Are We Morally Bound To Obey Covid-19 Laws?editor
The Catechism of the Catholic Church on the duty of citizens towards the authorities in civil society:
The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:
When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel. (# 2242)
The question here, therefore, is this: are the Governments of the UK overstepping their authority by requiring us to accept some very serious restrictions on our personal liberty, in the name of “saving lives” – when by all accounts, the majority of those who become infected with Covid-19 recover from it? A relative of mine believes he had the virus back in January; he was sure it was simply flu, but because it was the worst-ever flu attack he’d ever experienced, he decided to visit his doctor. He said the doctor asked him “a strange question” – had he been in China recently! The answer was “no” and that is where that conversation ended. This relative – who is very elderly, in his 80s – made a full recovery.
There is concern, therefore, that perhaps the lockdown restrictions are not only unnecessary (who quarantines the healthy?) but also too stringently enforced. The full force of the law…Really? People stopped in the street, or pulled over in their car by the police, and asked to explain why they are outside of their home, destination etc. Do we have to answer? Should we pay any fines imposed? Is this a conscience issue, or would we be doing wrong to flout the State?
I’m with the majority in the voting poll – I think the government is overstepping its authority (the UK and devolved governments) and so I think it’s up to the consciences of individuals whether to obey, pay the fines, return to our homes if told by a policeman etc. I think it would be nerve-wracking if stopped by the police, and I’m not sure I’d have the bottle to say anything, but I hope I would. I definitely think it’s a conscience issue, and I can’t see how there could be an automatic right to obey these supposedly temporary laws when, human nature being what it is, and history telling us that governments never give up powers once they have them. I just hope I’m never put to the test, because it would be hard not to just go along to get along.
You are right about governments not giving up powers taken in “emergencies” once they have them. That’s a fact.
And today we have news of two things:
Firstly, the WHO is warning of a “second wave” in the face of the easing of lockdown in some places… Whoa…..dangerous to do that!
And secondly, there are new symptoms to add to the (clearly flu) symptoms already on offer. Now, loss of taste and smell are to be added to the list, never mind that those can be symptoms of something else. I had months of loss of taste recently – turned out to be nothing more serious than anaemia. I had to start cooking seriously rich-in-iron foods. And those of us who are hard of hearing, also have a reduced sense of smell. So, they’re scrambling around trying to make this “health scare” work. I’m not falling for it.
Happily, after a visit to a local shop this morning, I think more people are becoming more (healthily!) cynical. One hopes and one prays…
I’m no doctor, and I don’t play one on TV, but when your nose is stuffed up with the flu or with a heavy cold, then what are the two things you lose as a result of said congestion?
Answer: taste and smell.
Excuse me, I must put my white lab coat back on now…I have computer models waiting to be formulated, with my assistant Greta Thunberg….
Game, set and match!
I completely agree about the way the UK is turning into a police state.
IMHO the government is abusing its authority and so the police, in turn, is overstepping its authority.
The problem is, unlike the USA where they can appeal to the courts based on their constitutional rights, we don’t have any basis (apart from the Magna Carta) for our rights and when was the last time you heard someone go to court to argue their “Magna Carta rights”?
I haven’t changed my behaviour one jot and I have been stopped twice by the police. I always have a ready answer such as “I’m going to the chemist” and then I go there and buy toothpaste or such like. And yes, the police / government are overstepping their authority. Locking up the healthy and ignoring the sick or frail?!!
When I see police officers – such as those in the video above, albeit pleasant people, I have no doubt – stopping people in the street to ask them why they are out of their homes, I am appalled. Would it not be the right thing to assume that people are out for one of the “permitted” reasons?
That’s the clue that this is a power trip for too many people. Those particular officers, of course, are no doubt following the orders of their superiors, but the whole thing is disgraceful – and short-sighted. Let me explain…
I wonder if those same officers are planning to remain in the police force forever? If not, do they appreciate that if and when they switch careers, or simply retire, they, too, will be at the mercy of law enforcers who are authorised to check up on their movements, and, if they deem necessary, issue a rebuke, a caution, a fine, or arrest them? And what about those officers’ families and friends? Are they happy about the fact that their families and friends may be stopped and quizzed by a police officer, just as they are quizzing the person in front of them right now?
I’m praying that I never get the chance to ask those questions personally, but if I’m ever detained in these (non-criminal) circumstances, I will make a point of asking. Politely, arms outstretched…
Woe betide them if they stop me in the street when I am going about my lawful business. I can’t stand bullies using a uniform to intimidate ordinary citizens exercising their natural freedom and civil liverties. These are police officers who disgrace the force by acting contrary to its spirit and the spirit of their colleagues going all the way back to the institution’s foundation. They are worthy only of contempt in my eyes.
