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Comments (50)
Is this the same Fr. Robinson who supports theistic evolution?
RCA Victor,
I’m glad you answered this question yourself because I’m not sure! I think there IS a “Fr Robinson” who has written about theistic evolution but I’m not sure this is he, so to speak poshly…
I just answered my own question: it is the same Fr. Robinson. As Father and the interviewer point out, the video is inconclusive regarding the answer to the question, except for situations like sedevacantist Masses or “resistance” Masses.
However, there is a message at the bottom of the screen at about 15:40 that says this:
“Any danger to the faith in attending a traditional Mass will not come from the Mass, but from the doctrinal position of the priest or the particular group to which the priest belongs.”
Which begs two questions:
1.Is there a danger to the faith in attending a traditional Mass celebrated by a priest who supports theistic evolution? [Not sure said support could be considered a “doctrinal position,” but I still think it is a valid question.]
2. Is there a danger to the faith in attending a traditional Mass offered by a group that endorses Fr. Sean Kilcawley, the scandalous “pornography priest”?
I believe this interview has opened a can of worms, unfortunately. The SSPX has placed itself in a glass house too often of late (as we’ve discussed here), and I don’t think they are immune to violating their own principles.
I have never heard anything remotely doctrinally heterodox or close to it during an FSSPX sermon. I do not believe that Fr Robinson has publicly promoted thesitic evolution, but instead has advanced a position commonly known as ‘old earth creationism’.
MI,
You’re lucky you can hear anything during those sermons. Last thing I heard was wishing us all a blessed Christmas – and that was about three years ago 😀
The sound system leaves something to be desired… To put it mildly…
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5K_spu5fxvI/UYB6BWGocoI/AAAAAAAAPMc/f1wqLaMelV4/s1600/church+sound+system.jpg
Miles Immaculatae,
Father Robinson has written a book on the subject, which was rebutted by the Kolbe Centre – it’s an excellent article and well worth reading through.
https://www.kolbecenter.org/the-realist-guide-to-religion-and-science/
MM,
I disagree with the author of the article from Kolbe Centre. Father Robinson believes in old earth creationism, which is not a form of ‘theistic evolution’ as is claimed by the author of the article. The Kolbe Centre promote the young earth creationist position, which is why they are critical of Fr R. Catholics are not obliged to believed in YEC, because if they were, then the SSPX would surely have prevented Fr R from publishing a heretical book.
Fr R has responded to the Kolbe Centre article, here:
https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/st-maximilian-kolbe%E2%80%99s-disagreement-with-the-kolbe-center
MI and MM,
Thank you for those articles, which I’ll read later, with much interest.
I’m not so sure that Fr Robinson’s superiors would have prevented him writing the book albeit with errors, because said superiors weren’t bothered one bit about allowing Bishop Fellay to share a platform with Fr Kilcawley, whose advice on dealing with temptations to impurity was, shall we say, a tad unusual. Not what you’d want the young people in the audience to hear. I’m not saying he repeated that shocking advice at that SSPX family conference (I don’t know) but his video is “out there” and the fact that he thinks like that (contrary to Our Lord’s admonition to flee temptation – check out the Our Father) is of much concern. Nevertheless, those of us who wrote to the organisers were both amazed and disappointed at the response – which was, in essence, a defence of the invitation which they refused to withdraw.
Now, it’s not easy to withdraw an invitation, as I know from personal experience. However, when the matter is grave, and there is an immense danger of causing scandal, there is no option.
I think it’s worth noting that Fr Robinson’s presentation in the above video is excellent. He is very pleasant and measured in his commentary and I liked his admission of a “personal concern” (my words) regarding the FSSP. That is very honest. It’s a subject which often arises – I know that people frequently ask me for my opinion – and so I think it’s good to have the SSPX official position on record.
Miles Immaculatae, the Kolbe Center article is not the only objection raised against Fr. Robinson’s book. A very good friend of ours — an SSPX priest of more than thirty years — has sated that The Realist guide cannot be recommended due to, inter alia: the book’s promotion of the “big bang”/cosmic theistic evolution theory; the denial of the geographically universal Flood of Noah; and because of its opposition to Creation Science, “which is supported by many examples of scientific evidence all over the world,” our priest friend notes, “and is more in line with the traditional Catholic understanding of the Book of Genesis.”
Regarding youf supposition that the SSPX would “surely have prevented” a book containing heresy to be published, I would not hang my hat on that presumption. First of all, Fr. Robinson’s book is published by “Gracewing Publishing,” not the Angelus Press. Not that that means anything significant. We here in America remember well the brouhaha that resulted from the Angelus publishing the awful five-volume history of the United States, called “Puritans’ Progress,” ghost-penned by Charles Coulombe. Mr. Coulombe is most recently famous for his use of tarot cards, but was writing for “Gnosis” magazine at the time that Bishop Richard Williamson was promoting the “author” and former stand-up comedian.
