Comment:
Father Gruner, RIP, tirelessly pointed out that the only part of the Fatima prophecies not to have been fulfilled to date was Our Lady’s warning about the annihilation of nations – click here to read what, precisely, is meant by this “annihilation”.
Are we about to see – to our horror – the fulfilment of that prophecy?
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Comments (90)
And STILL the World Apostolate of Fatima and other ‘useful idiots’ are peddling falsehoods about this. What are they going to say if and when a nuclear exchange kicks off? No problem! Russia’s been consecrated! And they talk as if communism is dead. Try telling that to the folks of North Korea, or Venezuela, https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/05/03/its-2017-but-venezuela-looks-set-to-be-choosing-communism/#7ad962925cd5 or half a dozen other countries, come to that.
A recent 20 min video by one Carlos Evaristo was sent to me, by someone who is trying to ‘convert’ my views about Fatima. Evaristo’s ‘Two Hours with Sister Lucia’ booklet has been utterly discredited, although is still on sale around the world. He peddles the WAF party line, that the annihilation of nations that Our Lady spoke of is more to do with spiritual annihilation (i.e. loss of Faith). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fHmtZlbVbc PUBLIC HEALTH WARNING: Do not watch if you have high blood pressure. May induce homicidal tendencies. For antidote, please go to http://www.fatima.org
Westminster Fly,
As you say, Evaristo has been totally discredited. So has the WAF.
I’ve always thought this claim that Our Lady meant “spiritual annihilation” didn’t make sense. Our Lady never speaks in riddles, but makes clear what she means in very few words.
She spoke about a diabolical disorientation (to quote Sr Lucia) and we can see that happening before our very eyes, so there is no need for constant analysis and interpretation, so when she spoke about “many nations will be annihilated” she clearly meant what she said, and that annihilation is quite separate from the diabolical disorientation (e.g. morals turned upside down) although the two are obviously connected.
Some USA commentators are saying that they feared Russia was the enemy but now it’s North Korea, without realising that N Korea, China and all the other Communist countries are, in fact, “the errors of Russia spread”. Russia was first and it has spread Communism across the globe.
I haven’t watched the video yet, at the top of this page, but I look forward to it, as it will be interesting to hear how the Americans are reporting this first hand, instead of the BBC biased reporting.
Laura,
Excellent points. I’ve also heard American commentators saying that they feared Russia but now not so much due to the North Korean threat, but the threat warned of was precisely that Russia would spread her errors and that has happened, with the expansion of Communism – despite the false interpretation of Russia’s secularisation as being “conversion” and the number of other Communist states. No question about it.
WF,
Thank you for those links – very timeous reminders of key issues, most notably warning us against the falsehoods peddled by Carlos Evaristo and WAF. Thanks for that.
WAF is currently undertaking a tour of cathedrals and churches throughout England, with the Pilgrim Virgin statue, spreading its errors. Many, many people are going to these events. It’s of deep concern that for so many of them, the WAF version of Fatima is the only one they will encounter.
Westminster Fly,
That’s really disgraceful. The bishops are deliberately keeping people uninformed by using a group like WAF to give their version of Fatima. It’s a pity the Fatima Centre people couldn’t get some of their literature given out on the ground.
I take the point on the video about dealing with bullies in like manner, but the North Korean leader is clearly a madman. He has someone executed for slouching during a meeting!
Another report said it wasn’t just slouching but a slight shrug which suggested insubordination. Oh, well, that’s all right then, LOL!
I think we need to pray hard that this conflict doesn’t turn out to be the fulfilment of Fatima’s warning about the annihilation of nations. This looks very threatening, and could really be a turning point in the history of the world.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/01/world/asia/north-korea-executes-deputy-premier.html
Nicky,
“This looks very threatening, and could really be a turning point in the history of the world.”
To put it mildly! And this, in the centenary year of the Fatima apparitions.
The report about the execution of the “slouching” official, is chilling in the extreme. Reminds me of a documentary I saw recently where limited filming was permitted in North Korea. The journalist pointed out that the reason for the cheering crowds, laughing and waving in the presence of their (mad) leader, was quite simply that they were being watched and anyone NOT cheering and waving would be dealt with brutally later.
What a shocking regime. I’m torn between sending President Trump a bouquet of flowers for his bravery in standing up to this bully, or a begging letter asking HIM to send the North Korean leader a bouquet of flowers with a heartfelt “sorry – only kidding” note attached 😀
Nicky,
He executed a man for slouching at a meeting?
I’m stunned beyond words! Can you imagine how nervous people must be around this crackpot? Why don’t they gang up on him, it’s just mind-boggling!
And like all despots, he lives a life of luxury and excess, while his people starve: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/786559/Kim-Jong-Un-North-Korea-Donald-Trump-US-missile-nuclear-alcohol-trademap-South-Korea £305,000 on booze! The guy must be a complete lush.
I’m stunned, too, reading that report. Kim Jon Un really is mentally unhinged. If I were advising Donald Trump, I think I’d say to lay off.
I don’t know that is an option any more Josephine. An alcoholic psychopath with an itchy nuclear trigger finger is not one you can turn your back on. He’s not going to go away, he has to be confronted. Whether common sense will prevail and he’ll back down, I don’t know. One can only hope and pray. Which brings to me the prayers given by Our Lord to Sister Lucia at Rianjo:-
“My confessor ordered me to inform Your Excellency about what happened a little while ago, between our Good God and myself: As I was asking God for the conversion of Russia, Spain and Portugal, it seemed that His Divine Majesty said to me:
‘You console Me a great deal in asking Me for the conversion of those poor nations: Request it also of My Mother, while saying to Her often: Sweet Heart of Mary, be the salvation of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the whole world.
‘At other times say: By Thy Pure and Immaculate Conception, O Mary, obtain for me the conversion of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the whole world.’
I know that Fr Gruner added a list of other countries to those petitions when he prayed those prayers. We could do the same and add North Korea – as a matter of urgency!
Westminster Fly,
I take your point. I also watched the end of the video after posting my comment and I can see the other side – that if North Korea is not sure what the USA will do, they might back off.
I’d forgotten about that prayer for the conversion of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the whole world. I always wonder why Spain and Portugal were singled out?
I guess it was because Sr Lucia was praying for those two countries in the first place, before Our Lord appeared to her – (a) naturally, because Portugal is the land of her birth, and (b) she was in Rianjo, Spain at the time she was making the prayers. Also Spain and Portugal were facing the communist threat, which eventually came for Spain, although Portugal was preserved, thanks to the Consecration of Portugal to the Immaculate Heart by the Portuguese bishops.
Lily
You can’t “gang up” on someone by yourself. Who is going to make the first move knowing how easily he is upset?
I wouldn’t like to be in his sights if a swarm of midges landed on my face if a simple shrug means getting his dander up.
Cardinal Burke should get him to write to the Pope requesting he answers his Dubia.
Frankier,
I’ve said it before and I will no doubt say it again – you should be on the stage. Your reply to Lily is hilarious. Thank you for making me laugh – it’s been one of those days…
Editor
Would that be the first stage outa town?
I think there will be bloodshed on a global scale before the Consecration of Russia takes place. I think such a catastrophe will probably be the only thing that will bring the post-conciliar Papacy and Hierarchy to its senses. In 1980 at Fulda, Germany, Pope John Paul II was asked:- “What is going to happen to the Church?” He answered: “We must prepare ourselves to suffer great trials before long, such as will demand of us a disposition to give up even life, and a total dedication to Christ and for Christ… With your and my prayer it is possible to mitigate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because only thus can the Church be effectively renewed. How many times has the renewal of the Church sprung from blood! This time, too, it will not be otherwise. We must be strong and prepared, and trust in Christ and His Mother, and be very, very assiduous in praying the Rosary.” http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/fulda.asp
Westminster Fly,
I’ve never read that quote from Pope John Paul II before. That is really troubling. You are right to say we must “be very, very assiduous in praying the Rosary.” I feel re-energized to do just that.