As for their flimsy excuse “we are only obeying orders”, well we’ve all heard that one before. Chris Whitty has already declared in a Downing Street Coronavirus briefing that Covid-19 is harmless to the greater majority. Now the police and their Beijing tactics are fully exposed for what they are.
RCA Victor posted the following link and comment on another thread yesterday. I think it’s important to post here, as well but he’s obviously been out pubbing and clubbing and missed my “request” 😀
Headline: UK Gov’t confirms Covid19 harmless to VAST MAJORITY of people
I wonder how long Dr. Chris Whitty will have his job… Ends.
In other words it’s just a bad flu season and the Bishops of Scotland are keeping the church doors shut until 2021. What a joke they all are!!!
Regarding the closure of churches in Scotland, I was roundly told off by an occasional visiting blogger about my headline on that thread which is, I have to admit, misleading. Not deliberately so, as headlines sometimes may be, quite legitimately to provoke debate, but because I had misread the newspaper report upon which the thread was based.
However, while they are not strictly speaking remaining “closed” until 2021, the Bishops do not expect them to fully reopen until 2021; some kind of phased process to allow some people access is being planned.
Still the golden oldies, the “vulnerable” group, will remain at home for their physical safety. Seems their souls, their spiritual safety, is not so important, never mind that they are likely to face their Maker sooner than those gathered to sing “Bind us together, Lord”…
As for your closing observation, speaking of jokes…
Stand corrected and I like the GIF
Here’s a cute music meme you might like:
This is from “The Catechism Explained” (Spirago and Clarke). Athanasius appeared at my door years ago with a satchel full of these books, and since he had a somewhat undernourished look about him, I bought one. Best purchase I ever made:
“Our duties towards the ruler of our country requires us to obey all just laws which are issued in his name, to be loyal to him, to hold him in respect, and to support him by our prayers, by the payment of taxes, and by military service if required of us…the commands of the secular authority are the commands of God…But if the temporal power is something that God forbids, we must recall to mind the Apostles’ words: ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’ ”
Uh-oh, and then there’s this:
“Bad rulers are generally sent by God as a chastisement for the sins of the nation. If the monarch should be tyrannical, we must implore the help of God, and His help will be granted when the people forsake their evil doings.”
So there are some seemingly opposing rules at work here: one, are these lockdown laws just? In fact, are they even “laws”? Two, do we reject them and get ourselves arrested because we claim they are laws which God forbids? Three, If God forbids these laws, where did He forbid them? Four, what about the factor of tyranny? Do the officials creating and enforcing these laws think they are tyrannical, or do they think they are acting responsibly because of the health situation, which, they have been convinced, is a severe crisis?
I’m not much help, am I?
The police are not just overstepping their authority, they are acting unlawfully. There is no precedent in UK history to justify the police or any other secular arm of government enforcing the suppression of the rights and freedoms of the population under any pretext, not even during the World Wars. What is happening at present is a criminal act by police that should result in the highest authorities within that organisation being stripped of all rank and going to prison for betraying everything their past colleagues would have defended unto death… civil liberties. The police force has lost its independence, not to mention its moral compass, and is now just a political tool to be used in whatever way a particular government chooses. It is shocking and I don’t think the British people will ever look on the police with the same respect in future. They have lost all dignity and respect in my eyes, acting, as they have, like Communist Police State bullies against law abiding citizens under the pretext of the fake pandemic.
I’m just popping in to post this article, where Nicolas Sturgeon is delighted to report (in her studiously calm manner) that the people of Scotland are just about wholeheartedly behind her and that they are in agreement with the Government that we should come out of the lockdown slowly blah blah. I hate to think my fellow Scots are quite that stupid, but one does have to wonder.
Oh, and it’s interesting about the support from North Korea for Scottish Independence. I wonder why?
I have a question.
We all talk of ‘laws’
My thinking is that in order for something to be law of the land, it had to be presented to parliament as a bill. Then it had to be passed by a majority of MP’s then passed by the house of Lords and only when it is signed by the monarch does it become law.
All the other ‘things’ are regulations and can be challenged in a court of law.
Am I wrong in this?
I do not recall any majority votes in London, or the pretend parliament in Edinburgh, passing these draconian ‘laws’
I am sure you are correct but these MPs can always find a way round such a little problem as an inhibition to their power. I think these regulations came under the heading of “Temporary Laws” but I could be mistaken – there are so many “updates” that I’ve lost track (all part of The Plan no doubt!)
Incidentally, I had a telephone conversation the other day with a reader who remarked on your “2 metres” joke. She thought it (as I did/do) hilarious! That your gas and electricity meters are in two different places. Priceless! I meant to comment at the time but I’m very easily distracted these days… It’s a feature of the young. As I get older, I’ll be able to concentrate better 😀
“As I get older, I’ll be able to concentrate better.”
