Why On Earth Do We Need Una Voce Scotland Or The Latin Mass Society?
FR JOHN BOLLAN, St Joseph’s Parish, Diocese of Paisley writes:
“I’m conscious of a dissonance in my own mind with regards to Mass in the Extraordinary form (sic). It appeals to me aesthetically… And yet I make excuses. Perhaps my principal concern is that this Mass should not be a vehicle of protest or nostalgia, but something free of such baggage. In other words, the Mass is no place for the grinding of axes…” Click here to read the entire article (and click on image right, to watch a Traditional Latin Mass on video).
Attempting to uncover this priest’s age (he is kinder in his remarks about the Traditional Latin Mass than priests of the older generation although unfortunately he uses the modernist name “Extraordinary Form” and appears blissfully unaware that there IS a need to “grind axes”) I discovered an interesting incidental detail: that clergy lists seem to be disappearing from some diocesan websites; on one site, for example, there is a list of deceased clergy but not the parish priests still alive and, we presume, well. Curious.
Anyway, while reflecting on Fr Bollan’s piece on the Mass published in the Scottish Catholic Observer, consider, too, the following piece written by Ellen, a member of the Catholic Truth team:
Ellen writes…
I was shocked by the article by Joseph Shaw, Chairman of the Latin Mass Society in England and Wales, published in the Catholic Herald, 1st September, 2017.
[Ed: in which he calls for “liturgical pluralism”: “Rather than throw every parish into confusion with a new top-down reform, it is better to foster the existing liturgical pluralism, which includes the reformed Roman rite…” [ i.e. the novus ordo – the new Mass]
Both the Latin Mass Society and Una Voce Scotland were established for the preservation and restoration of the Tridentine Rite of Mass. The chairmen of both these Societies seem to have lost sight of these aims.
I am really troubled by the hatred of the Traditional Mass that we have encountered recently from Novus Ordo going Catholics. The ignorance of these Catholics is appalling; they don’t see anything wrong in their going along with all the novelties introduced and which have in turn destroyed their true Sensus Fidelis.
What horrifies me is that the above Societies are spending their time and their subscribers’ hard earned cash on promoting heresies and on the cult of personalities. They have always, from their establishment, been too subservient to their bishops in the hope of a few scraps from the table instead of fighting for the right of every Catholic to serve God in the way Catholics have worshipped since time immemorial.
I think the time has come when all good priests who say that they prefer the Traditional Mass would stand up and say this Mass only. The parishioners are so entrenched in the new ways that they would require much education but with good leadership and encouragement it could be done. When the Cure D’Ars was first appointed to that parish, no-one attended Mass; he persevered and with his prayers and holiness eventually it became a great parish. Priests today must see that the real answer to their problems is the lack of that holiness. This can only come from the Holy Mass and Devotion to the Blessed Sacrament.
We, the laity who are aware and love the Mass must really rally round and not accept anything less. And if we truly love our neighbour we must try to encourage them to seek the nourishment they would receive from the truth rather than the insipid falsehoods peddled to them by false shepherds. END.
Comment:
When she speaks of the “the hatred of the Traditional Mass that we have encountered recently from Novus Ordo going Catholics” Ellen refers to various conversations we have had in the context of spreading the Fatima Message. The minute the issue of the new Mass is raised, so are hackles, and a tangible atmosphere of animosity and, yes, hatred quickly becomes evident – and this, we must emphasise, among the older generation, who should know better. Safer to recommend attending a Salvation Army service than a traditional Latin Mass.
It’s all about what we enjoy, what we find beneficial – the very concept of offering true worship to God doesn’t arise. It didn’t arise, either, in Father Bollan’s piece. His claim that “the Mass should not be a vehicle of protest or nostalgia” is only partly correct; martyrs, like our own Scottish Saint, John Ogilvie SJ, died in defence of the Mass. It was essential to protest attacks on the Mass during the Protestant Reformation (more accurately, “revolution”) as it is essential, lamentably, to protest attacks upon it now – in the form a new Mass created in the most worrying of circumstances and for the express purpose of making it acceptable to Protestants. Pictured below, Pope Paul VI with the six Protestant Ministers who actively contributed to the creation of the new Mass – click on the photo to read an article on the subject, and see Michael Davies: Pope Paul’s New Mass for thoroughly academic coverage of this scandal, in the context of the history of the Novus Ordo Missae.
Massey Shepherd (Episcopalian),
Friedrich Künneth (Lutheran),
Eugene Brand (Lutheran),
Max Thurian (Calvinist-community of Taize).
Father Bollan is right about the nostalgia though. There should be no need for “nostalgia” – the Mass for which St John Ogilvie and the other martyrs gave their lives should be available in our parishes on a daily basis; it’s a dead cert that there would be sufficient priests to make it available daily, had the Second Vatican Council never darkened the doorstep of the Catholic world. As it is, we have priests here today and gone tomorrow, because the new Mass does not nourish them – little wonder that it’s easier to find that needle in the haystack than a lengthy clergy list on diocesan websites today.
So, things have developed quickly, from the pleasure at having a new Mass in the vernacular, to hatred of the Mass that nourished Catholic souls, and raised them to sanctity for many centuries. How come Catholics have moved so far away from the very fundamentals of Catholic life and the truths of our Catholic Faith? And how come the organisations allegedly set up to preserve the ancient Mass for us, have decided to go along to get along, after all?
For, Una Voce Scotland (UVS) and the Latin Mass Society (LMS) appear intent on organising everything and anything except a simple Low Mass in the local parish; instead they are organising sung Masses, High Masses, you name it, with members of the episcopate, including the recent visit to Scotland of Cardinal Burke, invited for the purpose of drawing large crowds, and perhaps some kind of kudos. Who knows. What we do know is that some of us love the Low Mass, the peace, the reverence, the time to concentrate of the prayers of the Mass, the action of Calvary, but, it seems, that is not good enough for the Chief Executives who seek higher things, in a manner of (satirical) speaking.
Perhaps it’s time to replace UVS and the LMS … or, on second thoughts, perhaps not. Is it a case of “better the devil(s) you know…?” Or is there any need for such groups at all, given that they are all too ready, as Ellen writes, to accept the crumbs that fall from the episcopal table. Shouldn’t every knowledgeable Catholic simply encourage others to seek out a chapel of the Society of Saint Pius X, and go there for Mass, until they can persuade their Parish Priest to provide one in their local church? After all, it is to the sacrifice of Archbishop Lefebvre that the Chairmen of UVS and the LMS owe their living, so to speak. But for that saintly Archbishop, there would BE no traditional Latin Mass available to us in this “post-Catholic” Catholic Church… Below, to remind us all of that truth, is a short video clip on the subject. Then, share your thoughts…
Comments (120)
I don’t think we have any need for these organisations. They aren’t fit for purpose. The very fact that the LMS chairman called for pluralism and the UV chairman attends the New Mass at the most Modernist parish in Glasgow, says it all.
There’s definitely a cult of personality with these organisations. UV, for example, instead of promoting the Mass throughout the Archdiocese and beyond, is content to help create a “hub” for the Mass mainly in one parish, although there’s also a Sunday Mass in Sacred Heart, Bridgeton. I’m sure this suits the bishops. Not too much “damage” is done if it’s only one or two parishes with Sunday Masses! Of course, the parish and the parish priest then become standard bearers. I think the chairman also rules with an iron fist and seems to be the embodiment of UV, beyond criticism. This isn’t healthy. He’s also been known to exert an unprecedented degree of influence over priests and exercise an unjust and unCatholic level of authority.
Where is the apostolic spirit of these organisations? Does it exist? They create a ghetto and keep their heads down, begging for scraps. That is NOT going to lead to the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass.
The real issue I have with these groups is that I don’t think they fully accept that the Church is in crisis. They are happy to promote pluralism. I was shocked to see that, under the banner of “Traditional Latin Masses in Scotland”, Una Voce advertised “Roman Rite Anglican Use” (the Mass of the Anglican Ordinariate). So not only do they approve of the Novus Ordo, they approve of “any old Ordo”. It’s just not good enough.