Westminster Fly,
That quote from Pope John Paul II suggests a persecution of the Church and knowing the intent of Islam to destroy Christianity, I tend to see that as separate from the annihilation of nations. I associate the quote from John Paul II about “blood, renewal, Church” as to do with some kind of attack from Islam and the ISIS website did have a photo of their flag on the top of St Peter’s at one point, not sure if it’s still there.
However, this quote from Sister Lucia suggests war, maybe nuclear:
In her interview with Father Fuentes, Sister Lucy stated, “many times the Most Holy Virgin told my cousins as well as myself, that many nations will disappear from the face of the earth, that Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation. …”
I think already some nations have disappeared – Christians have more or less disappeared from the middle east now and whole swathes of the ME countries will need to be rebuilt, so I think we’re already seeing that warning being fulfilled.
Apparently Cardinal Burke has publicly called for the explicit Consecration of Russia a second time: http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/cr/perspective1065.asp
Westminster Fly,
I find myself getting irritated with Cardinal Burke. For one thing, he always says “Pope St John Paul II” which, IMHO, shows that he really doesn’t fully grasp the whole truth about the crisis in the Church. He doesn’t seem to questions the fast track canonisations or the fact that it was Pope John Paul II who did away with the most important part of the whole process, the Devil’s Advocate.
I liked Chris Ferrara’s conclusion. That was very helpful.
This North Korea business may very well be a distraction. Currently, other very dangerous flashpoints exist eg India, China, and Pakistan, as well as Russia, Ukraine, and NATO and especially Venezuela.
However, since scripture must be fulfilled perhaps re-reading Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 may through some light on the current World situation.
(Matthew 26:54 – How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?)
Gerontius,
Some distraction! North Korea looks very much like a more dangerous situation than all the other flashpoints on your list IMHO!
I don’t understand what you mean about Scripture. I looked them up and Ezekiel seems to be about the end of the world, but that’s not what Fatima prophesied. Once Russia is consecrated, we’ll have a time of peace in the world, so the annihilation of nations is not the same as the end of the world, to my understanding.
Also, the Matthew quote was when Jesus was stopping Peter from using violence to defend him, because the Suffering Servant in the Scriptures showed that the messiah had to be sacrificed, and so if Peter used violence, he would be thwarting the Scriptural prophecy of God’s plan. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how I read the situation. If you see a different meaning for the scriptures you mentioned, I’d like to hear it.
Josephine,
Thanks for your reply.
Here are a few thoughts which prompted my post. I hope they make sense.
Consider that the 1950-53 Korean War ended in an armistice, with neither side able to claim outright victory. Decades on, the truce is still all that technically prevents North Korea and the US – along with its ally South Korea – resuming the war, as no peace treaty has ever been signed, WW3 may indeed start there.
ALL SCRIPTURE, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, (2 Tim 3:16)
So, with regard to Scripture, Fatima, and Russia – the threat of various nations being annihilated, is possibly linked to the Ezekiel 38 & 39
“And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell confidently in the islands: and they shall know that I am the Lord. (Ezek 38:6)
Which brings us to Russia and the war of Gog and Magog.
According to current thought, Magog is that land occupied and settled by the Scythian people and is composed of southern RUSSIA and TURKEY, GOG being the leader of Magog.
Thus the name Moscow derives from the tribal name Meshech, … the Hebrew ‘Meshech’, is the source of the name for the city of MOSCOW.
With regard to the “Era of Peace*, ” The Close of the Age” or “The End of the World” Here is what Sister Lucia said::
“Father, the Most Holy Virgin did not tell me that we are in the last times of the world, but She made me understand this for three reasons. The first reason is that She told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle against the Virgin. And a decisive battle is the final battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Hence from now on, we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil; there is no other possibility.
“The second reason is that She said to my cousins as well as to myself, that God is giving two last remedies to the world. They are the Holy Rosary and devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. These are the last two remedies which signify that there will be no others.
“The third reason is that in the plans of Divine Providence, God always, before He is about to chastise the world, exhausts all other remedies. Now, when He sees that the world pays no attention whatsoever then, as we say in our imperfect manner of speaking, He offers us with a certain trepidation the last means of salvation, His Most Holy Mother. It is with a certain trepidation because if you despise and reject this ultimate means, we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Ghost. This sin consists of openly rejecting, with full knowledge and consent, the salvation which He offers. Let us remember that Jesus Christ is a very good Son and that He does not permit that we offend and despise His Most Holy Mother. We have recorded through many centuries of Church history the obvious testimony which demonstrates by the terrible chastisements which have befallen those who have attacked the honor of His Most Holy Mother, how Our Lord Jesus Christ has always defended the honor of His Mother.
Personally, I conjecture that It’s the close of the age because again, scripture says:
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc. 1:9)
Gerontius,
Only the Father knows when the end of time will come. We might be in the end times but that could mean the last one or two thousand years of the world. It doesn’t mean it’s imminent. Our Lady did promise a time of peace after the Russian Consecration so I think we’re here for a long time yet!
As some laud President Trump, as a God sent pro-lifer and noble leader of the free world, is it likely that same God would punish him, and his nation, as he leads us to a more moral world, in the midst of scandalous misreporting, and baseless attacks, on this principled Christian, twice married, adulterer and leader?
There seems to be inconsistency in seeking to uphold notions of his integrity with the coming wrath of God, and the chastisement and annihilation of his, and other, nations.
President Trump has saved millions of babies’ lives already through his pro-life policies, and that alone makes him a worthy president.
Even his opponents have acknowledged that the media are out to get him, no matter what he does, so that’s not exactly fair, is it.
If he was a pro-abortion president (like his predecessors) would you be casting up his private life, which I don’t remember anybody here defending?
People in the media here are going on about his “fire and fury” comment on North Korea, but, as quoted in the video top of this page, the three presidents before him said very provocative and inflammatory things in similar situations and nobody batted an eyelid. That’s not been mentioned on the news in the UK.
As the annual average number of abortions in The USA is 630,000 and many have still taken place it is difficult to see how President Trump has saved millions since January 20th 2017.
As the media show live reporting of him, and reprint his tweets, and his views on women, sexual immorality, are actual quotes, or recorded, it is difficult to see what aspect of his life they are misreporting.
As a Catholic is a bit of adultery, or just one remarriage acceptable as long as you are, on paper, pro-life?
Very early in his presidency, Donald Trump signed a presidential memorandum stating that the United States Agency for International Development could not give any funds to international groups providing information on abortions as part of their family planning services. This stops money going to these organizations. Given that the US government has been spending more than $607.5 million on reproductive health overseas, who knows how many lives the President has saved already, showing pro-life leadership.
To return to the topic of this thread – please tell us if you think the current conflict between North Korea and the US may be the beginning of the annihilation of nations, prophesied at Fatima?
Since 1917 we have had the conclusion of The Great War, WW2, and countless other conflicts, and, only in the past week, the anniversary of Hiroshima, and next month of 9/11 which unleashed other deaths and wars,and so no in so far as that “prophesy” must be fulfilled I don’t.
The abortion industry will find other funding streams, and his unrelenting attack on “Obamacare”, and his trigger happy leadership, will kill many other men, women and children. All of them innocent, and all who could be saved
Martin,
Obamacare is hated by most Americans, from what I can gather, as the politicians on both sides want to replace it. It was only one vote that prevented it being repealed recently. You obviously don’t like Trump, probably putting too much faith in the news coverage in the UK where they hate him. None of the USA presidents have ended their gun laws, so why you single out Trump for criticism, proves that you are letting yourself be brainwashed by the news hacks here, IMHO.
What I’m really interested in, though, is why did you put “prophesy” in inverted commas? Don’t you believe in the Fatima prophecies? I think we all hope that this danger of annihilation will be averted but it needs the pope to consecrate Russia – that’s what Our Lady said, if that prophecy is not to come true at some stage. The point about this conflict compared to the ones yo mention, is that this time there is a definite threat of wiping out nations – North Korea and Guam – so that’s a cause for prayer that it doesn’t happen.