Was that you I saw at the store buying 144 boxes of ginseng?
That ‘thing’ about 2 meters came from a ditty composed by an unknown poet.
If you and your learned clientele will indulge me it is below.
With this New Speak “Social Distance”
The population has gone mad,
The invention of some Jobs Worth
A type of Government jihad;
You cannot hug your family
Or get too close to ‘her’ next door,
There’s been a run on masking tape
To mark 2 meters on the floor.
I’m too old to think in meters
So i am prone to get it wrong,
People treat me like a Leper
Or an arrival from Hong Kong;
Is six feet too close for comfort
Am I intruding in your space,
It’s hard to tell when out shopping
With your Lone Ranger covered face.
To check this 2 meter diktat
I sought my incoming supply,
Rejoicing that they are not green
With Social Distance they comply
The gas meter is in the kitchen
By the pipe which comes through the wall,
The electric one keeps well apart
Sitting out lonely in the hall.
Pardon the sidebar, but given your poetic mastery of the King’s English, I wondered if you have ever read any Tobias Smollett – e.g. “Humphrey Clinker,” or “Peregrine Pickle.” If not, I bet you would enjoy them thoroughly.
You old flatter you (my spell checker wants to say ‘fatter’ – down boy!)
Thank you for your kind words.
I had not heard of him. I have looked up Mr Smollett and he is on my ’roundtuit’ list. Thank you.
No, I think you’re right. What you forgot to include, however, is that the new law should be consistent with common law, or the natural law, if it is to be valid and acceptable to the people. The lockdown doesn’t meet any of those conditions and is therefore an unlawful legality, if you know what I mean.
The Church has, and as is clearly seen in this dubious crisis, handed over the keys to a secular atheistic society and is falling deeper and deeper into its clutches.Their can be no doubt that the current Pope has a globalist populist left wing political vision and is actively and falsely promoting this vision as a gift of the Holy Ghost?. In doing this he is taking the church in a completely new direction, which is unrecognisable as Catholic, he is leading the church more and more into the hands of secular society, as the other Christian sects have done, and through the secular media is reinforcing this on the world stage. He is leading the church into error!
The modernist church in almost all western societies is denying the true faith and embracing humanist liberal policies.They are fully engaging in every aspect of modern liberal society by actively down playing abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, and IVF etc. Catholic schools and parishes are engaging in funding so called “Catholic” organisations which promote contraception and abortion, cohabitation and transgender policies. The involvement of priests and laity in inter-religious services with other “faith groups” is highly corrosive for the faith and leads us to the one world Freemason vision of god which is blasphemous!
As belief in the Real presence is continually being undermined the role of the priest it appears is now more of a social worker rather than a saviour of souls and he to seems more than happy to accept this as he gladly locks up his church, putting well crafted notices widely proclaiming this ” work of charity” More and more the faithful are being led away from the tenets of the Catholic faith, from the top downward on the basis of false charity and as in the last reformation the faithful rather than following it meekly are embracing it joyously. We cannot open our churches because people will die! while at the same time actively and happily going shopping in various outlets for food and shortly flowers, golf, and tennis for these are important. Pope [Benedict XVI] in his recent book has give us a vision of the Antichrist and how the people will flock to his feet as he reassures them that what was for generations wrong is now right, what was evil is now good! as so many comments on Catholic blogs tell us we no longer need church we now have God and the sacraments on the telly, and a church is only a building. If we are allowed at some as yet unannounced time to open our churches maybe perhaps ten people can be allowed in but then we can change the sabbath to Monday or Tuesday whatever, for we have it on a Saturday now anyway?
These are the type of comments currently doing the rounds.in modern Catholic circles in Scotland Pope [Benedict XVI], long before the current events, spoke of a “small” church where the Catholic Church as we currently know it would no longer exist. I for one do not share this vision. I believe the only way to confront the situation we are in today is to hold firm to the true faith, the faith of our fathers an to resist all aspects of modernism vociferously. So, no I do not believe we are morally bound to the current laws and restrictions!
Editor: I took the liberty of removing your surname. Revealing personal information is not encouraged on this blog. If, however, for some reason you wish to have your surname restored, just say the word.
I completely agree with everyone that we do not owe any obedience to these temporary laws, because they are an infringement on our civil liberties when there is no need at all.
I thought this short video clip with an American police officer who is refusing to apply the laws where he lives, would interest bloggers. I can’t see anyone in Police Scotland breaking ranks, though, more’s the pity. I envy the Americans their Constitution. We just don’t have any way of invoking our rights.
Here is the “dictatorship on the move”!
