Jesus or the Church?

Jesus or the Church?

New video in our series Thinking Through Catholic Truth (updated 18 July, 2018)

If you can think of other arguments to convince lapsed and non-Catholics about the divine roots of the Church, please share your thoughts below…

Comments (19)

  • westminsterfly

    A book that I recommend to dispel any such doubts about Jesus vs the Church is ‘The Faith of Millions’ by Fr John O’Brien Post conciliar editions of this book have got some added waffle about ecumenism, but even that is put in a correct perspective. I defy any protestant who reads this book with an open mind to be able to refute the claims of the Catholic Church.

    July 5, 2018 at 8:07 pm
    • gabriel syme


      Thanks for the recommendation!

      July 5, 2018 at 10:42 pm
  • Laura

    The suggestion that not all doctrine was recorded in Scripture is one of the hardest things to get across to non-Catholics. They think “scripture alone” is the source of all truth. The example of the Trinity will be useful in arguing that one.

    July 5, 2018 at 9:03 pm
    • RCAVictor


      I think St. John the Evangelist may have anticipated that mistake:

      John 20:30: “Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.”

      and John 21: 25: “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

      July 6, 2018 at 3:42 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        I stumbled across a Protestant response to that argument recently. He refuted those verses by pointing out that they refer to what Our Lord DID, not what he said/taught.

        Personally, I can’t see how Our Lord would DO things (like miracles) without SAYING something, but then, as I’ve often said, I’m a simple gal…

        July 6, 2018 at 4:33 pm
      • RCAVictor


        Not to mention the fact that the Gospels are full of accounts of what Our Lord DID and SAID…

        Maybe that Protestant thought Our Lord’s entire life on earth was silent, and that He just went about doing good whilst mute. Then again, one wonders how He could teach by not saying anything….

        July 6, 2018 at 9:47 pm
  • Margaret Mary

    The saying, “I don’t need the Church to have a relationship with Jesus” is very common today. I’ve heard lots of people saying that, and they just won’t be convinced that they’re wrong.

    I was also interested in the quotes from the Gospels about Peter – how do Protestants explain these verses? I have never heard a Protestant explain them.

    July 5, 2018 at 9:11 pm
    • RCAVictor

      Margaret Mary,

      That’s the same mentality of people who cohabit without getting married, i.e. “If you’ve got the milk, why buy the cow?”

      Divinely-ordained order be damned, in other words.

      July 6, 2018 at 3:46 pm
  • westminsterfly

    Chapter 7 of the above book deals with the ‘sola scriptura’ issue.

    July 5, 2018 at 9:13 pm
    • Laura

      Westminster Fly,

      Thank you – I was just looking at that book at the link you posted, looks very interesting indeed. I just might buy a copy – although I’m running out of space on my bookshelves, LOL!

      July 5, 2018 at 9:15 pm
  • gabriel syme

    When I saw the “walter mitty” text, before playing the video, I thought we had another piece about the Scots Bishops! haha!

    Its a brilliant video, well done to all involved. Succinct and easily digestible, I am sure it will prove enlightening to many people who have endured the standard of modern catechesis. Also great reference information.

    The ridiculous concept of wanting one thing without the necessary other, is very common in protestantism.

    Jesus without the Church.

    Jesus without Mary.

    The Cross without Jesus.

    And I loved the picture of Cardinal Marx appearing as dissenters were mentioned!

    July 5, 2018 at 10:49 pm
  • Lionel


    July 5, 2018 at 11:25 pm
  • Lionel

    Do you think that the Holy Church did not care about roots before?
    Those who have transgressed the two thousand-year-old doctrinal continuity will disappear in darkness and carry with them the distressing memory of their deceit and profanations that we shall have already forgotten, because after the time of Mercy on earth, there will be that of Justice in the Hereafter and for eternity and everything will return to order…

    July 5, 2018 at 11:30 pm
  • editor

    Thanks to everyone for comments so far.

    There’s one point that I should have made – here it is…

    If Christ had NOT established His Church, with divine authority to teach and the ongoing guarantee of the assistance of the Holy Ghost – with the precise definitions of all of this worked out by the Church Fathers WITH the assistance of the Holy Ghost – the people of the first century would have been left no better off after Our Lord’s life on earth, than before.

    They would have continued to debate and discuss the meaning of their Scriptures (on one notable occasion, even enlisting the help of a 12 year old!) without any certainty as to the authentic interpretation, and thus, still unsure of God’s will for them in the serious matter of eternal salvation.

    Father Hugh Thwaites SJ (RIP) made that point in one of the excellent audio-tapes, to which I used to love listening in the car when driving, and it struck me forcibly at the time. I think it is key to understanding why God wanted us to have the Church – “the ark of salvation”; with the establishment of the Catholic Church, we have a clear development in God’s relationship with His people, who now share in His divine life through the sacraments – each of which is itself rooted in Scripture.

    I hope this makes sense. Father Hugh Thwaites’ version certainly made sense but if I’m not explaining it clearly enough, let me know and I will try again. My usual motto is “if at first you don’t succeed, forget it” but I’m willing to go with the original “try, try again”!

    July 6, 2018 at 10:41 am
    • Lionel

      Your comment is fundamental, clear and limpid…
      It is a precise and relevant summary.

      July 6, 2018 at 10:13 pm
  • RCAVictor

    Splendid job, Editor, but I’m still waiting for a graphic of Lt. Columbo to appear in one of your videos…..

    July 6, 2018 at 3:48 pm
    • editor

      RCA Victor,

      We’ve just been discussing the graphics, video-master and my unworthy self, since I think we need to make the humour in keeping with the atmosphere of the video topic and I’m not sure that Jim Carey always does that! Columbo, on the other hand, I’m sure would work in just fine!

      July 6, 2018 at 4:30 pm
  • Fidelis

    I think that’s a very helpful video, indeed. It’s difficult to explain in a short space of time, how Christ set up the Church, not St Peter – I once saw a bulletin in a Catholic church which said “St Peter founded the Church” so the rot is everywhere, it’s not just non-Catholics who don’t know the scripture passages on the foundation of the Church. So, keep those videos coming!

    July 10, 2018 at 4:12 pm
    • editor

      Thank you Fidelis – another couple coming soon!

      July 10, 2018 at 5:07 pm

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