The events at Fatima are based on a “Private Revelation” and are nor definitively held to be true, and cannot be raised to the status of a prophecy as found in Sacred Scripture, by anyone, anywhere. The fullness of Revelation ended with Jesus Christ himself – nothing can be added to it. That is not to say many favour those revelations.
In case you do not know the attempt to repeal “Obamacare” failed because The Republicans, who are in the majority, in both houses could not muster a majority. Very few Democrat would want to repeal it. (About 80% of Democrats don’t want any alteration at all.) In terms of overall public opinion, over it has over 50% approval.
Fatima isn’t a private revelation. There was a public miracle witnessed by 70 + thousand people, including unbelievers who converted on the spot, and there was a message for the whole Church. As Pope John Paul II said Fatima places an obligation on the whole Church.”
No private revelation does that. We can take or leave a private revelation but Fatima places an obligation on us, according to Pope SAINT John Paul II.
As for Obamacare – it will be repealed and replaced. There’s just a lot of politicking going on right now. The majority want it gone, so it will happen.
A Private Revelation remains regardless of whether or not it is witnessed by one witness or millions because time of revelation ended with Jesus Christ, The Word Made Flesh.
May I refer you to The Catechism of The Catholic Church 65- 67.
Further writing specifically about Fatima The CDF said in 2000:
“….. it now becomes possible to understand rightly the concept of “private revelation”, which refers to all the visions and revelations which have taken place since the completion of the New Testament. This is the category to which we must assign the message of Fatima. In this respect, let us listen once again to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church… It is not their role to complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history” (No. 67). This clarifies two things:
1. The authority of private revelations is essentially different from that of the definitive public Revelation. The latter demands faith; in it in fact God himself speaks to us through human words and the mediation of the living community of the Church. Faith in God and in his word is different from any other human faith, trust or opinion. The certainty that it is God who is speaking gives me the assurance that I am in touch with truth itself. It gives me a certitude which is beyond verification by any human way of knowing. It is the certitude upon which I build my life and to which I entrust myself in dying.
2. Private revelation is a help to this faith, and shows its credibility precisely by leading me back to the definitive public Revelation. In this regard, Cardinal Prospero Lambertini, the future Pope Benedict XIV, says in his classic treatise, which later became normative for beatifications and canonizations: “An assent of Catholic faith is not due to revelations approved in this way; it is not even possible. These revelations seek rather an assent of human faith in keeping with the requirements of prudence, which puts them before us as probable and credible to piety”. The Flemish theologian E. Dhanis, an eminent scholar in this field, states succinctly that ecclesiastical approval of a private revelation has three elements: the message contains nothing contrary to faith or morals; it is lawful to make it public; and the faithful are authorized to accept it with prudence (E. Dhanis,Sguardo su Fatima e bilancio di una discussione, in La Civiltà Cattolica 104 [1953], II, 392-406, in particular 397). Such a message can be a genuine help in understanding the Gospel and living it better at a particular moment in time; therefore it should not be disregarded. It is a help which is offered, but which one is not obliged to use.
The criterion for the truth and value of a private revelation is therefore its orientation to Christ himself. When it leads us away from him, when it becomes independent of him or even presents itself as another and better plan of salvation, more important than the Gospel, then it certainly does not come from the Holy Spirit, who guides us more deeply into the Gospel and not away from it. This does not mean that a private revelation will not offer new emphases or give rise to new devotional forms, or deepen and spread older forms. But in all of this there must be a nurturing of faith, hope and love, which are the unchanging path to salvation for everyone. We might add that private revelations often spring from popular piety and leave their stamp on it, giving it a new impulse and opening the way for new forms of it. Nor does this exclude that they will have an effect even on the liturgy, as we see for instance in the feasts of Corpus Christi and of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. From one point of view, the relationship between Revelation and private revelations appears in the relationship between the liturgy and popular piety: the liturgy is the criterion, it is the living form of the Church as a whole, fed directly by the Gospel. Popular piety is a sign that the faith is spreading its roots into the heart of a people in such a way that it reaches into daily life. Popular religiosity is the first and fundamental mode of “inculturation” of the faith. While it must always take its lead and direction from the liturgy, it in turn enriches the faith by involving the heart. ”
Every Pope makes generalised, affirmative, comments about every major International Shrine when they visit it, and you quote Pope Saint John Paul out of context. And in that very address Pope Saint John Paul specifically said, in relation to Fatima, at Fatima “The Church has always taught and continues to proclaim that God’s revelation was brought to completion in Jesus Christ, who is the fullness of that revelation, and that “no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord” (Dei Verbum, 4). The Church evaluates and judges private revelations by the criterion of conformity with that single public Revelation.
If the Church has accepted the message of Fátima, it is above all because that message contains a truth and a call whose basic content is the truth and the call of the Gospel itself.”
By the way on any thread, on this blog, where the Canonisation of St John Paul is mentioned it is usually also said “raising him to The Altar” is a sign the modern Church has lost its way, and abandoned Tradition, indeed “Lily” has said that only in the past few hours or days. It is therefore odd to quote him in aid of an argument against the actual teaching of The Church, which as I have shown, by quoting him myself, he upheld whilst in Fatima in the very speech you partially quote.
Martin,
You could not be more wrong about Fatima being a private revelation. You make two glaring mistakes.
1) you think there are only two categories of revelation – private and public, the public revelation which didn’t end with Christ, as you claim, but ended with the death of the last apostle. But there is a third category and that is public prophetic revelation and Fatima fits into that category. There is no new revelation – nobody who knows anything about Fatima would say that there was, so I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before saying more.
2) you seem to believe everything coming out of the Vatican on Fatima, and that is a big mistake since they are clearly suppressing the whole truth about Fatima. Even ~Antonio Socci, the journalist who set out to prove that Cardinal Bertone was right and Fr Gruner’s group were wrong about the Third Secret being suppressed, changed his mind during his investigation and actually proved Cardinal Bertone a liar on national Italian TV.
Read this – I’m sure it will make things clearer for you.
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr96/cr96pg15.pdf
As said in the most recent polling on The ACA (Obamacare) OVER 50% now favour keeping it, and 80% of registered Democrats, and clearly Republican Senator John McCain, and his colleagues, who thwarted the short sighted misquided attempt to repeal it.
And we’re supposed to care about this because?
Frankly, if I knew as little as you do about the most important event of the 20th century, Fatima, I wouldn’t be worrying about Obamacare, LOL! Read up on Fatima and leave the Americans to worry about Obamacare!
Fidelis
With respect a journalist, Socci (?), changing his mind about Fatima is not, in any way. akin to recognising what constitutes Divine Revelation.
The last Apostle bore witness to The Word Made Flesh, Jesus Christ, and only him. No apostle, whether the first or last, can add to that to that revelation.
Read again The Cathechism of The Catholic Church, Pope John Paul on Fatima, in Fatima, and The CDF 2000 Statement not Socci, or any other journalist, no matter how well intentioned they are.
Martin,
Fatima did NOT add any new revelation. That was my whole point. Didn’t you read my post?
You obviously haven’t studied Fatima and you’ve not had time to read the article I posted, so I regard you as both ignorant of the subject and in bad faith. If you read up on it, you would reach the obvious conclusion that we have not been told the whole truth about Fatima and like any intelligent person, Socci included, you would ask why. BTW, Socci is a much respected, top journalist in Italy so I wouldn’t dismiss him as of no importance.
You don’t even seem fazed knowing that the Secretary of State at the time, Cardinal Bertone, lied on TV!
Martin
Fidelis is right about the importance of Fatima and you are wrong. Fatima has nothing whatever to do with new revelation, it is rather a confirmation of events already revealed in apocalypse, as Sister Lucy clearly stated. Our Lady came to Fatima to warn the world that it was moving into the apocalyptic age foretold in Sacred Scripture. She revealed certain details about that scenario and gave the remedy for the Church and mankind to avert the chastisement that was looming on the horizon as a result of the world’s increasing sinfulness.