Excellent analysis from a former epidemiologist at Rockefeller University:
You are exceptionally good at digging up reports online. Can you find the one that sources the Bill & Melinda Gates Fundation as funders of the World Military Games in Wuhan just prior to the Covis-19 outbreak. I read about it somewhere and now can’t find it. Over to you.
Did you mean the Event 201 seminar at Johns Hopkins U?
No, I saw that video and the World Military Games weren’t mentioned in it. I’ve been racking my brains (10 wasted seconds!) trying to remember where I read or heard that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation helped finance this particular event in Wuhan last September or October, I think. Search the Internet but can’t find a single reference. If you can’t find anything either then I’ll put it down to Covid-19 exhaustion.
Afraid I’m striking out. The best I can suggest is to go to the website of the International Sports Military Council, which apparently organizes these events, and look under Member Nations, under Europe (oddly enough, the UK is not listed, but Ireland is). If you click on the Ireland link, it will give names and emails – maybe one of those individuals can answer where the money comes from. They do have a Budget and Finance Commission, but sources of funds are not listed.
(Both names for Ireland have military addresses)
Many thanks for taking the time to search for this information. I will use the link you provide to see if I can take it further and get some solid information on the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation’s involvement, if it exists. I wish I could remember where I read that!
Meanwhile, check this out: the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation contributed $94.8 million to the WHO in 2017:
scroll down to page 7:
So far I have not seen the police when I have been out. But, I would not be a happy lady being stopped and questioned as to where I am going and why. I do need to eat which means buying food, or I need to go to a pharmacy for toothpaste and the like/collect my prescribed medication.
But I found this link interesting. This is a Doctor in Dallas, Texas speaking publicly to a group of people about how she treats people with Covid-19, her office.
Thank you for that link to Les Fes Femmes (and great video).
If you scroll down on the right hand side you will come to the headline Catholic Media Coalition Members – check it out. There’s one member on the list that you will definitely recognise.
Interestingly, all those years ago, when the London Times ran two horrendous articles about Yours Truly, following our reports (in a single edition of our newsletter!) about homosexuality within the Church in Scotland, there were goodness knows how many hundreds of nasty comments underneath the articles online. Just as well I’m no fragile feminist.
The savvy American readers recognised what was going on, and two things happened: firstly, I was invited to do an interview on an American radio programme, where the presenter was (? is) a homosexual Catholic. He was very friendly and fair in the interview. I had to be up and ready to talk at around 4am our time. Nothing, apart from the prospect of talking would get me up at that time. Secondly, the Catholic Media Coalition invited me to attend one of their conferences, so I had a week in Virginia, USA – beautiful country. Thanks again to my hate-filled critics. One of the unintended consequences of your hate campaign was to help promote Catholic Truth, at home and abroad. Shucks!
So, that should help make sense of the listing on the right hand side of the Les Femmes website… Les Femmes is a wonderful publication, by the way, exposing so much of the dissent and scandal in America.
Here’s what’s behind Door #1, courtesy of our ruling elites:
Editor: See new thread on the topic at this link
I’m actually about to prepare a thread on the issues surrounding the vaccine, so if bloggers would hold off responding to that excellent article, that would be good. I’ll link it again in the introduction.
I promised a correspondent a few days ago that I would be posting a thread, firstly on our position regarding obedience to the temporary laws, and secondly our attitude to the vaccine when it comes. There are a couple of reasons why it is problematic for Catholics. Just hand on in there! Won’t be long – I hope to have it up and running within a couple of hours or thereabouts!
Some time later… The new thread is up and running at this link
N O T I C E . . .
The following email from Margaret USA arrived this morning… I promised to post it here…
Please ask the CT family to pray for me. I know I haven’t commented in a while but the past few months have been very tough. Mom’s birthday was last week and she’s gone 6 months as of yesterday so it”s been a rough time for me emotionally.
Thank you very much. Once things settle down I’ll be back on CT.
All the best to you, Athanasius (a belated Happy Feast Day to him) and the entire CT family.
God bless you.
Yours in Christ the King,
My prayers go up for Margaret USA, and her mother, RIP.
Any loss of a family member or friend is hard, but none so hard as the loss of a mother.
I will not fail to remember Margaret USA and her mother (RIP) in my prayers. There is no hardship in this life more difficult than the grief associated with losing a loved one, especially a mother. Terrible to hear what Margaret USA is going through, I will pray to St. Joseph for her.
Prayers for you and your mother, Margaret. It’s a terrible loss, unlike any other, when your mother leaves. God bless.
My consolation, as well, Margaret. It’s not something we ever get over, really, the loss of our mother.
I’m thinking of you, at this time.
Absolutely no, we are not obliged to obey these temporary, and irregular new laws. They are a taking away of our hard won freedoms.
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