Frankly, I trust the Kolbe Center, and I think you would, too, if you looked into their excellent DVD set on true Catholic thinking on Creation. They also published Pamela Acker’s excellent book on the Catholic Perspective regarding Vaccines, while the SSPX was telling us here in Post Falls that it is acceptable to “conditionally” accept abortion-tainted vaccines due to the “remote material” connection to murdered and butchered babies.
I am always reluctant to burst someone’s bubble regarding trust or loyalty in a group or institution; but Truth must be adhered to. The Truth is that neither the SSPX, nor the FSSP, nor the ICK, are perfect. We live in an age when, unfortunately, we must be very discerning regarding what comes from our bishops and clergy, regardless of their affiliation.
Marinaio,
Well said, thank you. Regarding the Kolbe Center, I recently read a very long and scholarly article about the book of Genesis by Mike Gladieux regarding the source of Moses’ writings. Turns out that his efforts are also published as a PDF e-book:
https://www.kolbecenter.org/product/the-genesis-documents-e-book-pdf/
The essay was a real eye-opener, I’m sure the book is even more so!
MM,
Thank you, you beat me to it!
RCA Victor,
You make very fair points. I’m tempted to add a couple but you know me, not one to chatter on… 😀
I stopped going to diocesan Traditional Latin Masses and I have decided not to return.
The diocesan TLM in my city is immediately preceded by a bizarre ritual where the sacristan, a layman, announces sicknesses and deaths from the ambo in the sanctuary, and leads communal prayer. They also say Mass on an altar shared with the Novus Ordo, and I cannot be sure that I am not receiving Holy Communion which has been pre-sanctified at a Novus Ordo rite.
A few years ago, I attended a TLM in England, and the holy day of obligation which occurred during a previous weekday had been transferred to the following Sunday, which is a novelty of the new calendar and not the Traditional calendar. I was angry that I had been tricked into participating in this modern liturgical peculiarity.
At other ‘bi-ritual’ diocesan parishes, during the Paschal Triduum, the Novus Ordo takes precedence, and the TLM is cancelled.
I also experienced an unpleasant rejection from my local diocesan TLM. I was not allowed to sing in the choir, even though I was sufficiently competent. I then realised that these people are using the TLM as a kind of secret fraternity and elitist social club for people who like to dress up. In internet slang they are known as ‘LARPers’. These people are creating a historical reenactment of the Sacred Liturgy, a museum. The TLM is a living being, not an antiquity for the enjoyment of a few middle and upper class dandies and pseuds. If one wishes to dress up in lace and Chinese silk, then I do not object to them doing this, but do it in the privacy of ones home, and not at church, or join an amateur dramatics and operatics society.
I met a young women at my chapel who told me that she had stopped attending FSSP because her FSSP parish had been forced to go along with the diocese’ Covid rules. Only the SSPX, it would appear, have resisted this ominous interference of the state in Christian life.
I attended a TLM in Glasgow in 2012 and the priest was making up prayers, for example, instead of saying “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam eternam. Amen”, he said instead “Corpus Christi” as he would during the Novus Ordo. He thought that Trads were so thick that we wouldn’t notice. That’s when I finally decided to go to SSPX.
Groups like the FSSP are not monolith, and their members hold a variety of positions, for example, some of their priests will be friendly to the SSPX and others extremely hostile. When you go to these Masses, you never know what you’re going to get, and herein lies the danger to ones faith.
The FSSP and other diocesan TLMs attract laity who would otherwise come to SSPX. If Traditional Catholics were not divided among themselves and all went it the SSPX, we would be stronger. The tactic of the Conciliarists is to divide and rule. However, Covid has shown the Conciliarists for what they really are, and there have been several new attendees at my local SSPX chapel.
MI,
I recognise your description of the layman making the announcements and that is deplorable (to quote Hillary Clinton!) but since there is only one priest, I wouldn’t think twice about the Hosts being consecrated at his novus ordo. The Church teaches that we must judge the validity of the Sacraments by the public actions of the priest (we cannot tell his intentions, whether at the NO or the TLM). Thus, if the same priest who offers the TLM also celebrates the NO we can assume a valid consecration (unless he’s obviously using invalid matter, and/or altering the words of Consecration – which I’ve never witnessed when I attended that church). In that parish, therefore, I have confidently received Holy Communion at the TLM and would do so again, but for the fact that they are going along with the Covid restrictions, to their eternal shame. That and the fact that I have a commitment to chauffeur the half of Glasgow into town and home again. I’m a martyr to meself, as they say in the north of England…
Regarding your 4th paragraph – I’m sure I heard from people who attended the Sacred Heart, Bridgeton in Holy Week that the traditional rite predominated. I stand ready to be corrected on that, but I did hear from someone who went along when she heard that the TLM was on offer and was pleasantly surprised.
