over road, field, and wood, ornamented with hymns, litanies, chants, and rosaries.
At the Friday night camp, after the tents were erected, we had a low Mass followed by a welcome hot meal. Saturday morning we rose to a sung Mass before resuming the march through the Kent Downs, spending one more night under canvas before arriving at Canterbury.
We processed in two columns through the narrow streets of the ancient town, parting the crowds while singing in Latin the Litany of Loreto in petition to the Holy Mother of God, a tribute to the Queen of All Saints in whose honor a Catholic England once bore the cognomen “Dowry of Mary.” The curious and passers-by received leaflets about the Society and Tradition; many took photos and video of our traveling fellowship – souvenirs of what, Our Good Lord willing, will one day become a regular occurrence.
The majestic Gothic Cathedral of St. Thomas a Becket seemed to spring suddenly into view, a spectacular sight after traversing the narrow and constricting maze of city streets. One can only imagine what this site of grandeur, this hint of Heaven, would have seemed like to a medieval pious peasant who had known only hovel, barn, and stable.
We made our way past the cathedral to the ancient site of the abbey of St. Augustine, the first Archbishop of Canterbury and the Apostle of the English who journeyed to the shores of the Sceptred Isle at the behest of Pope St. Gregory the Great. The foundation pillars of the abbey still stand, the bare bones of the old church, the rest having been swept away in the great tide that was the suppression of English monasteries during the rule of King Henry VIII.
Ethelbert, a pagan Saxon King, ruled Kent when Augustine arrived, and in the ruin one could almost imagine hearing the chant of the Saxon saint Caedmon when he sang about the creation of all things:
Praise we the Fashioner of Heaven’s fabric,
The majesty of His might and His mind’s wisdom,
Work of the world-warden, worker of all wonders,
How He the Lord of Glory everlasting,
Wrought first for the race of men Heaven as a rooftree,
Then made He Middle Earth to be their mansion.
The sun shone hot down on us; no breeze or sound disturbed us there. At the Mass no instrument was heard save the voices of the schola, who sang the plainchant of that same Gregory who commissioned Augustine to quit Rome for Britain. The chief intention of the pilgrimage was the return of England to the faith, but each of us brought our own petitions as well; we united them with those of the priest at the altar, who stood in the place of Our Blessed Lord as the mediator between God and men, this alter Christus who offered our prayers and requests to the King of Heaven in union with that one supreme offering that took place 2,000 years ago in another forsaken, half-forgotten place.
“And I pray thee, loving Jesus, that as Thou hast graciously given me to drink in with delight the words of Thy knowledge, so Thou wouldst mercifully grant me to attain one day to Thee, the fountain of all wisdom and to appear forever before Thy face.”
– St. Bede the Venerable
Beautiful, WurdeSmythe. I particularly enjoyed the prayer of St. Caedmon. Once they were converted from their heathenish ways, our Anglo-Saxon forebears brought all their genius and fervour to the Church, converting the Netherlands, Belgium and much of Germany and providing Europe with some of its greatest Bishops, theologians and Saints. The law codes of Aelfred the Great and others are marvels of Catholic piety as well as legal documents of the highest importance. May God grant that we modern English had a modicum of their faith.
Despite this effort at a consecration leaving a lot to be desired, at least it didn’t (I hope!) sink to the depths of what Anglicans were allowing in Canterbury Cathedral the same day:
Justin Welby, the Church of England’s Archbishop of Canterbury, is allowing a full Masonic service to be conducted in Canterbury cathedral on the same day that Cardinal Nichols reconsecrates England and Wales to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Westminster cathedral on the 18th February 2017.
http://www.onepeterfive.com/freemason-service-englands-mother-church-day-consecration-lady/
I don’t get all this Rededication stuff or people renewing their wedding vows.
Multiple attempts at Consecrating Russia without specifically mentioning Russia etc.
Why not just get it right the first time?
So did Nichol’s think that the first consecration by Griffin was not up to the mark and had to be corrected?……and then correct it by a half baked version to put things right? Will someone now dedicate Scotland and someone else dedicate Wales or Northern Ireland.
I am sorry to put it this way, but in my honest opinion, this thing in London is starting to take on a show biz sheen.
What is heartening about WF’s report is that the faithful flocked to the cathedral for the consecration ceremony. That they had to “close the doors at one point and stop letting people in” is edifying in the extreme!
Proves that there is still a deep love for Our Lady in England. Deo gratias!
