Explaining the Dangers of the New Mass to Diocesan Catholics – But Will They Listen?

Explaining the Dangers of the New Mass to Diocesan Catholics – But Will They Listen?

Blogger, RCA Victor (USA) writes… 

“…I’d like to discuss how traditional Catholics (i.e. Catholics) can speak convincingly (not to mention charitably and patiently) to “mainstream” Catholics about why the Novus Ordo is a poverty-stricken, basically anti-Catholic liturgy that should be shunned. I know we just had a topic on the “Stated Purpose of the New Mass” etc., but my request has to do with how to broach the subject with non-traditionalists. Do we even speak the same language?”

Editor writes…

A very fair point.  It is so easy to get tied up in knots trying to explain why the new Mass is dangerous to the Faith, not least to people who have never known anything else.  Sometimes, going into the kind of details which Martin highlights in his excellent article  recently discussed, is (mis)interpreted as a busload of conspiracy theories.  How, then, do most of us broach the subject?  Here are some starter lines which you may vote up or down as you choose – and please add your own in the comments below…

  • I stopped attending the new Mass some years ago because I began to read up on it and…
  • When I started attending (or returned to attending) the traditional Latin Mass I found that…
  • What we need to remember is that we should attend the Mass which we know pleases God because…
  • It’s not about going to the Mass which we prefer because…

It would be good if bloggers could copy and finish any of the above starter lines to help us try to reach Catholics who have either never known the old Mass or who have forgotten what they were taught about it.  And, as I’ve already said, feel free to add your own starters.    Feel free, too, to dip into Martin’s article linked above if you wish to include a key fact or ten 😀

Comments (78)

  • westminsterfly Reply

    Having worked for a novus ordo religious order for years (although I had nothing to do with their religious life or sacraments) I can vouch that it is nigh on impossible to get through to these people. The situation was this – a group of lay people worked in an office doing the administrative work of the order, who lived and had a NO chapel nearby. A fair few of the lay staff were novus ordo Catholics, a couple lapsed, and some no religion at all. There were only two of us who attended the TLM. The attitude of the priests ranged from somewhat bemused to downright hostile. I was even called ‘a schismatic’ for attending a diocesan parish TLM by one of them. Yet the same priests would have no problem with ‘ecumenical’ gatherings, and I was horrified to see a picture taken at an event, which showed a couple of the priests ‘concelebrating’ with a ‘woman priest’. Obviously, she couldn’t ‘concelebrate’ but she was behind the altar and had her arms in the same position as the priests, just prior to the NO consecration, so it gave the impression to those ignorant or ill-instructed that she was concelebrating.
    We used to leave trad magazines around in the coffee room for the lay staff, but they were ignored. On some occasions they were deliberately removed. They just weren’t interested and thought we were oddballs. I gave up in the end.
    As for my geographical parish, I haven’t been there for nearly 30 years. I wouldn’t know anyone there now I don’t suppose. Firstly, in order to have any contact with them, I’d have to attend the NO Mass. I remember the hostility from some parishioners when I used to go there, and they found out I also attended the TLM on occasions. I don’t suppose much has changed.
    I hate to put a dampener on this topic, but there are real and almost insurmountable barriers that have to be faced. We are, in a sense, dealing with two different religions, and it’s very hard to overcome that. If the parish priest was half decent I might feel more inclined to try, but he’s awful.

    May 17, 2023 at 3:39 pm
    • RCAVictor Reply


      I think that’s it in a nutshell: we are dealing with two different religions. But that statement invariably meets with resentment and hostility – and we are then accused of being the different religion!

      May 17, 2023 at 4:06 pm
      • westminsterfly

        RCA Victor,
        Exactly. I think the phoenix will rise from the ashes in the future, but the way I think it will happen is that the NO church will finally implode, due to lack of vocations, congregations and money. Those of good will, will join pre-existing TLM communities and the Church will gradually be restored. Those who stick with the revolution until their deaths, will just have to answer to God for it. He will just them justly, as to how culpable they were. I honestly think that trying to convert NO congregations is a waste of time. I think it is far easier to interest agnostics and those searching for the truth, who haven’t yet been corrupted by post-conciliar Catholicism.

        May 18, 2023 at 10:06 am
  • westminsterfly Reply

    Sorry – I meant to sum up by saying – no, they won’t listen, they will just think you are a crank.

    May 17, 2023 at 3:43 pm
  • RCAVictor Reply

    This is not necessarily a starter line, or even a starter paragraph, but the first time I heard a Traditional Mass was in 2002, two years after I returned to the Church (it was, of course, an “Indult” Mass). I knew nothing about the Vatican II revolution at that point, but my reaction to this [Low] Mass was to sit there choking back tears during the entire liturgy, instinctively knowing, somehow, that this was the true Mass.

    I then began to wonder, “What is that other thing I’ve been attending these past two years?” So I started reading Church history, and after four years of vacillating between the “two forms of the Roman Rite” (yeah, right….) assisted exclusively at the TLM and never looked back…except with increasing dismay at the casual, irreverent barrenness of the [very aptly named] “Ordinary form.”

    I doubt that such an emotional reaction would be an appropriate conversation starter, and I also doubt that people who have remained in the Church during the revolution, having been conditioned to the Protestantized liturgy with which the Church has gravely wounded herself for the past 50+ years, would understand my reaction. All I can say is to speculate and hope that by the grace of God, modern Catholics in ever-increasing numbers will recognize what has been stolen from them and act accordingly. It will be difficult in most cases, I imagine, to give up a liturgy which celebrates self and embrace a liturgy that celebrates the mystery of Divine selflessness and self-denial.

    But perhaps the lack of mystery, especially as the world around us descends ever more rapidly into depravity, will be the very undoing of this ghastly crime known as the “Novus Ordo.” Hopefully, the Novus Ordo, which embraces and surrenders to the world, and reflects it, will eventually become as repulsive to modern Catholics as the world itself.