As for increased attendance at the SSPX Glasgow church – well, let’s hope it doesn’t get too full, as it did a while back, when there was insufficient seating because I know people who stopped coming because they had to sit outside the actual church, in the lobby at the back, for the duration of Mass. In at least one case, when the husband had had to persuade his wife to attend, said wife refused to put up with that, more or less saying, “up with that I will not put.” And they returned to their previous Summorum Pontificum Mass.
And don’t say “Oh, the priests will buy a bigger church” because said priests – be assured – have absolutely NO intention of buying a bigger church. Me, I have my sources, I can tell you! Or, rather, I can’t tell you 😀
I am pleased to hear that there was the Traditional Sacred Triduum at Sacred Heart, how things have changed! Can you tell me by whom the liturgies were said?
SSPX need a bigger church in Glasgow, or the present chapel could be extended, because actually an architect can solve problems in a clever way. For example, an new larger chancel could be constructed eastwards from the building, and the entrance to the church could be constructed next to the current apse. There is space to construct a ramp within the terrace (for disabled and elderly access). The blind arcade could be opened up into a new isle. A good architect could potentially increase seating capacity by a third. It would cost money, but so would buying a new church. There are ways of getting money. Some of the most exquisite churches in Glasgow were built in poor parishes, but they found the money somehow.
I did not mean to question the validity of the reserved Blessed Sacrament at Immaculate Heart, I was saying that I would not want to receive Holy Communion which had been consecrated at the Novus Ordo because it is cooperation with evil and ought to be avoided. However, I admit I may be wrong about this, and I will need to consult with a Traditional preist. My reasoning is based on the fact that although the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments, it is forbidden for Catholics to receive Holy Communion consecrated by an Eastern Orthodox priest, because it is participation in a schismatic act. Similarly, the Novus Ordo is intrinsically evil, just as a schismatic rite. Father Gregory Hesse argued that the Novus Ordo was a schismatic rite, however, I would not assert this myself, as I cannot sufficiently remember his argument as to defend it, but it was convincing nonetheless. I would be happy to send you the link, if you would like it.
Miles,
The Holy Week services were by Fr Dunn, a Glasgow priest who says the Traditional Latin Mass all the time.
About the SSPX chapel, why would anybody go to all that trouble to extend that chapel in Glasgow when it’s not in a good place to start with? Their parking place is horrendous, and form one week to the next you never know if it’s going to be in use. I remember a spell when for a lot of weeks, months, actually, the car park was closed. There is no on street parking without vouchers which are hard to get, and the nearest car park is a national car park, which is expensive and quite a long walk away, uphill. Why would I go there when I can park right outside Immaculate Heart of Sacred Heart? You say you’ve never heard heterodox sermons at the SSPX chapel but neither have I ever heard anything except orthodox sermons when I’ve attended the two Glasgow churches. I don’t know about any others – I know there’s one in Toryglen but I’ve never been to that one although I keep meaning to go and also to the one in Motherwell which gets a good attendance, I believe.
There are loads of churches for sale these days and I can’t believe they would go to the trouble of employing an architect to redesign that chapel which, frankly, isn’t the nicest church I’ve ever seen, inside or out, and there’s some climb up stone steps to get there in the first place!
I don’t mean to be negative, but if it’s a choice between extending what’s there and buying a new building, I’d go for the new building, and pick one where there is plenty of parking around.
Lacy,
Although I agree (totally) with your concluding paragraph, I wouldn’t say the little SSPX church in Glasgow isn’t “the nicest church… ever seen”.
Goodness, there are people who say the same thing about Notre Dame in Paris – those daft modernists who don’t want it being restored to its original design, for example.
Listen, it’s not perfect, I grant you that, but if you’d attended the NO in some of the churches I’ve been forced to attend over the years, it comes second on the list after Notre Dame. Be fair… 😀
The chapel is rather pedestrian but it has charm. I particularly like the rood screen and reredos, which were saved from another church. We also have some nice windows, the central one featuring Saint Andrew. There are a few places up for sale in Glasgow that might be appropriate. If we see anything for sale, we should email the details to SSPX.
Miles Immaculatae,
Sounds nice. I think “has charm” is good.
Miles Immaculate,
I agree the Glasgow Chapel has charm and you are so right to identify the rood screen and reredos as notable features.
I like the modest Gothic touches on the building. It used to have a small steeple (I have pictures in a book, but I don’t know what happened to it).
Considering the building was not designed as a Catholic Church, I think what has been achieved is very good.