Editor
Yes, that is heartening. Another heartening development is that for the last few years a number of Catholics, prelates, priests, religious and faithful, have been signing a petition asking the Holy Father to formally declare, as dogma, Our Lady Mediatrix of all graces, co-redemptrix and advocate. The last time I checked, a while back, the signatories numbered in excess of 5 million. When the Pope and the bishops do finally grant Our Lady’s request for a public and solemn consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart, and we know that it will happen, though “it will be late”, as The Blessed Mother said, that’s when the grace will come for a formal definition of the ‘Fifth Marian Dogma’. Until then we can only watch sorrowfully as Churchmen pursue their own agenda in false ecumenism.
Yes, so glad that you mentioned this ‘5th Marian Dogma’ to be proclaimed…This combined with the clear and ‘solemn Consecration of England and Wales’.
Then, we will have our ‘Era of Peace’ – as per Fatima. All this soon…Please God!
Diarmuid,
Our Lady didn’t ask for the consecration of England and Wales. She asked for the Consecration of Russia in a prescribed manner. When THAT happens, the promised period of peace will begin.
Athanasius,
Is this the petition you mention:- http://www.fifthmariandogma.com ? This outfit is run by Dr Mark Miravalle who, as well as being the President of the International Catholic Movement Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici (Voice of the People For Mary Mediatrix) is also an avid promoter of Medjugorje and has written books on how to live the Medjugorje message. I’m not saying that this discredits the Fifth dogma, but it’s as well to be aware of these things. Crazy mixed-up ole church, innit?
I forgot to add – the impetus for the 5th Dogma is very linked in with the dubious apparitions of Our Lady of all Nations, Amsterdam, which has a very chequered history:- https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/our_lady_of_all_nations.htm – even to the CDF having to ‘correct’ a prayer that ‘Our Lady’ gave to the alleged ‘seer’. Dr Miravalle even refers to a Lady of All Nations (LAN) message on the Voice of the People For Mary Mediatrix petition page, right at the end: “Our Lady has promised to intercede for the inestimable grace of world peace when the Holy Father proclaims this fifth Marian Dogma (LAN, May 31, 1954).” http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/petition-in-english
Westminsterfly,
I had no idea that Dr. Mark Miravalle was into the false appartion of Medjugorje, so thank you for that piece of valuable information. I don’t suppose you can point me to a web link where he peddles Medjugorje?
He and Vox Populi were the sources I based my comments on, as you suspected, but everything I read in relation to the Fifth Marian Dogma was perfectly Traditional and theologically sound. This Medjugorje business is therefore very unfortunate. A very mixed up ole Church indeed!
As for the ‘Our Lady of the Nations’ claims, I’ve always been very dubious about them as well. I think I’ll have to re-visit the fifth marian dogma website and dig a bit deeper. Fortunately, we have a solid background of orthodox theologians backing the Fifth Marian Dogma long before Dr. Miravalle came on the scene. What confusion these modern Marianists sow with their mixing in of unapproved, sometimes condemned, apparition messages with orthodox Marian doctrine. Very misleading for people and quite dangerous!
Hi Athanasius,
Go to Dr Miravalle’s own website:- http://www.markmiravalle.com and scroll down. You’ll see his Medj books advertised there alongside ones promoting the 5th Marian Dogma. I know Our Lady of All Nations (LAN) has been given a form of approval by the local Ordinary, but I don’t believe in it at all. I’ve read the official books and I was shocked that anyone could accept these bizarre ramblings as authentic messages from Our Lady. These alleged apparitions were always condemned in saner times, but now, it seems anything goes.
A man called Mark Waterinckx used to be a big promoter of Medjugorje but got too close to the key players and realised the fraud. After this, he spent all his time exposing Medjugorje and other false apparitions, including LAN. He did a lot of sterling work on these problems. Some of the work he did on LAN, which was submitted to the Holy See, can be seen here- http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/amsterda/amsterd1.html (ironically this website is run by one of the WAF committee, Donal Foley, but the article by Mark is sound).
The LAN prayer which ‘Our Lady’ supposedly gave the ‘seer’ Ide Peerdeman was changed by the CDF – would Our Lady really give a prayer for the faithful to pray that was in need of theological correction? http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2005/08/cdf-caution-abo
Also, there is an interesting article on LAN here, by Hildegard Alles http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/AmsterdamEngels.htm showing Peerdeman’s link with another false and condemned seer, Marie Paule Giguere from Canada. Peerdeman, in a letter, once referred to Giguere as the Lady of All Nations!