Everything she said at Fatima has come to pass. Just look at the crisis in the Church and the moral disintegration in the world. Something big will happen soon unless the Pope and the Bishops grant Our Lady’s request for a public and solemn consecration to her Immaculate Heart.
We speak of the North Korean situation, and rightly so. Communist China is supporting Communist North Korea much more than we are told, as is Russia, the so-called converted nation under Putin. If America is foced to act against North Korea then it is almost certain that China and Russia, friends with each other, will enter the ring on North Korea’s side.
Edward C
I don’t agree that Our Lady’s warning about nations disappearing referred to nations wiped out by war. Brother Michael of the Trinity addressed this question in his trilogy on Fatima and concluded, I believe rightly so, that the nations that disappeared were all those Eastern European nations that were absorbed into the USSR. These lost both their country names and their Christianity.
The Third Secret of Fatima deals specifically with a supernatural (spiritual) chastisement. This we see today in the Post-Vatican II crisis in the Church. Wars were dealt with in the second part of the Secret, not the Third, because even a global nuclear apocalypse is a walk in the park in comparison with the eternal loss of millions of souls.
Our Secretary of State has been quoted as saying he doesn’t believe there is “any imminent threat” from North Korea. And this from the same article:
“A history of communist aggression toward the United States since the end of World War II showed us that the communist giants — China and the old Soviet Union — have never engaged us in war directly. They, instead, operate though puppets such as North Korea and North Vietnam (and even “Islamic” terrorists who are more red than Islamic), and bogged down U.S. forces in never-ending no-win wars that exhausted our resources mentally, morally, and economically.
The greatest threat posed by North Korea does not come from its missiles — which have been impressive during tests but are probably years away from practical operational use. A more likely development is that the conflict between Pyongyang and Washington will escalate into a second Korean War that will look much like the first Korean War. That is, a UN-directed operation against a Chinese supported enemy, where our military’s hands are tied by UN bureaucrats and victory is always elusive.”
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/26672-what-does-u-s-north-korean-war-of-words-really-mean
I’m skeptical, however, about another Korean War scenario, and I have to wonder whether the NWO, which wants war between Russia and the US, will attempt to use this in much the same way that the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was used to ignite WWI – via a chain of events dictated by treaties.
All that aside, and back to Fatima, I’m also skeptical about the FC’s distinction between “nations” and “states.” They claim the word “nations” refers to “peoples,” but first of all, how could a “people” be annihilated when so many “peoples” – i.e. people of the same nationality – are spread all over the globe and not restricted to a geographic area? And second, the FC contradicts it’s own thesis in the penultimate paragraph:
“We do not know which nations will be annihilated from the face of the earth if the Consecration of Russia continues to be delayed. Our own nation could be one of them.” “Our own nation,” of course, being the United States, i.e. a state….whose “peoples” are, in fact, spread all over the globe….
That’s what just about everyone is saying, there’s no real threat, it won’t happen. But the fact is, there’s never been a weapon of war invented that wasn’t used. Here’s a thought from Martin Amis:
““What is the only provocation that could bring about the use of nuclear weapons? Nuclear weapons. What is the priority target for nuclear weapons? Nuclear weapons. What is the only established defense against nuclear weapons? Nuclear weapons. How do we prevent the use of nuclear weapons? By threatening the use of nuclear weapons. And we can’t get rid of nuclear weapons, because of nuclear weapons. The intransigence, it seems, is a function of the weapons themselves.” ― Martin Amis, Einstein’s Monsters
They will be used, for certain, it’s just whether this conflict will see them used that is the puzzler.
The scene in the revealed part of the Third Secret, shows a bishop in white, possibly the pope, under attack. He’s not likely to be a either North Korea or Guam, which is why I doubt if this specific conflict will end up in nuclear war.
Edward C,
“But the fact is, there’s never been a weapon of war invented that wasn’t used.
That’s a very good point. I didn’t know that, but I can imagine that’s true, because why would someone spend time creating stuff that is not going to be used at some point. The quote you supply says it all.
Edward C
As I have said in another comment above, the Bishop in White referred to in the Third Secret IS the Pope and the chastisement described has to be understood in the supernatural sense. It’s a spiritual punishment that is described in the Third Secret and that’s why they never released the text that accompanied the vision. It speaks of apostasy in the Church from the top down, and possibly even mentions a catalyst Council.
Athanasius,
Well, if the graphic description of the “bishop dressed in white” (“we had the impression it was the Holy Father” – previously they spoke only of “the Holy Father”) is merely symbolic, why not the vision of Hell? that’s what Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone more or less said at the press conference in 2000, so maybe they were right. You can’t pick and choose. The impressive thing about Fatima is that it is a very simple and clear message, with part 3 suppressed. One of the reasons given for its suppression was that it would terrify people. I don’t think that would be the effect of a warning about a bad Council or changes in the Church, to be frank. I also can’t see Our Lady playing word games like that. She is always precise in what she says.
I do agree that the suppressed part of the Third Secret is about the crisis in the Church but I think that it is obviously connecting the crisis in the Church to the annihilation of nations. We cannot just sweep aside Lucia’s words about Our Lady telling her and her cousins many times that many nations will be annihilated. If she just meant they were “all those Eastern European nations that were absorbed into the USSR” as you say, then they weren’t annihilated, just absorbed into the USSR. I haven’t read the trilogy for a while but I do not recollect Frere Michel dismissing the possibility of war, especially since Scripture is full of examples of God allowing wars to purge His people.
Edward C
I think the first thing we have to clear up is that Our Lady did not use the word “annihilation” to describe what would happen to many nations. The word she used was “disappear”. She said many nations would disappear. Brother Michael pointed this out in his work saying that various writers on Fatima had automatically taken the word “disappear” to mean “annihilated”. That’s why he suggested another possibility, much more in keeping with the Third Secret and the spreading of Russia’s errors, which is that many Christian nations would disappear from the face of the earth, meaning they would become pagan. It makes sense to me since the second part of the Secret already deals with global war.
I’m not ruling out the possibility of a global nuclear war in the near future, but I am utterly convinced that the Third Secret of Fatima tells of a much worse chastisement, the global apostasy from God and resultant loss of millions of immortal souls. If we read the account of the vision released by the Vatican in 2000 it is far more plausible in terms of high prelates losing the Faith than a group attack on the Pope by ISIS.
Besides this, Our Lady’s message at Quito for our times ties in perfectly with the Third Secret of Fatima. It speaks of a global Masonic assault on marriage and the Christian family that will result in near annihilation of innocence and morality, especially in the young. And what does she say about the shepherds of the Church during this time of assault? She says “those who should speak out will remain silent”.
Isn’t this exactly what’s happening in the Church today under Pope Francis? Under Lucifer’s banner “PRIDE”, the so-called gay agenda is rapidly reaching its conclusion. Homosexuality is everywhere pushed and promoted without the least shame, even to infants in primary schools while Christians are sidelined as bigots and homophobes. And what about marriage? How many proper Christian marriages now take place in comparison with the new thing of just shacking up? I am convinced that this is the real content of the Third Secret, the Pope and bishops silent while filth spreads everywhere. It also deals, I’m sure, with the assault on the ancient Mass and teachings of the Church within. A strong Catholic Pope and hierarchy would have prevented much of the tragedy we witness today, but, as the saying goes, “Evil abounds because good men do nothing. They will be obliged eventually to open their eyes but in the meantime the Church’s hierarchy, by their Modernist novelties, human respect and refusal to grant Our Lady’s request, are to blame for the loss of countless millions of souls. They wanted a heaven on earth with Vatican II and Hell is what they have unleashed.
Athanasius,
I think nations being annihilated or disappearing, is the same thing. I think that is to split hairs. Our Lady didn’t say “Christian nations” – that was the “possibility” which you say Brother Michael proposed but that is not what Our Lady said.