    May 17, 2023 at 3:50 pm
    • Faith of Our Fathers Reply

      Cannot really add much more to the already good comments except to say that it’s only 2 of us who attend our Thursday TLMass. Myself and am my Brother at least from my own Parish. As for asking others to go now I have stopped, it’s a waste of time especially where am from. In fact and again av shared this on here already. Good people of whom I would have called good Catholics seem to have a if not downright Hatred for the TLMass at least no time. One friend of mine of whom I tried to talk to about it said that Vatican 2 and the N.O. was the best thing that Happened to the Catholic Church. Of course the same Man believes that Francis is a Great Pope and O so humble a Man. He actually said to ME that I should do more reading of Francis Life . No thanks said I am depressed enough as it is .
      Thank God for Catholic Truth for I probably would not have gone to TLMass myself.

      May 18, 2023 at 5:40 pm
  • westminsterfly Reply

    RCA Victor,
    I have noticed that as the NO Mass becomes more secularised and banal, people seek mystery and the supernatural, but sadly, end up getting into false apparition lunacy like this: https://gloria.tv/post/78NERWNRiYVVCGxqaWM7xB1Wd – ironically, in this case, being pushed by a so-called ‘trad’ Catholic. God help us.

    May 17, 2023 at 4:00 pm
    • RCAVictor Reply


      Ah yes, more Taylor Marshall misinformation. This more than ever highlights the need for fortress-like catechesis from Traditional priests. I’m afraid there have been many snares laid for the Counter-revolution.

      May 17, 2023 at 4:04 pm
      • editor

        WF and RCA Victor, and anyone else who is out there…

        What is so amazing about Taylor Marshall taking to the airwaves to publicise these crackpot “apparitions” is that, at the same time, he thinks he can put himself forward as a potential President, as if the former will not impact hugely on the latter. Who wants a world leader who believes every Tom, Dick and Harriet who claims to have visitors from the supernatural world? Does he not realise that he will be subjected to intense media scrutiny and once his “day job” gets into the newspapers, his days as a potential presidential candidate are over, over… and out! Gimme a break!

        May 17, 2023 at 7:21 pm
    • westminsterfly Reply

      I couldn’t have put it better myself. He’s just an amateur blogger / bookseller, trying to pay off his mortgage on the backs of the faithful (if he hasn’t already) and none too bright about the current situation in the Church (if he’s listening to creeps like Xavier Reyes Ayral – check out some of Ayral’s YouTube videos with the other bookseller Christine Watkins – risible). It shows a total and utter lack of judgement – and also pride and disobedience to lawful ecclesiastical authority. John-Henry Westen is another culprit. The fact that Marshall’s bid for the presidency has overwhelmingly been met on Catholic blogs/websites with embarrassing silence, speaks volumes.

      May 17, 2023 at 7:47 pm
      • Lily


        I agree – it’s a joke to think that Taylor Marshall is standing for President of the USA. Can he really be serious?

        May 17, 2023 at 10:27 pm
  • RCAVictor Reply

    I would also recommend a little book to our readers, Catholics by Brian Moore, written in 1972. It was also made into a movie with Martin Sheen as the modern priest. I can post a YouTube link if anyone wants to watch it (there are two versions; the one on the Latin American channel contains scenes missing from the more common version).

    This book is very powerfully prophetic: after Vatican IV and on the verge of an ecumenical merging with Buddhists, Rome has become quite disturbed that an isolated monastery off the coast of Ireland is still celebrating the TLM, and that thousands of Catholics are traveling to this remote spot to hear it because it is the last TLM celebrated on earth. So the Provincial General of that monastery’s order sends a modern priest (the typical social justice warrior) to tell these renegade monks that they may no longer celebrate the TLM, or even have private confessions except under rare circumstances.

    In other words, this book eerily lays out exactly what we are experiencing under this pontificate: the suppression of Tradition under the false rationale of “unity.”

    Perhaps, getting back to this topic, we could ask our mainstream brethren why the Church, which rests on the twin pillars of Scripture and Tradition, is bent on destroying half of her foundation.

    May 17, 2023 at 4:01 pm
  • Leprechaun Reply

    Madame Editor,
    My first girlfriend was a Catholic and a nurse at a time when I was attending Anglican Services back in 1956 – i.e., pre- Vatican II. She had received a very thorough grounding at school in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and she hammered it home to me so aggressively and with such conviction that I had no choice but to undertake some serious research, culminating in my being received in 1958. One of the points she made was that the Catholic Church was the one, true Church and that all the other religions and varieties of Christianity had been started by mere men, and could not possibly be used as blueprints for gaining eternal life. We maintained superficial contact over the years until I rediscovered Tradition after 40 years in the Novus Ordo wilderness. I wrote to her attempting to lead her into Tradition, but I might as well have saved my breath to blow on my porridge!
    She had dabbled with being an “extra-ordinary” minister (but gave it up after a word in her ear from me), she was fully into (false) ecumenism and said how she had attended dozens of packed services in all shades of Christianity and would not hear a word about “the Catholic Church being the one, true Church” which she had insisted on previously. She said that she and her many friends were very happy as they were, that they all got along together very well and that if I kept on trying to explain about the great deception whereby nearly all Catholics were unthinkingly side-tracked into modernism, then she would terminate our exchanges.
    The lesson to be learned here is that there are none so blind as those who won’t see, and that if you, after delivering a handful of the most powerful arguments for opening their eyes to how they had been deceived, were rebuffed, then, in the words of St. Paul: “Shake the dust off your sandals and move on to those who will see” or words to that effect. in other words, try to explain, but if you are rebuffed, move on, and let them discover for themselves when they find themselves before the judgement seat.

    May 17, 2023 at 4:28 pm
    • Athanasius Reply


      As always, you post a concise comment that shows what Modernism does to Catholics souls. It robs them of their certainty in the truth.

      I hope you and Mrs. Leprechaun are well.

      May 17, 2023 at 11:36 pm
      • Leitourgos

        You are dead right about the robbing of the certainty of the faith, which is why so many souls follow Christ from afar, never wholly convinced from cradle to death-bed, and so incapable of conforming their lives to him.