Unfortunately, Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici (VPMM) and Dr Mark Miravalle are very mixed up with LAN and Medjugorje – even, as I said, to mentioning one of the alleged LAN messages from Ide Peerdeman on the 5th Marian Dogma petition page. It’s why I’ve always kept a distance from this group, because I suspect that at least some of the work of VPMM has been influenced by the messages of Ide Peerdeman.
I agree with you, it is very frustrating when good and bad things get mixed up like this. It becomes a minefield trying to sort the wheat out from the chaff.
PS Another interesting fact is that the statue of Our Lady of Akita was directly modelled on the image of Our Lady of All Nations.
WOW! That IS interesting, WF.
My first thought after reading the alleged consecration – in which no specific place was mentioned, let alone England – was to evaluate it as a typical Novus Ordo ritual, such as the new “blessing” of Holy Water, in which (as Father Z pointed out several years ago) the water is not actually blessed – nor exorcised; not to mention the new Rite of Exorcism, in which, in the “deprecatory” option, the Church “asks,” rather than “commands,” that the devil be removed from the subject. This article is highly instructive on that: http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2002_SU_Father_X.html
(The article also cites the new Rite of Baptism as guilty of the same fault).
As for “St Martin’s” preposterous and laughable claim that a Consecration of England took place because that is what was advertised, all I can do is to repeat the old adage, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” I have to wonder how many times he has been victimized by the old “bait and switch” tactic used by retailers. I also wonder whether he is employed by the WAF, one of the “false friends of Fatima” cited by Christopher Ferrara in his book of the same name.
As for the request to “stop the spread of secularism and relativism,” shouldn’t His Eminence have added, “such as we find in Amoris Laetitia“?
Finally, regarding the removal of “Our Lady of Fatima, preserve us from the dangers of communism” from Cardinal Griffin’s original prayer, that certainly is in keeping with the fraud perpetrated by WAF. After all, if Russia has been consecrated, thus converted, then it must follow that communism must be dead!
(Red China? North Korea? Cuba? The EU? – oh, not to worry, those are just land masses governed by no discernible political systems….)
I publicly affirm that the WAF is a fraud, and that this “consecration” is likewise a fraud, and I challenge anyone from that devious organization to come on here and attempt to prove otherwise.
Just a wee clarification – the words “Our Lady of Fatima, preserve us from the dangers of communism” were not in Cardinal Griffin’s consecration prayer. They formed part of the Litany of Our Lady of Fatima which was authorised and indulgenced by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon in 1938.
RCA Victor,
Well said – not so long ago, if you recall, we ran a thread on WAF. Fraud, indeed. Click here to reach that thread. Memories are made of this, as the song goes 😀
I couldn’t help thinking of our long lamented Irish blogger, Leo when I read your “sucker born every minute” quip, because when any such nonsense was spouted here, Leo would come on and say that he knew of a bridge in Dublin for sale!
Mind you, there IS something in what St Martin says, because, after all, if all one has to do to guarantee success is to advertise, that explains why the Scottish Catholic Observer refuse to accept ads for our conferences!
Yep, It’s a Barnum & Bailey World.
RCA Victor
I agree with every word. Well put!
RCA Victor, I am of the opinion that ANYTHING to do with Nichols, Pope Francis and the clique is just pure showbiz these days, Interviews on planes…World Youth Day or whatever is turning in to the Ziegfield Follies and all that is missing is Cecil B. De Mille. It is almost turning in to a Broadway musical. Just another opportunity to remind us of them. Them being clerical Celebs and wanting to stay in the A list. Sick and tired of the nonsense.
St. Miguel
Could I kindly remind you that we should never fail as Catholics to give prelates their due title out of respect for the sacred office they hold. No matter what our opinion of Cardinal Nichols may be, we ae bound before God to show respect to his office and call him either Cardinal or His Eminence. Don’t take it the wrong way but it’s Modernists who usually fail in their respect for ecclesiastical office. We Traditionalists do not want to emulate their bad example, I’m sure.
Athanasius,
Thank you for that. I actually went into St Miguel’s post to replace”Bergoglio” with “Pope Francis” but didn’t notice “Nichols”. I have to say that his is not the only posts that I’ve had to edit in this way, so would everyone take note please, that – like him or not – we should use the correct titles for the hierarchy.
It’s commonplace across the internet to refer to “Bergoglio” but I don’t like it for two reasons. Firstly, it’s hard to type (!) but also because with so many people showing themselves to be, effectively, sedevacantists, it’s important to make clear that we are NOT!
