Vatican: Enemy of TLM To Be Prefect for Liturgy Congregation? No Kidding?

Vatican: Enemy of TLM To Be Prefect for Liturgy Congregation? No Kidding?

From Gloria TV…

Francis will appoint the anti-Catholic Archbishop Arthur Roche, 71, as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Liturgy and successor of Cardinal Sarah, IlSismografo.Blogspot.com (May 24) knows.

Presently, Roche is the Secretary of the Congregation. He was named to his present position by Benedict XVI in 2012 and is a sworn enemy of the Traditional Latin Mass and even of a New Rite celebration according to the books, but he will not succeed in stopping the rise of the Roman Rite.

Generally, his nomination is of little importance as the New Rite has spun out of control anyway, and however, Roche will thankfully contribute to its quick, painless and necessary death.

Comment: 

Blogger Westminster Fly alerted me to the above, apparently, forthcoming appointment, and I’d no sooner started to prepare this thread when I had a telephone call from another friend giving me the same information and asking if this means the end of the Traditional Latin Mass; will priests be harassed by bishops so that they stop offering the old Mass or what.  What will happen, if – as seems more likely than not –  Archbishop Roche is promoted to be the next Prefect for the Congregation for the Liturgy…  I’m not sure.  What sayest thou?

Comments (75)

  • TLMLurker Reply

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/05/urgent-pope-tells-italian-bishops-he.html

    Pope told Italian Bishops he plans to abolish the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum”.

    May 25, 2021 at 9:09 pm
    • editor Reply

      TLMLurker,

      What a disgrace this pontiff is, from start to finish.

      If he does this, and tries to force priests to have to ask permission from their bishops, then we will soon be able to identify the sheep from the goats.

      Only someone with a very poor grasp of the nature of obedience, unable to distinguish true from false obedience, would go along with this. That and, of course, the primary emotion around these days – fear. They all preach “fear not…” but, in fact, they live their lives ruled by fear. Whether it’s wearing masks etc. or the inability to say “no, thanks” to a modernist/apostate bishop, there are too many who are ruled by fear. The TLM priests need to refuse to go back to the indult days when if the bishops said “no” they obeyed.

      And yes, that would mean threats of dire consequences. Given the shortage of priests, I’d be surprised if the threats were followed through, but the clergy will have to decide whether they stand for the Truth, the Faith, the true Mass, or whether, frankly, they don’t. They can’t go back to having a foot in both camps. If they do, then the thought of what they face at their judgement – now, THAT should fill them with fear. Big time.

      May 25, 2021 at 9:25 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        The time is fast approaching when Any Good Clergymen will have to denounce this Pagan i don’t even believe he’s a Protestant. He’s without a doubt a Freemason it’s written all over that Smug Worldly Face of His. Also the sacking of Fr James Altman has this Acting Popes Hands all over it. Through his Reprobate Chain of command ad bet my Granny’s Pension book and my own that Bishop Callahan has been told it’s either Him who goes or it’s you who goes. Also before we start to Lambast Bishop Callahan let’s take into account ourselves. Would I if push come to shove give up MY Palace . My Servants. My Cooks . My Big Car and last but not least my Very Very Lucrative Pension to save Fr Altman. I personally would hope I would but it’s not me who is being told that . I have a fairly comfortable living would I be willing to become Homeless as Bishop Callahan would be. I hope and pray that if or when that test comes I will like Fr Altman says ” Stand before God with a True Conscience and not fear Judgment ” As for Miles Comments on Clergymen prancing about i hope he watches the Loads of Homosexuals who surround this useless Acting Pagan Pope as one can tell lots by the Company they keep. As Fr Altman said on Taylor Marshal He didn’t know how reverent the Traditional Latin Mass the only Really True Catholic Mass was until he Learned it . I have said on here I was exactly the same and am not for turning back to Protestantism again. This Dressed up Pope and His Pansie cronies are trying for a last big push, we must resist them. As for our Bishops it’s time we gave them Nothing unless they Back us and be Catholics . Good Morning all . Or good Night. Sorry ED just as a P. S. our own Latin Mass has grown from only 4 off us to now nearly 50. People know Truth when they see it .

        May 26, 2021 at 1:10 am
      • RCAVictor

        Editor,

        Technical question: what class of papal document would it take to nullify a Motu Proprio (which is what Summorum is)?

        May 26, 2021 at 1:52 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        “Bull” and “China Shop” spring to mind. Unfortunately I haven’t seen that covered in any episode of Mzzzz Marple, yet 😀

        May 26, 2021 at 2:20 pm
    • editor Reply

      TLMLurker,

      I have received an email alerting me to an update on the above report. Looks like Pope Francis is certainly about to clamp down on the traditional Mass – God help him at his judgment. I’m assuming that this is an update although the links appear to be the same. Today being Wednesday, 26th, it looks like an update, although I can’t recall exactly what Rorate Caeli originally reported.
      https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/05/urgent-pope-tells-italian-bishops-he.html

      May 26, 2021 at 12:21 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Ed I have never felt any real empathy with this Acting Pope and like many on here was wary of the Evil that He may carry out . But like us all He has a Master but Me Thinks his Master is not nor never has been Almighty God.
        If He goes through with the Outlawing of The Latin Mass which seems likely it just actually shows how Evil he is . Let’s get the Boxing Gloves on and say it like it is . He is NOT nor Never has been a Catholic. He is without a Doubt a Freemason and what He’s going to do to us Spiritually or at least try to do ,He done much much more Evil ,as we are well aware to the Chinese Catholics who are very much in fear of their lives through this Terrible Man.
        As for your comment on him being judged ” Who are You too Judge how He will be Judged ” just kidding on that of course. As from the very day He made what is now The Homosexuals Pride Banner Saying ,yes He most certainly will be Judged and as far as am concerned especially if He now goes through with this We must resist Him . As St Paul says He is an Anathema.

        May 26, 2021 at 5:34 pm
      • TLMLurker

        The first paragraph is what is updated. Rorate, as much as I don’t like that blog, was right about Summorum Pontificum in 2006-2007. This upcoming abolition of the Traditional Mass is disturbing.

        May 26, 2021 at 5:38 pm
  • RCAVictor Reply

    Roche was named to his present post by Benedict XVI? More proof that Ratzinger/Benedict was just another Modernist, and not very well disguised.

    May 25, 2021 at 10:05 pm
    • Athanasius Reply

      RCAVictor

      I agree with your observation 100% – Benedict has always been a Modernist, though not quite as radical and destructive as a certain Jorge Bergoglio!

      May 26, 2021 at 12:12 am
  • Athanasius Reply

    It is only to be expected that a Pope of the mindset of Francis will not be comfortable with the ancient Mass that sanctified the saints and martyrs. He’s a naturalist, like the Freemasons and Communists, who detests the sacred Traditions of the Faith. I’m only surprised he hasn’t suppressed the old Mass completely, as his destruction of the Franciscans of the Immaculate some years back seemed to indicate. He’s in for a fight, though, because the priests who have been celebrating the old rite since Summorum Pontificum are now wholly attached to it and will refuse to go back to the usurper Protestant rite.

    May 25, 2021 at 10:16 pm
  • Miles Immaculatae Reply

    I believe that Pope Benedict was beneficial to Traditional when he promulgated SP because it introduced many modernist Catholics to the Traditional Mass for the first time, and consequently opened them up to Traditional doctrine and devotion. However, as time progresses, I believe the continued existence of SP Masses is ultimately divisive because it prevents the Traditional movement from becoming united. People remain in the ‘safe’ and comforting familiarity of their diocesan SP Masses, but they have to make comprises, particularly the priests. At this stage, it is better that Traditional Catholics unite behind the FSSPX, because the Society alone can stand up to modernist Rome. Diocesan Traditional-leaning Catholics, and groups such as FSSP etc., are impotent because of the comprises they have made. Just look at how they capitulated to the diocesan bishops during lockdowns and social distancing! (This prompted many of them to come over to FSSPX.) Had they not complied to the bishop’s demands, many clergy would be without a home, and stipend. So, I think its good news if SP is abolished because these folk will no longer be able to sit on the fence. [The rest of this comment removed at request of Miles Immaculatae – see his subsequent comment where he is apologetic about what he sees as his lack of charity – Editor.]