However most aspects of the building and its grounds are extremely tired looking, to say the very least. Some parts of it are progressing beyond simply being dilapidated to become an embarrassment.
I like to let my kids play with the other children after mass, to make friends etc, but I am concerned that the grounds are actually dangerous for small children. And the crumbling stairway leading up to the building is dangerous for everyone.
Money is spent, but almost always in terms of repairs. In recent times, a significant roof repair has been carried out as well as pipes being replaced under the building – I expect both of these cost a pretty penny.
In the 9 years I have attended St Andrews, the interior has been repainted once (about 3 – 4 years ago) and that has been it, in terms of beautifying the Chapel.
I think a decent investment could bring the Chapel and its grounds up to a respectable standard. It wont rival Brompton Oratory any time soon, but it could at least be bright, neat and with modernised facilities.
I don’t know the finances of the SSPX mission in Scotland, but at a UK level there seems no shortage of money. The Church in Woking was rewired in recent years at a cost of £45,000 and I believe work is now underway to repair the stonework of the building (I think that runs into 100s of 1000s of pounds). Even a small fraction of that could transform St Andrews.
I do not know what the stance of the SSPX is, but I expect the idea is to do the minimum work on St Andrews (given it is small anyway) and try to buy a new City Center Church.
The Church of Scotland is not long for this world (especially now it is intending to introduce “same sex marriage”) and they have two big Churches not far from St Andrews. Those will come onto the market, sooner or later.
The Archdiocese has two moribund parishes nearby: St Pats (Charing X) and St Columbas (Hopehill road). I have long thought those could be rolled into one – becoming more sustainable – and the SSPX could get the other building: everyone’s a winner. Of course, the spiteful modernists would likely never agree and prefer that everyone loses.
Just my 2p anyway – what places do you know of, for sale in Glasgow?
Imo, the SSPX missed a trick with the Church next to the new Sikh Temple – its now a Tron Church. And the large, imposing Church on Great Western Road, which is now Websters Theatre. These are good examples of what can become available as the Church of Scotland passes into eternity.
I am annoyed that the district did not purchase either of those two former Church of Scotland chapels that you mention, which is a missed opportunity. The one on GW Road is particularly grand. St Columba’s around the corner from St Andrew’s on St Vincent Street is a magnificent church, and I would love for us to have that one if it ever comes up for sale.
I have also seen a photograph of our chapel with the little spire on top.
Either St Patricks or Saint Columba’s in Woodside would be ideal for us, if only the Archdiocese would sell them to us, but I somehow doubt this, but anything is possible.
I don’t know of any churches presently for sale in Glasgow.
Miles,
Yes those two were missed opportunities. I agree about St Columba’s on St Vincent Street. They hold Gaelic services there, I believe.
I occasionally look at this Church of Scotland “property for sale” page.
https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/about-us/property-and-church-buildings/properties-for-sale
They are always punting lots of buildings, but usually more remote Churches. The City Center ones will be the last to fail, probably, due to population density.
It is notable the amount of private residences which appear on that page also.
I wonder if they have some scheme going to avoid taxes / estate agent fees, via selling private property through the Church which enjoys charitable status?
Miles Immaculate,
As Lacy says, it is Fr Dunn, now back at Sacred Heart to sustain the TLM there.
I was left open-mouthed that the Archdiocesan response to Fr Conroy retiring was to seek to stop the mass and tell the congregation to “go elsewhere”. I didn’t realise the parish was so well off for parishioners and funds, that it could be so callous.
It was such a stupid move, especially as they had the TLM trained Fr Dunn on sabbatical. Having him say the mass was the obvious solution, and I am glad that sense has prevailed.
Miles Immaculatae,
I too often like to ponder how St Andrews might be revamped and improved. I know nothing about building works, but it is fun to think what realistically might be done.
I don’t know if the capacity could be increased significantly, but I would settle for:
– new flooring throughout (get rid of those scabby, worn out carpet tiles)
– underfloor heating (possibly with solar panels to help run it)
– new benches (or the current ones fixed up and revarnished)
– the existing extension (I presume installed by the original congregation) to be demolished and replaced by a proper extension (no flat roof etc).
The new extension could swallow up some of the rear garden which is unkempt and only really wasted space. New extension to include a cry chapel (with a TV link to the Mass, if no direct view is possible) and replacements for all existing facilities, except bigger, better and modernised.
There could be largish hall(s) which could even become a source of income.
– gardens to be made neat and easy to maintain. Picnic tables down the open side for the congregation after mass on sunny days. Possibly a small play area for children.
– possibly even a small accommodation for priest(s) to stay over.
Although, I understand the large house next door (now a B&B) was originally the Church Manse and the SSPX passed on this when acquiring the Church, due to the noisy City Center location. (I am open to correction, if that is wrong).