Thus, St Miguel, in case you’ve not noticed that I always make the change to “Pope Francis” when I see you’ve typed “Bergoglio”, be aware that you will be helping me enormously to cut my workload if you will simply observe the norm of using correct forms of address. Doesn’t signal approval. It just makes clear that you have not fallen into the rather arrogant error of deciding you know who is and who is not a legitimate pope, so, please and thank you for that!
It is worth noting, of course, that the use of “Bergoglio” is commonplace even in the writings of those who are most keen to identify as “traditionalists” (me, I’m a simple Catholic… very simple) but even in articles by columnists for The Remnant, for example, this form of address is used – they routinely refer to “Bergoglio”.. Let us, as we always try to do, keep flying the authentically Catholic flag by giving this (horrendous) pope, his proper title; whether he wants it or not!
http://www.flagsofallcountries.com/Europe/Vatican/superbandera2-vatican_city_hw.gif
Editor
You put it so much better than I, and I agree entirely. I think the origin of not using proper ecclesiastical titles lies in contempt for the person in error, which of course is not in line with charity. By using proper titles we show that we are respectful of the office held by the one we disagree with.
I agree Athanasius. I have respectfully asked His Eminence, to have ‘England & Wales’ included… next time. Just so important. Our Lady and all in Heaven want these solemn Consecrations, in all Dioceses and all Nations!
Diarmuid,
Certainly, such national consecrations would be sure to be well received in Heaven – we can guess that.
But we don’t need to guess how the Consecration of Russia will be received because Our Lady told us that THAT consecration would result in the gift of a period of peace in the world and in the Church.
Once the Pope with all the bishops of the world in union with him, carry out that request of Our Lady, what a difference we will see in the world and the Church. That we know, and we must do all in our power to achieve that end. No other consecration can replace the Consecration of Russia.
“England Consecrated To Our Lady?”
That would be a very good idea!
Much more than a ‘good idea’! Our Lady’s great desire. The Saints & Doctors of the Church, would support it, also!
Diurmuid,
As I have said in response to your other posts today, we cannot be sure that such national consecrations are desired by Our Lady, although, no doubt, they would please her. But not as a substitute for the one Consecration that she has requested – the Consecration of Russia, as prescribed when she made the request in the Fatima apparitions.
I would also like to point out the use of the words “we” and “us” throughout this phony consecration – another dead Novus Ordo giveaway, and the primary telltale sign of a church that has uncrowned Our Lord and re-made the Catholic Church into a church of man.
(I’m sure St Martin would come back and assure us that “we” and “us” refers to the nation of England, so bearing that in mind, I propose the following re-write of the first stanza of “God Save the Queen”):
God save our Gracious Selves,
Long live our Noble Personages,
God save our Individual Identities:
Send them victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over Us:
God save our Gracious Selves.
After all, everyone knows we’re referring to the Queen, right?
RCA Victor,
Brilliant! Nail on head, yet again!
It might be worth remembering that England is the only country in the world designated as Mary’s Dowry, and it is for that reason that only in England is it permitted to publicly pray The Hail Mary at Mass (as part of The Prayers of the Faithful).
As “we”, and, “us” was spoken by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, as President of The Conference of Bishops, in a liturgy for the purpose of consecrating England and Wales to The Immaculate Heart of Mary, then it would be difficult for anyone to misunderstand the way in which they are used, and the fact they are addressed to God.
You are just playing mind games. Face reality, please: in order for a PLACE to be consecrated, the PLACE has to be NAMED. Now where, pray tell, was the PLACE NAMED during the prayer?
(According to your logic, when Pope Francis visited the United States, yet never mentioned the word “Christ,” we should all assume that some of his words actually indicated “Christ.”)
RCA Victor
You claim that The Pope never mentioned the word “Christ” in The USA. Respectfully, I offer you a few examples of where he mentioned Jesus Christ during his visit:
All of you here, children and adults, have a right to dream and I am very happy that here in school, in your friends and your teachers, in all who are here to help, you can find the support you need. Wherever there are dreams, wherever there is joy, Jesus is always present. Always. But who is it that sows sadness, that sows mistrust, envy, evil desires? What is his name? The devil. The devil always sows sadness, because he doesn’t want us to be happy; he doesn’t want us to dream. Wherever there is joy, Jesus is always present. Because Jesus is joy, and he wants to help us to feel that joy every day of our lives
Our Lady, Queen of Angels School, Harlem, New York
Friday, 25 September 2015
“The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light”. One special quality of God’s people is their ability to see, to contemplate, even in “moments of darkness”, the light which Christ brings. God’s faithful people can see, discern and contemplate his living presence in the midst of life, in the midst of the city. Together with the prophet Isaiah, we can say: The people who walk, breathe and live in the midst of smog, have seen a great light, have experienced a breath of fresh air.