    May 25, 2021 at 11:12 pm
    • Josephine Reply

      Miles,

      I could not disagree more with you.

      You cannot seriously believe that the SSPX alone will bring about the restoring of the old Mass? They don’t even exist in many places. There’s only one tiny chapel in Glasgow and another one in Edinburgh. That’s it. Also, it was clear from comments on another thread recently, that the priests have no intention of buying a bigger and better church in Glasgow so I don’t think the SP priests will be redundant any time soon. To their credit, the SSPX priests have sometimes helped train the priests in dioceses so that they can learn the old Mass.

      As for during lockdown – we discussed this at the time. They were in a prime position to refuse to close their chapels but they didn’t. They went along with the closures and then blamed the bishops, LOL! The same bishops who they ignore the rest of the time!

      I also have to say, with all due respect, that I dislike your final sentence. That is the sort of thing which is said by people who imply that priests saying the TLM are homosexuals, which is rubbish, of course. No priest “prances around in lace and scarlet Chinese silk” – what a terrible thing to say.

      There is a danger that some people who attend SSPX chapels think that “outside the SSPX there is no salvation” – and that is a heresy. So, I hope you will reconsider your view that only the SSPX “stands up to modernist Rome” – I haven’t seen much of that “standing up” for a very long time! In fact, the SSPX has been almost totally silent since Francis became pope.

      It would be unconscionable if Pope Francis bans SP and reinstates the indult, as is reported in the Rorate article.

      May 25, 2021 at 11:25 pm
      • Athanasius

        Miles & Josephine

        The first thing I would say is that the greater the number of priests who celebrate the true Mass the better, regardless of affiliation with any particular Church institution. When Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart triumphs, as it most assuredly will, the Church will be restored under a holy Pope and that restoration will require many priests trained in, and attached to, the Traditional Latin Mass. In fact, I view the healthy growth in Traditional Mass priests as a signe that Divine Providence is already preparing for the future.

        As for the SSPX, to which I have been attached from the beginning, there are some worrying signs that all is not well at the higher levels of authority. I am no “resistance” person by any means, but it has to declared openly that something has changed with regard to holy zeal in the SSPX. Pope Francis is by far the most destructive Pontiff the Church has ever witnessed, yet the SSPX is almost silent in the matter. Is Menzingen satisfied and silenced with the few little indulgences Francis has accorded it? I can’t answer for sure, I can only say that something has changed – a certain liberal spirit has entered, as we saw recently with the COVID vaccine advice. Still, I think most honest people would agree that without the SSPX the rest wouldn’t exist. The only competition that should exist right now is one between the institutions and priests dedicated to the Mass of the saints and martyrs against the Modernists with their re-vamped Reformation meal service.

        May 26, 2021 at 12:08 am
      • Miles Immaculatae

        I wish I had not made my comment as it was the expression of hurt. I have been betrayed and hurt by people in diocesan TLM groups, and let down by the clergy who run them, and for this reason I would not return. They made it very clear that I was not welcome to return, even if I wanted to.

        I was not intimating that anyone was a homosexual. As it happens, there are homosexuals who attend diocesan Latin Masses, and I have met them. Since you brought up the matter of homosexuality, I suspect that their homosexuality is precisely the reason that they are so viscerally hostile towards me: they are averse to anyone who knows their ‘secret’. These toxic atmospheres I have experienced at diocesan TLMs have put me off for good. I have never experienced this kind of atmosphere at FSSPX Mass centres.

        I was not bought up in the mainstream church, and I only went to the Novus Ordo for two years before I had my ‘second conversion’ to Tradition which was when I came to the FSSPX. Consequently, I do not feel that the mainstream church is my ‘native home’, and I don’t feel at home there. It’s different for other people who comment on this blog, because often the chapels which have the diocesan TLM are the very same chapels they grew up in and first received the sacraments in. Actually, I feel sick when I go into a Novus Ordo chapel, even if it is the TLM that is being offered there, so I don’t go in them, but this is a case of having been hurt too many times in them rather than me adopting a ‘schismatic spirit’.

        Although the individual lay faithful who attend diocesan Masses may be perfectly respectable and holy Catholics, I nevertheless oppose the many Novus Ordo priests who say the TLM as a hobby and who persist in opprobrious criticism of the FSSPX. Had it not been for the FSSPX, there would be no SP. I think these priests do more harm than good for Tradition. They are appropriating the TLM and attempting to recreate it in their own image. I stand by my comment that for many of these Novus Ordo priests, their interest in the TLM is superficial, and they are principally attracted to it for the pomp and the dressing up. The same goes for various diocesan organisations of lay faithful attached to the TLM. It is possible that sincere Catholics may come to Tradition through these groups, and I am happy for them, as I myself was one of these. The first TLM parish I went to was diocesan. Now I will go to Masses where I am more sure of the orthodoxy of the priest who is less likely to commit liturgical abuses as I myself have witnessed at a diocesan TLM, and less likely to preach heterodox morals and doctrine or promote dodgy devotions during his sermon.

        May 26, 2021 at 2:35 am
      • westminsterfly

        MI
        As I mentioned in a previous thread, I go to a diocesan TLM because I have no real choice in the matter (it’s either that or the local N.O. – no thanks!). Very few can reach SSPX chapels. I’m truly sorry you had bad experiences at a diocesan TLM but you can’t judge all of them by what happened to you. I’ve been going to a diocesan TLM for over 20 years and I have never encountered homosexual cliques or experienced any trouble with anyone (apart from an occasion when some mad woman attended the church for a few weeks running, and kept interrupting the Mass and complaining that the Epistle/Gospel wasn’t being read out in English, but then we never saw her again after that). I go into Mass, I quietly prepare for it, I hear Mass (and have never heard a dodgy sermon), I make my thanksgiving and private devotions and then I leave. I don’t do the social side of things so if there were anything untoward going on outside of the Mass, I wouldn’t even know about it. I think there are a lot of people like me who just attend the Mass for the Mass and don’t concern themselves with anything else.

        May 26, 2021 at 9:36 am
      • editor

        MI,

        Since I have only met two of the archdiocesan SP priests (Glasgow) and neither of them preaches unorthodox teaching or promotes dodgy devotions I have no idea to whom you refer when you speak of priests who say the old Mass as a “hobby”. That’s quite a judgment to make, and I doubt that you are correct. In addition, the accusation of “dressing up” is, indeed, as Josephine infers, something I’ve read on one particular homosexual blog. All priests offering the TLM “dress up” since they have to wear the correct attire/vestments, just like barristers/advocates in court have to “dress up” in gown and wig. What is your point?

        As Athanasius says, we should welcome the fact that the traditional Mass is being offered, and remember that Bishop Fellay said, on the publication of SP, that we should support those priests to choose to offer it, make it available to more and more Catholics. I’ve heard of one SP priest who has come to love the old Mass so much that he hasn’t offered the novus ordo for a long time now. Lockdown HAS had its uses!

        The SSPX plays its part but it’s not infallible, not perfect and – in my opinion – does not lead in the current crisis as it should. We’re all grateful for its contribution but those attending the TLM elsewhere are not second class citizens, so to speak. I would urge you to re-think your position on this matter.

        May 26, 2021 at 9:49 am
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Miles I don’t know exactly what your Beef is towards the Latin Mass. As it’s been said by W. F . I also go to the TLMASS for the Mass not Tea Coffee or Hot Cross Buns around about Easter. I know not if your Scottish or not but surely IF you Believe in The One True Faith and don’t just watch the likes of the BBC and read The Daily Record you Must know that the Traditional 2000 Years old Mass is the only true Mass . You surely also must be aware if Your a True Catholic that Francis is Not Nor probably has himself Ever been a Catholic. Also you must be aware that the New Mass was really originally set up for Protestants. The fact that the Body of Christ up until that point was only given out by Consecrated Hands is further proof. Also you must have heard or even seen of the Terrible Abuse to the Eucharist , such as Hosts being stuck under seats Etc, this was actually preached in Motherwell Cathedral by the Parish Priest their nearly 20 Years ago. It is also well known that Satanists go to the Novus Ordo and take the Hosts away with them to Have Black Masses . I was told many years ago that the Satanic Priests doing these Filthy Practices can pick out a Consecrated Host from 50 Non Consecrated Hosts I do not know if you yourself are aware of this . If not then know now that Satan Hates the Latin Mass for many many reasons. As for Feelings of Betrayal and Hurt . None of us has been betrayed like Our Lord Jesus Christ. We go or should go to Mass for only one reason as Catholics, to adore The Triune God and if possible to receive the Eucharist. As any Good Holy Priest will tell you it is what sets us apart from any of the over 30,000 Protestant Sects. As for your comments on the Priests Vestments. I suggest you get hold of a Pre Novus Ordo Missal which will explain what their all for , am not saying that YOU do not know but Many Catholics are not even aware of the Significance of A Priests Cassock and of the Buttons. As a P.S in my own Parish many do not like Our Good Priest ,I say to them that He’s not here to be liked or disliked ,but to do his Job Faithfully and be a Catholic Priest.