– possibly suitable / appropriate wall murals / art to be added inside the knave
All that would cost a lot I am sure, but then at least some of the options are reasonably affordable and would make a big difference.
It is something I enjoy thinking about – after a few drinks, I can even roll out my plans for underground parking – which is obviously complete fantasy haha!
I forgot to say, one strong argument in favour of retaining and revamping St Andrews is the fact that it is the only Church in Scotland which was consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre.
Imo that is a significant point and one which will become even moreso as the Church gradually rights itself in the coming decades.
In future, it might even become a place of interest for visiting Catholics.
I hope its not true that the district turned down the grand house next door due to “noise”, because that would be embarrassingly effete.
The district could always build a new church and adjoining facilities from scratch. There are many beautiful Catholic churches in Glasgow that were built in poor areas for poor parishes. I don’t see how money is an obstacle if one trusts in Providence. If the district sold its land in city centre and Carluke, then that could go towards the new build. The Society are building a new church in America.
Editor, Lacy & Miles,
Some of you at least may be aware of my involvement for years in trying to have our SSPX priests do something about St. Andrew’s church – which I do not hesitate to declare is presently a disgrace to Traditional Catholicism.
I went to see the prior, Fr. Sebastian Wall, about two years ago about the dull and dilapidated state of our church, suggesting that after nearly 35 years it was about high time the SSPX either flattened it and rebuilt on the site (including a car park) or find another church more accommodating to Catholic zeal and sensibilities.
Father’s response was that he had had the church examined and it was full of damp rot. He said he had been in touch with the Archdiocese to discuss the possibility of purchasing one of the many churches it had earmarked for closure, stipulating, said he, that it would have to be in a City Centre location, to which received favourable noises in response.
Given that the District Superior, Fr. Brucciani, had already dismissed any hope of a new church – on the basis that he had his own plans for that cash-draining school down south – I was a little suspicious about Fr. Wall’s claim. My suspicions have since been realised as I now do not believe that he ever spoke to the Archdiocese about a new church. What he did instead was replace the rotten roof on the church hall, not something you do when looking for a new church, before abandoning Glasgow altogether to take up permanent residence in Edinburgh.
Putting aside the utterly disgraceful dilapidation now evident both inside and outside St. Andrew’s, the interior decor, sanctuary aside, has a Presbyterian feel to it. One does not walk into that church building and see exhibits of wonderful Catholic piety and zeal to raise the spirits to God, as is common to every Catholic church where holy zeal for the House of God is alive and well. Rather, one walks into a run-down, dark and damp building that screams indifference and neglect.
Just to put matters into perspective. When my family first returned to the true Mass at St. Andrew’s, more around 34 years ago, it was in an even worse state than now and no one had done anything to improve it.
The wall that now separates the church from the hall used to be a big wooden & glass partition that could slide backwards and forwards, the confessional had no screen between priest and penitent, the aisle and sanctuary carpets were worn out and the building was freezing cold due to inadequate heating – which is still the case today.
Anyway, my brother and I built the wall with double doors that now separates the church and hall and hung the statue of St. Joseph. We had a special banner made in Edinburgh to hang underneath, which reads “Ite Ad Joseph”. Additionally, put a screen into the confessional, replaced the sanctuary and aisle carpets, put new carpet tiles on the hall floor and bought a beautiful statue of Our Lady of Fatima to compliment the Sacred Heart statue in size on the opposite side of the sanctuary (which, sad to say, one influential parishioner declared would never be allowed into the church to replace the current oversized and less-inspiring Mother & Child image).
We did likewise in the Edinburgh church; refurbishing the toilets, building new side altars and a new purpose-built confessional (they didn’t have one before, just a screen in a hallway with a chair on either side). We also completely refurbished the large hall at the back of the church and installed state-of-the-art food preparation facilities which quickly raised a lot of funds for the church. The previous District Superior and Prior of Scotland, now gone from the SSPX to join the “Resistance”, destroyed that enterprise by taking all the money raised (£1100 in 9 months) back to England when the former prior had specifically stipulated that it remain in Scotland for our building fund. This was tragically another example of how Scotland is viewed by English SSPX superiors.
I have recounted all of this so that people reading my account will know that I am not just a complainer but one who has tried for years at great cost, both financially and in energy, to try to make something of these ex-Protestant churches while the priests and their lay “co-ordinators” did nothing.
Are my words those of an angry man? Yes, they are, for I have witnessed the great things that can be done by priests when they are zealous for the House of God. One such example is Fr. Coenrad Daniels, the SSPX superior of Philippines, who has just completed the building of a basilica-like church dedicated to Our Lady and doesn’t owe a penny in debt for it. Father reached out to Traditional Catholics all over the world for funds and his zeal and trust in God were rewarded with a magnificent new church that puts anything the SSPX has in the UK to shame. Such is the contrast between priests driven by zeal for the House of God and the indifferent. It is truly heart-rending to have to declare it but they couldn’t care less in this country. Worse yet, they treat with contempt anyone who tries to bring matters to their attention – guilty conscience, I suppose.