I don’t know what the big deal is, I really don’t. Throughout history God has punished his people with physical punishments as well as spiritual ones. He always exhausts every other avenue first, as in this case when he sent Our Lady with the rosary, brown scapular, first five Saturdays and so on. But there can be no doubt that the spiritual chastisement will be followed or accompanied, whatever, by a physical punishment if necessary.
Our Lord told Sister Lucia that if “his ministers” (the popes) followed the example of the King of France by refusing to consecrate Russia, then they would experience a similar fate – and that was a physical punishment. He spelt it out.
I don’t see the problem. I know that modern Catholics want to present a gentle God, a merciful God but punishment IS part of God’s mercy.
We are probably not going to agree on this, so there is no point slogging a dead horse. Thank you for the debate, though, keeps the mind working, LOL!
Edward C
I’m sorry to disagree with you, but disagree I must.
There is a huge difference between corporal and spiritual chastisement, the latter being by far the worst scenario. It is this latter that Our Lady of Fatima was referring to in the Third Secret. However, if you are one who fails to recognise the crisis in the Church since the so-called “reform” of Vatican II then I can well understand why you would want to argue the point for a corporal rather than spiritual chastisement.
Perhaps I’m reading you wrong in this but it does seem that it is you rather than me who is keen to mitigate the chastisements of God on a sinful and indifferent world. The spiritual chastisement is far, far worse than the corporal one and it is this, I believe, that we are presently undergoing in the global crisis of faith in the Church at the highest levels and by the almost complete eradication of Christ Our Lord from the lives of peoples. A nuclear was doesn’t even begin to compare in terms of destruction, though that may well come very soon.
By the way, Our Lady did not say to Sister Lucy “if his minister” followed the example of the king of France. He said “since my ministers have chosen to follow the example of the king of France, they will follow him also into misfortune” Our Lord was clearly stating that His ministers had already chosen their path. Vatican II and its aftermath is the result!
You say you think I’m splitting hairs between my interpretation of Fatima’s Third Secret and your intepretation, but there is a massive difference between the two and that’s why I cannot just let it pass. It’s the difference between the material and the supernatural. Too many Catholics of good will have failed to see the real meaning of Fatima, an understanding that is essential to the salvation of souls.
Our Lord tells us in the Gospels that in the last times there will be wars and rumours of wars but that these things are just the beginning of travail. He goes on to ask His disciples “When the Son of Man returns, do you think He will find faith on earth?” This question is the crux of the matter and the heart of the Message and Secret of Fatima. The Third Secret is primarily a spiritual chastisement that is currently afflicting the Church through Modernism and Modernist clergy. And because the Church is off her axis the world has gone mad and turned against God. A nuclear war may ensue but the real issue is loss of so many immortal souls. The shepherds have been struck (with Modernism) and the sheep have been scattered!
Athanasius,
I can assure you that I am not a modern Catholic in denial about the crisis in the Church. I am very well aware of it and I have read everything about Fatima that I can get my hands on, and that was why your quote from supposedly Brother Michel was a surprise. I have checked it out now and find that the Fatima Center article on this contains a footnote at the word “annihilation” . As you will see, Bro. Michel’s name is included in the list at the footnote.
http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/tspart2.asp
There is no doubt that spiritual chastisement is actually occurring right now, that is why we have so many scandals, bad priests etc. and a pope who makes me ashamed with every fibre of my being, every time I see him on TV, every time I hear or read his latest ridiculous words. I don’t agree with those who keep saying he is an anti-pope, but I can see why they think that. So, I am, truly, not denying the crisis.
The mention of punishment by another war is in the second part of the secret (which I think you mentioned yourself) and that was a general warning, not confined to any time-scale, but in all parts of the message Our Lady spoke about both spiritual and physical in some way, if I remember correctly. But the image of “a bishop dressed in white” in the revealed third part of the message does not make sense if separated from a physical attack of some kind. That doesn’t take away from the importance of the spiritual chastisement but Our Lady doesn’t usually speak in symbolic language, so I can’t believe that she would actually show small children a vision of Hell and tell them that is what they had seen, and then dictate that scene with pope and soldiers etc and give an explanation that this was a symbol of what was going wrong in the Church. That just does not make sense, which is why I believe it’s a combination of both spiritual and corporal, as you put it, chastisement.
I take your correction about the Rianjo apparition which I checked just now. Here is the two texts on that, which IMHO, seem to speak about suffering to come if the Consecration is not done, and it seems odd to mention the beheading of the King of France in the warning, if the warning is about spiritual punishment not physical:
‘Make it known to My ministers, given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, they will follow him into misfortune. It is never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary.’
In another text she wrote,
Later, through an intimate communication, Our Lord complained to me: ‘They did not wish to heed My request! … Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late. Russia will have already spread its errors in the world, provoking wars and persecutions against the Church. The Holy Father will have much to suffer.’
http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/rianjo.asp
So, there is Our Lord himself speaking of wars and persecutions against the Church if the Consecration isn’t done. I personally see the wipe out of Christians in Iraq and other places in the middle east as being a result of the Popes’ failure to consecrate Russia. I should insert “possibly” or “probably” there, since obviously I can’t know for sure, but that’s my opinion on it.
I’m surprised that you see anything controversial in any of this, because I’ve not met any traditional Catholics who see the third secret as revealed so far, as being symbolic. That’s a new one on me!
‘
Edward C
Thank you for your explanation, which is not really as far apart from my own understanding and the general view.
I was particularly pleased to read that you are in fact a Traditional Catholic who is as embarrassed by Pope Francis as the rest of us.
We’ll agree to disagree on the vision of the Third Secret. I still maintain that it is primarily spiritual in nature. Together with Our Lady’s accompanying words to the three children the meaning would have been clear to them, as it will to us when that text is finally revealed. I do not, as you suggest, consider it merely symbolic. It only apeears symbolic because the explanation that was given at the time by Our Lady has been silenced.
Anyway, as I say, we are not a million miles apart.
RCA Victor,
“Islamic” terrorists who are more red than Islamic.”
I disagree. ISIS have said clearly that they are aiming to defeat the Cross. They are aiming to defeat Christianity because they want everyone to convert to Islam. Not a lot of Communists want that, as far as I know, LOL!
I’m also puzzled by your comment at the end about “nations”. I checked a dictionary and it defined nations as, “a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory: ”
We know that there are peoples from every nation who are living in other places across the globe – any of us could be living in Australia but we wouldn’t want to see Scotland wiped off the map, even though we don’t like Nicola Sturgeon, LOL! . I’ve never taken the annihilation of nations to mean that every single person of that nationality would be killed.
I hope your secretary of state is right in saying that there isn’t any imminent threat from North Korea, but it certainly makes us think hard about the Fatima Message and prophecies, so that can only be a good thing in this year of the 100th anniversary.
Fidelis,
The point about Islamic terrorist was, I believe, that they are not only inimical to Christianity, but that they are also being incited and trained by Communists to increase their fervor to attack the West, Christians, etc.
My point about “nations” was that the FC’s distinction seems to be very artifical, or even false. A nation is commonly understood to be a state, a country, etc. – not “peoples.”
RCA Victor The Beloved…
I think you’re splitting hairs about “nations” – we all know what Our Lady meant, surely? Nations/countries/peoples will be annihilated. I don’t see the issue. As for Communists training Islamic terrorists – I didn’t realise Communists had written the Koran… I think you’re letting our terrorist friends off the hook, too easily, dear RCA Victor. And I’m wondering why that is…
Did somebody get out of bed on the wrong side today, one wonders?
https://slavesincstrip.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/the-wrong-side-of-the-bed.jpg
Or did things just not go according to plan?
http://salesperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Saw_Wrong_Limb.jpg
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Editor,
You’re a riot! Where do you find these pix, anyway?
Allow me to point out, on my way down, that it was the FC, not me, attempting to make a distinction between “nations” and “peoples,” etc., – a distinction which I think is false and contrived….and pointless.