        May 26, 2021 at 4:45 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        FOOF,
        You have misunderstood me. I am not opposed to the TLM. I attend the TLM exclusively and have stopped going to the NO.

        May 26, 2021 at 9:22 pm
      • Athanasius

        Miles

        Sadly, the SSPX has not been immune to this problem. Many years ago two young men were welcomed with open arms into our Edinburgh and Glasgow churches. They were both into music and pretty fanatical about Gregorian chant. Of course they were utilised to the full in this respect to put the faithful through endless hours of oos and ahs, sometimes harmonious, often pathetic, with the blessing of non-discerning priests and other individuals of like mind and zero talent.

        Ultimately, after many years of this, one recently-arrived American SSPX priest caught wind of rumours that the pair were living together as a homosexual couple. He confronted them privately with what he had heard and asked them to confirm or deny the story. Their reaction was to storm out of the church, taking with them some candlesticks from the altar which they had previously gifted, and never returned. One of them gave an interview with an Edinburgh newspaper some years later slating the Church for its “intolerance” towards homosexuality, thereby confirming the truth of what had been said about him and his flatmate.

        When I think back to the esteem they were held in by the Gregorian chant fanatics, it does alarm me that small congregations can so easily be infiltrated in this way.

        In general I disagree with notion that priests like to prance around in Chinese silk, etc.., but there is a little truth in what you say, especially when it comes to Gregorian chant fanaticism on the part of a few priests and lay people who disdain the low Mass and rarely, if ever, demonstrate any attachment to simple Catholic pious customs like the recitation of the rosary, Stations of the Cross, Novena devotions, etc.

        One wonders if it’s the theatrics of the sung Mass they are drawn to more than any supernatural motive. The Church encourages Gregorian chant, no question about that, but she also insists that it should be with perfectly formed and trained choirs, lest the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice be degraded and the faithful scandalised.

        Just a few thought now on the sung Mass in general:

        There are only two forms of the Mass, the Pontifical High Mass (celebrated with clerical deacon and sub-deacon in assistance to the celebrant at the altar) and the low Mass – the “Missa Lecta”, celebrated by the priest in full audible tone (apart from the Canon) for the faithful to follow and unite with.

        The sung Masses of today are generally a 19th century innovation which, for many years, a number of bishops were reluctant to endorse. The use of incence, for example, was at first banned and women were excluded from the choir for the obvious reason that the choir forms part of the liturgical action of the Church, which is a male only function by divine institution.

        Following WWII, Pius XII made an exception to the general rule by allowing women in the choir “where there is a dearth of men and boys”. We have to understand this exceptional ruling in the context of the millions of men who had died in the war. At any rate, even Pius XII declared that were women were used in choirs, they should be separated from the men in order to avoid the least scandal.

        This together with the many teachings of Pius’ predecessors on the absolute necessity of properly trained choirs, “to ensure the integrity of the Sacrifice” is more or less condemnatory of those priests today who trample Papal teaching in order to satisfy their own personal attraction to Gregorian chant. Indeed some even trample the cultural traditions of nations by imposing this form of Mass on faithful who did not experience it at parish level pre-Council.

        I can tell you from personal experience that I have been completely turned against Gregorian chant as a result of the badly sung Masses I have been exposed to over the years. It is precisely what the Popes warned of and I now understand perfectly why they insisted on sublime singing and no less. I heard one such Mass in the church of Jesu et Maria in Rome a few years ago and it was heavenly, really did llift my soul heavenwards, but that’s the only one out of hundreds.

        My preference is for what Catholics in this country were used to before Vatican II, the low Mass wherein one can unite with Our Lord in silence at the foot of the Cross with Our Lady and without distraction. If they insist on imposing Sung Masses then let them at least follow the Church’s very strict rules on choir formation and training so that the faithful may have their hearts rather than their ire raised.

        And let them be vigilant when it comes to who is admitted to a choir. Choir members should be regarded for their piety, especially devoted to Our Lady, and committed to regular practice. Otherwise the wrong types will get in and the results will be disastrous.

        May 26, 2021 at 5:23 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Athanasius what a great post. I once had a discussion with a so called Anglican Protestant about the True Faith. These were Her words ” I sing in the Choir and love it but i dont Believe in God.” In other words we know She went for the wrong reasons. Now we know that Very Many of us go to various things for the wrong reasons ,but stay or go back for the right ones. Myself being a perfect example, although what i went back to had nothing to do with Catholicism. The reason though i mention this particular Woman, was She said She had been going to the Church Choir for years, yet never believed in God. In other words going to a Frank Patterson concert ( at least when He was alive ) Certainly didnt make one a good Catholic.

        May 26, 2021 at 6:45 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        FOOF,

        I should imagine a few folk at TLMs are FARPers, as you describe. For them it’s like going to the opera, without having to pay for a ticket. There is nothing wrong with these people coming to Mass, and I am happy that they come, because in God’s mysterious plan, it might lead them to conversion. What annoys me is when these people take charge of churches, and start bossing other people about.

        May 26, 2021 at 9:20 pm
      • Athanasius

        FOOF

        You raise a very interesting point, which is that some people, hopefully a minority, involve themselves with Gregorian choirs for the love of the music more than any real love for the Mass.

        I certainly know of a couple of examples of non-Catholics participating in the singing of the Mass in Traditional churches, which is quite scandalous. I am also aware of some cases of Catholics attending sung Masses only – never seen at low Masses when they can’t carry their large Libres with them to look important!

        It all comes back to the priests in the end – if individual clergy have a fixation with Gregorian chant then it usually results in all rules and regulations will be trampled to satisfy their personal whim.

        May 26, 2021 at 11:49 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Athanasius,

        Unfortunately, some ‘Traditional’ Catholic choirs I have encountered have been social cliques, and I was excluded from them for this reason. I was not initially invited, and when I asked to join, I was turned down. This kind of behaviour among some TLM folk offends me. If they like the pomp of Missa cantata and solemn Mass, then why don’t they go to the opera? I love opera and I pay to go to operas. Mass, for me, is a totally different thing. These affected and insufferably middle class types will do nothing but turn ordinary people away from Traditional Catholicism. It’s more a problem among millennials and genZs. They have an affected manner of speech and dress, and are socially elitist, and are almost always emotionally crippled in some way, either they are autistic, or are closeted homosexuals, or a just oddballs. Why don’t they just become Freemasons? Or start their own secret societies in their provate homes? I don’t see why they should be able to use the Church as a venue for their fraternities. As I explained above, these people have put me off ever going back to a Summorum Pontificum Mass ever again. I actually sympathise with Pope Francis when he said that these people are attached to a fad. I agree with him. For them, it is a fad, and I don’t believe that they will remain in Tradition. They will skittle of back to the Novus Ordo once they get bored with it and take up a new hobby. In the meantime they will have turned many souls away from authentic tradition. It’s an age thing. I am in my early 30s, so it’s unlikely the other readers have encountered such people to the extent that I have.

        The SSPX and diocesan Latin Mass groups in Scotland do not provide liturgical musical training for lay Catholics. I would love to be formed in the musical tradition of the Roman Rite, but unfortunately, I have had to teach myself. Being an autodidact is unsatisfactory. I suppose I could go to a monestary for a year or two to learn the correct interpretation of chant, but that’s hardly a noble reason to join a religious order, is it not? People should only attend monestaries for an authentic vocation, and not just to learn music. The Church needs to train children in singing and music theory from a young age. If the Church wants to preserve the liturgy, then it must invest in the singers and servers and priests of the future, with proper formation. I agree with you. We need more properly trained choirs.