Madison Square Garden, New York
Friday, 25 September 2015
First, those words – “What about you?” – were addressed to a young person, a young woman with high ideals, and they changed her life. They made her think of the immense work that had to be done, and to realize that she was being called to do her part. How many young people in our parishes and schools have the same high ideals, generosity of spirit, and love for Christ and the Church! I ask you: Do we challenge them? Do we make space for them and help them to do their part? To find ways of sharing their enthusiasm and gifts with our communities, above all in works of mercy and concern for others? Do we share our own joy and enthusiasm in serving the Lord?
One of the great challenges facing the Church in this generation is to foster in all the faithful a sense of personal responsibility for the Church’s mission, and to enable them to fulfill that responsibility as missionary disciples, as a leaven of the Gospel in our world. This will require creativity in adapting to changed situations, carrying forward the legacy of the past not primarily by maintaining our structures and institutions, which have served us well, but above all by being open to the possibilities which the Spirit opens up to us and communicating the joy of the Gospel, daily and in every season of our life.
Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul, Philadelphia
Saturday, 26 September 2015
Jesus was not a confirmed bachelor, far from it! He took the Church as his bride, and made her a people of his own. He laid down his life for those he loved, so that his bride, the Church, could always know that he is God with us, his people, his family. We cannot understand Christ without his Church, just as we cannot understand the Church without her spouse, Christ Jesus, who gave his life out of love, and who makes us see that it is worth the price.
B. Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia
Saturday, 26 September 2015
My dearest brothers and sisters in Christ, I am grateful for this opportunity to meet you, I am blessed by your presence. Thank you for corning here today.
Words cannot fully express my sorrow for the abuse you suffered. You are precious children of God who should always expect our protection, our care and our love. I am profoundly sorry that your innocence was violated by those who you trusted. In some cases the trust was betrayed by members of your own family, in other cases by priests who carry a sacred responsibility for the care of soul. In all circumstances, the betrayal was a terrible violation of human dignity.
St. Charles Borromeo Seminary, Philadelphia
Sunday, 27 September 2015
We also know in faith that Jesus seeks us out. He wants to heal our wounds, to soothe our feet which hurt from travelling alone, to wash each of us clean of the dust from our journey. He doesn’t ask us where we have been, he doesn’t question us what about we have done. Rather, he tells us: “Unless I wash your feet, you have no share with me” (Jn 13:8). Unless I wash your feet, I will not be able to give you the life which the Father always dreamed of, the life for which he created you. Jesus comes to meet us, so that he can restore our dignity as children of God. He wants to help us to set out again, to resume our journey, to recover our hope, to restore our faith and trust. He wants us to keep walking along the paths of life, to realize that we have a mission, and that confinement is never the same thing as exclusion.
Philadelphia
Sunday, 27 September 2015
Pointedly, yet affectionately, Jesus tells us: “If you, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Lk 11:13). How much wisdom there is in these few words! It is true that, as far as goodness and purity of heart are concerned, we human beings don’t have much to show! But Jesus knows that, where children are concerned, we are capable of boundless generosity. So he reassures us: if only we have faith, the Father will give us his Spirit.
B. Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia
Sunday, 27 September 2015
Thank you for the correction – I was actually thinking of the Pope’s speech to Congress during his visit of that year, my mistake. As you can see from the transcript of that speech, there was no mention of Our Lord, though he did mention God. Rather odd for the Vicar of Christ, wouldn’t you say?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/transcript-pope-franciss-speech-to-congress/2015/09/24/6d7d7ac8-62bf-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html?utm_term=.278a99dfab4e
But let’s return to the topic at hand: are you going to admit that there was no consecration of England during this Mass, or are we going to keep going round in circles about it?
I think in speaking of God we are speaking of Christ, as he is the second person of The Holy Trinity.
St Martin,
Would you please answer the question posed by RCA Victor, which is at the heart of this thread? For ease of reference, here it is again (if you do not answer it, I’ll assume that have our troll back under a fresh, if rather thin, disguise):
“…are you going to admit that there was no consecration of England during this Mass, or are we going to keep going round in circles about it?