Neither have I ever seen any real embracing of the message of Fatima by any of these groups. Certainly I know of priests affiliated with Una Voce who take the message of Fatima seriously, but I’ve never seen anything that suggests the hierarchy (or, in the case of UV, the chairman) of these groups do anything “official” to promote Our Lady’s requests. When was the last time you saw a Latin Mass Society or Una Voce Scotland Rosary crusade? Never. The key aspect of this crisis is that, whilst it is right to do what we can to promote and encourage the laity to attend the Traditional Latin Mass and the clergy to start offering it, the restoration will only come about when the crisis in the Church ends. And that will only happen when Our Lady’s message is taken seriously, and Her requests at Fatima are fulfilled.
Until that time, the SSPX is the only place to go. It’s not perfect, but it’s the only show in town. The Latin Mass Society have done some good in training modern priests to say the TLM, but that role should now move to the SSPX. It’s the only place where we will get the whole package – faith, morals and liturgy.
Petrus,
“Where is the apostolic spirit of these organisations? Does it exist? They create a ghetto and keep their heads down, begging for scraps. That is NOT going to lead to the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass.”
Hear, hear! I completely agree with that.
We need the Mass in our local parish, that’s how it used to be and it’s how it must be in the future.
People talk about Brexit being something to regret because they want their children to experience life as a member of the European Union, but what about those Catholics growing up who know nothing of their Catholic heritage? Those who have never encountered the old rite Mass? That’s much more important, yet you never hear a Catholic parent or grandparent saying that. They’ve become immersed in the new Mass and it is very sad.
Surely, the young must wonder when (if?) they hear of martyrs who died for the Mass – it’s so banal (or to quote Cardinal Ratzinger, “a banal, on the spot production”) so how can they make sense of any martyr giving his life’s blood to defend the Mass, when it’s all about getting involved and having fun? I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t be dying in defence of the novus ordo.
Michaela,
Thanks for quoting Cardinal Ratzinger’s famous description of the novus ordo: you’d think any priest seeing a top cardinal, who later became pontiff, referring to the new Mass as a “banal on-the-spot production” would be curious enough to look into the whole history of the Council and the Mass – a Mass created by Archbishop Bugnini (suspected of being a Freemason) with the help of six Protestant ministers -see photo above.
And don’t forget Father Joseph Gelineau…
“Let those who like myself have known and sung a Latin-Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists.” [Le rite romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus]. It has been destroyed [il est détruit]. [emphasis added] – source – Liturgical Shipwreck, by Michael Davies
“you’d think any priest seeing a top cardinal, who later became pontiff, referring to the new Mass as a “banal on-the-spot production” would be curious enough to look into the whole history of the Council and the Mass”
And yet that Cardinal who became the Pontiff did not have the courage/nerve or whatever to celebrate the old Mass once he was Pope. I am sure that will have spoken volumes to many priests too.
Deacon Augustine,
Spot on. The folks to whom I refer, however, not knowing whether they are on theological foot or on ecclesiastical horseback, wouldn’t think of that! Logical thinking to that extent is still a bit down the line!
Petrus,
You make very good points – in particular, your final paragraph is to be recommended. Not, as you say, that the SSPX is perfect. Far from it, certainly here in Scotland. But it’s the safest haven available while the crisis – aka Hurricane Vatican II – rages.
Great points on the LMS, you are right- It seems that all they want is big box office Solemn High masses…. their higher members of the LMS seem to think this is the answer to the crisis.
On the contrary- frequent low masses everywhere, everyday, all the time- that is the answer to the crisis. They think solemn high once a year is what we need, but essentially this is making Holy Mass into some annual operatic event which cannot possibly be repeated without their assistance.
People need to learn how to pray, the New Mass keeps people in the 2nd mansion of the interior castle. The Old Mass allows the devout to stretch their wings and fly, fly up, up into the third and fourth mansions.
FRMH,
Well said about the low Mass.
Solemn High Masses, i.e., Masses celebrated by a bishop with clerical deacon and sub deacon, are fairly rare. What seems much more common is just the sung Mass, or Missa Cantata as they call it.
The Missa Cantata is really just a sung low Mass with incense, but is a favourite for Catholics who think themselves either very intellectual or melodic. I tend to find that they fit into neither category and their sung Masses put ordinary people off the Traditional liturgy of the Church.
I have tried many times to explain to such types, priests included, that it is not our cultural heritage in this country to have regular sung Masses, which are generally unnecessarily lengthy and distracting, especially if poorly sung as the often are.
The best way for the faithful to assist at Holy Mass is to kneel in silent contemplation at the foot of the Cross, as with the low Mass. This is much more conducive to attracting souls back to Tradition.
Athanasius
I agree with you entirely. I much prefer the Low Mass.
Interesting all this about he LMS and its Masses etc. I encourage my children to attend same in Aberdeen but meet with some resistance. The reason why? Because these people are out of touch with the modern world. They expect young people, usually students, to walk to Torry (an hour’s walk), to attend an unreasonably extended Mass ( an hour and three quarters), to walk back to the university having missed their meal and hours of invaluable study time.
Why is this? Because some LMS devotees crave incense, chanting and all the trimmings? If they really want to promote the LMS why don’t they invite the young by, for example, putting up posters at the university and having “normal” low Masses?
Crofterlady,
I hope your children make a point of telling the UV representative up there in Aberdeen (where there are more church mice than practising Catholics), that they are struggling with the sung Mass and that they are likely to attract more young people if they offer a simple Low Mass. It’s sheer madness to focus on sung and high Masses at a time like this, when it’s almost impossible to get to a TLM at all and that in one of the most Protestant parts of Scotland.
I really do wonder about these people – the lack of common sense is just breathtaking.
It is the priests of the Sons of the Holy Redeemer from Orkney who celebrate the Mass in Aberdeen at the Sacred Heart church in Torry every second Sunday of the month. They also celebrate a Low Mass at 5 pm on the Saturday evening before. Its nothing to do with LMS or UV.
The Sunday Mass is a Low Mass with hymns. Any time I have every been there it has not been more than an hour long.
I imagine that the only reason it is in Torry is because the bishop of Aberdeen doesn’t want people going to it so he chooses the most out of the way church in the city of Aberdeen.
Crofterlady,
That’s ridiculous. A low Mass is all that is required for Sunday obligations. Students won’t keep going if they have to give up so much time. These people running the Latin Mass groups need to get into the real world, if they want to encourage the young to attend Latin Masses. Why don’t your children get up a petition? If the “chairmen” realise they’re going to lose a lot of students, they might think again.
Exactly.
I only started to go to the Mass of my youth when it started in my Parish Last year . When the N.O. Mass came in at first in the 60s casting my mind back lots of us were not happy with it . Especially when it came to say the Our Father and it was plain to us all ( back then ) that that part of the Mass was highly Portestantised. Now of course I go to the N.O. Mass on Sunday and T.L.M. which takes place in my Parish on a Thursday. Our young Parish Priest has said he loves saying the T.LM. I just wish more would attend of course the difference in reverence is night and day . I know ED that you already put out a flyer for our Mass which am grateful. If it’s not to much could you do so again PLEASE. Saint Mary’s Cleland. Motherwell. Traditional Latin Mass . Every Thursday night 19.00 . Seven o Clock start . Would love to see some of you their. God Bless .
FOOF,
Catholic Truth produce another flyer? For your Thursday Mass? You kidding?
No. Emphatically no. We’re not obliged to attend Mass on Thursdays. Nor Monday-Saturday. It’s SUNDAY that is the obligatory Mass day. Your PP should stop pussy-footing around and announce that heretofore, there will be a Sunday TLM.
This is how UV and the LMS have survived for years; when permission had to be sought for an “indult” Mass, the Bishop gave permission but only for a weekday Mass and then the powers-that-NOT-be in UV and the LMS, gratefully accepted that crumb.
Now, however, Pope Benedict has released priests from requiring permission (never really required anyway) so there is no excuse for priests who claim to want to offer the TLM, to refuse to offer it on Sundays.
Over to you, FOOF!
I’m at a disadvantage regarding most of the opinions expressed in the lead article about the efficacy of UV Scotland and the LMS, since I have a rather large body of water – not to mention half the USA – separating me from Bonnie Scotland – however, I will comment on Fr. Bollan’s perspective.