        May 26, 2021 at 9:16 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Miles as i said before i still dont understand your Beef what is it to you whether someone likes you or doesnt like you after all Mass is not a Popularity contest ,if it were i can assure you i would have been banned many times especially in my Town. Al put it another way, if this scamdemic Ever goes away and i live into a ripe old age their wont be many at my Funeral. In fact as i have asked my much younger Parish Priest than me to make sure i get a Latin Requiem Mass said, probably the few who do turn up will wish they hadnt. As one much older and much wiser than yourself please take this to Heart. When you stand, really stand at the Turning Point in your life you will ,have a Decision to make .Either go Gods way or go Mans way ,we cannot have both. For me it was a simple decision as no MAN and i mean no MAN wanted to know me Jesus Christ through daily Mass ( as i was unemployable at the time ) and His blessed Mother were the only ones who liked me. No am wrong as they were the only ones who really loved me. Sometimes their comes a time if you act like i did ( which i hope not ) even your own earthly Family can say . Enough is enough.

        May 26, 2021 at 10:43 pm
      • editor

        FOOF,

        I’ll be at your funeral if you go before me. And I hope you’ll be at mine, if I go first, because you’ll be part of a very select group, be assured, and it has nothing to do with the size of any church. They won’t need a cathedral for my funeral, that’s for sure. In fact, if it were the new Mass (which it won’t be – over my dead body, so to speak) you’d be invited to do the readings, take up the offertory (and the collection 😀 ) and lead the singing of… Faith of our Fathers, what else?!

        Oh dear, fancy planning our funerals at this time of night. You’ll be the death of me… 😀

        https://www.usurnsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/mortician-humor-last-legs.jpg

        May 26, 2021 at 11:32 pm
      • Athanasius

        Editor

        This nothing wrong with a good old uplifting conversation about one’s funeral, it’s a good antidote to the lockdown misery!

        Or we could talk about the popularity of cemeteries – they tell me people are dying to get into them!

        May 27, 2021 at 1:25 am
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Martin i stayed beside a Cemetery for a few years and it was always sobering to walk through it at night and read the headstones. As our Parish Priest said a few weeks ago about a Church in Rome ( i know not which one ) where its all skulls that surround it and theirs a saying I once sat exactly where your sitting–or words to that effect. We know that we have no everlasting City here and walking through a cemetery certainly makes one feel very insignificant Am in my 70s now and its amazing how fast time ( if their is such a thing ) really does Fly. Of course am talking of time as Man thinks of it. Maybe for a different thread but i think its stupid actually the way so called Expert Scientists Etc talk about TIME. Maybe they should have read about how a Wise Old Priest defined Eternity. If A Bird Had To Fly from Here to Africa with ONE grain of sand Fly back for another Grain and Empty all of our Beaches. Then Fly back from Africa with a Grain of sand and Empty all of their Beaches then after that Eternity Begins. I bet their was a long line for Confession after his Sermon on Eternity.

        May 27, 2021 at 4:45 pm
      • Athanasius

        Miles

        Yes, I do recognise this kind of cliquish and middle-class snobbery you refer to – it’s not uncommon in nonentities who desire recognition that would never be given in the world. Thankfully, many Catholics who join choirs are just ordinary good people who mean well. The musical training, however, is a definite issue. Unless the problem is resolved then certain priests must forego their fixation for the sung Mass. The integrity of the Holy Sacrifice and the faith of the people demands one or the other.

        May 26, 2021 at 11:43 pm
      • editor

        MI,

        I have received the following email(s) this morning, from someone who is a member of the Glasgow SSPX choir:

        I had a read through some of the recent comments on your blog yesterday. It was interesting to read some of the comments, but I felt I had to write to correct something a contributor said about the SSPX not providing training for singers in the UK.

        This is not at all true. Fr Wall held rehearsals every Saturday morning for over a year. More recently, Fr Hanappier has been holding rehearsals. These have had a positive impact. Certainly, the singing isn’t perfect, but it’s improving. This is down to the training we have received.

        Feel free to ignore this email, or quote from it if you so wish. I have no preference. I simply want to correct that falsehood. It’s a curious one, because the person who wrote that has attended most of the training. Ends.

        I replied that I thought the commentator probably meant there was a need for professional training, not simply rehearsals, and asked the writer to confirm that he still wished publication of his message. He replied as follows:

        No, I’m happy for you to publish. I don’t know of any parish that would provide professional training. I've just read the Motu Proprio of St Pius X which encourages a revival in Gregorian chant. That revival would never happen if it relied on professional training. Fr Wall and Fr Hanappier are very competent musicians and provide training, not merely rehearsals. Ends.

        Keep it polite, folks, if you choose to reply – I’m busy today trying to upgrade my zero cooking skills, so learning how to sing is not my top priority right now. Working out how to prevent my kitchen burning down is top of the list. Who would believe that boiling eggs could be so difficult! Keep Calm & Blog Politely… 😀

        PS … The person who has emailed is not free to blog here, and I am not prepared to run a private blog, so he has had his say, and I hope that any replies will be accepted by him in good faith. I can’t get into a “he said/she said” or “he said/he replied” scenario. Gimme a break…

        May 27, 2021 at 12:00 pm
      • Athanasius

        Editor

        I would simply say in response to this correspondent that the Church DOES require trained musicians to form choirs. In the old days, before Vatican II, these were obviously more readily available. I am not aware that Frs. Hannapier or Wall are trained musicians, or indeed competent choir masters. Improved singing is not sufficient to fulfill the Church’s rules on singing the Mass, which is supposed to be pitch perfect in order to prevent scandal. Our choirs, though they do their best, are nowhere near the proper standard and should not therefore be singing the Mass – that’s the teaching of the Popes. Women in the choir is another matter that should be seriously considered by Traditional Catholics, as should cultural norms in this country. It was NOT our Catholic culture pre-Council to have sung Masses imposed on parishes. The Modernists trample culture, not Traditionalists.

        May 27, 2021 at 12:28 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Father Wall is a talented musician and Fr Hannapier is competent at chant, even though he is not a ‘chant specialist’. I am horrified that my comments might be interpreted as criticism against either of these two priests or any member of the choir.

        The reality is this: had I not trained myself, I would not be able to sing in the choir at Saint Andrew’s. The training I have received at Saint Andrew’s, of which I am most thankful to have received, very thankful, is still not sufficient to form a singer from scratch. One must learn the pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin, the rhythmic values of neums, clefs, modes etc. None of this has been systematically taught at Saint Andrew’s, which is not a criticism of any priest, no, it is merely an observation.

        May 27, 2021 at 8:03 pm
      • RCAVictor

        A & E,

        I think both of you have touched upon the key points here: first, a rehearsal is not training. Second, the vast majority of priests are not qualified to train singers.

        To which I would add, an audition should be a requirement for anyone wishing to join a parish choir. Can they sing on pitch? Do they know how to breathe? Do they sing through their nose? (bad news) What is their proper placement: for the women, alto or soprano? For the men, bass or tenor? Can they sing Latin? Can they read music – Gregorian notation or otherwise?

        (Not to mention these key points: does the director know how to direct chant? And does the director know how to conduct modern notation?)

        I’m speaking from experience: our former parish choir was shut down due to the pandemic. However, that was a huge blessing, because, as we used to say in New York, they couldn’t sing their way out of a paper bag. In fact, we lost a wonderful choir director who was eminently qualified, because he had nothing to work with.

        A major part of the problem was that whoever wanted to sing, showed up and was considered a choir member. As a result, we had monotones, nose-singers, misplaced singers, flat singers, half-deaf singers – a veritable funhouse of cringe-worthiness.

        The situation is much better now, since we are only using a quartet, all of whom have excellent voices, but more training is needed. Professional training, I hasten to add…

        May 27, 2021 at 3:46 pm
      • Athanasius

        RCAVictor

        Exquisitely put! Your tragic parish experience (pre-lockdown) resonates exactly with my own, which is sadly ongoing. But what can we do if the priests themselves do not follow the rules of the Popes? You’re just going to have a conglomeration of well-meaning people inflicting vocal murder on the ears of the faithful.