As for letting the terrorists off the hook, not hardly! My point there was that Islam is being used by the NWO to help destroy the West, a sort of multiple pincers movement, if you will: communism, Islam, atheism, homosexuality, open borders…
Perhaps this video will make it a bit clearer, if not to facilitate a soft landing:
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zgmOoldDY&w=640&h=360%5D
Here’s another one that makes the connection even clearer:
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5ZNsDvby3I&w=640&h=360%5D
This is the absolute truth. North Korea, China, and, Russia are the ‘Big Three’ …
Fidelis and/or et. al,
Was following your exchange with Martin above, thank you for posting that link regarding the nature of Fatima. However, there is something about this I don’t understand. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to state that Fatima was a private prophetic revelation (i.e. all the messages to Sr. Lucia), confirmed by a public miracle (i.e. the Miracle of the Sun)? The conventional proof that Fatima was a public prophetic revelation seems to rest on said Miracle – but that was not a revelation at all, but, as its name suggests, a miracle, and there was no message included with it (unless I’m missing something, or, as Editor would say, sawing off another branch whilst standing on the wrong side of it…..)
RCA Victor,
I think what you’re missing is that the miracle was given as proof that the visions were authentic and the message was very important.
The first apparitions were not just to Sr Lucia anyway but to the three children. Only when they died, were the revelations to Sr Lucia alone, so that doesn’t classify as “private” IMHO.
I’m actually reading the False Friends of Fatima right now and getting more interested than ever in the whole message of Fatima. Here’s a quote from Pope John Paul II at Fatima on 13 May, 1982, quote: “The Appeal of Our Lady of Fatima is so deeply rooted in the Gospel and Tradition that the Church feels herself bound by this message.”
I’ve never heard any pope say that about any private apparition – that the Church feels herself bound by it? That confirms that Fatima is unique. It is a message not meant for a private individual, but for the whole Church. There’s no “new” public revelation, as that cannot be, public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, but this is a public prophetic revelation and the miracle isn’t the sole reason why it’s a public prophetic revelation but the miracle confirms it.
I hope that’s clear enough – I definitely do not think it can be called “private” because a private revelation is something the Church has always said we could accept or not, but if the Church feels “bound” by it (I think Benedict said something similar) then that takes it out of the “private” category.
Fidelis
Please don’t misquote Pope Saint john Paul. Nowhere does he endorse everything said at, or about Fatima, and in the very talk you purport to quote he says IT IS A PRIVATE REVELATION. (I won’t requite that section here).
Further, on every Papal visit to every major International Shrine the Pope, whoever it is, speaks of how some aspect of the revelation is in accord with The Gospel, which is why the Private Revelation can be recognised as authentic, and only because of it.
Read section 65-67 of The Catechism of The Catholic Church, the 2000 CDF Document on Fatima, written by Cardinal Ratzinger, at the specific request of Pope John Paul, and the JP’s entire Sermon at Fatima, and then please stop misrepresenting what Pope St John Paul said. Be honest, please.
I used to use the term “private revelation” myself when speaking about Fatima before I understood that there was another category. A modernist pope like John Paul II, who was obviously constrained by the Vatican lobby who are suppressing the full truth about the Third Secret, was never going to be allowed to speak openly about it but he does get some hints across such as where he speaks about the message of Fatima being addressed to the whole of mankind, and being especially for our century. That’s not the case with genuinely private revelations.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP820513.HTM
You also quote the new Catechism definition of private revelation but we know that definition. What it doesn’t give is the definition of the category of public prophetic revelation.
You also seem not to understand that a portion of the Fatima message is addressed to the Pope and leaders of the Church and so, having ignored or defied that part, they are unlikely to tell us so, just yet.
I can see that you don’t want to believe the whole of the Fatima message and so I am not going to convince you.
Martin
The miracle of the sun at Fatima was the first public miracle since the death of the last apostle to be predicted before it happened. It is also the only public miracle recorded as having taken place before so many people, who gathered to see it specifically because it was foretold beforehand. Also, every Pope since Fatima has spoken publicly about that particular event, about the Message and its urgency, etc., more than any other Marian event in history. John Paul II was shot by Ali Agca on May 13, 1981, the exact anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady at Fatima. The Pontiff did not fail to see the significance of the date. He wanted to make the public and solemn consecration of Russia in 1984 but was advised by other prelates not to do it. He scripted his own line into the prepared consecration prayer at that time to inform the world that he had not complied. The words speak for themselves against the false claims of Cardinal Bertone and others that the consecration is done.
At any rate, Fatima, because of its very public manifestation (message for the world and the universal Church), not to mention the importance given it by every modern Pope, can hardly be placed in the private revelation category like all other Marian apparitions. No, there is much more to Fatima and it is in complete accord with what is revealed in Sacred Scripture. There is nothing new but there is a warning to all that we have entered into the last times of the world, the apocalyptic age. Our Lady warns us of the fact and tells us what can and must be done to mitigate the terrible scourges that threaten a tired and indifferent world.
It is to greatly harm Our Lady’s Message and Secret to attempt, like Fr. Dhanis, to play it down as just another private revelation that we may take or leave at will. This is utterly false and dangerous.
Athanasius
If the Pope had been shot on May 12th or may 14th would Our Lady of Fatima turned the other way?
Are you saying that by Divine Providence and evil act was planned for the Feastday? That in some way the would be assasin was an agent of God to promote the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
Have wkileaks published the text The Pope actually wanted to use 1984, which he was unable to use? Who exactly revealed this to you?
One of his closest advisors. and collaborators, was 100% personally opposed to the Inter Faith Gatherings at Assisi, and told the then Pope so, and unusually for a Curial Cardinal did not make the trip. The Pope carried out more of these events. If he resisted the protests of one of his closest friends, and one he personally entrusted the C.D.F. to, what makes you think he was unable to do something you say was close to his heart?
He abandoned centuries of Tradition and altered the pattern of The Rosary – again against advice.
He lambasted Bishops in various countries and continents frequently – publicly and privately – often when he was their guest.
There is no evidence he could be forced to do anything. There is lots of eveidence to the contrary.
Fidelis et Verum
“If the Pope had been shot on May 12th or may 14th would Our Lady of Fatima turned the other way? Are you saying that by Divine Providence and evil act was planned for the Feastday?
What a very silly thing to say. Very silly indeed.
The simple FACT of the matter is that God permitted this assassination attempt to happen on the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima. Make of it what you will. But remember, Einstein said that “coincidences are God’s way of remaining anonymous.” Reflect.
And note that even the pagan media outlets, including the British Brainwashing Corporation (BBC) saw some significance in the lightning strikes on St Peter’s dome on the day of Pope Benedict’s resignation, sufficient to mention it and discuss it… A coincidence? Or was God, perhaps, signalling something? If, like the rest of us here, you recognise that the pontificate of his successor has not exactly been a rip-roaring success, you may take the view that God was certainly signalling something – akin to panic!
However, you’re on to something with this part of your post:
“That in some way the would be assassin was an agent of God to promote the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?”
God DOES use all sorts of “agents” to accomplish His will. Weren’t you ever taught that at school? Check out Cyrus in the OT and Mary Magdalen in the N.T. to see how God uses those we might least (in our limited human understanding) expect to accomplish His will. Heck, check out the innkeeper in Bethlehem, who allowed the young married Mary and Joseph to take shelter in time for the birth of the Saviour, in that poorest part of his home where the animals lived and moved and kept the house warm. It’s one of the many mysteries of Faith, how God can use the most unexpected people, and even evil to bring forth good. Not that we may ever DO evil – God does not will that, but evil done, God can and does use it to accomplish His will. Read the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis, where he tells this truth to his jealous brothers who had sold him into slavery – to paraphrase: you thought you were doing me a bad turn but God turned it into good and exalted me, that I may save many people.
I hope that’s cleared that up for you.