He admits he “makes excuses,” but fails to identify his anxiety over “protest” and “nostalgia” as yet another excuse. In fact, those are red herrings as well as excuses, and an emasculation of his priestly vocation due to a preoccupation with human respect. The TLM as “protest” merely repeats a previous falsehood by the female author of the “Separating the Mass” thread: that there is somehow a “liturgy war” going on, caused or exacerbated by a preference for the TLM, which should be avoided. This is yet another attempt to undermine the TLM by politicizing it. It is also a roundabout way to claim that the TLM harms “unity,” or is “divisive.”
As for “nostalgia,” that trick popped out of the bishops’ modernist toolboxes years ago, along with “divisive,” in their disgraceful attempt to discredit growing interest in Tradition by equating it with a mere nostalgia for old TV shows and old popular tunes. How does “nostalgia,” one might ask, explain that SSPX chapels, for example, are bursting to the gills with young people and young families who never knew the TLM before? Perhaps the souls born after 1980 or 1990 were floating around in Heaven in 1965, shaking their heads as they watched the nefarious activities of Bugnini’s Consilium? Now there’s some novel theology for you!
Father also states that he prefers the TLM “aesthetically.” What about spiritually and theologically? What about the priest as alter Christus vs. the priest as “Presider”? A rather shallow preference, methinks, which betrays a poor or even nonexistent understanding of the theology of the Mass.
There is apparently a new flag being run up the modernist flagpole in certain parts of the world, namely, an attempt to attach negative baggage to the TLM. I hope UV Scotland and the LMA are not going to salute. Has someone decided this will be useful in paving the way for a “new, new, new mass” which Protestants may attend?
RCA Victor,
Every word a jewel – you have highlighted the shallow thinking and “theology” of contemporary clergy, sad to say.
It just amazes me that, living through this time of crisis in the Church, priests born into the mess don’t study the history of the novus ordo, read the warning of Pope Pius V against changing the Mass and then come to a realisation that they have been conned: ” Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act [change the Mass], he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”
Given at St. Peter’s in the year of the Lord’s Incarnation, 1570, on the 14th of July of the Fifth year of Our Pontificate. Click here to read Quo Primum in full
If it’s not patently obvious now that we are incurring the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, then wake me up when it IS obvious.
Editor,
Not sure this will work, but…
https://media.giphy.com/media/cG5lWm5GKFyww/giphy.gif
RCA Victor
Priceless – that’s SO like me, it could be a photo!
Here’s a report in the SSPX news bulletin about the Consecration of Scotland. Concluding paragraph…
“While we cannot but rejoice at these initiatives full of piety and a spirit of faith, the victory of Our Lady can only come with a real return to Tradition and to the supernatural means that are part of the treasure of the Church, beginning with the restoration of the Catholic Mass, in its integral and fruitful rite, bearing the graces necessary to obtain the desired goal. He that wills the end wills the (right) means.” Source – SSPX News
It’s definitely true that before the new Mass came into use, there were fewer scandals and I can’t help wondering if there is a connection. It looks like this is another one about to break.
https://zenit.org/articles/holy-see-recalls-priest-from-nunciature-in-washington/
I think the SSPX report is correct – “the victory of Our Lady can only come with a real return to Tradition and to the supernatural means that are part of the treasure of the Church, beginning with the restoration of the Catholic Mass.”
I think I’m right in saying that Fr Bollan is involved in teacher training, so it’s hardly surprising that he’s not fully on board with the Latin Mass. As I’ve learned through reading the blogs here on Catholic schools (not to mention listening to young relatives who seem to have learned nothing about the faith from their religion lessons) there’s something far wrong with the religious education of the teachers in Catholic schools. We should pray for Fr Bollan as he does seem “kinder” in his comments about the Mass than some other priests (such as Mgr Loftus, LOL!) So he may come to see its value eventually.
I’ve just watched the Remnant video again – I could watch it over and over! Archbishop Lefebvre was a living saint, no question, and his words showing confidence that Rome will one day return to Tradition are so moving. When that happens, and when the Mass is restored in parishes again, it will be thanks to him, not to Una Voce Scotland or the Latin Mass Society, who are even as we speak, compromising with “the modernist takeover of the Mass” to quote Michael Matt on the video. The Archbishop held firm to the end, unlike UV and the LMS.
I see St James’ church in Paisley is on the market for £125,000, a snip for such a building.
Why don’t the SSPX make a bid, which would solve their problems. Surely the sale of their existing church building would recoup the money spent.
It would probably be easier to reorder to suit the Traditional Mass than an existing Catholic
church would.
When the SSPX tried to buy an Anglican church down south, Manchester, I think, it was scuppered with the help of the local bishop. So, I don’t know that anyone would get to sell them a church building, except under cover, i.e. if a lay person posed as the buyer.
Nicky
I don’t think the Church of Scotland would listen to any Scottish Catholic bishop if an offer came in for this church.
Especially if they knew that the prospective purchasers were at loggerheads with the Scottish bishops.
Anyway, you can’t succeed in anything by placing barriers in front of you.
That’s good, if the C of S would sell and not worry about the bishops.
Paisley is not difficult to get to, so maybe the SSPX are in with a shout, if one of their regular adherents passes on the good news.
Nicky
Agreed!
Frankier/Nicky,
Paisley? You kidding me? That’s a whole train station from Glasgow, and I once got lost going to Paisley on the train, long story, don’t ask…
PS I hope the priests don’t see this or they’ll go after that church… and pay handsomely over the asking price, as well! 😀
Editor
The organ alone in this church would be worth as much as the asking price, or maybe a lot more. It is a listed building with all the financial help that goes along with it. Some would say that it is too big: is that not better than turning people away from one that is too small? Surely the ambition should be to fill it. Get wee Fergus McCann to join the congregation and his ideas would soon fill it. He was laughed at by the future Lord Provost of Glasgow when he built a 60,000 seater stadium when the average gates were around 20.000.
It may be another whole train station for you (but less of a climb) but what about it being two whole train stations less for someone like me who isn`t a teenager like yourself?
Anyway. I just happened to read a few times how the existing church is too small, no Scottish bishop would sell an empty Catholic church, problems with walking, parking, etc. and thought I would forward a suggestion.
Sorry!
Frankier,
I had a look and the building looks amazing – it would indeed be an upgrade but I believe the Society are keen to remain in / around Glasgow City centre, for “catchment” purposes. I think that is reasonable for people with significant journeys, travelling from (eg) Perth, Cumbernauld, Wishaw,etc.
(That said, there is no reason why the Society couldn’t snap up the building in order to expand in Scotland, while keeping St Andrews on).
I know the former Prior once viewed a CofS for sale in the Carntyne area – not far from the City Centre, on the east side – but he said he discovered the building was actually in very poor condition and would require a lot to be spent, something which was not obvious from the sale adverts.
I noticed that Mosspark parish church is also for sale, that is nearer the City Centre (Bellahouston Park), but the asking price is about double that of St James. This one is very close to where the St Andrews Sacristan lives, so I am sure he would be keen on it!
Of course, there is no “ideal option” and every possibility will have pros and cons.
It cant be too long before the SSPX decide to acquire a new building for the Glasgow congregation – with the rate the CofS is declining, it is advertising new Churches for sale every month. If I was the SSPX Prior, I would have my eye on the large CofS buildings on Bath or St Vincent Street, both of them are close to the current location and its inevitable that both will be on the market – eventually.
Its very unlikely, but given the Archdiocese will soon have a surplus of buildings, you would think they would roll the paltry congregations of both St Pats Anderston and St Columbas Hopehill road in together, and then sell the spare building to the SSPX.
St Columbas has always been my hope for the Society. Close to St Andrews, (it can be seen from the hill St Andrew’s is on), the Dominicans recently pulled out of it. It has a small congregation. James McMillan used to run the music side of things, before moving back to Ayrshire. I heard recently that the Archdiocese was relying on the Holy Ghost Fathers from Carfin to serve the Church. Fr Ambrose, an African priest, had taken over.