        May 18, 2023 at 10:41 am
  • John Kearney Reply

    Let me say first that I attend the mainstream Church because there is no Latin Mass near me. And how I long for the Mass I attend, the NO one to be truly a sacred event. It is not the language I object to, but the desire to change it and the manipulative way they do so. If I say that the consecrated host is the body of Christ I am not challenged just ignored., so when the Body of Christ was moved from the centre of the altar to another room then Father says it is the right thing to do for we are the Body of Christ and everyone accepts such nonsense for Father is so likeable and we are blessed to have him. We only have confession for half an hour on a Saturday evening before Mass begins, so I ask for Mass and confession on Saturday morning but he is so busy, although we have another priest in the parish. Now what is the real trouble? We have people of the revolution still running the parish for there is no elected Parish Council, indeed there numbers grow as they appoint those who support them. Unsuitable catechists are appointed who keep the revolution going by dismissing sin and telling of a dark period when catholics trembled when they sinned for fear that God would strike them down. Of course what they achieved is that if you sin it is a small matter, and anyway the teachings of Christ no longer apply, only say God loves you and get over it. The Holy Spirit of course will be your moral guide and He will assure you that Adultery, Contraception, Abortion and Divorce are no longer taught by Jesus. They take great pride in having removed guilt from the Cnurch. What are they left with? Human Love built on our humanity, and they just want to share this common humanity with everyone else. They talk about a Kingdom of Christ but have no understanding that this requires the teaching of Christ “Alll AUTHORITY is given to me in Heaven and on Earth, go then to all nations baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to OBSERVE all I have commanded you, and I am with you always {meaning His Authority and his teachings} till the end of the world” Matthew 28. Of course their ecumenism means they are devoted to the Bible, but they only seem to know the passages they like to read.

    May 17, 2023 at 5:26 pm
    • Faith of Our Fathers Reply

      I attended an Ecumenical Service about 20 Years and even though I was only going to N.O. at the time knew it was wrong. Their was a Church of Scotland Woman Moderater who spoke from Her Bible. In one Sentence She would say God the Father then She would say God The Mother but never of course did She mention Our Lady. The Woman looked as demented as was the way She spoke. She was in a Catholic Church yet had Zero Respect for Our Faith. Never again did I nor will I attend one of these Protestant Services.

      May 18, 2023 at 6:15 pm
  • editor Reply


    How true – none so blind as those who will not see. That is, those who don’t WANT to see. Sad.

    May 17, 2023 at 7:22 pm
  • Chris Reply

    It absolutely can be done, the ordinary faithful in parishes can be won over to the true Mass of Ages.

    But to convince our brothers and sisters of the dangers of Novus Ordo, takes properly qualified and highly skilled comunicators with real God given charisma and personality.

    Sadly, if we are being honest, God has not blessed those of us here, on this particular forum, with those particular gifts

    May 17, 2023 at 10:02 pm
    • Lily Reply


      Do you know all the bloggers here? Why would you say that?

      May 17, 2023 at 10:26 pm
      • Chris

        With all due respect, surely it is self evident from the quality of the comments and the lack of any progress made?

        But let’s be positive, as I say, it can be done and hopefully, after this blog and apostolate closes, something new and better and more successful will come from the young people devoted to the TLM. Lets pray it will

        May 17, 2023 at 11:35 pm
      • editor


        Like you, I hope that “something new and better and more successful” [than this blog] will come along… And soon. Can’t wait.

        But, for now, where is YOUR “starter” – i.e. how do YOU encourage people to attend the TLM?

        The thread where you may, more appropriately, criticise this blog is helpfully entitled “Closure of the Catholic Truth Blog” so why not transfer your criticisms to that thread and concentrate on the topic here. I tend to delete off topic comments so I’m afraid I’ll be doing that from now on, if you continue your attacks on this thread. “A time and a place” and all that jazz…

        So, how do (or would) you encourage fellow Catholics to abandon the Bugnini Mass and attend the TLM?

        May 18, 2023 at 7:53 am
    • Athanasius Reply


      All that is required on both sides is the grace of God. Holy Zeal for the faith on the one who informs and good disposition of soul on the part of the hearer. Catholics who truly love the faith don’t need complicated discourses, they only need to be open to what best pleases God and sanctifies their soul. The problem today is not that the information is lacking. It’s not lacking. What is lacking is interest and that, sadly, is down to weak faith following decades of Modernist poisoning.

      May 17, 2023 at 11:33 pm
      • Chris

        I totally agree and I don’t dispute that but what I am struggling with is the idea that God would enlighten you and a very small number of others here, with the light of the true faith (But not everyone else in the Church, who you feel have fallen into apostasy).

        God then charges you and the others with the duty of evangelism but not does not imbue you with the competency, skills or the ability to achieve any success whatsoever. (I assume you do indeed see yourself as possessing a superior knowledge which others don’t have, based upon your writing and the fact that you call yourself Athanasius)

        Indeed, we seem very self-satisfied that it is the fault of everyone else for failing to hear our truth. We apportion no blame to self appointed evangelists who has been enlightened by God with revelation, commissioned but failed to win any converts.

        This is a very risky assumption IMO

        May 18, 2023 at 10:15 am
      • westminsterfly

        At Confirmation we are all given the duty to evangelise and be soldiers of Christ – not just those that frequent this blog. I take issue with your comment that no-one has been imbued with ‘competency, skills or ability’ – you simply aren’t in a position to judge. Just because Scotland (or anywhere else come to that) isn’t full to brimming with TLM churches and chapels isn’t a sign of the blog’s failure. There are many other elements at play, which you clearly haven’t considered. As for the blog, read some of the comments from people saying how sad they are that the blog is closing and how much it has helped their Faith. Also, as I said in a previous comment, I think it is a waste of time trying to salvage anything from the post-conciliar Church. It just has to run its course and the phoenix will rise from the ashes. As Our Lady told us at Quito in an ecclesiastically approved apparition, just when it looks like everything is lost, then the great restoration will take place. In the meantime, don’t knock the efforts of those who try to keep interest in the Faith alive.

        May 18, 2023 at 10:51 am
      • Athanasius


        You are, of course, free to hold this opinion about me and others on the blog, though I would suggest that it is a little presumptuous on your part to make such sweeping statements on the souls and motivation of people you don’t know. All I can do from my perspective is inform you that you are way off the mark.