On a practical level, St. Andrew’s church is inaccessible to elderly and disabled people while the cold is dangerous to their health. The garden is overgrown and the pathway has been ripped up and not properly re-laid following some sewage works. The car park in the dental hospital is now off limits to us and on-street parking is practically impossible. Besides that, the church is too small and is full of damp rot. All in all, we desperately need to flatten the present building and re-build a new glorious church on the property with a car park. All it takes is zeal for, and trust in, God to make it happen.
For this we should pray that God will send us superiors like Fr. Daniels so that we can all enjoy again what Catholic everywhere once had before the Council, i.e. what is historically the mark of a lively Traditional Catholic parish – called outward signs of inward grace – the best House we can afford to reflect heaven on earth, the place where the King of kings resides in the tabernacle.
Saint Columba’s, Hopehill Road, Woodside, Glasgow, would be the ideal church for us. It is in a central location, it has parking space, a manse, and a large garden. It is also a vast and magnificent church, category A listed, and an internationally important building, a Gillespie, Kidd, and Coia. It also has a dwindling attendance.
Let us pray that the Archdiocese and the SSPX district of Great Britain will be compelled by our righteous demands and prayers.
Perhaps we could start a novena to Saint Joseph for this intention?
Miles
I had a look at the photo gallery for that church and I’m afraid it does nothing for me. Although it was built in the 1940s, it looks very much like those horrible Modernist buildings that pass for Catholic church’s today. Besides that, It looks maybe a bit on the large side. In all, it certainly doesn’t match some of the more beautiful Catholic churches I’ve seen in and around Glasgow.
St. Patrick’s Charing Cross is perhaps a better idea, despite the horrors that have occurred there in recent years. If we could get that one, which I believe also has house and parking, then maybe we could restore it to its pre-Council beauty and have it re-consecrated.
I still think the best option, though, is to flatten St. Andrew’s and build a beautiful Traditional Catholic church in its place, complete with house and car park. Yes, it would cost a lot but with zeal for God and trust in St. Joseph I don’t see that as a barrier. All we need are priests with sufficient faith and zeal.
Saint Columba’s is in the early modernist style, which I am quite fond of, but I understand it is not to everyone’s tastes.
Saint Patrick’s, Anderston, would also be ideal, however, I contacted a priest I know who has a position in the archdiocesan curia, and he told me that the archdiocese has no plans to close Saint Patrick’s. However, this might change with the new archbishop. It is more likely they would sell off Saint Columba’s, because there is a school attached to Saint Patrick’s.
I am sure a talented architect would be able to make the most of the space that we have on Renfrew street, successfully accommodating a parish hall and clerical residence, although I am not sure if there would be space for a carpark.
Miles
Anything that has the word “modernist” in it is a definite write-off for me, as modernist, in my experience, means ugly. Although not fully ugly, St. Columba’s is certainly not the most attractive Catholic church I’ve seen, built, as it was, in a time when faith was waning.
As for St. Patrick’s, you could be right about that not being available. The grounds we have already at St. Andrew’s are sufficient, I think, to construct a sizeable beautiful church with house and hall attached and still leave room for a reasonably large car park. There’s quite a lot of ground there.
Athanasius,
Regarding St Patricks: I actually attended a latin Mass in there, a few years ago – I believe the priest was from ICKSP.
The Mass went well, but I was struck by the traffic noise, with the proximity of the motorway etc.
Also, the wall down one side of the Church looked as though it has been roughly chiselled away – maybe to remove some problem? Perhaps it is repaired now, but I have never been back (it was a one off Mass).
I agree the Pugin building is wonderful – it reminds me of the Parish I grew up in.
Gabriel Syme
Yes, I think after years of general neglect St. Patrick’s would need to have some money spent on it. My cousin (RIP) was married in that church many years ago and I was in attendance. Since then, even more than any material neglect, a number of tragedies have soiled the church supernaturally. These were the murder of the Polish student by that serial killer, whose name I am happy to have forgotten, and the infamous “musical bowls” performance by the Buddhists, which was actually a religious and blasphemous ceremony. I don’t think the church was ever properly re-consecrated following these great evils within its walls.
Still, with proper re-consecration that church would be ideal, despite the muffled sound of M8 traffic in the background. If the SSPX sold the present property together with that house they live in away in the middle of nowhere, they could easily afford to buy and refurbish St. Patrick’s.
If memory serves, this church was either the first or one of the first Catholic churches built in Glasgow when the Protestant ban on Catholic churches was finally lifted in the 19th century. I think Irish and highland Catholic faithful largely paid for it.