I don’t know if this is a permanent set-up or a stop-gap, but I think the latter because I know the Holy Ghost Fathers role in Motherwell Diocese is to act as Auxiliaries, filling in for priests on holiday or ill etc.
But as I said to Editor recently, I think the SSPX priority at the minute is a new chapel for their School Campus in England. This is what all the contemporary fundraising drives are for. Plus, in recent years the magnificent Landsdowne Church (Great Western Rd) has become a secular theatre, and the Church next to the new Sikh temple was bought by the part of the St Georges Tron congregation which split from the CofS.
If a new Glasgow building was really a priority for the Society, surely they would have been in for one of these? (The Landsdowne Church in particular would have been a dream).
Gabriel
Paisley is ten minutes drive from Glasgow along the M8 and 10 minutes on the train.
I vote for St James’ in Paisley!!!!
Petrus,
I would estimate the drive from the current chapel at ~20 mins and ~45 mins* at rush hour.
(*The latter time is how long it takes my wife to get home from work in Paisley Hospital, although granted we are now about 3 miles away from St Andrews as the crow flies).
I think St James would work for sat / sun masses, but I think it would difficult for people to get there for the evening week day masses.
Just my 2p – of course there is the option of adjusting mass times etc.
Certainly it looks like a very fine building and is worth consideration. Here are the particulars:
http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42951/COS_St_James_Church_Paisley_4p.qxp_Layout_1.pdf
Gabriel,
Yes, you are probably right about the timings. I was having a bit of fun because it would suit me better if there was a chapel in Paisley.
What I would say, however, is that I think that particular church is too big. It’s absolutely massive, almost like a Cathedral.
Gabriel,
I’ve been told that it’s the policy of the SSPX (USA District) to avoid establishing chapels in inner cities, or in the midst of crowded cities, because of higher spiritual dangers vs. the countryside (that is, there are allegedly more demons in the cities, and therefore a greater danger to both priests and faithful).
Anyone know if that policy is in force in the UK District?
RCAVictor,
Interesting, I do not know if there is a similar policy in the UK.
The SSPX Chapels I have been to in the UK – Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool – have all been in, or very close to, City Centres.
One of our district newsletters once said the SSPX would “very much like” a large Church in central London. I don’t know why that sticks in my head (!?), perhaps because the particular issue also covered a visit by Fr Niklaus Pfluger, who was pictured being shown around London.
But I recall a member of our Glasgow congregation saying that, at the time the current Chapel was purchased, the priest “didn’t want” the large townhouse next door (presumably for sale at the same time). Apparently this was due to a perception that it would be noisy.
In truth, while I would love it if the Glasgow congregation got a bigger Church, I think it’s far more likely that a 2nd Sunday mass would be offered as a solution, if the over-crowding reached boiling point.
Well Gabriel Syme, I think St. Andrew’s has indeed reached boiling point! We were there recently and we had to stand outside in the rain. It was alright for my husband and I but it was hard on the children, especially the baby. So we’ll give it a wide berth in future unless we’re desperate! At least there’s breathing space at Balornock and other locations.
Helen,
I’ve never known anyone to have to stand outside, in any weather. If it was indeed that busy, why not just go in the hall, rather than stand in the rain? Sorry, but I don’t get that.
I do understand that the space issues will be an inconvenience and other places are easier. However, given everything that’s been said in the editor’s excellent introductory piece, Ellen Ward’s wise words and spot on observations, I think it’s worth either arriving a little bit earlier to ensure you one gets a seat in order to experience the whole package. You won’t get that at Balornock. Sorry.
RC Victor ,
I laughed when I read this. What absolute nonsense! Sounds very much an “American” thing. As Gabriel has said, most of the SSPX chapels I have been to have been in, or around, the city centre.
Petrus,
Probably! I only know of one case where a Society inner city chapel was relocated to the countryside, and that was here! But only because the land was donated by a parishioner, and so was most of the money!
RCA Victor,
I think that’s understandable. If only we had some rich donators – maybe Athanasius will part with some of his riches and buy us a new church! He wouldn’t miss a couple of hundred grand!
Petrus
“…maybe Athanasius will part with some of his riches and buy us a new church! He wouldn’t miss a couple of hundred grand!”
Surely you meant to say “he wouldn’t mind a couple of hundred grand”?
Believe me, Petrus, I would buy the SSPX a chapel in Glasgow if I had the money to do so, but it would not be another old Protestant kirk building and it certainly wouldn’t be in Paisley!
Athanasius,
Has anything good ever come out of Paisley (apart from my wife and children)?
Not sure, Petrus. I do remember the ugly Paisley Pattern that became the rage back in the 80s.
My brother-in-law, an alarm engineer, was in Paisley a number of years ago on a job in or around the infamous Ferguslie Park, named as Scotland’s most deprived estate. When he came out of the premises he was working in he saw some young lads trying to steal his car. The laugh was that they hadn’t tried to hot wire the ignition. No, they were pushing it away! Absolutely hilarious!
Athanasius
You should tell your brother-in-law to get a handbrake fitted. Or even an anchor.
Athanasius
I worked on the building of many schools and hospitals in Paisley and Renfrew as well as in Ayrshire with many Ferguslie Park boys and they were great lads. Good workers and brilliant sense of humour. Likewise those from Greenock. I sorely miss their company and their patter.
You got what you saw with them.
A number of Irish settled there too.
I’d sooner mix with those types than the “respectable” rogues in the professions and in politics that can’t keep their greedy snouts out of the trough.
Frankier
I don’t doubt for a second that a lot of Paisley people are great to know and work with. The problem is Paisley has a larger than average element of less pleasant characters residing within its borders, many from Ferguslie.
I liked your comment about the anchor. Hilarious!
Athanasius,
Watch it! I like the Paisley pattern. And so – apparently – do the many folks who have kept it in business right up to and including the present day – it’s no merely 80’s phenomenon. You stick to commenting on pin-striped suits and leave the fashion gurus among us to comment on garments of a Paisley pattern design 😀
I’d also beware of painting everyone in Paisley with the “Ferguslie Park” brush. In any case, just because a particular area has a bad reputation (usually due to social deprivation etc) doesn’t mean everyone who lives there is a bad guy or guy-ess… I remember saying, when I was a Legionary of Mary visiting homes in one of THE worst areas (by reputation) in Glasgow, which I won’t name, that there were many people living there who were the salt of the earth. Beat the soulless snobs I’d encountered in some of the more “desirable” areas, any day. Again, though, “desirable” by reputation – not that I ever desired, nor do I now desire, to live there.
I did laugh at the attempt to steal the car. Reminded me of a report in the Glasgow Herald about a group of kids who broke into an off-licence and pinched a load of drink. Trouble was, they picked the first night of the year when we had a heavy snowfall and the cops just followed the footprints in the snow from the off-licence to the house where the culprits were caught with their loot. As the defence solicitor later said it court, understatement of the year: “it was an ill thought out plan…” 😀
So, you see, we have numpties in Glasgow as well! Probably, though, from one of the better – “desirable” – residential areas!
Athanasius
Surely you meant to say “he wouldn’t mind a couple of hundred grand”?
Hilarious! 😀
There’s a big patch of empty ground near the Clyde, where the old Daily Record office used to be.
In my weaker moments I dream of a magnificent SSPX Church being built there, so grand it would shame the Catholic Cathedral up river.
But unfortunately someone will need to win the lottery first!
Gabriel Syme
“There’s a big patch of empty ground near the Clyde, where the old Daily Record office used to be.
In my weaker moments I dream of a magnificent SSPX Church being built there, so grand it would shame the Catholic Cathedral up river.”
What a lovely dream! I sometimes dream such things when I see suitable medium-sized Catholic churches in and around the city. Oh well, I suppose we’re all entitled to dream.
Frankier
Paisley would be a nightmare place to buy a church due to its location, especially for those travelling from the East side of the country. Imagine trying to get out there at rush hour!
No, a new church would have to be somewhere close to where we are now in the City, and hopefully a Catholic church. I’m sick to death of old Protestant churches that cannot, depsite best efforts, be made to look fully Catholic.