        I said in a previous comment to you that I detect a level of hostility in your writing, which says more about your motivation than the people you accuse on this blog. This is the worst aspect of anonymous posting on social media platforms, it allows unwarranted attacks on others under the cloak of anonymity.

        My advice to you is that if you consider this blog to be full of self-righteous, self-satisfied, unqualified self-appointed evangelists, rather than informed Catholics trying to win others back to Tradition by the grace of God, then perhaps you should consider not reading the blog at all. In fact, if you are convinced of what you have written, then you are obliged for your soul’s sake to avoid this blog altogether. Coming on to post passive aggressive commentary on the people here is not supernaturally beneficial either to you or to the rest of us.

        May 18, 2023 at 11:55 am
      • Leitourgos


        I think you have to remember the nature of the beast we are dealing with. First, it is clerical in nature. The origin of the debacle of the Catholic Church that began in earnest in the second half of the twentieth century is quintessentially clerical, i.e. it is rooted in the thinking and writing of priests, religious, bishops and cardinals. To a great extent, it still is, although not much thinking or writing is going on anymore. Try to get the seat of power to change its mind is difficult in any walk of life; in the Church it is that much more difficult. Second, most of the laity are content just to play follow my leader, although more and more of them know that something is far wrong as their parishes stare closure in the face.

        I for one would be delighted if some bright young things—digital natives unlike me—were to take up the cudgel after CT closes. You would bring to it the gifts and sensibilities of your generation, and that is only as it should be. But what you would be foolish to forget is that a lay lady at the end of the 1990s saw with extreme clarity what many others would see only decades later or not at all. Not only, but, with the few means available to her, she fought back fearlessly when she could have been at home with her feet up. It takes guts to challenge men like Arch-Chancers Thomas J. Winning or Keith Patrick O’Brien. They wanted it to be all about them, but she insisted, rightly, that it ought to be all about Christ and his Church.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:09 pm
      • westminsterfly

        Very well said Leitourgos.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:25 pm
      • editor


        Thank you for your kind remarks about the early days of this apostolate but I have to give credit to the priest who persevered in persuading me to launch a blog; he would email and ring to put the case, and I eventually saw the error of my ways in resisting the suggestion. Then, voila! The Catholic Truth blog came into existence.

        I lost touch with him over time, and I sometimes wonder if he knows that we are closing down, so just in case he reads this, I must say a huge thank you… Thank you SO much for “twisting my arm” – all things considered, I’m pleased that you won the argument, and – anyway – my arm has fully recovered 😀

        May 18, 2023 at 5:46 pm
    • Petrus Reply


      I would simply direct your attention to the masterpiece written by Martin Blackshaw on the previous Mass thread. I don’t know where else on the blogosphere you would find such quality.

      Over the years, Athanasius, Westminster Fly and RCA Victor have dedicated many hours to producing high quality comments.

      May 18, 2023 at 9:02 am
      • Chris

        If it is a masterpiece then sadly its a masterpiece locked away in a vault, gathering dust, which nobody will ever see due to poor communication.

        I do not mean to be rude or cruel but the idea that we ‘did our bit’ or that we can all be self-satisfied with being in the right, or even the idea suggested here that the modernists will have to account for their failure to defend the old Mass before the seat of judgement, while we will all sail on through to Heaven, is a massive assumption.

        Can you honestly examine your conscience and say all your interactions (if not most) with fellow Catholics, have always been constructive, fruitful or charitable?

        Sorry but its now time to pass the baton onto younger, better communicators. Sometimes we need must have humility of heart.

        May 18, 2023 at 10:24 am
      • Cornelius


        The younger generation reporting! I am a young male student who finds this blog very informative. I have used it for a long time and I know it has helped me to learn about the faith. It is one of my main sources for theology.

        May 18, 2023 at 2:38 pm
      • Faith of Our Fathers

        Chris who do you think you are to say that we Believe we will sail into Heaven because we Believe in the True Mass of Ages. The exact opposite is why we do attend TLMass.
        After all its all N.O. Catholics who go direct to Heaven. Just attend a N.O. Requiem Mass and listen to whats spoken. As for us we stay where we are in Believe that The N.O. Mass is mostly a Protestant Service.
        How do you think that the So Called Catholic Higherarchy hate the TLMASS. It’s because most of Them wouldn’t be out of place in one of those Horrible Pride Things.

        May 19, 2023 at 8:06 am
      • Fidelis


        You can take comfort knowing that you are not the only young person who uses this blog to learn. I know that, for a fact. It is a terrific resources for us all, young and not-so-young!

        May 20, 2023 at 8:48 am
  • RCAVictor Reply

    I attend a Diocesan traditional parish – exclusively traditional. A couple of months ago I had a meeting with someone in our Curia about an article he wrote for the Diocesan newspaper. It was a very pleasant and positive meeting, and afterwards he walked me around the building and introduced me to practically the entire staff, while identifying me as a member of said traditional parish. When that information about me was imparted, I was received very warmly by all – which surprised me. I was half expecting a concealed “Oh, he’s one of those!”

    We’ve also had consistent visits from seminarians from a nearby diocese – not laity, I realize, but I wonder if there is a difference in perspective towards us between Novus Ordo priests and Novus Ordo laity.

    I also have to wonder how much of the communication gap is due to us, or to our behavior, or to the opinions posted by trad “keyboard warriors,” as the Pope calls them.

    May 17, 2023 at 10:03 pm
    • Lily Reply

      RCA Victor,

      The extremist types who call themselves “trad” or “rad trad” would put anyone off, that’s true. Also the people who think they’re superior who attend certain chapels would be off putting. Most ordinary traditional Catholics, no. We’re fine, LOL!

      May 17, 2023 at 10:24 pm
  • Leitourgos Reply

    I think that Athanasius touches on a very important point.

    Have you ever wondered, as I have, why, following Vatican II, Rome and the bishops across the West became less and less interested in imparting a solid catechetical formation to youth? If you pause to think about it, it is an enormity of the first order, especially given the fact that the idea of John XXIII in calling Vatican II was that the Church might explain herself better to the world. What sheer irony!