Not sure about WikiLeaks, but L’Osservatore Romano published the words which Pope John Paul II added, impromptu, to his 1984 consecration of the world, where he inserted a reference to “those people whose consecration you still await from us.” Click here to read more
You show that you do not understand the nature of the crisis in the Church, the role of the Vatican in it etc. So I recommend you read up on it all asap here
The examples you give are further evidence of your ignorance, with all due respect – I mean that, literally, not pejoratively, you clearly do not know the situation. The modernists wanted John Paul II to go to Assisi – at the time of the first event, Cardinal Ratzinger, then at the CDF didn’t want him to go and refused to go himself, but then, as Pope Benedict, HE organised the same thing! What a mess! Same with the Rosary. Only a traditional leading prelate would object to the new Rosary, not a modernist. Hence modernists to a man, hate Fatima.
I hope you will read up to grasp it all more completely, as you are rather confused now, which is a pity, with a username like Fidelis et Verum. That would be equivalent on a political blog of having a username like theresamayconservative and asking what could possibly have gone wrong at the General Election in June 😀
Do you really believe God, and his Mother, could act in such a way they would permit a man to be shot, and saved, so as to teach us about the authenticity, and importance, of a series of a set of apparitions, and Private Revelations? [Ed: point of English useage/grammar etc., no need for capital letters for “private revelations” – although correct English is the least of your worries…]
Editor:
(1) Nobody said any such thing. You are a troll, behaving like a troll… Gives a whole new meaning to the term “IT” which has now come to mean (drum roll) “Idiotic Troll”…
(2) For the information of all bloggers and readers – this “new” blogger/troll, Fidelis Est Verum is none other than that other “newish” blogger/troll, Martin.
I put a note to myself to remember to say something to both of them… what was it now… O yes, got it…
https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-say-goodbye-192.png
Fidelis Est Verum
“Do you really believe God, and his Mother, could act in such a way they would permit a man to be shot, and saved, so as to teach us about the authenticity, and importance, of a series of a set of apparitions, and Private Revelations?”
Well, Pope John Paul II certainly believed it and publicly acknowledged the fact. The difference between you and the Pope however is that he rightly only credited Our Lady with saving His life and sent the bullet that was removed from his body to adorn the crown of her statue in Fatima in thanksgiving for that grace.
You may recall that God the Father, with the cooperation of Our Lady, permitted God the Son to suffer agony and death at the hands of evil men on the Cross. Had they not permitted and/or cooperated in this historical event then none of us would have hope of salvation in His name and by the graces He won for us on Calvary.
But it seems you don’t know your faith very well, assuming you are a Catholic. It has always been the teaching of the Church that God permits evil and suffering in a way that is mysterious and meritorious. He causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust, leaving till the harvest time the judgment of who will enter heaven and who will go to hell. The evil permitted in the meantime tests the patience and virtue of the faithful, and strengthens them, while it heaps coals of fire upon those who perpetrate the evil. Original Sin is at the root of all evil in the world. Therein lies the mystery of the battle between good and evil that will continue till the end of time. In fine, God does not do evil, but He does sometimes permit it knowing that a greater good will result. In the case of John Paul II that greater good was that the Pope added further public testimony to the importance of Fatima and Our Lady’s intercessory power.
Fidelis Est Verum
“Do you really believe God, and his Mother, could act in such a way they would permit a man to be shot, and saved, so as to teach us about the authenticity, and importance, of a series of a set of apparitions, and Private Revelations?”
Do you believe that God the Father permitted, with the Blessed Virgin’s cooperation, His Son to suffer and die a terrible death on the Cross on Calvary? If so, why do you believe that God permitted with foreknowledge such a terrible thing to happen to His Divine Son?
There you give yourself away completely. You do not believe that Our Lady came to Fatima, gave a message for the whole of mankind, as your beloved modernist popes have all said, and that, as Pope Benedict said, that message imposes an obligation on the whole Church.
Doesn’t matter how it is defined, then. Even if you are right (and so far as I can see on a quick skim, you’ve only been right on Cardinal Kasper) but even if you are right that Fatima is a private revelation, here’s the key question for you….
Do you believe it?
I believe The Church rightly recognises the apparitions at Fatima.
Editor: you were asked if YOU believe in Fatima. I take that as a “no” then. Any normal person, no offence intended, well, offence intended, what the heck, would say “yes, I believe”. What if we all started the Creed with, not “I believe in…” but “The Church rightly recognises this creed”. Gerragrip.
RCA Victor,
Bishop Rudolph Graber, author of Athanasius and the Church of Our Time said in 1965: “A careful distinction should be made between personal revelation and those where the message is declared to be for mankind at large. The former can with equanimity be ignored. But the latter must be taken seriously. And Fatima belongs to this category.”
https://www.scribd.com/document/68332223/Fatima-is-Not-Just-a-Private-Revelation
Lily
I disagree with Cardinal Kasper on Marriage, but to follow your own logic, as he said “When someone who is divorced and remarried “repents of his failure in the first marriage”; if he cannot return to the first marriage; if he “cannot abandon without further harm” the responsibilities of his second marriage; if “he is doing the best he can to live out the possibilities of the second marriage on the basis of the faith and to raise his children in the faith”; and if “he has a desire for the sacraments as a source of strength in his situation,” Cardinal Kasper said, then “should we or can we deny him, after a period of time of a new orientation (metanoia), the sacrament of penance, and then of Communion?” you must agree with him, because unlike Bishop Ruber Graber, hr is not only a Bishop, and presumably you think Bishops can’t be wrong, he is a Cardinal.
Who do you accept, and this must apply to Bishop Graber, individual Bishop’s, can and do, express personal opinions that may be wrong?
Martin,
There’s a big difference between Cardinal Kasper the heretic, trying to authorise sacrilegious Communions and a bishop speaking about Fatima, LOL! Bishop Graber has not expressed a personal opinion, he has stated a fact, that a careful distinction has to be made between a private revelation and a message from Heaven addressed to all mankind. It’s a very obvious distinction and not in the least heretical.
Bishop Graber’s fact contradicts the C.D.F, and at least three Popes.
Martin,
It’s really not difficult to contradict those three popes! They were all modernists and all complicit in suppressing Our Lady’s message at Fatima, even while extolling it as being a message for the whole of humanity! Please read Pascendi, to get up to speed on the contradictions of the modernists. If you DON’T contradict them on something or other, you’re not a Catholic.
You really are ignorant of the fact that the Church is in crisis and that is key to understanding Fatima. You just don’t get it.
Read this book which explains the Vatican machinations on the subject of Fatima/Third Secret, and is available to read online – won’t cost you a penny, just requires some brain-power… and then, if you still don’t get it, we can’t help you. This blog is for serious commentators not trolls going round in circles.
That’s why your daft post asking if Our Lady of Lourdes is the same Lady as Our Lady of Fatima and the other “Ladies” in the various litanies is now in the trash bin. If you think you’re going to use this blog as your playground, you can think again, and again, and again…. Oh, and you can think AGAIN!
The Church in every age has, and will, experience a crisis of one kind or another. This age is not particularly unique in that respect.
I cannot agree it is through the lens of Fatima that we should look at The Church, now or in the future. Fatima is but one of many recognised apparitions, and its message only resonates in so far as it echoes Divine Revelation. The yardstick for judging The Church is Sacred Scripture, Tradition, the voice of The Magisterium, and The Councils of The Church.
In every age, God raises us for us living witnesses, and leaves us with the example of the Saints, He provides for us through The Sacraments, and The Ministry of The Church.
I am not qualified, at any level, to pass judgement on any Pope, and I imagine few , if any, are.