The one we’re in right now (St. Andrew’s) is a cold, dull and uninspiring church. It lacks the warmth, beauty and decor older generation Catholics grew up with and remember, and the problem is made worse by the general dilapidated state of the property. We can’t complain, though, we’ve had thirty years out of it. But time to move on now to a proper Catholic chapel with hopefully better parking facilities and ease of access for the elderly and disabled.
Athanasius,
I think you are right. Could you imagine an evening Mass for a Holiday of Obligation? It can take about 20 minutes to get over the Kingston Bridge and 40 minutes to get by Braehead. It would be a nightmare.
That particular church in Paisley would be unsuitable. It’s huge ! I think it would be a nightmare in the winter. It’s dull, dreary and soulless. I also agree that a new church should be in the centre of Glasgow. St Columba’s Church, as Gabriel said, would be good.
Athanasius,
I’m sick to death of old Protestant churches that cannot, depsite best efforts, be made to look fully Catholic.
Aye, those erroneous u-shaped balconies (like in edinburgh) always betray an ex-kirk.
If not Catholic, I presume something like an ex-methodist or ex-episcopal Church would be the best fit?
There is a wee methodist church on woodlands road, (just across the M8 from us), I always examine it like a vulture when walking past.
Woodlands road also features an episcopal church (which seems in good health, alas) and a free presbyterian church.
(While the internal architecture of the latter would not be ideal, it would be very satisfying to take that over, given their fierce anti-Catholicism.)
I always wonder if it might pay dividends to make speculative offers on suitable buildings, even if they are not advertised as being for sale.
better parking facilities and ease of access for the elderly and disabled.
Yes these are important considerations, access to the current Church is very difficult for the elderly and disabled. And the fact its on top of a hill makes it difficult for the unfit – like me!
Or, Gabriel Syme, Petrus and Athanasius,
We could ask the SSPX just to follow the example of the LMS & UVS and go in for “liturgical pluralism” – then we’d be welcomed into any church in the Archdiocese of Glasgow. One week TLM, next week NO, next again Roman Rite Anglican Use etc Simple!
Editor,
Can we have a “clown Mass”? That would take things to a more enlightened level!
Petrus,
For readers who may think “clown Masses” don’t exist, here’s one short clip – but let’s leave it there and assume that even the most liberal of UK Catholics in UVS and the LMS wouldn’t approve of this particular “liturgical pluralism”… Shows the danger, though, of relativizing the liturgy…Who is to say that this sort of popular “liturgy” isn’t helping someone to rise to new spiritual heights…
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgKweu0ZWVs&w=1131&h=636%5D
Editor,
To be fair, I’m sure UV/LMS are appalled at such Masses.
Petrus,
One would certainly hope so.
This spectacle of bad taste cannot be catholic; it has nothing to do with our religion.
I think that this “mass” is invalid and sacrilegious.
Petrus
If you were to include clown Masses you’d be offered the best Church in the City for free!
Editor,
Don’t forget a khutbah mass, a Shabbat mass, a puja mass, and a Uposatha mass. I mean, you want pluralism, let’s have some pluralism!
Better yet, how about total anarchy? For example:
* a comedian do a stand-up monologue for 40 minutes and call that a comic(al) mass, or,
* have a cook demonstrate her latest bread recipe for the congregation, and call that a Julia Child mass, or,
* have a transgender person share their “transition” experience and call that an Oprah Winfrey mass, or,
* we could gather Pope Francis and all his corrupt henchmen in the same church, and have them celebrate a chutzpah mass…
The possibilities are endless. I’m sure Cardinal Schonborn would be happy to preside at any of the above options…as long as he can bring his balloons…
Editor
Maybe we could pretend to go along with that until we get the building. Then we could lock the doors from the inside and offer a collective [hand-wave] through the big stained glass windows while sporting silly grins on our faces. Or would that be uncharitable?
No, that would be unseemly from the inside of a church. Best just [hand-wave] out of the letterbox of the front door.
Gabriel Syme
Yes, a Methodist or Episcopal church would do given their resemblance to Catholic churches inside. Keep an eye on that one in Woodlands Road, you never know.
The point you made about St. Andrew’s and the elderly is spot on. It is very wrong to expect the elderly and disabled to continue to climb they stairs, if not the hill, up to the church. I’m healthy enough and it nearly does me in. Time we moved on from there – quickly!
Gabriel Syme,
“Aye, those erroneous u-shaped balconies (like in Edinburgh) always betray an ex-kirk.”
Have you never been in St. Mary’s in Abercromby Street, Glasgow? It has a U shaped gallery and it was built as a Catholic church. I believe that a few Catholic churches in New York City also have them.
Vianney,
I have often walked past, but never set foot in St Marys.
Thanks for the info – I had never encountered or heard of such a gallery in a Catholic Church, thinking they were the preserve of presbyterians (shows what I know!).
When I have encountered galleries in Catholic Churches, they have just been at the back wall and I have always assumed that they were principally choir lofts.
The exception to this was my former parish Church – St Aloysius Garnethill – which had 2 galleries, used for overflow seating at midnight mass (now 9pm midnight mass – pfft!).
But 1 or both of these has now been consumed by the siting of the new organ there.
Gabriel Syme,
While horseshoe galleries (to give the their proper architectural name) are very common in Presbyterian and Methodist churches, they were often found in Catholic churches where the land wasn’t big enough to build a very large church and so a horseshoe gallery was included to increase the congregational space. St Margaret’s in Airdrie had one, but as some time the sides were removed. While it is rare in Scotland there are churches in Ireland that have them and Notre Dame Basilica in Montreal, Canada, actually has a double gallery, one above the other. I’m going to attempt to post a photo of St Margaret’s in Airdrie and I hope it works.
https://www.stmargaretsairdrie.org.uk/beginning
Unfortunately it hasn’t worked but I’ll see if I can post it some other time.
Ed: I found a section on the current website of St Margaret’s, Airdrie, which showed the original church interior, with the galleries, and replaced your link with a link to that page. Catholic Truth at your service!
Vianney
I’m glad there are not that many Catholic churches with horseshoe galleries because they do look more architecturally Protestant than Catholic. I just wish the SSPX could get hold of a couple of proper Catholic church buildings for Glasgow and Edinburgh and decorate them the way our churches used to be.
Could you not offer the District Superior the funds from your bank account??
Athansius,
I’m afraid stories of my wealth have been greatly exaggerated. However, I have heard that your mattress is two feet above your bed due the bundles of notes underneath it.
Vianney,
“I have heard that your mattress is two feet above your bed due the bundles of notes underneath it.”
It’s true, but the notes are promisory (I.O.U’s)!
Thank you Editor, it’s not true what people say about you.
Vianney,
I’m wounded! You mean they actually say stuff about me? It was bad enough, all those anonymous letters, I’m upset…
http://animationsa2z.com/attachments/Image/elderly/elderly43.gif
But, off the record, don’t you think I look LOVELY in that shade of blue? 😀
I was curious about the activities of these two groups, so I picked one of them, UV Scotland, looked around their website, and read their most recent newsletter (from May). I noted the following:
1. Their mission statement provides a clue as to why they keep sponsoring High Masses instead of Low Masses: “Una Voce Scotland was founded in 1965 for the preservation and restoration of Holy Mass in the Traditional Roman Rite, for the fostering of Gregorian Chant, and for the defence of the sanctuaries of Catholic Churches.”
2. They claim that the Fraternity (FSSP) is their “partner and associate.” This may be the reason why their activities are at the whim of the bishops.
3. They are apparently an organization with a very small budget, and therefore very limited resources, since the newsletter complains about the heavy cost of £187 for a Public Indemnity Insurance Policy which is apparently optional. Moreover, since their annual membership costs £25 , it doesn’t seem as though they have very many members, since only 4 memberships would cover the cost of the insurance policy.
4. Frs. Emerson and Black FSSP appear to be doing the majority of the heavy lifting in offering TLM’s.
5. My overall impression was that this was a low-profile, low-impact organization that has found a very small niche and is content to operate at that level. However, if their mission involves “preservation and restoration” of the TLM, it’s not clear how they intend to accomplish that given the very small scope of their efforts. I wonder if the net result is to occasionally trot out the TLM as a sort of museum piece for the delectation of the few.