    But it is of a piece with what happened to the liturgy. It was to be ‘simplified’ and rendered in the vernacular that it might be better understood by the men and women of ‘today’, but when these same men and women of today started deserting it in droves (as happened pretty quickly), barely a soul batted an eyelid.

    The post-conciliar ‘reform’ of the Liturgy and catechesis in the name of popularity were two trojan horses welcomed into the citadel of the Church by two distinct groups. One, sincere, but severely misguided, proponents of reform; another, hellbent on destroying the Church in the West. A few wise men could see exactly what was going on and voiced their misgivings, but in the populist furor were not only ignored but told to shut up or be denounced as traitors.

    By now the damage has been done. The Church in the West now ostensibly bears the form of an ugly old woman, decrepit, out of touch, a cheerleader for mediocrity and error and all that is worldly, and who is at a loss to explain why the world, before whom she prostituted herself so wantonly, despises even her cheers and despises them utterly. Only the Mass of the Ages can restore her to her rightful, beautiful image which is that of the Blessed Virgin.

    Yesterday, chatting with a priest friend, it transpired that there will be a Mass on Saturday in the Scots College in Rome (Scotland’s only functioning seminary) as the very small community (about thirteen souls between staff and students) bids farewell to the current building and prepares to move into the Beda college as lodgers until something much smaller can be found for them. (The Beda is a college operated by the Bishops of England and Wales for adult vocations.) When was the current Scots College built? Paul VI inaugurated it in 1964, during Vatican II, i.e. not even sixty years ago. It has not lasted even a century. Now it is to be sold off and will become an old people’s home or flats or some such. It is truly an icon of the NO church. If the Bishops of Scotland were honest, they would be thinking of relocating the College to a disused telephone box, if there are such in Rome, such is the bright NO future into which they have shepherded their flocks.

    The people who go to the NO are people who go to the NO. That is the sort of thing they like. In my experience, there is no talking to them on theoretical level. But maybe—just maybe—they are beginning to see the writing on the wall. The look around them and what do they see but an ocean—well, a puddle really—of white hair. No young people, you see. They cannot fail to notice this. Maybe it will be this fact which will move their hearts. Wherever the Old Mass is given free reign, young people and families follow.

    May 18, 2023 at 9:19 am
    • Athanasius Reply


      Your wonderful comment says it all really.

      The final paragraph in particular explains why jobsworths like Archbishop Nolan have been set the task of suppressing the old Mass in parishes, whatever the cost. It is because it is attracting the young in droves back to the faith of their fathers.

      It is no accident that Traditional Catholic parishes and seminaries the world over are bursting with vocations while Modernist parishes diminish rapidly in numbers and Scots College closes down along with many other NO seminaries and religious houses around the globe, including all 5 seminaries in Scotland. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out the reason for this, but it does require the grace of God and a certain effort to know the truth.

      May 18, 2023 at 2:02 pm
    • RCAVictor Reply


      I think John XXIII’s opening speech at VII, calling for the Church to explain herself better, was a ruse, a bait-and-switch whose real purpose, as planned by the enemies of the Church embedded in the hierarchy, was to “open the windows” and let in sin, anarchy and destruction, not fresh air. I suppose the question is open as to whether the Pope really believed his own ruse, i.e. whether he had somehow fallen into this trap laid by said enemies and become, forgive me, their best useful idiot. (At this point I know Editor would remind me to give him the benefit of the doubt, so I will…)

      Be that as it may, the disappearance down the memory hole of “explaining herself better” proves, to me, that it was nothing but a ruse.

      (Another bait-and-switch feature of this accursed Council was ressourcement, the twin dung-hill of aggiornamento, supposedly a return to authoritative ancient sources that would revitalize the Faith. Hah: another ruse. The “sources” were actually Cranmer, and Martin Luther and his scrofulous colleagues.)

      Your closing paragraph is exemplified by the condition of a large NO parish a few blocks from our traditional parish. I’ve been told that there are several funerals per week at this parish. Meanwhile, our own parish, a small building, has babies, children, young adults and young married couples coming out of the woodwork.

      If the blind cannot see where the future lies, then I have concluded, after reading the various opinions on this thread, that we should, as Leprechaun reminded us, stop trying to proselytize, but just pray for them and be ourselves models of fidelity, humility and devotion. Even as we are ground under the heel of Cardinal Roche and his ilk.

      May 18, 2023 at 2:22 pm
      • Athanasius


        You’re right. When Pope John XXIII opened the windows of the Church to let in some fresh air, as he put it, a huricane entered and wrecked the House of God. It was this disaster that Paul VI made reference to when he declared that “through some fissure in the walls the smoke of Satan has entered the Church and set her on a path of auto-destruction.” He should have said “through some open window”!!

        The tragedy is that while they could see their “reform” going pear shaped early on, they seemed clueless on how to stop it. Also a bit of blindness, if you ask me. They were blinded to the fact that they unleashed the evil by their Modernist pride.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:28 pm
      • Leitourgos

        I would like to think that John XXIII was in good faith. But, even if he was, his misjudgement was of colossal proportions. He failed to call it right either inside the Church or outside. His Council would soon be hijacked from the Left; the world would soon yearn to wallow in the mud of the sexual revolution.

        The Church after WWII simply lost its nerve. Kennedy in the Whitehouse, Rock ‘n’ Roll, Hollywood, the space race … I could go on. The Church feared being left behind, and so it was a case, she thought—wrongly—of adapt or die, forgetting that the fount of her youth and relevancy is her fidelity to Christ.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:29 pm
      • Leitourgos


        John XXIII was not stupid, but Pius XII had the better mind. He could see all of this coming, and it took its toll on his bodily and mental health.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:38 pm
      • Leitourgos

        I said I would like to think that John XXIII was in good faith and, indeed, I do, but got some things terribly wrong. Bugnini had been banished under Pius XII, as had the notorious founder of the Legionaries of Christ; under John XXIII, both were brought back. Methinks Pope John was a trifle naive.

        May 18, 2023 at 3:43 pm
      • Athanasius


        You may recall that it was John XXIII who famously read the Third Secret of Fatima before burying it with observations about “prophets of doom”. He had the Council in mind at the time, thinking the future very bright, a “new Pentecost”, not realising that it would be the very vehicle of destruction foretold in the Third Secret unless Our Lady’s request was fulfilled.