Editor: this crisis is unique. If you check out Church history, you will soon come to see that. I’ve no intention of providing lessons on the subject for you here, but this crisis far exceeds any before it, including the 4th century Arian crisis. In a previous post you say that the Church rightly recognises Fatima. Well, Fatima is a series of apparitions designed to warn us about the crisis to come: “diabolical disorientation” in both Church and world, but hey, far be it from me to take away your right to idiocy. If you prefer to spurn the Queen of Heaven whom God sent to warn us of the coming crisis, don’t let me stop you. The Fatima message “resonates” as you put it with the entirety of Catholic Tradition, scripture etc. which pope after pope has said, so you’ve no excuses there, Sugar Plum. As for your contrived humility in “not being qualified to pass judgement on any pope” – WOW! If ever there was a piece of evidence as to your lack of elementary Catholic sense, that’s it. No offence intended, yes, offence intended, what the heck… 😀
Martin
You mention someone following their own logic. What about your logic then?
Surely if individual bishops can and do express personal opinions that may be wrong then cardinals are not immune from the same.
In the case of Cardinal Kasper it is not that he MAY be wrong it is obvious that he IS wrong.
Even allowing for the far-fetched example that the cardinal has allegedly cobbled up, what about every Tom, Dick and Concubine that would want the same treatment?
It isn’t as simple as just penance and communion, you can go to confession and still leave the confessional without absolution if you still persist in committing adultery, although maybe Cardinal Kasper is running a wee private religion on the side to earn himself some pocket money.
I don’t think St. Padre Pio would have been as accommodating as Cardinal Kasper the Friendly Host but then, as an ordinary friar, who was he to judge.
I began my reference to Cardinal Kasper by saying I disagreed with him, but the whole Magisterium of The Church comes to a different conclusion on Fatima than does Bishop Graber et all.
Martin,
You actually disagree with Cardinal Kasper on adultery? WOW! I’m impressed! Talk about the lowest common denominator!
As for the “whole Magisterium of the Church” on Fatima – gerragrip. – are you for real? Give us the magisterial teaching to which you refer – I didn’t know there was one on Fatima. I await your enlightenment with bated breath (and an incorrigible grin)
i think you will find The Pope is Head of The Magisterium, and The Congregation for the Doctrine of The Faith, at the service of The Pope, and the wider Magisterium, is there promulgate, and defend, The Faith. In 2000 it published a definitive document on Fatima, the nature of its “revelation”, and revealed the meaning of the so called “Third Secret”. It is those same people who would ultimately “rule” on any disputed apparition.
Editor: heavens above. Are you having us on? Listen, I’m not going to be passing these posts through the moderation system for much longer. You’re about ready for the next stage which is blacklisting and then you’ll be gone to your cyberspace reward, so to speak. In 2000 the document to which you refer as a “definitive magisterial document on Fatima” was delivered by three cardinals at a press conference. Give yourself a rest, for goodness sake! Cardinals Ratzinger, Sodano and Bertone (Bertone, remember, caught lying on national Italian TV on the subject of Fatima) presented their version of the Third part of the Fatima Message and tried to close Fatima down. Thankfully, the Catholic faithful are not as stupid as they had hoped, with a number of obvious exceptions, no offence intended, yes, offence intended, what the heck… and so, the pressure continues for the full revelation of part three of the Message which Our Lady wanted to be revealed in full in 1960. I mean, I know it’s always possible to lose track of the time, but, hey, 57 years at the time of this writing? Gerragrip.
PS ever wonder why Sr Lucia and Pope John Paul II, both of whom had read the Third Secret, weren’t there at the press conference in 2000, to confirm that this was IT?! Away ye go, back to sleep, ya muppet.
Martin
You speak of the Magisterium of the Church. Would that be the same Magisterium that abandoned the ancient Mass of the Church (like the Protestants), introduced forbidden Communion in the hand, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, altar girls, guitars and tamborines, etc., etc? I think you need to read up on the exact circumstances required to constitute an authentic act of the Magisterium of the Church. Not every word and deed spoken by a Pope and bishops is to be taken as the voice of the Magisterium. It can only be so if it is in line with what has been handed down and does not contradit the previous authentic Magisterium. It’s more complicated than you know or understand, but sadly the reason why so many Catholics have gone along with the destrutive Modernism promoted by the Concilliar Popes and bishops. The same have downplayed Fatima since John XXIII’s infamous declaration of 1960. You may want to research Fr. Edouard Dhanis S.J. and the influence he had on all the modern Popes concerning Fatima.
I’ll stick with the declaration of Pius XII “The time for doubting Fatima is over, it is now time to act.” Pity his successors have failed to follow up on that call to action by the example of consecrating Russia tot he Immaculate Heart as Our Lady urgently requested. You can’t tell me that this disobedience is the voice of the authentic Magisterium of the Church. Bishop Graber was right!
Athanasius,
I agree with your every word there! Hear, hear! Peace is breaking out! LOL!
Edward C
I would agree with your agreement if I hadn’t made so many spelling mistakes in that post! I really must slow the fingers down on the keyboard to match the sluggish brain!
I should say that peace was never broken, we are two concerned Catholics exchanging forthrightly but charitably during a time of great confusion.
Fidelis and Lily,
Thank you, that is very helpful!
China says that if North Korea strikes first, China will remain neutral. If the US strikes first, China will come to the aid of North Korea. Either way, millions of lives hang in the balance.
Also, some speculate that the US will use Neutron Bombs. This type of nuclear device kills people with a lot less explosive damage compared to other types of nukes. President Bush (senior) dismantled the US arsenal of Neutron Bombs, but it doesn’t take much to retrofit an existing weapon.
Apocalypse, Chapter 11:13, “And at that hour there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell: and there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand: and the rest were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven”. Assuming the population of Jerusalem is evenly distributed, the future population would be 70,000 more or less. The current population of Jerusalem is 857,752 (2015).
Our Lady said that many nations would be annihilated. Could the example given above be an indicator of the reduction of the surviving population of the world in the time of Henoch and Elias? Inquiring minds want to know.
Steven Calovich
The greatest thinkers in the Church have wracked their brains over this question for centuries and we are still none the wiser. Apocalypse is not a Scriptural book that is easy to decipher. You’d be better not getting too caught up in its obscure prophecies which refer to different ages of the Church and different times.
Athanasius,
It’s no use giving good advice unless you have the wisdom to go with it. Obviously, you have the wisdom to go with your good advice. Don’t worry, I mostly avoid trying to decipher the last book in the Bible for the very reason you give.
Athanasius,
I’ll just add that Sister Lucia recommended reading Chapters 8 through 12 of the Apocalypse regarding the Third Secret. That recommendation from Sister Lucia seems to imply that there are prophecies in the Apocalypse that are not obscure. In general though, your advice is solid.
Steven
Yes, I’ve tried reading those chapters of Apocalypse named by Sister Lucy on numerous occasions and still can’t make head nor tail of them. What I have managed to discern from them is the battle between Our Lady and the dragon (devil) and how the latter drags a third of the stars from heaven down to earth. These stars are said by the Fathers to represent clergy, even bishops. So the inference is that the Third Secret refers to an apostasy in the Church that starts from the top down. Makes sense. I suppose that’s all we have to know from those chapters. I hope so because I can’t for the life of me fathom the rest. Maybe as things develop in the Church and the world it will become clearer.
Perhaps we are too concerned about the big picture of annihilation etc, that we forget that the big things come about because of the small things if indeed you can call sin a small thing. We are seeing the triumph of communism in the UK today. Russia was the first country to have a government that was atheistic and materialistic. It set up values the were totally against the law of god, anti-family abortion, sexual permissiveness and these values, these errors, are now all around us. The individual is free to destroy him or her self, and just look around at the unhappiness of so many young people growing up in families that are damaged or insecure and the growing number of single mothers through sexual freedom or divorce. We are the ones who are supposed to be fighting this. We are the ones who are supposed be overdoing evil and yet evil is overcoming us. Thisis there Fatima message. Our Lady did not ask us to enter politics and fight, she asked unto overcome evil by praying sacrificing and saving the Rosary. To fil lthe world again with the grace of God and breathe goddnessinto it again by invoking the name the Serpent hates – the name of Mary. And the more sinners we convert the more peaceful the world will become. Just do these little things which are part of the big picture , but can change the big picture. . So when you have finished reading this say the Rosary.
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