As a final note, I had to laugh at this: regarding the new celebration of “regular High Masses” at St. Robert Bellarmine in Glasgow, there was a first Mass celebrated during Advent, and then, by request of parishioners (“in particular, young parishioners”) [young nostalgic parishioners?], a second one celebrated at a later unspecified date. But here’s the punch line: “Fr. McGarrity informed Archbishop Tartaglia of this development, and the Archbishop wished him well.”
My suspected interpretation of His Lordship’s remark: “Good luck with that nonsense, Father!”
RCA Victor, Fr. Emerson is actually the only FSSP priest. Fr Black is the head of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. They celebrate the Ordinariate Rite Mass which is based on the Sarum Rite, so why they are listed on the Una Voce site is a mystery.
Vianney,
This is why I contacted the chairman of Una Voce Scotland. I wanted to know why it was listed under the banner of TLM. The chairman responded succinctly:
Do not communicate with me again.
I guess he is consistent. That’s the one thing we can’t criticise !
I’m not sure how to ask what I want to here! What exactly do you mean by his replying ‘do not communicate with me again’? I’m asking because last year I sent e-mails to ALL Latin Mass Society local representatives whose e-mail addresses were on their site, including Dr Shaw, offering them (free) Holy Face prayer cards and I received no replies. Same thing happened when I offered them to the group doing the Holy Face billboards in Ireland. No reply. Same thing happens when I contact diocesan priests (all N.O.). Almost complete silence.
I confess it always leaves me bewildered, especially coming from ‘traditionalists’ (sadly don’t expect replies from N.O.). Whatever happened to courtesy? Nor is it me having e-mail problems – every other e-mail I send (a considerable number) gets answered!!
sorry, should have addressed the above to Petrus.
I presume he just meant don’t contact him or try to speak to him.
Petrus, your rather curt reply suggests that I butted in on a private conversation and you don’t wish to discuss further your (publicly written) comment. I am, however, trying to establish whether Dr Shaw is in the habit of ignoring anyone who contacts him or of actually telling them not to contact him or just certain individuals with whom he doesn’t see eye to eye. Either way, it’s hardly normal or polite behaviour and there would be little point my contacting him again at any time, even if I wanted to.
Heliosa
Sorry, I didn’t mean to give that impression. First of all, it was the Chairman of Una Voce Scotland who I contacted, not the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society.
Secondly, I really have no idea why the Chairman said what he said. I’ve never had another response from him, so your guess is as good as mine!
Ah, right – my mistake on names (should read more carefully!) but at least I now know it’s not just me who gets strange replies – or lack of them……
Heloisa
I know exactly how you feel about the those non-replies from Catholics who should know better and at least try to upstage the pagans, who at present have better manners. Good manners cost nothing, bad manners give scandal!
Oops, make that 8 memberships….arithmetic was never my strong point….
RCA Victor,
Was this you, then?
http://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon6404.png
Editor,
Possibly, but my homework paper looked like this:
https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.gkcduo1um3Doaa7bhdPVIwEsCT&pid=15.1
LOL! Looks like my homework papers as well!
Gerontius posted this news of the first ever public “ecumenical” Mass which, we must presume, is included in the “liturgical pluralism” espoused by the LMS – and, I have no doubt, Una Voce, since its Chairman fulfils his Sunday obligation by attending the novus ordo in the most notorious parish in the Archdiocese of Glasgow. O what a tangled web we weave…
totally shocking! An ecumenical Mass. I suppose it was only a matter of time. The Latin Mass leaders and Fr Bollan won’t have any problem with it, though, as long as it floats your boat, that’s fine with these people. The martyrs must be turning in their graves.
Ecumenical Masses, with all the liturgical abuses imaginable, and on the recommendation of Pope Francis. This really is the slippery road to hell. And I agree, Nicky that the martyrs must indeed be turning in their graves.
Making reparation and prayers and keeping to the Mass of all time is needed.
If the Bishops can really take control of the liturgy now, it will be interesting to see if any of them just say ‘All Masses in my diocese will henceforth be the Traditional liturgy’. What would Francis say then?
Heloisa,
What do you mean “If the Bishops can really take control of the liturgy now,”?
Lily,
I think Heloisa is thinking of the news, where Canon Law is changed to let the bishops change the liturgy in their own dioceses. There follows an extract:
A key to reading the motu proprio “Magnum principium”
Given the importance of this work, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council had already considered the question of the roles of both the Apostolic See and the Episcopal Conferences in this regard (cf. Sacrosanctum concilium, nn.36, 40 & 36). In effect the great task of providing for liturgical translations was guided by norms and by specific Instructions from the competent Dicastery, in particular Comme le prévoit (25 January 1969) and then, after the Codex iuris canonici of 1983, by Liturgiam authenticam (28 March 2001), both published at different stages with the goal of responding to concrete problems which had become evident over the course of time and which had arisen as a result of the complex work that is involved in the translation of liturgical texts. The material relating to the whole field of inculturation was, on the other hand, regulated by the Instruction Varietates legitimae (25 January 1994).
Taking into account the experience of these years, the Pope writes that now “it seemed opportune that some principles handed on since the time of the Council should be more clearly reaffirmed and put into practice”. Thus, taking account of the experience during the course of these years and with an eye to the future based on the liturgical constitution of Vatican II, Sacrosanctum concilium, the Pope intends to clarify the current discipline by introducing some changes to canon 838 of the Codex iuris canonici.
The object of the changes is to define better the roles of the Apostolic See and the Conferences of Bishops in respect to their proper competencies which are different yet remain complementary. They are called to work in a spirit of dialogue regarding the translation of the typical Latin books as well as for any eventual adaptations that could touch on rites and texts. All of this is at the service of the Liturgical Prayer of the People of God. End.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/09/breaking-motu-proprio-magnum-principium.html#more
To me, it sounds like the Pope is giving authority to the bishops to change the Mass in their own diocese if they wish. If I’m wrong, please let me know, but that’s how it sounds to me.
Lily, yes, Margaret Mary is correct. Of course, whatever it’s ‘supposed’ to mean, we can be sure it’ll be interpreted to mean that each bishop can do whatever he wants.
I saw this article (linked below) during a glance at the SCO webpage. Its by Fr John Bollan, a priest based in Greenock, (St Josephs), regarding the latin mass.
I haven’t spent long digesting it, but my initial reaction is one of confusion.
Fr discusses his experience of the mass, before revealing a traditional mass held in his own parish drew a crowd of 250, of which the majority (” a little over half”) “said they absolutely loved it”.
Fr then says there have been requests for more such masses at his parish, but he has not attended to these requests. He justifies this by saying he doesn’t want it to delegate it to “outsiders” (presumably he means Una Voce) and claims he doesn’t have the time to learn the mass – but says he would find time, if he really wanted.
This seems tantamount to admitting ambivalence / lethargy – despite his own parish finding success with the traditional mass, and people being keen for more.
Presumably he can afford this ambivalence because his parish is bucking the novus ordo trend, and has a booming attendance and is producing vocations? Forgive me if I am skeptical there.
Fr further praises the mass for its intricacy / depth and for its spirituality (contrasting it favourably to his rushed preparation in the sacristy for the novus ordo).
Yet still he shies away from offering it. He concludes this is because my principal concern is that this Mass should not be a vehicle of protest or nostalgia, but something free of such baggage. In other words, the Mass is no place for the grinding of axes
if i was one of Fr Bollan’s parishioners, I would be very disappointed with this attitude.
He is ignoring a demand, which could fruitful for his parish (as it has undeniably been for Immaculate Heart parish) based on an erroneous and deeply unfair assumption that the mass is about protest and nostalgia.
How many of his parishioners, the ones who loved the mass and wanted more, are old enough for nostalgia here? Few if any I bet. I bet most are younger Catholics from the post conciliar era.
And i doubt any of them had protest in mind either, most likely few of them even knew about the authentic mass before this first experience and so were spiritually moved by this encounter.
Come on Fr – offer the mass!
http://www.sconews.co.uk/opinion/54030/mass-is-no-place-for-axe-grinding/
PS – Fr Bollan is also a roman historian (he has a PhD I think) and says aspects of the mass are consistent with pre-christian roman worship. Can anyone shed any light on that claim?