        May 27, 2021 at 5:52 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        I am presently taking singing lessons with a opera graduate of the Royal Scottish Conservatoire. I would absolutely love to receive lessons in Gregorian chant, and I would pay for them. No such lessons, according to my present knowledge, are available to me. They don’t exist. I personally believe that courses for laity in Gregorian chant should exist, just as there exist courses in Catholic theology and canon law for laypersons. The Anglicans have there own specialist centre for the study of Church music, the Royal School of Church music, and consequently, Anglican music culture in Great Britain is superior to the Catholics, except perhaps in a handful of places.

        If an SSPX priests was willing to give me one-to-one lessons in the proper interpretation and theory of chant, I would pay him. I have never asked, so I will right now.

        If my detractor believes that what we have received in rehearsals is comprehensive ‘training’ in chant, then he has low standards. Let me clear, very clear, that this is not a criticism of our rehearsals, no, it is an observation of reality: the Catholic Church is not organised enough to give the laity a thorough education in the music of the Roman Rite. I actually believe it should be taught in Catholic schools along with Latin and catechism and convention music education.

        May 27, 2021 at 7:57 pm
      • RCAVictor

        Editor,

        I’ve heard of the “boiled frog syndrome,” but the boiled egg syndrome?

        May 27, 2021 at 3:48 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        Seeing is believing. My history at the cooker, is second to none. Anyway, I managed to get on top of the egg boiling today, and I got good marks for my lesson on how how to fry and flip an egg.

        I’m feeling quite proud, really, because I used to be terrible at boiling AND frying eggs… Check out the clip below. As you will see, I’m improving all the time.

        Don’t be fooled by my teacher’s voice in the background. He’s secretly very pleased with my progress, just doesn’t want me to become big-headed…

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mQmKHgjUI

        May 27, 2021 at 9:24 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        ED its amazing how many People do not know how to Boil an Egg correctly and Cheaply. 1 -water cannot be heated more than 100 degrees Fahrenheit -.2 heat the egg up in the water till water boils -3 -then turn heat off and leave egg in boiled water for four minutes ,and Walla a perfectly boiled egg. Not only that your saving the Whales. Well maybe not the Whales but you get my drift.

        May 27, 2021 at 10:39 pm
      • RCAVictor

        Ed,

        You’ll always be a good egg in my book…which is coming out any day now, as soon as I write Chapter 1…

        May 28, 2021 at 4:13 pm
      • Athanasius

        RCAVictor

        You always managed to put a smile on my face with those witty comments.

        May 28, 2021 at 5:13 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        Maybe this’ll help…

        https://i.pinimg.com/originals/27/15/6b/27156b8c3378e3748526d0960712ce62.jpg

        Athanasius,

        There’s no reply button at your latest comment which is really a very underhand way of saying that RCA Victor’s witty comments are funnier than MY witty comments – lucky for you that I’m the humble type and don’t take insults personally. I won’t strike back, not me. Not moi. I was taught to always wish good things on my enemies. So, in that spirit, allow me to say…

        https://i.pinimg.com/736x/cf/8c/47/cf8c476a3a07bad3646731d39fc29efd.jpg

        😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

        May 28, 2021 at 5:52 pm
      • Athanasius

        Editor

        My profound apologies for that – your witty comments are just as smile generating as RCAVictors. And I’m a crawler!

        May 28, 2021 at 7:23 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Ed,

        I wish to clarify exactly what I meant by ‘training’. I did not mean ‘education’. I did not mean ‘rehearsals’. I have been to many rehearsal and the recent rehearsals are great, and I love going to rehearsals, because I love Gregorian chant and I love singing at Mass. I did not intend to intimate that the rehearsals offered by Saint Andrew’s are deficient in any way.

        I was referring to lack of formal programmes of education available to laypersons in the theory and interpretation of Gregorian chant which would necessarily include the study of chant semiology, and possibly cheironomy. This has not been systematically taught to me during our rehersals, However, this is not a complaint, because I would not expect the clergy of the FSSPX to provide such training. I would be happy to pay for such training myself, if only such teachers or formal programmes are available.

        I could go to Solesmes to study chant, and I know of one practitioner of chant who has done this. I could go and stay at one of the SSPX Benedictine houses, Bellaigue or Reichenstein. However, I do not, as far as I am aware, have a vocation to become a Benedictine. Formal education in Gregorian chant, according to my knowledge, is not available outside of Traditional seminaries and Traditional monasteries, and there are very few of these in the world (and none in the United Kingdom, where I reside). I have an honours degree in music, and I briefly studied historically informed performance practice, but I not even encounter the Gregorian repertory at all during my studies. The reality is that that critical study of the analysis, theory and performance practice of the cantus tradition, is only available to laypersons in one centre of musicological research in France, Centre d’Etudes Supérieures de la Renaissance in Tours.

        The only option is to self-teach, and very many Traditional Catholic priests and laity have had to become autodidacts in order to serve, sing and offer the Traditional Latin Mass, because this knowledge was largely lost after the Council. In fact, Gregorian chant was not prolifically indigenous in a majority of parochial Catholic churches even before the Council.

        FSSPX seminarians sing the office and Mass everyday for six years, and during their seminary programme they receive music classes as part of their linguistic, philosophical, and theological studies. I was told this by a priest of the FSSX. That is what I consider comprehensive training in a music tradition which is as venerable, ancient and sophisticated as Gregorian chant. Our rehearsals have not barely covered 0.01% of what there is to know about chant. Again, let me reiterate, lest I be taken out of context, that I am not criticising our rehearsals. I am just pointing out that my detractor is exaggerating the intensity of training which we receive during choir practice.

        The only chant training session I am aware of which took place in England was organised by the Latin Mass Society which is a separate organisation from the FSSPX.

        I would like to reiterate that in no way whatsoever may my comments on this blog be construed as criticism against the FSSPX, the clergy of the FSSPX, Saint Andrew’s Church, nor the choir of Saint Andrew’s church. I hope that the person who emailed this blog would read this comment I am writing now. I would like to also point out there is a talented musician at Saint Andrew’s, a professional singer, who would sing in the choir, and I have asked him if he would join. His reply to me was that he was not adequately trained. For example, I was not trained to pronounce ecclesiastical Latin in any rehearsals, I learned this myself, I learned sight-singing and interval training and Solfège as part of my conventional education in music. None of these things has ever been taught during rehearsals.

        I am not clericalist. I believe that the Sacred Sciences and all that the Holy Catholic Church believes, confesses, and practices, cannot, and must not remain secret and arcane knowledge for a special clerical class. On the contrary, all Catholics, regardless of their vocation, are required by God, to educate themselves about the faith as much as their intelligence, talents, and the ordinary duties of their life permit them. All adult Catholics, at the very least, must learn their catechism, the fundamental prayers of the Church, and the manner of assisting at assisting at Holy Mass, and this is the bare minimum. Therefore, I will continue to educate myself about the music of the Roman Rite. I feel that I have a duty to teach myself far more that what I learn in rehearsal, far more. Again, let me reiterate, this is not a criticism of the rehearsals, nor an accusation that the rehearsals are deficient in any way.

        Furthermore, if any person in the choir has criticism to make of my comments on this blog, may that person speak with me in person when I am next at choir practice. No such person has yet criticised my comments on this blog directly to me, and I have only learned of their criticism by means of hearsay.

        May 27, 2021 at 7:43 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Ed,

        You quote the following correspondence:

        “I don’t know of any parish that would provide professional training. I’ve just read the Motu Proprio of St Pius X which encourages a revival in Gregorian chant. That revival would never happen if it relied on professional training.”

        In response to this person, I reply thus:

        Firstly, I have received musical training, at university level. It is chiefly on account of this musical training that I am able to sing in the choir. Had I not received this training, I assure you, I would not be capable of singing in the choir at Saint Andrew’s, or at the very least, I would be a weaker member of the choir. And this is in spite of the ‘training’ I have received during choir practice at Saint Andrew’s.

        Secondly, two of the other members of the choir, who also happen to be the two other strongest members of the choir, have received a certain degree of musical training: one to Scottish Higher level (possibly advanced higher, I can’t remember); and another, spent four years in a Traditional religious order which used the Vatican Edition in their conventual liturgies. This proves that a degree of formal and systematic musical training is necessary to interpret the Gregorian repertoire, at least to an elementary standard, which is hardly surprising since it is sophisticated music requiring a quantifiable degree of technical proficiency.