Not sure if they’ll ever sell St. Patrick’s because of its iconic status, but how apt if the rebuild of Traditional Catholicism were to continue through that particular church.
Miles,
I agree about Saint Columba’s, for the reasons you identify.
I actually really like the external view of the building, a brick built Church is unusual. Im less fond of the interior, although it is notable for its marble reredos and crucifix by Benno Shotz.
I was surprised the parish did not close when the Dominicans left, some years ago now, with the few parishioners shunted down to St Pats at Charing X.
Like many novus ordo Churches, it has made the rear of the Church an area with noticeboards and reading tables etc, to avoid the look of lots of empty pews. I remember seeing a publication available “Catholic worker” which seemed ominously marxist.
When I still went to the novus ordo, I attended mass there a few times. The choir was run by Sir James McMillan (a lay Dominican) before he moved to Ayr.
Once I went in there before a vigil mass, looking for confession. There was only me and an elderly man present, who went to fetch the priest for me.
I remember hearing the man go into the sacristy and telling Father someone was outside wanting confession. The Priest, clearly shocked, asked the man to repeat himself.
There was then a big, pregnant pause and stunned silence, before an explosion of activity as Father was diving about trying to get himself organised. It was all I could do not to laugh!
When the Dominicans left, the priest moved to Blackfriars Cambridge. Years later, I was in the area and attended a Dominican rite Mass there – but I passed the very same priest at the entrance and you should have seen the double take he did! (I looked for him afterwards to speak – he was not the celebrant – but alas did not get hold of him).
If you ever want to see an ugly modernist building, check out Blackfriars Cambridge!
Miles,
I forgot to say, I think your novena idea for a new Church is excellent and we should pursue it!
Athanasius,
I had no idea that you and your family had done so much – financially and physically – to progress the Churches in Scotland.
And so I can appreciate your frustration with the current state of St Andrews.
I realise the district will have a lot of demands on its finances, but it would certainly be nice to know of the plan (assuming there is one) for the Glasgow congregation, or at least to see some of the worst aspects of the building addressed.
My children are small and so likely are not aware of the problems as keenly as adults, but surely there will come a point in future where they question the state of the building and wonder about my judgement!
Athanasius,
I am impressed at how much you have done in practical terms for the Glasgow SSPX chapel. That’s amazing.
However, I am just amazed that you think the present building could be flattened and a church rebuilt on that site, including a car park and disabled access. I just can’t imagine that. It is an elevated building, and I just cannot see how they would be able to construct a disabled access and car park.
It would also mean just being content with that size of a church – where is the ambition to draw many more people?
I Googled to find a photo of the chapel and I found this one – I am no buildings experts or architect but I honestly can’t see how this place could be rebuilt with car park. Maybe there’s an expert on the blog who could support your idea – but if it were me, I’d prefer to buy a new church altogether. It’s none of my business, though, so I’m just virtue signalling by trying to help, LOL!
https://fsspx.uk/sites/sspx/files/styles/dici_image_full_width/public/events/image_chapel_glasgow_01.jpg?itok=OPUF8Dm8
Gabriel & Lacy
I don’t generally speak of what I have done for the churches of the SSPX because it comes across as looking for praise, which is certainly something I neither seek nor merit. What I have done over the years is no more or less than my Catholic duty. Think of it in terms of the litany of personal sufferings St. Paul wrote to highlight what he had undergone for the sake of the Gospel and for souls. Although I am not anywhere near the level of this saint, the general idea was to show that I’m not just an idle complainer who hasn’t done his bit.
As regards the District having a lot of demands on its finances, the greatest money pit of all is that school down south. That place has been draining the SSPX of financial and priestly resources for decades and it’s about high time it was greatly reduced in size, especially now that home schooling programmes are readily available to Catholic parents.
Scotland is one of the most generous of the Society’s regions in terms of contributing through the collections, especially Glasgow, so the priests really need to start putting some of that money back into our church buildings. As I said earliear, though, it’s not really a monetary problem as such, it’s an absence of interest together with, dare I say, a great lack of trust in divine providence to provide when contemplating great things for God. The idea for a novena to St. Joseph is an excellent idea, one that the priests themselves should have suggested and led long ago. St. Joseph is certainly the one to trust for remarkable miracles.
In terms of the present church property in Glasgow, it seems to me that if the current “pile of auld stones”, as one late departed parishioner rightly called St. Andrew’s, was demolished before it actually falls in on us, then the available ground, including quite a large unused green area, would, in my opinion, create sufficient space for a modest-sized church with house, hall and enough room for parking. I agree, though, that probably the best way ahead is to find another church, a proper Traditionally-built and beautifully decorated Catholic church building with easy access for the disabled and elderly and good parking facilities.