Editor
I am not ignoring the question.
In every post I have made, implicitly and explicitly, I have answered it and argued that it was not essential to name the Country as the prayer was offered, in a particular context, by The Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, President of the Conference of E and W and those attending came for the purpose advertised. Further, the Cardinal specifically stated in the homily what he was going to do.
I think a God, who can read our minds and hearts, and knows what we want before we ask him, can surely easily hear the prayer offered in sincerity, and in a very specific context.
I also have much sympathy with your own view, vows etc, cannot be renewed. or re-made, if the original act was undertaken sincerely before God.
In other words, I so far as you can renew things, and that it is necessary, the consecration took place.
I think this would have been a better Consecration prayer:-
O Immaculate Virgin Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Mother of Grace,
and Queen of the kingdom of thy Son,
humbly kneeling before thee,
we offer thee this country in which we live.
It once was thine.
Before it was robbed of the holy Faith
all its children were thy children,
and thou wast honoured throughout its length and breadth
as its Protectress and its Queen.
Again do we consecrate it to thee;
again do we dedicate it as thine own Dowry.
We offer our own hearts,
that their love and service
may ever grow and increase.
We offer all our brethren
those multitudes who know thee so little
or know thee not at all.
May thy prayer bring back the country’s ancient faith.
May thy intercession lead us to a closer union
with thy divine Son.
We consecrate ourselves to Him through thee.
Obtain for us,
and for England thy Dowry,
every grace and blessing,
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray.
O Holy Mother of God, Virgin ever blest,
O Mary Immaculate, pray for us,
intercede for us, disdain not to help us.
For we are confident and know for certain
that thou canst obtain all thou wiliest from thy Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ,
God Almighty, the King of ages,
who liveth with the Father and the Holy Ghost,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
St. Martin
Completely ridiculous position! How can anyone claim to consecrate a place or person without actually mentioning the place or person? It’s too stupid an argument even to warrant discussion.
St. Martin
You seem to forget that mentioning God is far less offensive to non-Christians than mentioning Christ, precisely because they reject Christ as God and don’t believe in the Blessed Trinity. You see where we’re coming from?
Westminster Diocese has now officially stated that Cdl Nichols consecrated England & Wales to the Immaculate Heart of Mary:- http://rcdow.org.uk/news/cardinal-vincent-consecrates-england-and-wales-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary
WF
I posted a comment at that link and got a message saying my comment was published, but it’s not and there are no other comments. Am I missing something? (No smart alec responses, please and thank you all!)
I don’t know. I guess all comments are moderated – maybe they don’t have a full-time webmaster?
WF,
There are NO comments published, so possibly (1) they are not publishing any (2) mine is the only one submitted and not going to BE published, since I asked how England could be consecrated without being named and gave the link to this discussion (3) there’s a problem with the software. I doubt if it’s because of moderation because the message I got thanked me for my comment and said it would now be published, or had been published. I looked immediately, nothing there, refreshed the page a couple of times, and then checked just now, nothing there.
Maybe someone else would submit a comment, preferably find a way to praise the Cardinal (wonderful to read that the ceremony was so well attended, shows a great love for Our Lady among the English faithful…) to see if that one gets published. If not, we may allow the benefit of the doubt, and presume there’s a problem with the website.
I also can’t see how England could be consecrated without being named. It just doesn’t make sense.
I see that the voting poll on the website shows that over 80% think the Scottish bishops should follow Cardinal Nichols’ example and consecrate Scotland to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I wonder how many bloggers from Scotland think that’s a likely thing to happen?
Our Lady of Fatima came to tell us of the truths of the very basics of our Faith. She told us about sins and that many souls go to Hell especially through the sin of Adultery. That many are lost because they have o one to pray for them. In saying these things she was repeating the Words of Her Son Jesus of Scripture. I say Jesus of Scripture because in the Church today they have invented false Christs and Prophets.
But most of all she taught the children the first and greatest Commandment Thou shalt Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your Soul with all your minded all your strength.
WE cannot go to the second Commandment and make believe that this fulfils the first. There are many who love their neighbour outside the Church but do not believe in God. Our love of our neighbour comes or should come from the love of God within us that makes our good works heroic and indeed ready to lay down our lives for our friends. The is the true message of Our Lady of Fatima. I have not read Cardinal Griffiths prayer but I am ready to believe that it was modernised to fit the modern Church and the new Christ.
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