        I was not permitted to sing in the choir at the TLM at Immaculate Heart in Glasgow, and the reason given for this is that I would be required to have “excellent sight-reading of Gregorian and modern notation […] in addition to well established vocal technique” and I was not perceived to have attained this. Logically, it follows that whatever training I have received both inside and outside of the Church, has not been robust enough to meet the taxing standards of Una Voce Scotland, whose musical director is also the choir master at Immaculate Heart. (As it happens, this is not true, because at least two of the choir members at IH do not meet the standard specified, and therefore, I deduce that there is another reason I was not permitted to sing in the choir there, although this reason was not disclosed to me, by neither the parish priest, nor the choir master).

        Thirdly, Catholic schools, or at least Catholic grammar schools and minor seminaries, should teach the fundamentals of theory and interpretation of the music of the Roman Rite, which is, pre-eminently, the chant contained in the ‘Vatican Edition’. Not all young people will have the aptitude, some assuredly will claim, but I reply with the following objection: I was bad at PE, hopelessly bad, but I still had to do it, until I was 16 years old. All Catholic schools should teach catechism, and Catholic grammar schools and minor seminaries should also teach Latin, and the basics of Thomistic metaphysics, in addition to music. If I went to a Catholic grammar school and wasn’t taught this, I would consider it to be a mediocre Catholic grammar school/minor seminary.

        In the middle ages, music was one of the liberal arts, and formation in music was considered necessary before one was permitted to advance to study of the Sacred Sciences. Much in the same way, one needs an A-level (or equivalent) in chemistry to get into medical school. This is how highly the Church has regarded musical education in the past.

        May 27, 2021 at 9:15 pm
      • editor

        MI,

        I’ve just read this post from you – I’m afraid I’m not sufficiently musically educated myself to be able to respond in any meaningful way, but let me say that I’m glad we’ve managed to secure your talent; Balornock’s loss is our gain!

        In my own musical defence, I have to announce that I did learn to play the violin at primary school and I was also able to play the piano by ear. That was painful but I got plenty of standing ovations at home when I played for the family. It was an unusual kind of standing ovation – my parents and siblings would stand in a line and slowly move out of the room, one at a time, still applauding. 😀

        May 28, 2021 at 12:22 am
      • RCAVictor

        Editor,

        I tried playing the piano by ear once, but my earlobes weren’t stiff enough to depress the keys…

        May 28, 2021 at 4:15 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        You obviously needed more lessons – try this book…

        https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9St26QXIpOI/maxresdefault.jpg

        May 28, 2021 at 6:00 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Ed,

        My anonymous detractor claims the following:

        “I don’t know of any parish that would provide professional training.”

        Here is the website of the Academy of Sacred Music, a Scottish Charitable Incorporated Organisation (SC042852) which has performed (according to my knowledge) in churches belonging to at least two Scottish dioceses, Glasgow and Paisley. This organisation rehearsed in Turnbull Hall, the University of Glasgow ‘Catholic’ Chaplaincy [sic.] with the apparent intention of training young musicians for the performance of music in the service of the Novus Ordo liturgy.

        https://www.aosm.org.uk/

        May 27, 2021 at 11:09 pm
      • editor

        MI,

        Yes, the novus ordo parish priests do go out of their way to ensure musical expertise. In my youth (WHAT a memory!) my then PP asked if I would be willing to attend organ lessons – the parish would pay. A brand new organ was being installed in the church.

        He’d seen the piano in our house and heard that I could play by ear (very painful, people did say I should use my hands) so he was probably trying to kill two birds with one stone: rescue my poor parents from the torture of listening to me hammering out Scotland the Brave, while at the same time providing the parish with a slim, glamorous, witty, intelligent, fashionable, highly talented, brand new organist.

        Didn’t happen. I politely refused his generous offer. I can’t remember why – probably for the same reason that I still can’t cook – laziness 😀

        May 28, 2021 at 12:31 am
  • RCAVictor Reply

    Here is the text of a Feb. 19, 2020 letter from Abp. Roche, sent to all bishops, attacking the TLM:

    https://gloria.tv/post/HWHsvJEtybf72mQnL6k7E2wKx

    Kind of hard to read (magnification needed), but obviously this prelate is a totally disoriented creature of Vatican II, spouting all the long-discredited rubbish that has sent the Church into auto-demolition. Perfect choice for a Francis Prefect, and any other promotions the enemy within can dream up.

    May 26, 2021 at 1:46 pm
    • editor Reply

      RCA Victor,

      I visited that link – and as WF notes, clicked on the page to make it enlarge, so read it without any trouble… Unfortunately.

      It’s a joke. Fifty years on and the new “liturgy” which Roche is raving about has emptied the churches, as you imply.

      The wholly negative attitude to the TLM is incredible. They must be nonplussed at the very idea that younger priests want to learn it and offer it.

      May 26, 2021 at 6:01 pm
  • westminsterfly Reply

    RCAVictor
    If you click on the text of that document, it enlarges it to full size.

    May 26, 2021 at 4:41 pm
    • editor Reply

      WF and RCA Victor (and all!)

      I have just received the following in my inbox…

      Paix Liturgique Newsletter

      Letter 116 – 26 May 2021

      IS SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM IN JEOPARDY?

      DANGER COMES FOR BENEDICT XVI’s GREAT CONTRIBUTION

      Warning signs have been multiplying of late when it comes to Summorum Pontificum: the majority of the Italian episcopate and of Curial heavyweights—particularly the Secretariat of State—have convinced the Pope that the traditionalization of young clergy is “preoccupying” and that the “right to the traditional Mass” as instituted through Benedict XVI’s motu proprio is an attack on Vatican II.

      Last Pentecost Monday, the first day of the of the meeting of the Italian Bishops’ Conference (the CEI), the pope starting out by giving the Italian bishops a talking-to for dragging their feet in implementing a generalized state of synod in the Italian church. Indeed, they consider it to be too expensive and utterly useless. An old man’s hobbyhorse, some say.

      And then, once the reporters were out of the assembly hall, the pope broached a topic that is a matter of consensus among many Italian bishops: detestation of Summorum Pontificum. Francis confirmed the upcoming release of a document he had been urged to put together to “reinterpret” Benedict XVI’s motu proprio. Indeed, its publication was long in coming, because the document in question seems to have met with objections and delays, particularly from Cardinal Ladaria and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They pointed out that it would cause troubles and an unmanageable opposition throughout the world. Nevertheless, the Secretariat of State has apparently been pushing for the release of this text. Its basic terms appear to be the following:

      – those communities that celebrate according to the older form would be able to continue to do so;
      – on the other hand, from now on diocesan priests would have to obtain a specific permission.

      Clearly this document, which is inapplicable in many countries including France, will first of all be symbolic: to turn the celebration of the traditional Mass from a right into a tolerated exception.

      Anti-traditional-Mass pressure groups at the University San Anselmo, at the Curia, and within the Italian Conference of Bishops are thus dragging the pope into a major political mistake: the latent discontent of an entire segment of Catholics with fuzzy doctrine, with weak responses to German abuses, and with ever more disconcerting declarations (to say the least), is now threatening to turn into a veritable outbreak of “Enough already!” Instead of trying to understand what an entire living part of the Christian people feels and aspires to, they’re pushing it to despair and exasperation.

      Peace in the Church, especially the liturgical peace to which Benedict XVI had contributed so much with his liberating and wise text, is now being deliberately torn down: a return to the worst years of the post-conciliar age is brewing.

      Battle ahead…

      May 26, 2021 at 4:59 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        I like the bit Ed were it says that –Non Catholic Bishops are dragging a Non Catholic 33rd Degree Freemason Pope into an Anti Catholic Political Mistake—Well of course they couldnt possibly print The Truth could they, at least not at the Moment. BTW is Peters Pence about due ,not that al be putting a Penny into it ,in fact if i get the chance i may take Money out ,providing of course theirs actually some in it .

        May 26, 2021 at 7:02 pm
    • westminsterfly Reply

      Abp Roche in rainbow ‘beanie’ hat. Don’t tell me he’s into the rainbow stuff as well . . . https://gloria.tv/post/u9mwFRGJUMaW3LUCvMW8fXsoL Whatever happened to age-appropriate clothing?