Gabriel Syme,
I honestly thought I was seeing things when I read your comment about Fr Bollan. In fact, it is the article which you link that forms part of the introduction to this thread! I think I’ve said to others before, it’s all wise to read the introduction to any thread here, on this blog!
Still, I suppose it’s a step forward from posting everything on the General Discussion thread!
Editor,
Well I am suitably embarrassed – I had read the introduction, but a few days ago and I did not recognise the priests name. My main recollection from the intro were Ellen’s comments.
I suppose it’s a step forward from posting everything on the General Discussion thread!
I had started to post it there and the decided here would be better, thinking “Editor will be pleased with this decision”
I am weeping with laughter here!!
😛
I don’t like to be contrary, and I am not looking for a fight (!), but I think Una Voce Scotland and the LMS deserve more credit. Certainly they are far more worthy targets for criticism.
The LMS is by far the bigger of the two organisation reflecting the larger English population and has been very successful not least due to very generous inheritances it received in its infancy. It has built up a large network of traditional masses across england and wales, including in regions far from the nearest SSPX chapel.
On a recent trip to Cambridge, my daughter and I had a choice of two nearby traditional masses thanks to the LMS. If it hadn’t been for these masses, we could have not gone to Church on Sunday (I am obviously not going to take her to a novus ordo). In the event, we attended a traditional Dominican rite mass, a first for me.
One year, I went to the LMS York Pilgrimage in honour of St Margaret Clitheroe. There was mass in St Wilfrid’s and a public procession through the town. I had a great day (other than getting absolutely soaked during the procession) and would go back to that event.
In Glasgow, (and elsewhere), thanks to Una Voce, there is a slow but steady spread of traditional masses which is a good thing,they allow more and more people to experience the traditional mass. (People who in most cases have probably never heard of the SSPX and know little of the Church beyond their own parish). This experience can be an awakening for people, a first step – even if it doesn’t immediately turn them into Marcel Lefebvre or Michael Davies.
I go to the SSPX on a Sunday, (and other days), but I think it is good that (e.g.) there are other masses available in case I cant get to St Andrews one Sunday. Having grown up with puerile “Christian rock” etc, I enjoy being able to hear sung masses and marvel at the magnificent catalogue of Catholic music which I had never heard before. And if it hadn’t been for Cardinal Burke at IHOM, maybe i would have gone through life without ever having had the chance to attend a Pontifical High mass.
So, I must admit I have personally benefited from the activity of these organisations and so it would be unfair not to acknowledge this. A lot of this benefit has been in the form of having the chance to experience parts of my Catholic heritage for the first time. Beautiful music, different rites of mass, different types of mass, a public procession, first blessings from priests. I have enjoyed these experiences, which have been both educational and spiritual.
People often comment that my young daughter is well behaved at mass – (its amazing what tranquilier drugs can do, haha!) – in part I attribute that to sung masses. She attended her first such mass aged 4 months and was happy to sit and listen to the music which was clearly comforting for her. Through that she started to learn that Church is a place where infants sit quietly for the duration and then she had made the transition easily to the low mass.
I know not everyone likes sung masses – each to their own – but I appreciate both forms of mass.
I know of more than one occasion when the SSPX in Glasgow have gone to Una Voce to ask for a loan of liturgical item(s) and this has always been granted. (No doubt the reverse is true also). I think this shows that there is useful work done behind the scenes, which we might not always get to here about, but which is very worthwhile.
Ultimately, if the SSPX see them as a friend who can be asked for help at times, then I think that shows they are worthwhile organisations, even if they might not be perfect – but nothing is perfect, other than God.
Just my 2p. I’ll away and put my crash helmet on now 😛
Gabriel Syme,
I suppose it all depends what you are looking for. If you just want a traditional Mass, then Una Voce and the Latin Mass Society do that, up to a point. If you’re looking for certainty in sermons as well, I don’t think you can rely on the priests who operate with those organisations, because, ultimately, they are all anxious to please the hierarchy, and they will never speak of the crisis in the Church as firmly as they ought. They’ll always stop short of criticising ecumenism, for example, at least I’ve never heard one do so.
Also, I’m not sure if you would want your daughter hearing the novus ordo praised as being perfectly acceptable along with the other Masses, now that the policy of the Latin Mass Society and, I think, Una Voce Scotland as well, is to promote the novus ordo (since the Una Voce Scotland chairman attends it!) I don’t think it is acceptable to promote “liturgical pluralism” but then, as I say, it all depends what you are looking for.
To me, it’s a choice between pure Catholicism and the watered down version you get in any parish these days.
I can’t say about the Balornock Mass, though, but a friend tells me that the sound is so poor there that it’s not easy to hear what is said in sermons, so I can only speak from my own experience of Summorum Masses and the sermons are never hard-hitting, and tend to avoid mentioning the crisis. I suppose it’s fair to say they are not heretical and that’s something these days, LOL!
Fidelis,
I suppose it all depends what you are looking for. If you just want a traditional Mass, then Una Voce and the Latin Mass Society do that, up to a point.
I understand what you say. There is no doubt that the SSPX is the “real deal” and that’s why I go there. I have learned so much there, and from others who attend there and from this blog. I would always recommend that people go to the SSPX.
But at the same time, I think anything which widens the exposure – of both priests and lay people – to the traditional mass can only be a good thing. I’ve seen several interviews with modern priests, who have said that they have only truly begun to understand what it means to be a priest, following their first offering of the latin mass.
I think its about discernment, ultimately, and if there are solid priests offering the TLM – while still sadly being bound by their superiors to offer the novus ordo – then they are surely friends, not foes.
I agree 100% that Catholics should not be seduced by thinking that the type of mass alone means everything is rosy in the garden.
I can’t say about the Balornock Mass, though, but a friend tells me that the sound is so poor there that it’s not easy to hear what is said in sermons, so I can only speak from my own experience of Summorum Masses and the sermons are never hard-hitting, and tend to avoid mentioning the crisis.
I can attest personally that the priest at Balornock is very solid and puts in a lot of effort in his parish to educate his parishioners about the crisis. He gets a lot of stick from both lay people and other clergy for this. He must have 100 stories of being verbally attacked by lay people, and of people walking out of his masses, offended at hearing the Catholic faith.
I have it on good authority from an SSPX regular I know – whose wife attends the novus ordo – that at a novus ordo at Balornock, the priest said in his sermon (paraphrasing):
“None of you should be here. You should be attending the latin mass later today, which is the true mass of the Church”
I stress I was not present personally to hear this, but the man has mentioned that to me on a couple of occasions and he would not make it up.
Ultimately, I of course recognise the SSPX is the bedrock of tradition and orthodoxy. We are so lucky to have them in Glasgow and elsewhere in Scotland.
My policy is cling to the SSPX, but offer support and encouragement to other groups working for tradition too. The more a modern Diocese starts to look like the SSPX, the less strange and threatening the SSPX will seem to Bishops.
I think one of the reasons why modernists continue to enjoy hegemony in the Church is because the traditionalists are often so divided.
Una Voce Scotland as well, is to promote the novus ordo (since the Una Voce Scotland chairman attends it
It isn’t for me to speak on behalf of anyone, but I think that is because he is an accomplished singer and is part of the main choir there which is of very good quality.
I think his attendance there is born of a love for the traditional music of the Church, as opposed to a desire to legitimise the novus ordo.
Ironically, that choir was one of my first entry points to tradition. I used to go to the noon mass at St Aloysius and loved the sung mass. I was so ignorant back then – there was one piece which I heard every week and really liked it, so looked it up on you-tube to see what it was.
Turned out it was the Pater Noster. LOL modern Catholics, eh?
Gabriel,
I don’t think anyone could disagree with anything in that post, which is Catholic to the core.
Petrus,
I disagree that any love of any kind of music is any excuse for the chairman of UVS fulfilling his Sunday obligation at a novus ordo while expecting people (who may rely on public transport) to make the journey to Bridgeton, not even town centre, in order to attend the traditional Mass.
Unless, of course, the music at the St Aloysius Mass is more pleasing to God than the true worship guaranteed at the ancient Mass?