        As for Bugnini, I don’t know if Pius XII banished him, though I have my doubts since Bugnini didn’t hold any place of prominance in the Church during his reign. John XXIII did banish him, however. He dismissed Bugnini from his Chair at the Lateran and stripped him of his secretaryship of the Council Preparatory Commission. This would seem to add weight to your assumption that John XXIII was more naive in relation to his Council than malicious. For example, this Pope insisted that Latin was to remain the language of the Mass and the Church and Archbishop Lefebvre assured us that John XXIII was liturgically sound, so I think it was a case of forget heaven’s message, my Council will fix everything. Well, we see where that has led!

        It should not be forgotten, in fairness, that a certain Fr. Dhanis was quite powerful in those days. He was the infamous anti-Fatima priest of great influence (a Jesuit, surprise, surprise) who fabricated the “Fatima 1, Fatima 2” theory, the latter including the Third Secret which he successfully suggested was made up in Sister Lucy’s pious imagination. Yes, he actually managed to get very senior people in the Church to buy into that lie. Naive, they most certainly were.

        May 18, 2023 at 7:45 pm
      • westminsterfly

        And yet Fr Dhanis SJ is the ONLY ‘theologian’ to merit a mention in the 2000 Vatican document ‘The Message of Fatima’. Speaks volumes.

        May 18, 2023 at 8:04 pm
      • Athanasius


        It does indeed speak volumes. That 2000 document reads like War & Peace, far too long for the 20 or so lines Sister Lucy wrote down. There is no question that the most important element of the Third Secret was left out of that screed, the part that refers to the apostasy.

        May 18, 2023 at 9:20 pm
      • Leitourgos


        Of course, it was John XXIII who banished Bugnini. My mistake.

        Do you have any more or Dhanis, S.J. The name is not new to me. I must have come across him somewhere, but I cannot for the life of me remember where.

        May 19, 2023 at 1:28 am
      • westminsterfly

        Fr Edoaud Dhanis SJ, was a modernist Belgian Jesuit theologian. His main claim to fame was his scuppering of the Fatima message. He basically divided it into two parts, as Athanasius said: – the original apparitions, and then what Sister Lucia had supposedly subsequently embellished. His work on Fatima probably did more damage to the Fatima message than any other person on earth. I believe it was him whispering in the ears of subsequent Popes that stopped the full publication of the Secret, as the Popes would have been told by Dhanis – either directly or through his writings – that the later revelations of Sister Lucia had basically been imagined by her. It continues to inform the Vatican even to this day – hence his being the only theologian mentioned in the 2000 Vatican document. The whole case is fully documented in the first volume of Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite’s book ‘The Whole Truth About Fatima’. https://fatima.machado-family.com (See Volume I ‘Science and the Facts’ / Part Two: The Critical Study / Chapter 1 – The Modernist Solution of Father Dhanis.)
        Fr Edouard Dhanis was professor of theology at the University of Louvain from 1933 to 1949, then at the Gregorian University of Rome from 1949 to 1971. He was the rector of the latter from 1963 to 1966. He was born in 1902 (so would have only been 15 when Fatima happened) and died in Rome in 1978.
        The Fatima Centre sums up his flawed work in one paragraph:
        “Father Dhanis refused to study the official Fatima archives or consult other documents made available to him by the Bishop of Leiria. He also refused to go to the Carmel of Coimbra, to interrogate Sister Lucy himself. Finally, when his thesis on Fatima was refuted numerous times by reputable Fatima experts, he evaded the important issues and would not address their main arguments, so that he would not have to withdraw his false thesis. To put it in a nutshell, Father Dhanis refused to examine the truth of the matter; he was neither a scholar nor intellectually honest.”
        (Then) Cardinal Ratzinger later referred to him as an ’eminent scholar’ which speaks volumes about Ratzinger’s supposed ‘orthodoxy’.

        May 19, 2023 at 9:44 am
      • Athanasius


        I don’t think I can add anything to the wonderful summation westminsterfly has provided on Fr. Dhanis. I confirm everything he has written in that concise post, including that Joseph Ratzinger remained a Modernist up to his death, though more moderate than in his earlier years during the Council.

        May 19, 2023 at 12:33 pm
      • Leitourgos

        Sorry to be so blunt, but the simple fact that he was a Jesuit promoted to such exalted positions in the times in which he lived makes him highly suspicious, imho. Sister Lucy certainly set the cat amongst the secular humanist pigeons, and she paid the price. She was a living martyr, because the Bishop of Rome, after Pius XII, would not listen.

        May 19, 2023 at 9:30 pm
      • Athanasius


        I agree about the Jesuits. That Order should have been suppressed by Pope St. Pius X at the turn of the 20th century. The main theoreticians and peddlers of Modernism in the early days were Jesuits. How tragically ironic that the Order which was a bullwark against Protestantism in the 16th century, should become host to so many heretics by the 20th. This is typical of Lucifer’s vengeance on those nations and religious orders which were once so staunchly Catholic.

        May 19, 2023 at 10:41 pm
  • Petrus Reply


    No, my interactions with other Catholics haven’t always been charitable – that’s fallen human nature for you. As for “fruitful” – we may never know the fruits of our labour in this world.

    May 18, 2023 at 11:06 am
    • Athanasius Reply


      I can say the same for myself and second your observation about the fruits of our labours, which are entirely dependent on God and frequently known only to Him. We do our duty as best we can and leave the rest to God.

      It is worth pointing out, however, that sometimes God does allow us the satisfaction of knowing how our efforts have helped souls. There are people who make no bones about their return to the faith or to Tradition being down to things they read on this blog, or some other Traditional website. Even one soul coming back to the faith would make all the effort worth while, bearing in mind that each individual soul is more precious in God’s sight than the whole of creation.

      May 18, 2023 at 2:10 pm
      • Petrus


        I have no doubt in my mind that the Catholic Truth newsletter and this blog guided me to the Traditional Mass. I also know there have been others.