We don’t need a massive church since we are definitely not going to be overwhelmed with newcomers anytime soon. The congregation has certainly grown in the 34 years I’ve attended Mass at St. Andrew’s, but not by great numbers, so a reasonably-sized building that doesn’t look inside and out like an old Presbyterian kirk would be definite progress.
All it takes is for our priests to demonstrate the zeal and the trust in divine providence. If they do that, as did Fr. Daniels in the Philippines, then we will see great things happen. If they fail to show this priestly leadership then the deterioration will continue, and it won’t just affect the church buildings!
I believe (1) SSPX (2) FSSP and (3) ICK Latin Masses are all good.
IESUS MARIA
Deo gratias!
How about Resistance Masses? Are they good too? Though I’m fairly certain that there aren’t any in Resistance Scotland. By “Resistance” I mean those who are affiliated with Bp. Williamson, formerly of the SSPX. I attend an SSPX chapel in the U.S., but also support the Resistance.
I do hope that a new church building can be found for the SSPX in Glasgow. But the Faithful in Glasgow may have to go the route of having masses said in homes and garages again, like in the old days. It’s doubtful that the SSPX will provide the funds for a new church unless they see that it will be a money-maker in the long run.
We are very fortunate that our chapel here in the U.S. is a former Protestant building, which the faithful have kept up in good shape. It’s clapboard wood, so easier to maintain. It’s an ugly building, but it serves a good purpose.
MI,
Not that it’s definitive proof, or that he has the last word on the subject, but the late great Michael Davies RIP used to attend the TLM at the diocesan parish of St James, Spanish Place most every Sunday – I spoke with him there many times – and he said that he had absolutely no problem in attending the TLM but receiving Hosts which may have been consecrated at a previous N.O. Mass. I think I recall he even wrote that somewhere as well.
I stopped attending Spanish Place due to increasing car parking difficulties in that area. Sometimes it’s just a question of practicalities – you do the best you can. I am reliant on a friend to drive me to Mass and I go to a diocesan parish for the TLM about 20 minutes drive from where I live, and I’ve been going there for many years. I’ve never heard any unorthodox sermons there – far from it. I dread the day I may no longer have access to a lift to Mass. It would almost certainly be a nightmare to get to any TLM – SSPX or otherwise – on a Sunday by train, as the service isn’t great, it also means changing twice to get into London, and they nearly always use Sunday to do rail improvements, so part of the line is closed and you get bundled onto a coach for part of the journey, so it can take hours. A friend from Central London who visits me occasionally has had endless problems coming to me by train at the weekend. All the local churches around me are N.O. There isn’t one TLM in the whole deanery to the best of my knowledge. As I say, all you can do is the best you can, under the circumstances that you’re saddled with.
Westminster Fly,
I’m not sure if you are saying that Michael Davies wasn’t bothered about the Hosts being consecrated at a novus ordo – you said “but” so would you just clear that up. Thanks.
Michael Davies said that he had absolutely no problem in attending the TLM and receiving Hosts which may have been consecrated at a previous N.O. Mass. I think I recall he even wrote that somewhere as well. Hope that clarifies things.
I neglected to cite another SSPX violation of their own “danger to the faith” principle, even more recent than the Fr. Kilcawley scandal, namely, the SSPX position on psychopath Bill Gates’ genetic modification experiments, aka “vaccines.”
As we discussed here, and as Athanasius laid out admirably in his letters, the SSPX was gravely mistaken to support the Vatican position on this.
RCA Victor,
That was a big shock, about the vaccine advice, and I am still shocked that that advice has never been corrected.
Michaela & RCAVictor
It wasn’t for want of trying on my part – I sent a lot of information to the SSPX superiors, including Menzingen, demonstrating how wrong they were in the matter of these vaccines, but no one responded, yet one District Superior had the courtesy to respond. He was a very kind and gracious priest, though sadly not for changing the party line on vaccines. The rest just ignored my communications in typical Pharisaical style. I guess I was considered too low down the pecking order to merit even basic human good manners.
Gabriel, Athanasius, Lucy et al.
Here is a YouTube video regarding the progress of the new SSPX church in America. It just goes to show what is possible if the Faithful trust in God.
Miles
Absolutely right – this is exactly what can be achieved by hard graft and trust in God. It’s a beautiful church, even better than the new build I referred to in Philippines. I keep asking myself what’s wrong with Traditional Catholics in this country, they’re so lethargic and defeatest?
Unlike many classical/baroque pastiche designs for new-build traditional-style churches in America, this one is refreshingly tasteful. It is ornate, but there is nothing gaudy about it. I think the altar is perfect and the decision to not have ostentatious gradines, a reredos or baldachin/ciborium is a sensible one.
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