And there is no likelihood whatsoever, let alone guarantee, of hearing the truths of the Faith and Morals expounded in any homily in what the CT Team loosely describe as the House of Heresy up there in Garnethill.
Either the novus ordo is pleasing to God or it is not. If it IS pleasing to God, then what’s the fuss all about? I’d go in a heartbeat to my local parish if I thought it made no difference in Heaven. That’s the core issue. Not whether the music here, there or the next place is enjoyable. Or even if it is an “entry point” for returning to Tradition. God will soon supply other “entry points”. Like it or not, by attending the novus ordo, we support the revolution. We DO “legitimise” it.
So, I disagree with Gabriel Syme there and with your acceptance of this particular point, although I agree with the rest of his comment.
I have to say, though, that I doubt that the Balornock priest would want to be quoted here, on this blog, as Gabriel Syme has quoted him – not even the alleged “traditional” leaning priests in the archdiocese want to be associated with Catholic Truth.
Still, we ought to pray for them and for the success of what they are trying to do, which deserves our admiration and prayerful support.
Editor,
Yes, good point.
Gabriel,
Undoubtedly both organisations do some good. I think especially of the LMS with their training courses? wouldn’t dispute that. So, I agree with you up to a point. However, it is not enough. Any organisation that goes out of its way to have a foot in both camps is suspect, in my opinion.
I’m astonished that Una Voce would help the SSPX with anything. I know the chairman detests the Society and I don’t think he would ever do anything to help the SSPX. Are you sure it was Una Voce and not one of the diocesan priests who celebrate the Traditional Mass.
Ps. I’m jealous you have attended a Dominican Rite Mass!
Petrus,
I can assure you that the SSPX and UVS DO collaborate on occasion and have helped each other out, over the years.
I don’t know why you think the Chairman of UVS “detests” the SSPX – I’ve seen him at the Glasgow chapel in the past, and he is always happy to allow my nephews to serve the Summorum Pontificum Masses in Balornock when they attend; he knows that they attend the SSPX and, in fact, were trained to serve Mass there. So, I think, in all honesty, that you’re mistaken in this case. Had to happen some day, Petrus. We all make mistakes eventually… I will, too, some day – you wait and see 😀
This next paragraph is not directed at you, particularly, but at us all… if it applies…
I’ve been hearing quite a bit recently from people who read this blog and love it but two recurring criticisms …er… recur: our friendly readers don’t like it (i) when there are nasty personal remarks made, including about public figures, which they rightly consider to be un-Christian, AND (ii) when bloggers make definitive statements that cannot possibly stand up to scrutiny.
Finally, therefore, everyone…
Unless you have a certificate in mind-reading (at Phd level!) it’s always wise to avoid making definitive statements about what A.N. Other thinks or believes; a good rule of thumb might be: unless I can quote a personal conversation, speech or something in writing, it’s not true.
That’s, basically, what they’d say in a court of law. And no, our American bloggers, although the judge below might be either a male or female, he/she is NOT a wearing a gender-neutral uniform, if you get my drift – it’s “tradition” 😀
http://www.scraggie.co.uk/content/character_design/character_design_judge.jpg
Editor,
Thank you very much for putting me right with that one. Apologies to the chairman (if he reads this blog) for suggesting something which is obviously untrue. Apologies, to Gabriel too for questioning him. Clearly he’s much more informed than I am.
To be honest, I’ve no idea why I came to that conclusion. I must be mixing him up with someone else. Any way, I’m glad that’s been sorted out.
Editor,
I agree that “nasty personal remarks” are unChristian. However, is that something that is recurrent on the blog? I don’t think so. Bloggers are forthright, but nasty? Sorry, I really do question that.
When bloggers are wrong about something or someone, like I was earlier, it’s not usually out of nastiness. I’ve now realised who I got the chairman of UVS mixed up with. It was a mistake, not nastiness, and I’m sure that stands for most bloggers.
I think you are absolutely right to caution against that, but I also think some people place to much emphasis on “being nice”. John the Baptist wasn’t nice when he called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers” and neither was Our Lord when He took a whip to those in the temple. So, I think it’s right to be reminded of common courtesy, but we don’t want to fall into fall charity by catering to the more sensitive.
Petrus,
Fair enough. I have perhaps overstated the case – the people to whom I refer were not saying nasty personal remarks are common here, just that when some bloggers refer to, e.g. certain politicians, they can be less than polite and I suppose some of us can be guilty of not applying basic Christian charity to politicians 😀 Me, for starters!
Anyway, I take your points. Well made. And very polite! Don’t go overdoing it now 😀
Editor,
nasty personal remarks made
Unfortunately before I read this tonight, on the blog I referred to the rector of the shrine at Knock as a “dope” for chasing an SSPX pilgrimage group out of the shrine.
My apologies! (I do think he is a dope though).
Gabriel Syme
I didn’t call him a dope but I did email him and called him a hypocite, which is exactly what he is.
I reminded him that Pope Francis recently intervened with the Argentine government, asking them to recognise the SSPX as a Catholic insitution and grant them charitable status, which all Catholic organisations need to have if they are to survive in that country.
I then reminded him of the many invitations he’s made to non-Catholics and non-Christians to visit Knock on ecumenical business while banning Catholics. And the final reminder was Archbishop Lefebvre’s observation that “the martyrs sacrificed their lives for the truth. Now they sacrifice the truth”.
I hope for his soul’ sake he is a “dope”, for then he will not be culpable for his wicked action. But the liklihood is he knows exactly what he’s doing and so is just another ecumenical heretic posing as a Catholic.
Athanasius,
I really think you need to attend some Assertiveness Classes… to help this guy…
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/100/4253/1600/72237/assertive.png
Editor
Indeed! The first thing I would teach him is to polish the boss’s boots while asking the favour from ground level!
Gabriel Syme,
I’ve called him a lot worse than a “dope” – believe me. I don’t think that’s nasty anyway – sure, I call folks numpties all the time, so I do, so I do, sure and begorrah, at all at all.
PS I also think he’s a dope! 😀
Editor
I agree with your friendly readers that nasty personal remarks are unChristian and should not be posted on the blog, though I have to say I’m not conscious of any trend in this regard.
The second criticism is a little more obscure, though. Hence, is there any chance they could provide examples of bloggers making difinitive statements that cannot possibly stand up to scrutiny? I t would be good to get some clarity on that.
Athanasius,
The most recent example of definitive statements which don’t stand up to scrutiny, which Petrus humbly acknowledged, was his statement that the Chairman of Una Voce Scotland “detests” the SSPX. He couldn’t possibly know that without a source to cite, or words to quote, and he humbly accepted that correction. I’m sure there are plenty of other examples – but that will suffice for now.
Indeed, I think I was, myself, wrong to give the impression, which I seem to have done, that “nasty personal remarks” are more commonplace here than they are, but I, too acknowledged that fact, in my breathtaking humility…
I think the confusion arose because the particular reader who mentioned the personal remarks to me, was referring, primarily, to a tendency to be unkind about politicians. I suppose I’ve been a bit lax in correcting any such remarks, perhaps guilty of them myself, since I lack respect for them as a group, but it’s good to be reminded of our duty of charity from time to time. That’s me, being unkind, in the pic below…
http://etiquette-tips.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Small-Talk.jpg
The resemblance is staggering !
Petrus
I agree. But the pipe’s out of place!
Athanasius & Petrus,
Watch it, you two!
Editor
Thank you for that explanation. Of course we all have to be careful not to let standards of charity slip, so easy to do these days. I thought perhaps it was some overly-sensitive soul who may be confusing forthright speech with absence of charity.
It’s always worth pointing out for balance’ sake that charity doesn’t mean we have to make door matts of ourselves. The odd outburst of indignation can be very charitable in the right circumstances, like Our Lord with the money-changers in the Temple.
In general, though, we should always give religious and secular authorities their proper titles, assume the best when we’re not certain of motive and treat everyone else as we would expect them to treat us, even if they are barbaric, hedonistic, pagan trollop hell hounds and imps of satan! Had to get that wee bit of humour in at the end!
Athanasius,
Worry not – I always make short work of those who confuse forthright speech with absence of charity. I’m merciless; just ask Papa Francis!
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