        May 19, 2023 at 8:07 am
    • Chris Reply

      Indeed, or the bitter fruits of our sins? How many times did our tone and behavior turn others off the faith?
      We also need to account for this too.

      May 18, 2023 at 4:09 pm
      • editor

        Less of the “our sins” – you attend to correcting your own sins and leave the rest of us to deal with ourselves. Please and thank you. A more judgmental person I’ve seldom encountered. As other(s) have said, if you really believe all that you say about “this blog” (which is usually code for my unworthy self 😀 ) then you really ought not to read it.

        A bit like the emailer who thinks I’m under Satan’s influence but wants to keep in touch with me – DUH!

        May 18, 2023 at 4:22 pm
  • RCAVictor Reply


    …what I am struggling with is the idea that God would enlighten you and a very small number of others here, with the light of the true faith (But not everyone else in the Church, who you feel have fallen into apostasy). God then charges you and the others with the duty of evangelism but not does not imbue you with the competency, skills or the ability to achieve any success whatsoever. (I assume you do indeed see yourself as possessing a superior knowledge which others don’t have, based upon your writing and the fact that you call yourself Athanasius)

    You have a troubling habit of turning positives into negatives, and misusing words. For example:

    1. We think God has “enlightened” us “with the light of the true faith.” No, we don’t wear “I’ve been enlightened” buttons. Rather, we thank God that we have not been deceived by the wiles and snares of the enemy and his tools, the modernists. Why haven’t we been deceived? Not because of some special superior intellectual power or discernment, but because we have familiarized ourselves with the Sacred Deposit of Faith, which warns us against the very things that are happening now. We remember what has been handed down to us, and refuse to cast it aside as an outdated museum piece, as the modernists would have us do. Any Catholic could do the same.

    2. We feel that NO Catholics have “fallen into apostasy.” Not exactly: they have been led into it by wolves in sheep’s clothing. But let’s address the apostasy itself: how many NO Catholics attend Mass every Sunday? How many believe in the Real Presence? How many use contraceptives? How many have had abortions? How many vote for politicians who are militant advocates of abortion? How many think that homosexuality is perfectly acceptable?

    You can look up those statistics, and others, for yourself, and thus prove to yourself that it is not our mere belief that the majority of NO Catholics have apostatized. It is a fact.

    3. We don’t have the “competency” etc. to evangelize. You need to define your terms. What is a competent evangelist? How is his competency demonstrated? How is his success demonstrated? And most importantly, how does God measure his success?

    (And who in particular would you consider to be a competent, successful evangelist?)

    4. Your implication that St. Athanasius considered himself to possess superior knowledge is an outright insult to that glorious saint. He did not consider himself superior in any way; in fact, the human disorder of superiority, so well demonstrated by the arrogant, devious Arians, was what he fought against. He fought them with humility, faith and truth, and endured countless suffering because of his fidelity.

    As for our blogger Athanasius, your attempt to impute this sense of “superiority” to him because of his blogger name is ridiculous. Athanasius has armed himself with that very same Deposit of Faith as did that Father of the Church, and with an equal sense of urgency and zeal, since truly it can be said, as of old, that the modernists have the buildings, but we have the Faith. Or would you like to dispute the fact that traditionalists (aka Catholics) are but a tiny percentage of today’s Catholic laity? A true remnant.

    (Let me also point out that to claim that “we have the Faith” is not a statement born of a sense of superiority [or vainglory]. It is a statement of humble gratitude, much as a sailor feels when he has been washed up on shore after a shipwreck, only to find that a mere handful of his shipmates, out of hundreds, have been likewise preserved.)

    I reject your implication that the efforts of this blog are futile, and I reject the reasoning by which you have arrived at that conclusion. But I feel compelled to ask you: are you afraid to quote the Magisterial teachings of the Church, and all the warnings of faithful Popes, because you think you might be seen as a snob with a superiority complex? Are you afraid of being accused of “being more Catholic than the Pope”?

    I hope not.

    May 18, 2023 at 3:47 pm
    • Athanasius Reply


      Very well put indeed. But I doubt Chris will rise to the challenge you put before him and respond with equal clarity. Thus far, his expressed observations of the blog and its contributors has been negative and insulting. He hints at a better alternative but seems to have no clue as to what it will be or how it will be achieved. I think it may be another case, as we have all witnessed over the years, of hit and run!

      May 18, 2023 at 8:02 pm
      • Lily


        I agree completely. I have been watching this unpleasant person all through and tried not to respond to him but he is really something else. Nobody here has risen to the bait everyone has tolerated him so I hope I’m forgiven for giving him a piece of my mind. It’s a very small piece though, if he only knew, LOL!

        May 18, 2023 at 9:53 pm
  • Chris Reply

    Sadly, the responses to any minor challenge or mild criticism, proves my point absolutely perfectly…

    Hyper sensitive.
    No tolerating dissent
    Too defensive
    Too confrontational
    Far to easily rattled
    straight to personalised ad hominem

    And worst of all…’if you don’t like it go away’. This approach is exactly why it’s all been so overwhelmingly unsuccessful in changing hearts and minds.

    Sorry but this is not the way of conversion or evangelism, the time has come to simply time to close down.

    May 18, 2023 at 8:34 pm
    • Lily Reply


      You are a troll. I’m just amazed that you are spending your time being so nasty here. You are the only person who thinks this blog is “unsuccessful” whatever that means. Your behaviour here smacks of jealousy.

      May 18, 2023 at 9:31 pm
    • Laura Reply


      You are really dishonest. You’ve been given plenty of examples of the FACT that this blog had changed hearts and minds but you are so full of hatred that you won’t admit it. I pity you, I really do, and I am praying for a change of mind and heart to take place in YOU.

      May 18, 2023 at 9:59 pm
    • Athanasius Reply


      “Minor challenge or mild criticism”? If that’s how you describe your contributions here thus far then I would have to conclude that you are either disingenuous or that your IQ is around the same level as the average house plant. But of course your IQ is not at such a low level, so you must be disingenuous.

      I don’t believe for a second that you came on to this blog for constructive Catholic debate but rather with an agenda and ill intent. You are more to be pittied than scorned, youy really are.