      May 28, 2021 at 10:58 am
      • Athanasius

        Westminsterfly

        Well it would certainly explain his hatred of the Mass of the saints and martyrs, would it not? Where there’s a hatred of the Traditional Latin Mass, there’s Lucifer in the soul.

        May 28, 2021 at 1:35 pm
  • gabriel syme Reply

    Regarding Francis and the expected attack on SP: I will take these rumours with a pinch of salt, (the traditional movement does love a panic), but from the little I have heard, the alleged plan is to allow diocesan priests who already offer the TLM to continue doing so, but to prevent anyone new learning it.

    Presumably (if true) they think they can strangle the Mass slowly this time, after the original effort to quickly kill it failed so manifestly.

    I am sure the tolerance of the current trained priests would be the official line, and they would be harassed to stop behind the scenes.

    Ultimately, who cares what Francis says or does? No-one. What practical relevance does it have to anything? None.

    Yes, he is the Pope, but he is an irrelevant old fool and good for nothing. He and many of his generation of clergy have run the Church into the ground. Even the modern Church they have created has no use for them: it ignores them – even Francis, as Pope – and simply does what it wants, like the other protestants. (See for example homosexual activist James Martin, or the German Bishops).

    Francis has no relevance to anything and simply exists in a 1970s echo chamber where he and his friends sit talking to themselves about talking to themselves. “synods on synodality” etc. No-one could care less what they do or say, Catholic or not.

    Let the old fool sit in his ivory tower, imagining the Catholic world is hanging on his every world. None of his tripe is taken seriously by anyone – and no wonder. People could scarcely be less interested in him. See how, for years, Vatican media has had to report on his activities using extreme close up of St Peters square, trying to hide the fact no-one is there beyond a handful of curious tourists.

    Francis and those like him are good for nothing. They hate Catholicism and have spent their entire careers trying to undermine and sabotage it. They are an embarrassment to the Catholic Church, impostors whose vocation has amounted to being a free meal ticket for life.

    What will change, substantially, if such a document does appear? Nothing. The novus ordo Church will continue to tank and faithful Catholics will still seek out the TLM, regardless of who offers it.

    For all the relevance he has, Francis would be as well issuing a document saying we have to stop going to the TLM or he will scream and scream and wet his pants in rage.

    These men are a joke, no-one should get overly-excited by what ever drivel emanates from them.

    Instead, let us take courage and be of good cheer! 🙂

    May 26, 2021 at 5:00 pm
    • editor Reply

      Gabriel Syme,

      I don’t see any “panic” here – I’m certainly not panicked. Nothing even surprises me any more, let alone causes me to panic.

      As for “rumours” – let’s hope so but the sources reporting this are normally quite reliable.

      If the “rumours” / reports are true, then I’m afraid it’s not just going to be a case of tolerating those who are already offering the old Mass but preventing new priests from learning it – no, it’s a return to the previous system where a priest had to obtain his bishop’s permission to offer the TLM. And it was seldom given. That is precisely why Pope Benedict published SP and specifically stated that this permission was no longer required. It was a condition of the SSPX (before agreeing to talks with the Vatican) that the Mass be freed up, so to speak, so that any priest who chose to do so, could offer it, and make it available to the people. That is what enraged the bishops and liberals. It is, essentially, why he was forced to resign.

      As for “who pays attention to Francis?” The above including the Scottish Bishops – big time. They were among the first to publish a notice on their website to the effect that there was no call for the TLM in Scotland so they didn’t see SP being implemented here.

      No need to panic, but let’s not minimise the problem for those who may find themselves unable to attend a TLM, unless they live within reach of an SSPX church.

      Me? Take courage and be of good cheer? You kidding? I’ve just run out of chocolate, for goodness sake 😀

      May 26, 2021 at 6:10 pm
      • RCAVictor

        GS & E,

        I can’t disagree with Gabriel Syme’s assessment of this Pope, but in all his wicked irrelevance he still controls the levers of institutional power, either directly or through his homosexual henchmen. Case in point: Fr. Altman.

        As for SP, as far as I am aware, most bishops simply ignored it and required priests to have their permission anyway. As for how many traditional-leaning priests have ignored their bishops in this matter, I couldn’t say.

        Time will tell, I suppose, how much these evil machinations will affect the status quo, but I think it will mostly serve to intensify the growing anarchy and schism in the Church – a situation that would serve the enemy within well.

        Here’s the new model of the enemy’s church: a pope who is widely despised but who serves his globalist masters well and uses his power as a bully pulpit. You know, just like the situation in Communist countries…

        May 26, 2021 at 7:13 pm
      • editor

        RCA Victor,

        What do you mean, you “can’t disagree with Gabriel Syme…” ?

        You disagree with me, plenty. You need to keep away from those cliff edges…

        http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/funny-pictures-cartoon-man-falling-off-cliff1.jpg

        Seriously, I do agree with your assessment – if SP is weakened or abolished, the anarchy within the Church will only intensify.

        We may, though, see some brave priests standing up in public, at long last, to say “enough is enough”. Mind you, whether they will know how to say that in Latin, is another matter. I’ll not accept anything less…. 😀

        May 27, 2021 at 9:00 pm
      • gabriel syme

        RCA Victor,

        It is true that Francis represents authority in the Church.

        Although, of course, the modern Church is extremely dysfunctional has has not had any real functioning authority for decades.

        If he tried to abrogate or stymie SP, all it would take would be for one bold Bishop (say, +Schneider) to point out that when the Vatican says XYZ, the German Bishops ignore it and simply do as they please.

        And so, other Catholics will also do as they please. Furthermore, did Francis not specifically ask people to “make a mess”?

        What could he say in response? Any come back would broadcast outrageous double standards which not even the most dim witted Catholic could deny!

        May 27, 2021 at 9:06 pm
      • editor

        Gabriel Syme,

        Fantastic points from you! Yes, of COURSE if the Germans can get away with doing their own thing, so can we. And he DID tell young people to “make a mess” in their diocese and at 29 years of age, I definitely quality as someone who is first class at creating a mess! Don’t mock my age – when I mentioned years ago that I don’t like the way my birthday kept coming around every year, a friend said well just ignore them. Pick a number, your favourite age, and stick with that… I feel SOoooo young!

        May 28, 2021 at 12:13 am
      • RCAVictor

        Gabriel Syme,

        Your excellent post is actually a road map for the Luciferian destruction of the Church. To wit (pardon the caps):

        It is true that Francis represents authority in the Church.

        HE EXERCISES THE PERVERSION OF AUTHORITY, AS A “DICTATOR POPE.”

        Although, of course, the modern Church is extremely dysfunctional has has not had any real functioning authority for decades.

        IN THE LUCIFERIAN-OCCUPIED CHURCH, AUTHORITY IS ONLY USED TO PUNISH THOSE WHO RESIST THE REVOLUTION. REBELLION AGAINST PROPER AUTHORITY (TRADITION) IS ENCOURAGED AND FOMENTED, EITHER OPENLY OR BEHIND THE SCENES.

        If he tried to abrogate or stymie SP, all it would take would be for one bold Bishop (say, +Schneider) to point out that when the Vatican says XYZ, the German Bishops ignore it and simply do as they please.

        DOUBLE STANDARDS ARE THE STOCK-IN-TRADE OF THE LUCIFERIANS. EXPOSING THEM DOES NOT STOP THEM.

        And so, other Catholics will also do as they please. Furthermore, did Francis not specifically ask people to “make a mess”?

        MAKING A MESS, I.E. ANARCHY, IS THE MEANS TO TYRANNY, I.E. THE DICTATOR POPE.

        What could he say in response? Any come back would broadcast outrageous double standards which not even the most dim witted Catholic could deny!

        SEE MY COMMENT ON DOUBLE STANDARDS.

        May 28, 2021 at 4:24 pm
      • gabriel syme

        Editor,

        With my “panic” comments, i was not referring to you, this blog or any particular contributor. I meant the traditional Catholic world in general. Its only right the blog reports on news and discusses it. Apologies if that came across wrong.

        I just meant that, in my 9 years as a traditional Catholic, there have been regular “panics” about this, that and the other (ordaining married men, or women deacons, to give recent examples).

        And, more often than not, it comes to nothing. Previously I would become very stressed thanks to these panics, but nowadays I prefer to remain sanguine until the excrement and the fan actually meet (if they ever do).