      May 18, 2023 at 10:01 pm
      • Fidelis


        I think you are wrong about his IQ – any house plant would win in a competition, LOL!

        You are right about his ill intent, that’s for sure. I’ve been popping in and out for a couple of days and I’ve been appalled at this new blogger or should that be troll’s rudeness. He has his agenda, that’s for sure, God help him.

        May 18, 2023 at 10:11 pm
      • editor


        I think it is very clear that Chris is a troll, here to cause trouble. I realised that early on, and put him into moderation so that I could check his comments and only approve and release them if they were serious comments, not the rantings of someone who is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

        However the problem with that was that when others sought, in all charity, to correct him by replying to his nonsense, their comments went into moderation as well. As soon as the name of the moderated nuisance is used, that comment disappears into moderation and languishes there until I release it.

        Since I knew I would be away from my computer for chunks of today, I decided to remove his name from moderation so that the excellent comments from Athanasius, WF, RCA Victor, Petrus, and anyone else minded to have a go at educating him, would not be stuck in moderation. And thus I released the whirlwind 😀

        Since he has shown no sign of growing up or moving forward or whatever you say about someone who appears to be a few bricks short of a bungalow, I have now returned him to moderation, so anyone who decides to respond to any of his nonsense from now on, please avoid using his name in your comment. “Hey you!” will do fine!

        Sincere thanks to those who have tried to help him. Mission impossible, though, so enjoy a well-earned rest 😀

        May 18, 2023 at 10:24 pm
  • Leitourgos Reply


    You remind me of … me. I too used to be very worried about tone, but it is secondary, and too much attention to it means missng the point and failing to join up the dots.

    Some considerations, not in any particular order.

    Some are called to sow, others to reap, some to do both. It follows that sowers will not necessarily reap the same seed that they have sown. I have always considered the CT apostolate to be an exercise in sowing.

    The minimum requirement for evangelization is baptism. Indeed, to share the Good News about Christ is a duty of the baptized.

    The NO and all that goes with it have caused great damage in the Church. That only a few can see this is hardly surprising. So it has ever been, all the way back, at least, to the Israelites who danced around the golden calf while Moses was on Mount Sinai.

    Most of us here do not consider ourselves Superior, especially from a moral point of view. But we have tried to think long and hard about the issues over many years. Added to which, of course, not a few of us have suffered for the courage of our convictions which does tend to alter tone, sometimes even unconsciously.

    People attend the NO for many reasons. It is, after all, mainstream Catholic liturgy. In my experience, theoretical approaches to them not only fail, but tend to make them more hardened. But I must say that I have noticed a change in those who are becoming conscious of the parlous demographics around the NO. People do not want to feel that they are on a sinking ship.

    One of the sad things about Pope Francis pushing the Old Mass into the ghetto is that NO Catholics will increasingly fail to realize that there is an alternative. That this is a deliberate policy is very sad indeed and speaks to shepherds far more interested in the party line than in the good of souls.

    May 19, 2023 at 2:51 am
  • Leitourgos Reply

    On the question of tone, would a more conciliatory CT have made more of an impact?

    I have to say that I for one very much doubt it. This is not, after all, a discussion over whether butter or margarine gives the better scones. It is about revealed Truth and it is about the life of the soul.

    What CT lacked in tone on occasion was more than compensated by its forthright attitude to questions of truth. Not only, but CT, in marked contrast to the wider press, has always remained intellectually honest and scrupulously so.

    I just wonder if, when the question of tone becomes overriding, it is not the sign of a ‘foot in both camps’ mindset, although this is not a criticism of anyone in particular.

    May 19, 2023 at 3:14 am
    • editor Reply


      I hope the humour in your concluding paragraph is not lost on the bloggers… Subtle is, as subtle does, so to speak 😀

      May 19, 2023 at 12:58 pm
  • Petrus Reply

    I never pay much attention to criticisms of tone. In written language, tone is partly an interpretation on the part of the reader.

    May 19, 2023 at 8:37 am
  • Athanasius Reply


    I tend to find that those who complain about the tone of others, when they speak the truth directly, are people of troubled conscience. It reminds me of those pharisees who said to Our Lord “do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan and hast a devil…”

    I wonder what they would have said in the day had they been present when Our Lord overturned the tables of the money changers, saying “My house is a house of prayer and you have turned it into a den of thieves…” There is little doubt that these would have dismissed the truth owing to the tone of the one who delivered it.

    Sometimes we have to be forthright in tone, especially when it comes to describing the destruction visited on the Church and souls by the Conciliar revolutionaries. Just as in Our Lord’s day, these have turned the House of God into a den of thieves with the exception that on this occasion the robbery is global and supernatural.

    May 19, 2023 at 12:56 pm
    • editor Reply


      Well said – and in addition we have Our Lord’s likely less than friendly tone (to put it mildly) when he called Herod “that fox”. (Luke 13:32)

      Yip… We can’t always be “nice” although, as the old saying goes, it IS “nice to be nice, and not to be nasty.” Profound, or what? 😀

      May 19, 2023 at 1:02 pm
      • Athanasius


        Profound indeed, except for trolls who think it nice to be nasty!

        May 19, 2023 at 1:45 pm
  • westminsterfly Reply

    What with Chris, and some of the other persistent shockers CT has had over the years, there’s going to be a lot of trolls in therapy when this blog closes . . . how will they vent their spleens in future? Start looking for a good shrink now, guys (and gals)!

    May 19, 2023 at 3:46 pm
    • Athanasius Reply


      A shrink or an exorcist!

      May 19, 2023 at 7:23 pm
      • westminsterfly

        LOL! Yes, quite. Exorcism. Assuming they have any faith . . .

        May 19, 2023 at 9:04 pm
    • Chris Reply

      Comment deleted – nasty.

      May 19, 2023 at 11:59 pm
      • Fidelis

        Some people just never learn!

        May 20, 2023 at 8:47 am
      • westminsterfly

        Sadly, they do learn. They learn how to wind people up and then use that ‘skill’ to satisfy their own warped desires. It is a spiritual or mental malady of some kind.

        May 20, 2023 at 10:18 am

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