        I am convinced that these “panics” are what has been responsible for turning my once jet black and flowing locks into patchy remnants of greying hair. Either that, or my dear wife is to blame. Probably both, to be honest!

        (I have been married for the same amount of years I have been a traditional Catholic: attending my first ever TLM – thanks to you and blogger Petrus – shortly before my novus ordo wedding ceremony).

        I have been thinking about this topic more and, in truth, I can only see that interfering with SP would be a major own goal for Francis and the modernists.

        When the British Government decided to intern Catholic men without trial in Northern Ireland, during “the troubles”, it was a major error and, rather than suppress Irish Republicanism, actively boosted it.

        Obviously there is no direct comparison of circumstances, but I am sure the effect of interfering with SP would have a similar result, of producing the direct opposite of what the authorities desired.

        Also, for all his faults, the pearl in the dung heap of Francis’ pontificate has been his tolerance of – and even kindness towards – the SSPX (continuing his track record of this from Buenos Aires). He would surely realise any move against SP would alienate the SSPX and undo what progress has been made under Popes Francis and Benedict.

        May 27, 2021 at 8:39 pm
      • editor

        Gabriel Syme,

        OK – I’ll waive my usual demand for tangible proof of contrition…

        https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vk6r7aRFrK8/V6qQVO1XGRI/AAAAAAAAGto/0_A2p9kjOBoWYAZLWdL3GG9DozDs3pkdgCLcB/s1600/Funny-minion-quotes-give-up-chocolate.jpg

        Seriously, I didn’t take your jibe comment personally 😀 I knew what you meant.

        So, we’re back on track to be the Best Ever Blogging Buddies. That’s the good news.

        The bad news is, time to panic… Those “rumours” have just been reported as fact 😀 We have a new [English Modernist] Prefect of the Congregation for Liturgy… And, as we know, he’s no fan of the TLM.
        https://www.ncregister.com/news/succeeding-cardinal-sarah-pope-francis-names-archbishop-arthur-roche-as-vatican-s-new-liturgy-chief

        May 27, 2021 at 8:50 pm
  • Faith of Our Fathers Reply

    Tried to copy the part about The Congregation taking part in the Mass and not standing Silent. My God it just shows how utterly Godless these Men are that they think we attend the TLMass and stand like dummies.I also like the Godless bit where it more or less says about useless Repetition of Prayer. Christ would whip these Pagan Godless Chancers from His Home and we should too if not Physically ,most certainly financially wherever possible do the same .

    May 26, 2021 at 7:27 pm
  • Miles Immaculatae Reply

    I am sceptical that the Holy See is planning to abrogate SP. I think this is just rumour. If the Vatican did abrogate it, it would make a martyr of Traditional Catholics and it would vindicate the FSSPX and folk would go over the Society and possibly not return to their dioceses. It would be an own goal for the modernists, IMHO. Also, +Roche is probably not much more modernist than +Sarah who is not actually a Traditional Catholic, rather he goes in for the so-called ‘hermeneutic of reform in continuity’ nonsense. The true hermeneutic of the Council is exactly the hermeneutic given it by Paul VI, John Paul II, and the bishops in communion with them. How arrogant of these amateur theologians and liturgists to assume that they know what the true hermeneutic of the Council is, and the second-guess what Paul VI and JPII really thought. The authentic interpretation of the Council is what we have now. I have seen the true hermeneutic with my own eyes, in Taize.

    May 27, 2021 at 1:53 pm
    • editor Reply

      MI,

      Pope Francis didn’t hesitate to “make martyrs” of those Franciscans of the Immaculate (FFI) do you remember? Here’s a refresher link…
      https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/07/31/the-vatican-and-the-franciscan-friars-of-the-immaculate/

      Nothing surprises me any more, so I’m awaiting an announcement about SP now that we have confirmation of the appointment of the new Prefect of the Congregation for Liturgy – Archbishop Roche.

      “Taize”? God help us all.

      May 27, 2021 at 9:04 pm
      • Miles Immaculatae

        Ed,

        I had actually forgotten about them, but you make a good point.

        Taize, you read correctly, and it was as horrific as you can imagine. God forgive me for going, when I knew better not to

        May 27, 2021 at 9:17 pm
  • Athanasius Reply

    Miles

    What we need to concentrate on first is a beautiful new church. Once we have a House of God worthy of the Traditional Catholic liturgy and Our Lord’s Presence, then maybe minds could be focussed on a choir to match. The priest superiors need to get their priorities right.

    May 27, 2021 at 11:07 pm
    • Miles Immaculatae Reply

      Athanasius,

      I believe that both aspirations can be realised concurrently. As you know, I sing in the choir, and I am confident of the liceity and worthiness of Missa Cantata at Saint Andrew’s, with reservation, chiefly, that the choir continue to improve over time, and I believe that this reservation is held by all members of the choir, and also by the Reverend Fathers Hannapier and Wall.

      To a degree, I share your belief in the importance of formal musical training for church singers.

      May 27, 2021 at 11:38 pm
      • editor

        MI,

        Your defence of the SSPX and the choir is admirable, and it is praiseworthy that your defence of the choir includes an intelligently objective recognition of the practical ways in which it may be improved in the future.

        Where we may differ is that, just as the Church does not permit seminarians to use the pulpit to practise preaching – that is a function of the ordained – so it is unhelpful to allow a choir to practise singing the Mass while they are still being trained.

        We are at Mass to be spiritually nourished and so, rather than having a choir-in-training singing throughout Mass, it would surely be more beneficial for all concerned to wait until that training is complete. I have to say, too, that the fact that the choir is positioned right at the front of the church is very distracting. I’ve never known that, except in modernist diocesan parishes. More than once – including last Sunday – the person sitting a little along from me in the pew stood up with the choir at one point, looked puzzled that I was not rising, soon realised her mistake and we both laughed, quickly recovering our composure, and if that’s not a pun, I don’t know what is 😀

        Following the advice of all the best psychologists, i.e. to finish on a positive note, the singing of the final hymn is always well done, and I remember last year – probably Corpus Christi – the choir sang Ecce Panis Angelorum, absolutely beautifully, during Communion. It was all too short, so next time, just keep singing it – please and thank you – until the end of the distribution of Holy Communion. 😀

        Signed The Wannabe Choir Mistress 😀

        May 28, 2021 at 12:02 am
      • Athanasius

        Miles

        I appreciate that you genuinely love the Gregorian chant in a sacred way, but you must understand, as a convert, that prior to Vatican II it was not customary in Catholic parishes to have regular sung Masses. These were largely reserved for larger churches and usually the last Mass on a Sunday. So culturally, this is not what the ordinary faithful remember from their younger days and it puts some people off the Mass, especially in that cold church in the winter when only the choir is active while most others are passive, distracted and, frankly, restless.

        If there is a desire to usurp the Scottish Catholic culture with that of the pre-Council French culture, which is really the spirit driving sung Masses, given the strong French influence in the SSPX, then let them wait at least until they are in a position to present beautiful singing in accordance with the wishes of the Popes. Badly sung Masses degrade the integrity of the Sacrifice and scandalise the faithful, as the Popes have warned, and it has happened in our church far too many times.

        Besides that, while a handful may prefer Gregorian chant, the majority prefer the silent adoration of Calvary at the foot of the Cross with Our Lord. If the faithful were asked for their opinion in the matter instead of having the sung Mass imposed, I am certain the vast majority would favour the low Mass for its ability to recollect the mind and heart at the foot of the Cross. I, for one, cannot concentrate on a single prayer with all that chant going on. In fact I can’t even have recourse ot my rosary because I need silence to pray properly.

        May 28, 2021 at 12:42 am
  • RCAVictor Reply

    Here, as a reference point, is Pope St. Pius X’s Motu Proprio, Tra Le Sollecitudini (“Instruction on Sacred Music”):

    https://adoremus.org/1903/11/tra-le-sollecitudini/

    May 28, 2021 at 4:28 pm
  • Lily Reply

    I’ve just come across this report and it looks like the Pope is definitely tightening the screws to make it more difficult for priests to offer the TLM. He takes a dig at the young priests who want to say that old Mass, calling them “rigid”. He is one very bad man, Pope Francis.
    https://www.ncregister.com/blog/extraordinary-form-document

    May 29, 2021 at 9:39 pm

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